Question: What will happen to the VH...

Feedback.pdxradio.com message board: Archives: Portland radio archives: 2008: Oct, Nov, Dec -- 2008: Question: What will happen to the VHF channels in February 2009?
Author: Radio_lady
Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 2:26 pm
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

I've been on-air as talent since 1957, but not so much into the engineering features of radio and TV.

Perhaps you can answer this question -- I have a couple of shower radios that get AM, FM, and the lower channels (2 - 12) for weather and TV audio.

What will happen to those channels after the digital changeover? Will there be other sound on them or just noise?

Thanks for any answers you can provide!

Ellen Kimball
(Currently reviewing theater and film on KGW.com)

http://ellenkimball.blogspot.com

Author: Jr_tech
Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 2:37 pm
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

Sorry, the short answer is just noise :-(

In some areas where Low power or translator TV stations operate on VHF channels these stations may be heard, if they are strong enough. These stations are not bound by the same deadline.

Perhaps a new generation of portable radios that decode audio from the digital TV channels will emerge...I have not seen any yet.

No more CH 6 audio on the low end of the FM dial either! :-(

AM, FM and weather band on your radios will still function properly...3 out of 4 ain't bad.

Author: Motozak2
Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 2:56 pm
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

I seem to remember reading somewhere that KOXI-CA (or one of WatchTV's many programmes) will be leaving channel 20 and starting an NTSC transmission on channel 6 sometime next year, since KOIN's ATSC reportedly will continue on UHF.....I think I read that on this board.

Or did I imagine it?
*scratches head*

Author: Jr_tech
Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 3:26 pm
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

Indeed, they have submitted an application:

http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/tvq?list=0&facid=71080

If I were a betting person, I would put my money on "denied". At the most, it would be only a short term situation, until all analog TV stations must change... Why bother?

Author: Radio_lady
Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 3:36 pm
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

Thanks so much for your technical expertise!

It's pretty much what I expected. The end of analog TV signal transmission as we knew it.

One of the radios was won in a Christmas party exchange at Lojack, Inc. in Dedham, Mass., where I was the Radio Advertising Manager. That was in 1995!

Here's where I started in TV in Florida (1957):

http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y214/Radio_Lady/Popeye_Playhouse50scast.jpg

Author: Alfredo_t
Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 5:33 pm
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

Maybe, the KOXI-CA people are hoping that they can get a good deal on a channel 6 superturnstile antenna from KOIN? :-) Seriously, what is going to happen to all of those low-VHF antennas and transmitters? Can the visual transmitter from a high-VHF transmitter be converted to DTV operation by changing the exciter and removing the combiner at the output?

Author: Newflyer
Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 6:46 pm
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

I don't think I can receive KOXI-CA on ch. 20 where I am (SE Portland, no outdoor antenna). w9wi.com lists them as being an A1 affiliate.

What I still really hope happens to at least the VHF-high channels (4,5,6, 76-88mhz) is an expansion of the FM band. However, something tells me the bandwidth is too valuable for that.

Author: Motozak2
Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 7:37 pm
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

As far as I know, the VHF-High band will be hosting ATSC channels next Feb......KGW's ATSC will be moved to 8, KOPB's to 10 and KPTV's to 12. Are you sure you aren't thinking of the VHF-low channels? ;o)

Author: Andy_brown
Saturday, November 29, 2008 - 8:01 pm
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

The FCC Engineering office has said (unofficially) that the first thing that happens after all the full power analog's turn off is a total evaluation of DTV performance in their absence including coverage and interference so that they can determine whether the power and height levels they are using for DTV need to be adjusted (or not) to give DTV full power stations the coverage intended.

After that, there will be great discussions. The propagation quality of these signals in the VHF band are too valuable to waste on low density modulation. Look for larger channels than the existing 6 MHz spacing. Look for multiple channel streams, Look for much lower power levels to allow for daisy chaining like the cellular model.

That's my best guess until I hear otherwise.

The government will choose the solution that raises the most money at auction, as per required by the Communications Reform Act of 1996. Whether that is an existing or future technology doesn't change the outlook as far as "expanding" the FM Band. FM licenses are commodities. The markets are saturated with FM stations competing for a shrinking pie. There are fewer owners running more stations each at higher expense and making less money. Their "no ownership limits" business model is broke and the government isn't about to fix it anytime soon. The mega owners will sell off some assets in the short term, but don't look for any new bandwidth to expand anything but the newer technologies.

Author: Alfredo_t
Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 1:14 am
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

The guy filling in for Bill Wattenberg on KGO tonight (I had heard him before, but forgot his name) was expounding on the difference between the FCC of yesteryear and their policies today. The important difference, he said was that previously, the FCC charged spectrum users a comparatively small regulatory fee. Today, the FCC is selling off chunks of spectrum. He has a philosophical problem with this (although he supports DTV) because the FCC is selling off something that should belong to the public.

From that, it follows that the former VHF-low channels will go to the entity or entities that offer the most money for them, and the modulation used will be whatever these entities want to use. Most likely, they will be proprietary systems.

Author: Semoochie
Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 2:13 am
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

I understand the FCC is looking at a 2012 deadline for translators, LPTVs and Class A stations. The KOXI-CA application for channel 6 is for displacement purposes and will probably be authorized albeit temporarily. I'm still trying to figure out why KOIN bothered to replace its main antenna a few years ago.

