Good grief, let's hope not!

http://www.djcoregon.com/articleDetail.htm/2008/09/16/650foot-tower-coming-to-Wa terfront-Park-MulvannyG2-Architecture-has-designed-building-to-serve-as-mo

As a photographer who has photographed Portland's skyline numerous times, I beg the powers that be NOT to build this monstrosity!!!! PULEEAZZEE DON'T!!!!!!!

Andrew

What a great vantage point to look at that other eyesore, the "Tramatross".

Nah, you don't need a tower to see the Tram. You can see it even from the river near the Rose Garden (arena) if you look hard enough.

Anyway, the Tram doesn't ruin the Cityscape, and it has been an interesting new subject to photograph! The proposed tower is ugly, always there, and ruins the cityscape!!! I'm always bemoaning the ugly cranes that go up on during construction to ruin my photos and this thing looks like a big crane!

Andrew

This will never happen.

The soil in Waterfront Park is so soft that the expense of excavation and foundation would be prohibitive.

The zoning would have to be changed, currently designated OS for Open Space. There have been several planned buildings close to the river in the area in question that have been scrapped because of the height limit which extends I think up to SW 3rd? from Burnside all the way to Montgomery? Not sure of the exact boundary, but the Ben Franklin building (whatever it's called now?) is about the biggest structure that close to the river in the downtown core and it's maybe 150'?

It would indeed be an eyesore, and a financial boondoggle. The public outcry would be deafening.

Rest easy. Ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

What's one more boondoggle for Portland, Light Rail, Tram-a-tross, Wanna-be-Space Needle.

Light rail is hardly a boondoggle. If you think it is, you are vastly mistaken. Without it, the traffic in this town would be so bad our already large commute times would be off the scale. Besides, a large part of its cost comes from Federal money.

Yeah, light rail, that doesn't work at all. Witnness the packed full train cars.

People who think light rail (and the bus system) doesn't improve traffic in Portland don't understand the concept of congestion. While only a small percentage of Portland commuters use TriMet, one must understand that when the roads are at, say, 95% of capacity, an extra 1% of people driving has an exponential impact on congestion. The percentage of riders as an absolute number is irrelevant. If at 1am I-84 is running at only 5% capacity, suddenly adding 25% more of the capacity to the road will have no real impact on congestion. Adding 1% when the highway is at 95% capacity has a huge impact on congestion.

That said, I have a lot of problems with MAX. I'm glad we have a light rail system and in places it works well - but I'm disappointed that it has a built-in block on expanding it. For one, MAX trains are limited to two cars (one Portland city block). And all the MAX stops are designed that way. I've never seen light rail in other cities where the trains were limited to being that short. Having such short trains also increases the cost to operate MAX when you expand it. If you had four cars on a train as in many other cities, you need only one driver. With MAX, you need two drivers for four cars, one for each train. (And perhaps only at rush hour.) that means you have to hire more part-time drivers as you want to add cars; other cities can simply add/remove cars at rush hours to add/remove capacity. MAX can't do that easily.

Also, because the system was designed to go through downtown and sometimes stop every other block, with no bypass possible, there is a built-in slowness in the system that eventually will limit the ability to expand it.

I wish MAX could at least express through downtown instead of stopping twelve times...

Andrew

MAX makes a minimal impact on traffic at best. Considering the amount of money it costs to build and run it compared to the amount of people it moves, its a boondoggle. Better roads and more buses would be cheaper and more efficient.

Vitalogy: MAX makes a minimal impact on traffic at best.

See above. I'm sure it is having a huge impact on traffic. If everyone now taking MAX or buses starting driving, we'd see Seattle-like traffic at rush hour.

Considering the amount of money it costs to build and run it compared to the amount of people it moves, its a boondoggle. Better roads and more buses would be cheaper and more efficient.

Ever heard of the concept of induced traffic? The more lanes you add, the more people drive and you still get traffic. If you want to see what happens when you try to solve your traffic problems by adding more lanes to the highways, look at cities like Houston.

The unfortunate problem with buses is that people hate them and often refuse to ride them. It's partly due to comfort, partly due to class stigma ("only poor people rides buses."). I get motion sick on buses and can't read on them but I'm fine on trains which are much more steady. I hate long bus rides but I love long train rides.

