I'm going to take a break from a lot of stuff, PDXRadio included. I didn't have a lot of time, but I did find time to phone bank, and help people vote, and talk to people and feel their desire and know I was not alone in this. I was driven by the need for it to happen, and now must be driven by the reality of actually making it happen!

This was an amazing time. Being able to feel something good, new, different, happening, and having that something cross party lines, race lines, gender lines, was powerful. Hell, it is powerful. We live in interesting times and what we just saw speaks to our future being brighter than a whole lot of us want to give it credit for.

After seeing people rise up and say, "Enough!", I have come to realize it's gonna take some hard work, and it's going to take channeling passion into action and ideas that have the potential to get us there.

Where "there" is, is something I just thought about, and also realize I'm not quite sure where that is, other than it's supposed to be better than where we are now! That's kind of cool, if you think about it. Cool, like some kind of adventure, only it's our adventure, real live adventure, as in wake up and know good things are gonna happen.

Woke up this morning a little drunk from the euphoria. Shook that off, and did some thinking about a lot of things and found latent anger and frustration.

That is the bit that demands accountability for the last two cycles. Not sure that's ever going to go away, but I am sure that if it's not managed, then the potential to become bitter and extreme is very real and that has the potential to diminish what could happen, and after all this crap, I don't think anybody that matters wants that.

Lars was playing Chumbawumba - "Danny Boy". (not sure that's the title, but you all know the tune --"I get knocked down, and get up again...") I chuckled at that, being the kind of people they are, but the feeling that the old divisive crap just ain't over came through loud and clear. Well, no thanks man. I'm not gonna bite at all. Don't need it, don't want it, won't have it.

A clear majority of us want to fix stuff so that life just isn't that freaking hard every day. Count me in on that, and I don't care where the good ideas come from. They might be conservative ones, liberal, independent, foreign... doesn't matter.

Only matters that we consider them, then apply the good ones toward the goal of making good things happen. I kind of need good things to happen. I think a lot of people do.

So it's a reset for me. Time to listen to other people, think through a lot of stuff and sort out the emotion from the reality and from that see the potential. Anger and frustration got me some understanding of things I would not have otherwise had. Motivated me too.

It's tempting to cultivate that and apply it, but every time I've ever done that, it's not been as good as it could have been otherwise, so I don't want to go there.

I think it's cruel that we had to choose between potentially losing this shot and civil rights progresss for gay people. Heck, I'm not even gay, so I could just say "fuck it, that's their problem". I think a lot of people will, and thus we have gay being the new black.

Ugh...

A listen to all the conservatives rolling out new framing for the same tired, not wired, crap, was enlightening. If we buy in, then we will lose power and potency. They are gonna spend a lot of time making that appeal, finding the new wedges that work, and they will apply them, because they live for, are driven by, and cannot see past those "nothing else matters" issues, whatever they are.

My youngest daughter led a "No on 9" rally in Junior High School! I felt her passion that day, and feel it now, watching with interest as we all saw the results come in. The kids asked about Obama. "Will he make it dad?". When that was secure, they asked about the marriage bill in CA. I had not even mentioned it! They knew. And they made it clear, they are so past that, it's not even funny.

Many of us, living adults, are not and it shows. So take some strength from that. It's only a matter of time with civil progress. The up and comers are not gonna have this, just as we were not gonna have the corruption, greed and corporate indifference. We got our part done, so all we really need to do is carry that torch forward to them, where they will get their part done.

It is safe to say, right now, at this moment, in this time, a clear majority of Americans know what matters. I'm among them. We've got to have our house in order to see future progress on social issues. So that's what matters most. That's tough, because good people just want it all fixed. It will be, one generation at a time.

So that's the reset. Time to go back through the issues, the priorities, and reconsider them in light of the new political culture. The old guard is done. They've had their run, and now it's time for our generation to take their shot, ideally teeing things up for the one to come. Here's something to think about:

They have exactly as much power as we are willing to surrender to them. Buy into the BS, and they get power. So just don't.

I harbor confidence that we will do one hell of a lot better than the previous generation did.

Nice post, Missing. I am sad to hear that you won't be around the boards much more. Just wanted to clarify Chumbawumba's one hit is "Tubthumping" which is about drinking like "Danny Boy." I know this only because it is my ring tone on my phone, not for the drinking part but the line:

"I get knocked down!
But I get up again!
You're never gunna keep me down!"

Because it's a fitting line for when life kicks you in the jibblies, like the past 8 years of Dubya.

