Bicoastal Media = Crap MP3 Audio Files

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Author: Radioxpert
Saturday, February 07, 2009 - 1:22 am
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In recent months, I've been noticing some nasty sounding MP3 audio files on 104.7 KDUK, and 106.3 KLOO-FM. What's wrong with the programmers at Bicoastal?

On a recent trip to the coast, I noticed that Bicoastal's "Power 96.3" KFMI (Eureka) is drowning in MP3 audio garbage. There is no excuse for this!

Author: 1lossir
Saturday, February 07, 2009 - 8:26 am
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Are you talking about songs or commericals? If it's the spots - frequenty the AE won't insist on getting quality audio dubs because they're afraid to lose the buy.

The pro audio sound cards with hardware MPEG decoders (i.e. AudioScience) actually do a pretty good job of making low bitrate MP3s sound pretty darn good.

Author: Missing_kskd
Saturday, February 07, 2009 - 11:34 am
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I can understand the production cost -vs- getting the revenue deal. Frankly, there is a case for the lower quality being a stand out too. Could be used deliberately.

(come on, that's real --even if we cringe!)

But, it's just not that hard to get good audio! Spending a ton on pro quality gear, only to send it shit, just makes no sense at all.

By the way, the decode is really a software deal. Once you've done that transform, you've got straight up audio, meaning the pro-quality card helps with that, but the core "makes it sound good" boils down to software.

All you really pay for is the technical specifications necessary to play ball with the other pro gear. The decode isn't a factor in that.

So, what's the deal with the audio. It's not like there are a ton of songs in regular rotation. Can't a library be built, and access granted to those people who need it? At the network speeds of today, it's possible to fill up a station library in a few hours tops!

Get the list, and just go get the necessary tunes, done!

Worst case means ripping a few from analog sources. That takes a little time, but if there were a library, it would be a non-issue.

Aren't a lot of source files in mp2 anyway? That's larger, of course, but it sounds just fine.

Author: 1lossir
Saturday, February 07, 2009 - 11:55 am
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>>By the way, the decode is really a software deal. Once you've done that transform, you've got straight up audio, meaning the pro-quality card helps with that, but the core "makes it sound good" boils down to software.<<

Sort of.

The "decode" in pro cards is done on the card using its on board DSPs and firmware code - not in the operating system. So while it is software driven - the OS (and any software codecs for that matter) has nothing to do with the decoding process.

You can find out if your cards have hardware decoding by simply disabling any OS-based codec then try to play compressed audio through the card. If the card has on-board decoding the audio will play fine and if not you'll see an error message.

Author: Notalent
Saturday, February 07, 2009 - 12:23 pm
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It is probably more a matter of ignorance on the part of those inputting the songs rather than cost.

That happens in markets of all size.

Author: Robin_mitchell
Saturday, February 07, 2009 - 2:41 pm
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I experienced the mp3 audio problem first hand. Whenever one of those tunes would play, it would sound like the station had a signal problem...that you were hearing audio in a fringe reception area.

When you look at the file sizes, you see that much less space is being taken up. The simplified explanation I was given is: every "nth" bit of the original audio is available inthe mp3 format. When listening, the human ear does not hear what is missing.

However, when the audio is being fed down line into an Omnia...the box is so fast is manufactures artifacts trying to find the missing bit...causing a squelch type affect.

Author: Hwidsten
Saturday, February 07, 2009 - 3:55 pm
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That's right, Robin. mp3 should never have been used for broadcast, and wouldn't have been if the hard drive storage had not been so expensive and undependable in the beginning. We had to put cooling fans on the hard drives to keep our first Scott system on the air. Now it isn't a problem, but a lot of stuff got dubbed into systems in mp3. When we put in our new SS32, we bought a complete library that was 44.1. We produce everything linear at 44.1 and sometimes refuse commerical material that sounds bad in mp3.

Author: Roger
Saturday, February 07, 2009 - 4:35 pm
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Bicoastal Media = Crap

shhhhh.... you'll hurt their feelings.