Author: Kq4
Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 9:35 am
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

"The guy filling in for Bill Wattenberg on KGO..."

Alfredo, you'll be very interested in this bio of "the guy filling in," (Jim Gabbert).

Author: Jr_tech
Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 10:54 am
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

"I'm still trying to figure out why KOIN bothered to replace its main antenna a few years ago."

Didn't the original plans call for the old tower to be shortened/removed before the DTV transition?

I heard that the parts salvaged from the old ch 6 transmitter were to be used to support a "sister station" in Hawaii.

Author: Andy_brown
Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 12:48 pm
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

"FCC is selling off chunks of spectrum. He has a philosophical problem with this (although he supports DTV) because the FCC is selling off something that should belong to the public."

Not "selling", auctioning off leases. The bandwidth is still owned by the public as administrated over by the government. Existing broadcast giants got their assets through purchases that put money into the hands of the previous lease holder. Auctions puts the money back into the public wallet. The old time broadcast license holders are the ones that essentially got their license at a bargain, paying only the filing fees and annual license fees. Of course, by the 50's and through the early 90's, mutually exclusive applications were settled in COSTLY hearings that ran the acquisition price up to the sky. The government figured auctions were a simpler way of getting to that point, since "most qualified applicant" in a hearing was often the one that was the one with deepest pockets, anyway. At the time of the passing of the Act of '96, there really weren't a whole heck of a lot of new properties being competed for around the country (about 115 hearings were active before being frozen in '96). The bandwidth rush after the act was the result of upgrades and downgrades, move-ins, etc. only made possible through the mega owners buying those stations previously preventing upgrades and relocations, and downsizing them.

Re: Channel 6 There are a handful of DTV assignments on 6. I think Philadelphia is the only one that is currently on analog 6.
According to the FCC, after DTV coverage is analyzed post analog turn off, one of the first rulemakings may lift the Ch 6. interference requirements for FM NCE's. Many vertical only stations will be able to go circular. This will be a big improvement IMO. Again, though, there is little energy at the FCC to support any other FM changes like expanding the band down into that area. Fuggedaboutit.

Author: Newflyer
Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 6:24 pm
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

Are you sure you aren't thinking of the VHF-low channels? ;o)
Yes, thank you. My earlier post was contradictory, as I said "VHF-High," then said "channels 4,5,6," which are clearly part of VHF-Low. I was thinking of the break between analog channels 4 and 5, which also meant I got the channel numbers wrong (not 4, just 5 and 6)!

Again, though, there is little energy at the FCC to support any other FM changes like expanding the band down into that area. Fuggedaboutit.
I was thinking that was going to be the answer from the folks that are still 100% in the game.

Author: Alfredo_t
Sunday, November 30, 2008 - 7:28 pm
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

Gabbert specifically used the word "selling," and said that he would be OK with the FCC leasing pieces of spectrum. He could be wrong. I do not have a legal background, so I will just come out and admit that I do not know or understand all of the subtle points of the legal definitions involved.

Since I have not heard much in the way of details of how the auction system works, I have a few questions:
1) When a company prevails at a spectrum auction, for how long does that company gain rights to use the piece of spectrum that they had bid on?

2) If a company with spectrum usage rights goes out of business, does that spectrum automatically revert back to the FCC, or can the failing company sell if off to recover some of its debts?

3) Will companies with spectrum usage rights have the right to sell of their spectrum, as they see fit? If that is the case, won't all spectrum bandwidth get turned into a commodity?

Author: Craig_adams
Monday, December 01, 2008 - 9:53 pm
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

It's WKRP-TV! This from All Access:

-------WKRP is back on the air in CINCINNATI -- but this time itís for real-------

A low-power TV station has changed its call letters to WKRP, the same as the fictional radio station in the 1970s hit series "WKRP In CINCINNATI."

The station changed its call letters to promote its new digital TV signal. It formerly went by WBQC-TV. General Manager ELLIOTT BLOCK says the new call letters give the station recognition because so many people remember the television sit-com.

Author: Andy_brown
Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 12:47 pm
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

Some of you should bookmark this link:

http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf

If you want to order it, go to http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.html

I have the 198? version of this chart down in the basement.
It sometimes is the quickest way to find out who/what is operating at a particular place in the spectrum.

Andy

Author: Tomparker
Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 4:31 pm
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

"Some of you should bookmark this link:
http://www.ntia.doc.gov/osmhome/allochrt.pdf "

O.M.G. I did! (Going back to look through the drawer for a pocket protector now...)

Author: Alfredo_t
Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 5:55 pm
Top of pageBottom of page Link to this message

View profile or send e-mail Edit this post

I downloaded the PDF of the frequency allocations chart. This chart, in various forms, is posted in a variety of places in the company where I work. Test equipment manufacturers seem to like to create posters of this chart to advertise their products.


Topics Profile Last Day Last Week Search Tree View Log Out     Administration
Topics Profile Last Day Last Week Search Tree View Log Out   Administration
Welcome to Feedback.pdxradio.com message board
For assistance, read the instructions or contact us.
Powered by Discus Pro
http://www.discusware.com