It's a break, not a retirement! (and thanks too! Don't be sad on my account. Reality is, I'm just some guy, who contributes here. Nice to know others think something of it. This little community is better with you in it, you know! That is what brings me back. We are good people, and it shows more than it doesn't!)

Too bad about that being one hit. "Drip, Drip, Drip..." is probably the best tune on the album! I have it in regular rotation. Maybe it's just a bit out of the mainstream message to get regular play, but it's just very well done. Trendy too.

I think it's healthy to take some time to just let things go. There is going to be a lot of stuff to get into, and it's gonna come up soon.

Right now, I feel happy and hopeful. Why not leverage that and get some energy from it? That's the plan anyway.

Think of it as a recharge, and a ...reset! A whole lot of things just changed. That takes some time to absorb and consider. IMHO, we can't see what the change potential is, if we frame it in terms of the past, or let that framing shape where we might go, potentially.

The easiest way to avoid this, is to simply deny it for a time. The brain will do what it does, see things, process things and come to understand and imagine things.

So, that's what I'll just let it do for a while.

BTW: http://www.change.gov

God damn! Obama is gonna be quite a bit different animal than we are used to. That took what? A day or so?

" Right now, I feel happy and hopeful. Why not leverage that and get some energy from it? That's the plan anyway."

I knew if I waiting long enough, someone would say it for me too.

I'm moving to Canada.

Have a Molson's for me eh!

I may go to Canada too...

We are at a huge crossroads in our culture. This was the right time for Obama, and I'm admitting that as a conservative voter here in Oregon.

This time is crucial and we need the right leader for America to bring us back some leverage in the world.

I have some fears missing and I really think just as I returned from retirement you should stay here a little while before taking a break.

You listened to Lars the other day... I listen occasionally just to get my fill of life from extreme perspectives. One day Lars had some audio leaked from 2001 in which Obama basically stated the Constitutional framework in his opinion was done wrong and that the Constitution should state what we should not do, not what we have the right to do. A limitation of rights, not an admission of rights. It scared me honestly as the balance of power in our system allows us the ambiguity and the flexibility of our Consitution in everyday life. I feared that if that ever was the opposite that same ambiguity would be generally implied, not fought for.

Obama and his relationships, although nothing has come up recently still scares me. I'm waiting for that day down the road where his old pastor will show up at the White House steps to bless Thanksgiving dinner and no one will blink twice. Anyone who says what he said in the pulpit about America and how God should take his wrath on it shouldn't really be allowed to be a close personal ally. We aren't all religious, we aren't all patriotic and are entitled to our opinion, but just as many don't want to see Bush ever again I don't want to see desecration of our country in a politically sacred arena. This is still America and I'm proud of it. Same with Bill Ayres, don't let me hear you talking to him.

I don't think anyone can argue with me that if many things Obama proposed are passed they will move the country more towards socialism than capitalism. Healthcare... the biggest customer being the government with their dollars now controlling coverages, costs and claims. Banks starting with Bush with the federal government holding some if not much of the stocks. Energy where now that gas prices have dropped dramatically, ideas will slow and dependence will re-emerge with oil producing nations. The above in some regards might be a good thing, although it could give more power to one branch of the government than any other.

Regardless whether you are for or against the above, it is a shift in democracy and government control.

I voted for Obama because he had a clear economic plan where McCain just never could come up with anything I could go for. There is the argument that taking away the money from the people who invest in start up companies in higher taxes will reduce new ideas and fostering them. There is also the argument though that putting more money in blue collar hands will stimulate spending which in turn will make those with control richer and able to spend money again. I see those sides.

The last thing I want to see is a tax increase with the economy in shambles. With more people in the goverment, less taxes are being raised from private employers. To do everything Obama wants, we need to raise money somehow to pay for it all and manage this massive debt on our books at the same time.

Anybody have a Molson for me? I don't want to go to even a more socialist country but if I can't afford anything now and I won't benefit under Obama when his term is said and done, I gotta get me universal healthcare to pay for my drugs.

Ok Chaps. Because it's you, I'll explain a bit more about why I'm gonna take a break, in the hopes you find some tools to help resolve this.

I'm looking for perspective. Need some as there have been a lot of changes. Part of that means listening and thinking for a bit. One example was Thom Hartmann yesterday. He had the guy from Talkers magazine on, and a very interesting point was made:

progressive is not equal to liberal.

In other words, one can be a progressive minded person, and be liberal or conservative about said progress.