Author: Chris_taylor
Saturday, February 07, 2009 - 5:19 pm
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What I like about what Pro Tools offers is after I have produced a finished commercial I have several options concerning converting the file. With any new client I ask what format they want their converted file to be in. For broadcasting it can vary. Converting an mp3 I typically go with 44.1 sample rate, mono or stereo and either 128 or 192 bite rate.

I haven't had too many issues with my mp3s. It really starts in the production room. If you start off the master with lousy audio it's really hard to correct it even with good software. Although I have been surprised by some of the analogue stuff I've converted into digital through Pro Tools.

Author: Theedger
Sunday, February 08, 2009 - 11:28 pm
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320kbps for commercials. No compression for music. No exceptions. Any programmer that doesn't know that MP3's destroy the music shouldn't be programming. That includes managers who push the format on monkey pd's.

Author: Radioxpert
Monday, February 09, 2009 - 1:20 am
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Theedger is absolutely correct!

I have offered to replace any bad audio file. Bicoastal programmers have not yet responded. On 104.7 KDUK, Kanye West "Heartless" and Ne-yo "Mad" are crap MP3 files.

In Eureka, Power 96.3 is about 90% audio garbage, during local programming. The songs sound like they were dubbed from YouTube or MySpace. Is the PD deaf, or just a complete moron?

Author: Notalent
Monday, February 09, 2009 - 7:19 am
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You'd be surprised how must resistance there is among programmers and their minions to getting off the mp3 horse.

"its just easier" is the common reason given.

it would be a shocker if one actually had to work a little to make their station sound good.

apparently somewhere along the line the term "broadcast quality" lost all of its meaning.

Author: Chris_taylor
Monday, February 09, 2009 - 10:36 am
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I haven't gone over 192kbps for commercials for the mere fact no one has given me any negative feedback on what I have produced.

I get an earful from different modes of thought when it comes to bit rate and compression. There is no real standard due to so many compatibility issues.

Author: Roger
Monday, February 09, 2009 - 12:01 pm
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...deaf, or just a complete moron.....

Probably lacking passion and interest.

no desire to improve the presentation. no incentive to improve the presentation.

Many PDs today are nothing more than station babysitters. Do what you are told to do, don't offer to do any more than your job description calls for, implement station policies and directives. Don't suggest improvements considered outside of your job category.

Sadly, many of us have toiled under these environments. Download the music sent by HQ.

Might find someone who cares enough to UPGRADE the library on their own time, but bet they won't let management know they "TWEAKED" the quality on their own.

Author: Newflyer
Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 4:25 am
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Two thoughts on file formats being broadcast (I have no idea if either are anywhere near true, and no way to test, just "throwing up" the ideas):

1. Someone in a corporate HQ (or some other "think tank") figured out that MP3 files take less space, and/or decided that MP3s are the format that their listeners use (so they should also be using them), or there's some other edict that says what audio file format is used and how it's to be used that wasn't designed by radiophiles/audio engineers/etc.

2. The less-than-CD-quality files are being dictated by the recording industry, who's still concerned that someone is recording radio stations to get "free" music.

Author: Notalent
Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 7:52 am
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Newflyer,,, probably not the case

The labels send out MP3's cause its easy. no mail server size limitation issues etc.

Music directors like MP3's cause its easy. no need to fuss with FTP sites and such.

Programmers dont have to make their label rep go through a bunch of hoops to deliver a large size .wav file when they've already delivered a bulk emailing of the mp3.

Most people even in radio don't know that there are different rates for an MP3! It's a very common format and sounds great in the earbuds.

I'd say its ignorance and a bit of slacker attitude. "Its here, its free, its easy, why not?"

Author: Radio_it_pro
Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 8:21 am
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Wow, you guys really are clueless and not in the industry at all. The labels all send full wave files to several new music servers, and then those files are downloaded and dumped into the servers.

You ever thought that maybe it's not the source file, but perhaps the STL?

Go back to your guesses and speculation.