Andrew

As an engineer, the idea of a tower that doubles as an observation deck and as a means of generating electricity seems pretty cool. The proposed choice for location seems pretty stupid. Besides the problems with mushy soil being next to a river, is there enough wind in downtown Portland to run the blades? Why don't they build this thing on Mount Tabor or some other high spot?

Most of the people riding MAX would not be driving anyway. They'd be on buses, carpooling with other cars already on the road, or not going at all. The MAX system does not have the capacity or ability to serve more than a small fraction of the entire commuting population. For the money we spend on MAX, there are better, less sexy alternatives. In a world of free money on trees, sure, MAX is great. But on a dollar per commuter comparison to other ways of spending that money on getting people around, it's a boondoggle.

Better roads and more buses would be cheaper and more efficient.

Again, Dallas or Portland.

MAX, the tram, Steetcars make Portland, Portland.

With more buses and more roads you get Dallas.

High livability is a KEY concern here for me, REGARDLESS of cost. There is NO WAY I'm going to let people with sharp pencils who don't ride public transportation turn Portland into a Dallas.

That looks disgusting. And, at the rate things are going these days, there'd be an animated beer ad on the top of it, and also be used by the police as a surveillance tower.
I do think there should be new, taller, buildings in downtown, but this isn't it.

Also, one important thing about MAX and mass transit... it helps people get to work and medical appointments that cannot drive a motor vehicle and do not have someone to drive them to and from everything. Otherwise, that's a whole lot of people with stuff like seizure disorders, blindness, and etc., that are perfectly capable of working and doing something that would be forced to accept the small pittance of disability payments for their entire life as their only source of income (which also comes from tax dollars).

There is NO WAY I'm going to let people with sharp pencils who don't ride public transportation turn Portland into a Dallas.
Or, there's the other argument out there, which was heard in Clark Co. 3 years ago... no light rail, and less buses. That didn't happen though.

What is the height limit in Portland? I thought it was 460 feet. Has that changed?

Skep, you fail to counter my argument. Public transit will NEVER serve the majority of our population. Yes, MAX makes Portland, Portland, but it's still less efficient and more expensive than other solutions. And if you think we will move forward into the future by not building roads, you're in la la land. High livability for me means allowing us to commute without being bound by using a train or a bus. I say build the MAX but charge people that ride what it costs to build it and run it. Then we'll see whether people put their money where their mouth is actually pay the true cost to ride the train. MAX is a boondoggle.

"Why don't they build this thing on Mount Tabor or some other high spot?"

Years ago, during the construction of the Stonehenge tower, an artists sketch of a "space needle" rotating restaurant/observation deck on the tower was circulated. It never happened, perhaps it was just a spoof, but I thought that it would have been a good tourist attraction.

Yah- let's build the tram on a earthquake fault. LOL. and andy, that federal money comes from us silly taxpayers. it's not free.

Cool picture of Stonehenge:
http://www.sbe124.org/Tours/Stonehenge_Lightning_Strike_1024.jpg
KGON coming at you with 92.3 terawatts of power!

Vitology, I also support improving roads as well. Its vital for commerce to have a decent flowing road system. But the suv driver that commutes alone is ultra low on my priority list.

Paul, I believe the height restriction in Portland is now between the First Interstate Bank tower and the KOIN Center. But if I understand correctly, the skinnier your tower, the higher you can go.

As for the tower, I'm not sure. I like the idea, but the location and the design doesn't click.

So let's say we get rid of the SUV driver, which from the looks of Craigslist is happening.

That really does not free up enough throughput, leaving us in need of roadway improvements.

I gotta tell you guys, leaving my location in PDX has been one hell of a change. Commuting in is actually not a big deal. I've plenty of options and it's not a major issue. That's inbound 26.

The rest of the time, I'm now driving on largely free roads and it's pleasant.

PDX traffic is pretty rough most of the time in most places.

Ugh...

>>the idea of a tower that doubles as an observation deck and as a means of generating electricity seems pretty cool

hey...a great new site for a pirate...have an FM mini quarter watt transmitter to an Ipod hidden in your clothing and have dinner there 2 hours each night! With the height...downtown coverage ?

Hmmm...I wonder if anybody has ever tried doing something like that. Even a transmitter and audio source hidden inside a briefcase would be pretty inconspicuous!

This is a really stupid idea. DT wisely pointed out the Supertower. It is all that we need to feel potent and loaded for bear. We have already won the race to build an ever larger civic phallic symbol. Stonehenge is bigger than the space age wang dang doodle up north in the Emerald City. Hooray for Portland!