Interesting?

I sure think so. This is just the kind of thing I was talking about in my initial post!

The typical framing is a line. On one end of it, lies liberals, on the other conservatives. Depending on where we are at in our political lives, we are taught to fear and loathe the other end of the damn line!

Think about that for a moment, and I'm quite sure you will consider that as foolish as I do.

I want you to tell me why that is foolish. Do it right here on this thread, and I'll be sure and read it. It will be good for you.

When I first decided politics mattered, you were there. Many of us were, and I think we all just needed to hash some stuff out. And we did.

One thing that came out of that was the realization that the political spectrum is really a plane, at a minimum. There is social for one axis, and fiscal on the other. That's the political spectrum test posted here, off and on.

That framing was more powerful, and it cut right through the fear. It can explain how the conservatives here get along with and see common ground with liberals here. And do check! We are not all self-identified liberals.

But that isn't powerful enough to explain why Obama made the grade, or if it is, it's not powerful enough to think through the implications.

When I do my thinking, I like to use the very best of tools. If I don't, then my bullshit detector goes off for no reason and that just hoses things proper! No good.

This is why I'm on a break for a while. After seeing Obama win, and starting to think things through, I realize I don't have good enough tools to understand what it means. I measure that by not always being able to predict what I might see from politicians.

Obama has surprised me numerous times, where others really haven't so much.

I suspect this is due to the tools he uses to reason with.

Wanna know what getting old means?

We stop looking for new tools, and become unable to reason outside of the tools we have! As younger people, we seek these, largely because we don't have any! So we grab a big set and get after it. Some of us get a fairly complete set, and others don't, and the results are as seen in real life.

So, I'm listening to lots of people chatter to see who appears to get it, and who is just bitching. I'm going to go with the bitching being an artifact of not having a good set of tools to reason with, and being frustrated about that.

I think it's a good position to take. I could be wrong, but I won't know for a while, just like I didn't know where I was at on a lot of other things over the years.

The Hartmann program was interesting because the Talkers guy said that progressive was really another axis on the political spectrum, making the thing a cube!

That's enough to model the people I know that shouldn't have voted for Obama, but did! So that one is being added to the collection for now. It might prove to be bunk, but I'm liking it so far.

That implies another assumption, and normally I don't share these right now, but I'm gonna, because I feel confident about this one.

Most everybody wants to do the right things. Having the wrong tools, means wanting to do the right things and actually having the right things happen are two different things!

eg: Somebody too wrapped up in their dogma might see legislation as being the right thing, when it's not known to the be the right thing. Understanding this subtle bit is very very important!

If a person is absolutely sure the right thing needs to happen, they will go to the mat for it. If they only believe, or suspect, many of them just won't.

And this one is more edgy:

Character problems, such as excessive greed, lust for power, and such, come from people of powerful character and strong will, lacking the tools to reason over their innate desires and characteristics!

In my own life, I don't want things, but I do absolutely crave power! No question about it. I normally don't fall prey to that because I understand what power brings with it, and all things considered, that's not a good thing for me, so it's rational then to not go to seek it, but to let it find me instead.

Now, to put that into perspective, we've got a lot of conservative people, unable to see enough of the political spectrum to consider diverse enough ideas to move forward. They are in a rut. The same can be said for liberal people.

They are trapped in the framing! And they are worried, frustrated, etc...

This explains most of the people bitching about Obama right now, whether or not they voted for him.

I don't want to do that. I don't think new progress can be had doing that, and I also don't think going back to a particular time in the past will fix things either. Times change, things change, people change, the world changes.

There are potentially really good paths ahead of us. I want to be on ONE of those. There isn't just one, nor is there a perfect one, there are just better ones.

Obama wants this and is sophisticated enough in his reasoning to get us there. And knowing that brings me some measure of trust.

It's damn nice to know the President is highly likely to be smarter than most of us are, and that said president is gonna show us how to use some of the really great tools picked up along the way to the White House.

Time to break the mold man! Do some listening, do some reading, thinking and sort out your needs and wants from the dogma and rhetoric.

It will do you the same good it's gonna do me, and anybody else that entertains this.

See 'ya for a while! Not sure how long. Long enough to reset and see the world a bit more like how I saw it as a young person. I'm gonna go play, do, listen, learn, think, enjoy and just be me, not me + a bunch of shit accumulated over the last 8 years or so.

Join me.

We can then come back and talk all new, and there will be stuff to learn, positions to hash out, stories to tell, and frustrations to vent.