Author: Roger
Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 8:32 am
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who you calling you guys?

The label might send'em full wave, but when VP programming for the chain has the MD convert everything to mp3 and then sent out to the stations, you get what they send. Some of them are crap. Of course now that the 5 stations are simulcast, that isn't so much an issue

Author: Notalent
Tuesday, February 10, 2009 - 8:36 am
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The STL doesn't make one song sound worse than another genius

However the artifacts of any compressed file will be magnified if it goes through another data compression device... such as a data compressed STL... a data compressed storage system at the station like nexgen running mpeg layer 2 etc... IBOC exciters make compressed audio files trashy sounding... I've seen the production guy at a station input songs using 10db of limiting in protools because he thought that was somehow better than actually just setting the levels correctly!!

many non current based formats buy libraries some of which are very poor in quality, a whole library can arrive on one DVD!!

But generally speaking as someone who is deeply in the industry, YES it is the source file most of the time. garbage in garbage out.

Author: Radioxpert
Monday, April 13, 2009 - 2:15 am
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While listening to KDUK, I heard a very low quality file for Britney Spears "Circus" which must be replaced!

Author: Randy_in_eugene
Monday, April 13, 2009 - 11:44 pm
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In the case of Britney, maybe the crap audio just comes with the territory.

Author: Motozak2
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 1:47 pm
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Definitely.

You have to consider the source. Garbage in, garbage out........... ;o)

Author: Radioxpert
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 6:00 pm
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All joking aside, Valerie Steele (KDUK's PD) needs to make sure that she's putting only WAV files on the air!

Author: Newflyer
Tuesday, April 14, 2009 - 8:06 pm
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Whenever any station I'm listening to plays B.S., I immediately turn it off! Her entire catalog is on my list of "Instant Tune-Out 'songs!'"

Author: Radioxpert
Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 5:04 am
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Who is programming 101.5 KFLY? They are playing a horribly low quality copy of Kings Of Leon "Sex On Fire." Speaking of fire, whoever is allowing that to play, should be fired.

Author: Roger
Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 5:50 am
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The simple solution is just cart up that record and be done with it!

Author: Dberichon
Saturday, May 02, 2009 - 4:13 pm
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If storage is an issue today, why don't folks use FLAC? Half the size of Wav files, but lossless. It's a bit for bit copy of what you put in.

Internet connections are fast enough today that downloading a 20 meg file isn't that big of a deal anymore.

Author: 1lossir
Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 5:50 am
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>>If storage is an issue today, why don't folks use FLAC? Half the size of Wav files, but lossless. It's a bit for bit copy of what you put in. <<

Not supported by most automation systems.

Author: Greg_charles
Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 11:24 am
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If done right, I don't think there should be an issue between MP3 and .wav for broadcast.

Given a good acoustical audio environment with high end monitors and the proper audio...often meaning the reverb tails, most people can detect the difference. But how often today does that occur? Of course bit rates matter, but so do several other factors.

I see the whole issue from a broader perspective. From a technical standpoint, music has been cheapened. From a commercial standpoint, many expect music for free. Bottom line is people don't value music like in the 1970's when you dimmed the lights, sat in the middle couch, and listened to an "album" while reading the liner notes.

In the 1980's the first generation of AD/DA converters were horrible, which led to the whole "digitally harsh" sound and loss of analog "warmth." Phillips and Sony should have just waited a bit later for 24 bits instead of 16 bits but oil prices were up and vinyl sales were flat so they didn't wait.

In the 1990's digital limiters made it possible to make CD's louder than the competition which led to the current Loudness War. The result is commercial music with less dynamics, often averaging around -9dbRMS.

I'm told that when running "radio ready" pop CDs through an Optimod it can actually have the reverse effect of making the music material more quiet!

For anyone who desires more information, a good source is from Mastering Engineers, and Bob Katz website is very good.

http://www.digido.com/audiofaq.html

Author: Roger
Sunday, May 03, 2009 - 2:13 pm
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Hey D, how's life in the floodplain of Centralia?


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