Well, in your absence, your well articulated, thoughtful and cogent posts will be greatly missed. I am always astounded by some of the highly intelligent and well thought out posts that are made here and yours are always some of the best of the bunch.

I am predicting this place will be a little less interesting due to election of Barack Obama and the moving away from the past 8 years of the Bush administration. What will virtually every thread now devolve to now that Duhbya is gone? Plus, since a few other posters who normally represented the right side of the aisle have apparently moved on, the political discourse won't have much bite to it.

I know I'm not one of the most avid posters here, probably more of a spectator in the proceedings, but I have been here a long time. In that time, the one thing I've recently noticed is that through all the back and forth, through all the posting and rebuttals, through all the insightful comments and namecalling, I cannot think of one instance where someone from the other side, either side, had one of those "ah-ha" moments and give much merit to the other side's viewpoints. This place all too well represents a microcosm of the divided nature of what this country has become..."we're right all the time, and you're wrong all the time, and you're a (insert label here) if you don't see that". Seems like a lot of effort was expelled with very little to show for it. Nobody changed their minds. I guess that's a pretty good testament to the strength of the values of the individuals here, but after 8 years of the discussion of liberal vs. neo-cons, Bush, Nixon, God and abortion with generally the same outcomes, I can see why one would consider "suspending" their campaign here to pursue other interests. After beating your head against the same wall it's gonna need time to heal the migraine.

I'm sure this site will continue even with the departure of a few posters. No question the results of the election will extinguish much of the fireworks within some of the threads. Perhaps the topics will focus on common experiences and interests, hopefully evolving into a more united nature in the dialogue rather than the divisiveness of the past few years. Then it very well might continue to be what I hope will be a microcosm for this country under the Obama administration.

"Seems like a lot of effort was expelled with very little to show for it."

I would disagree with that. Even though some minds have not been changed, minds have been opened and I know for me personally the excercise of hashing out positions and reading other's people's perspectives has enriched my own perspective. I suspect that this is the case for others as well.

You are wrong in this.

Minds were changed here. I know mine was, SEVERAL times. That's why I stayed with it. There are good minds here, passionate ones, that are not inclined to take much crap. That is exactly what it takes to get value from discourse. There are plenty here, who will step right up and deliver exactly that.

(and the risk of losing it won't keep me for too terribly long)

On Abortion, we found a few people, who realized they were more for fixing the problem than outright banning it.

On Homosexuality, we found that being gay is something that we are born with. That was determined to in a manner that is as close to a real truth as we can get, without science stepping in to connect the dots with the math.

It's not a choice. We found that the debate then is not about being gay being a sin, but over the justification behind asking those people to live a lie.

On liberal, we found that we are social and fiscal creatures and that we are more complex than the left - right framing accounts for.

We found that we have a lot in common, and that wedge issues are not the be all, end all.

On faith, we've seen good faith and bad faith, and that cost us dearly. We learned about some boundaries and now do far better on that discussion than we would have before. Tell me that isn't a significant change. I think it is. I know for me personally, it is, and I'm extremely happy for it.

Along the way, we made friends, talked about music, life, wierdnesses, learned how each of us think, and through that added a few tools to the toolbox.

Finally, really changing minds is TOUGH. Doesn't happen all that often. Admitting it happens even less, and that's where I've tried VERY hard to make that known when it happens, so that others can see it and know they too can do it. (didn't have too much luck in that, but hey...)

What we think is "better" for us is going to get heated. Trust me. I suspect that Obama is going to piss every one of us off in the first year, and that will be fuel for discussion.

Anyway, I couldn't let that one stand Dono.

I don't know. A couple posters have left this place with the very same positions they started with, despite all of the evidence and facts that were presented to the contrary. For example, despite how much evidence was tossed out regarding 9/11 and the Iraq war, there seemed to be very little demonstration that it was sinking in with a few people that the Iraq war was a mistake.

A few posters have left this place I'm presuming because of the obvious majority thinking of most of the posters. Several people here who posted on a regular basis maintained the exact same beliefs, trotting out the very same argument time and time again, regardless how many times they were shown to be wrong. When challenged to present evidence supporting their opinion, many of those posters would avoid the challenge, drop the thread and repeat the same on a different thread. That is what I was referring to in that it was akin to beating one's head against the wall.

Perhaps saying "no one" changed their minds was incorrect. What I was trying to say is that it was beginning to feel many threads would essentially deteriorate to where some of the same people arguing with the same people about the same things.

Ok, that makes some sense.

Yeah, that was ugly. Costly too, at times. On the flip side, look at the absolutely stellar counter points that had to evolve in an attempt to make double damn sure nobody was missing anything!

Just a few comments . . .

There are more spectators here than posters, so who really knows "how many minds get changed". Besides, this place is is good for a lot of food for thought.

And it Justin Timberfake's case it's a place for Thought's about FOOD!

YU GnO what I mean!

The Constitution should state what we should not do, not what we have the right to do.

But yet DUHbya and Co. didn't even follow the Constitution.... Go figure....

Don't go Missing! You make me read! You make me think.... Good or bad you make me think long and hard about what you say. My wife loves to read what you have to say sometimes as well....

>>There are more spectators here than posters

Yes. "...longtime listener, first time caller..."

We all have times when we need a vacation. There will be plenty to talk about after Obama has started work in the oval office.

Trix... I missed ya buddy... I'm not going to even justify responding to that comment

Randy sez: "...longtime listener, first time caller..."

Yeah, its a good time for some of our spectators to start a few threads . . . now that McCain (and his cat) has left the scene and EVERYBODY now agrees that Bush sucks, we're kind of at a loss for topics.

Missing,

I can see the point on framing, maybe not as a cube but we all have two spectrum that co-mingle. One with the amount of progressive work we want to do and the other being the fiscal - liberal boundary.

However, I don't think you can dismiss our teachings on that typical framing just as hogwash or foolish. The spectrum is there for a reason. We need counterbalance in society. For every give there is take, for every social injustice there is equality. I don't consider the base foolish honestly because without that basic fiber of belief in the liberal-fiscal tug of war we as a country cannot move forward in that progressive mindset.

When the third variable of progressiveness is introduced I feel that the balance of each side, liberal/liberal progressive and fiscal/fiscal progressive is still maintained. For instance, let's use the example of social security. We have those purists who feel that social security should be invested in the stock market from day one in a 401k. We have the other purists who feel that social security is just fine in its state as it was created back when FDR signed the bill into law. Yet it's when progressive ideas come together that we see a hybrid mingling of the two and people receive a fixed income with the ability when they work to invest a portion outside of ss for a better return. May not be the best of examples, but it shows to me the progressive work that can be done on both sides to achieve a balance.

It's not that I fear and loathe the other side of the line, it's that I fear the progressive variable that is introduced and that it can go too far.

The biggest thing about Obama I love regardless of my progressive beliefs above is the patriotism he will reintroduce into our society. People in my generation are stoked about what they can do for their country starting in January.

You had mentioned your edgy thoughts about character and it brings me to the old adage, absolute power corrupts absolutely. Bill Clinton was arguably one of the smartest presidents ever and he had a power problem like most presidents do regardless of their IQ. I'm not bitching about Obama, I just don't want everyone to get their hopes up for the world if a letdown were to happen. That in mind I will do everything I can to help the man, and just interject some of my belief along the way.

Which is why I mentioned the tug of war above. I'm the yin to your yang and I will continue to be just as you continue to challenge me on this board. That balance is partly what makes America the greatest place on Earth and why despite me not posting why I've read every comment on here I can over the last several months. Retirement only slows you down and keeps your ideas out of society, the biggest thing I've learned over the last few months. So go play and enjoy yourself... Stick around though, because the shit from the last 8 years is almost gone and the real ideas that move society begin in the smallest of places.

"So go play and enjoy yourself..."

Indeed! I'm doing exactly that!

The cube bit is just a visual tool for me. Picturing variables as geometric entities, produces shapes within boundaries that often highlight things in the data not easily seen otherwise. At least that's how I work.

Some of the teachings are foolish. I was specific on those; namely the hate and loathing. If we go past that, then it's all just framing and scope and all of that does have value. Given the content of your post, I think we agree on that.

My primary point, beyond hate and loathing being foolish, is about making damn sure we have adequate scope in our thoughts about how things could go. If we don't, we will limit how things can go and that in turn takes potential off the table.

Too narrow and you fall beneath conservative. Too broad and it's not rational and you fall the other way past liberal. Somewhere in there is good healthy scope where the important discussion happens. That's all.

I think we agree on this also. We may differ in degree, but that's just how it is. No worries for anybody, given awareness of the potential problem is on the table.

Your social security example is an interesting one to me. I would counter with the idea that if we did permit some measure of control over those investment dollars (and I think of it more as insurance), then I would say that structure should have very solid regulations.

The purpose of the program is to make sure we have some minimum level of income for our elders to maintain some level of dignity. I think that goal doesn't fully intersect with your proposal, unless strong regulation is a part of the picture to make sure that dignity in fact happens.

Then again, here's another alternative. Say we leave SS alone. Nobody gets to gamble with any portion of it, and it continues to achieve that minimum dignity.

Say we do things that increase our buying power per hour worked, and reduce personal risk. The result of that will be people having some greater portion of their income free to invest and doesn't that get the same thing done?

If we are to talk about personal responsibility, and I think we are and I'm big on that too, then shouldn't we also discuss it in the context of everybody?

So then, if we structure things so that there is a lot of risk pushed onto people, as in let them sink or swim based on their choices, we then should compensate them to a higher degree as risk really equals dollars?

What I can't see is doing both! That's what we have right now. Downward wage pressure is combined with very high risk, and a lot of people are sinking. This puts pressure onto SS as people are looking for anything they can to improve their lot because their lot just isn't all that good.

In my own life, risk has come home way too many times. I can say that if I had control of some of the social security dollars, I would have exercised it, and I probably would have lost. The need to satisfy risk was very great, and it consumed most everything.

I'm glad that was not on the table at all.

My own wage is solid too. It's just that risk is too high for where I'm at income wise. And that's with a modest lifestyle too. My point here is that the current structure really is a lotto of sorts. We have people making good choices. They are saving, investing, 401k, buying homes, etc... and risk is consuming that as risk does. The numbers are too high.

So, take personal responsibility to another perspective and that perspective being those that run businesses.

(and I had to have this exact conversation with my employer)

Any employer can make the max. All they need to do is just push the risk onto those they employ and that will happen more often and more regularly than not.

Any MBA knows this, and that's exactly what they do. They are taught to do that, and it works, but it comes at a cost.

The conversation I had was this: Is making the max worth burning out and losing your people? Turns out the answer was no! Good people are profitable and they take time to yield. Put too much risk on them and they fail to perform, and those failures have an opportunity cost in that the business may not grow as it could have, because the people might not be able to do what they could have.

So then, there is some personal responsibility there too. Making the absolute max needs to be balanced against risk, or doing that work, living that way, isn't worth it and in the greater scheme of things it all crashes.

Look around at the crash man! There it is.

So then, distributing risk dilutes it, marginalizes it, and we end up being able to do more of the right things more of the time. That means we apply more of our accumulated value toward profit and growth than we do addressing the results of risk.

This is why health care is important. Health care hammered me. Hammered a ton of people. All those people lost their homes, couldn't buy things, had their time consumed, etc...

The cost of fixing the problems risk brings to the table is higher than just marginalizing the risk. So we can distribute it, and we can do preventative things to limit it, and we save because of it.

That savings works it's way up to those powerful people dealing in wealth every day, but we are gonna have to enforce some responsibility on to them, because they will deal in wealth no matter what we do, so we might as well cut risk and have a better time of it.

The current cycle of "taxes are too high" and "money is being wasted" and "why can't I use some of that SS money", etc... all are attempts to feed risk and they seem urgent because personal risk is too high.

Lower that and many of those problems go away.

That's why I suggested regulation be a part of what you would propose. We can't add risk to the pool of personal risk, because a lot of people are hurting enough to take that additional risk no matter what. That will do damage in the future as we have the SS program not always insuring that goal of minimum dignity, and that will cost us later.

Love your yin / yang bit. It's so true, but for the reality that there is more than just two sides to the discussion. There are at least six! (one in each direction from the centrist origin of the three variables)

If it were me, I would much rather leave SS alone, as it's supposed to be insurance and it's supposed to deliver a minimum dignity, not provide some great return. It's the baseline.

Instead, lower risk on people so they themselves have a solid shot at investing for an ADDITIONAL return beyond that MINIMUM assurance SS provides.

Think of all those people who lost their pensions because some CEO somewhere tapped the dollars, didn't own up to their personal responsibility, and squandered it for a shot at making the max. Know why they will do that?

Because we let the fuckers do that. If we let them, they will. If I were the CEO, I absolutely would! You would too.

That's a whole generation of older people coming on line that will over burden SS, despite a significant fraction of them making solid choices for their future.

The CEO doesn't suffer hardly any risk. The MBA approach insures that because they are taught to push risk off to others so their return is higher. Well, there you go. Another perspective on personal responsibility.