A buddy and I have been wanting to start our own internet station. Does the proposed RIAA royalty structure include unsigned and indie acts? Does it only cover artists that are signed to major labels and recordings that are owned by record labels? Does anyone know of some good resources for research?

www.kurthanson.com is a good place to start.

Not only does Kurt run an online indie music service, he produces what I'd say is the definitive daily newsletter on radio and the internet.

Thanks! I'll check it out.

Could Internet radio ever be commercially viable like over the air radio stations? The advantages: no license, transmitter and broadcasting tower is needed.

An internet radio is expensive. But someday it could be a standard feature in all radios.

You can even listen to an Internet radio station in your car.

http://tuner2.blogspot.com/

http://www.ccrane.com/radios/wifi-radios/cc-wifi-radio.aspx

>>The advantages: no license, transmitter and broadcasting tower is needed.<<

The disadvantages: You have to pay for each listener you have - both in bandwidth and in rights fees to composers and artists. Couple that with a weak advertising market and - at least today - Internet radio is for the most part not commercially viable.

But could Internet radio be commercially viable in the future?

Not yet, true, but someday. The form may vary. Here's a guy who says the podcast--with half-hour programs, rather than 24/7 stations--is the future:

http://insidemusicmedia.blogspot.com/

Lots of hurdles--the daily sync is a minor pain, rights and fees have to be worked out, and there's the little issue of how this generates money. Otherwise it's a cool hobby. But I'll say this: every day I listen to about an hour and a half of programming that I throw together on my IPhone consisting of podcasts and my own tunes, and if I need a live fix I hit AOL radio and check out WCBS or WSCR or whatever the hell I want. I'm extremely picky. I'm 50-something. So you know what the next generations will demand, and get.

There are some other options too.

Not all streaming software charges by the stream. There are open source streaming solutions that essentially only cost the aggregate bandwidth and hosting fees.

Music licensed through the usual suspects is costly, but Creative Commons music often isn't, and that body of tunes is growing nicely. There may come a time where it makes sense to start dipping into that.

Royalty rates for internet broadcasters are multifold higher than terrestrial broadcasters.

The audience part is totally there, they love Internet Radio. The numbers go up every month.

And you can't beat having a global audience, France, Russia, Africa, Australia, Canada, England, Jamaica, China, every city in the United States all from a station you produce in your livingroom. All kinds of people are doing that right now.

Being able to afford the rights on the music is the problemo!

Personally I think the audience is now huge enough that giants like Pepsi, Toyota, Kraft are gonna back some stations, with the help of the current missing link: sales people, we'll have a new golden age of radio. With the big sponsors perhaps the paying for the rights will become less of a crisis. Or, the record companies will get hip and realize the contribution being made.

The audience part is totally there, they love Internet Radio.

No doubt about that, but for the most part, like everything else on the net, they want it free. But will the audience still be there if commercials are programmed at the same frequency as terrestrial radio? To pay those royalty rates AND turn a profit, they almost have to be.

Paying for ad-free programming is a concept that would work best IMO, but its something that will take a while for many to adapt to.

Some time ago, I posed the question whether there are any Internet-only radio stations that are profit-making commercial ventures. It appears that today, there are a handful of well-known streaming radio "conglomerates," such as SomaFM. However, most Internet radio stations are hobby projects that lose money. I have a friend in Colorado, for instance, who has been running an Internet radio station for several years with his brother. His station recently got listed in the iTunes streaming radio directory. This, he said, raised the average listenership from about 15 to about 40. There is a possibility, he says, that the station will bring in enough money to break even someday--that is to pay for the Internet connection and royalties only--but that hasn't happened yet.

The main problem that one faces with building listenership for a new station is the amount of competition from other options:
1) streaming audio from established, big-budget traditional broadcast networks and program syndicators, such as BBC, NPR, etc.
2) streaming audio from broadcast radio stations that were previously familiar to the listener
3) streaming audio from established Internet-only radio stations, such as SomaFM
4) streaming audio from a plethora of other mom&pop independent stations, such as might be found on live365

All great points! But you don't have to worry about almost all of the traditional radio streams, they're just as bad on the internet as they are when you listen via FM. Tons of commercials, loads of "promotions" that are really just another commercial.

What does work in your favor is that if you produce an actual great "station" you will build a global audience. Audience building is quite different when your programming is available over the entire planet, rather than just one town/city. Just as many early terrestrial radio broadcasters were kinda like ham operators, the same is true in Internet Radio.

But, does it really matter that your audience is spread out all over the globe if it is too small to be attractive to advertisers? Back in the late 1980s and early 1990s, there were people who unsuccessfully tried to run advertising-supported radio stations on shortwave, such as WRNO and KUSW. All of these failed because they couldn't find enough advertisers to pay the bills. Things may work differently on the Internet because it is easy to measure listenership on that medium, whereas on shortwave it is nearly impossible. I think that a really important question for "The_dude2" is, do you and your friend expect to make a living off this radio station? If not, then how much money would you be willing to put into the station to keep it running? If you're willing to take a loss, I can ask my friend Ethan about the costs and revenues of operating his radio station so that we can have some numbers to work with.

ADD: I found the following article http://dvice.com/archives/2008/08/shift_how_the_m.php , which talks a little bit about the royalties that Internet broadcasters have to pay today. The Internet stations are worse off than terrestrial broadcasters because terrestrial stations only have to pay royalties to the song composers, whereas Internet broadcasters have to pay royalties to both the composers and to the performers.

If your audience is too small, then no it doesn't matter.

But with WiFi appearing in cars, I'm guessing that something IS gonna happen! Don't you?

I think the Internet is just a hair hotter than shortwave these days.

Alfredo_T, you ask, "How much money would you be willing to put into the station to keep it running?" Right now on Live365.com the price is about $25 per month, for global coverage, hi fidelity! :-0

People who love music and broadcasting, those who used to work in terrestrial radio, still have passion about reaching the masses with their "art." We still get off on blowing away that listener.

Just like crazy guys who form a band, the passion overcomes the petty objections...

But, does it really matter that your audience is spread out all over the globe if it is too small to be attractive to advertisers?

If you're a station in the Live365 model, it could work, or it is working, well, sort of. Unfortunately Live365 has to also shell out big dough for being at the cutting edge -- namely lawyers and lobbyists fighting to ensure internet broadcasters have access to the same playing field as terrestrial broadcasters, never mind a level one.

Kind of depends on how they do the commercials.

There are lots of options.

Incorporate product placement into the programming. "the mention" Feature brought to you by...

Musical product placement. Commercials that blend in more.

Fewer spots, but very highly targeted ones. Collect data from listener, then target spots that way.

Have the player display ads.

Pre-stream ads.

Small subscriptions to limit or reduce ads. This one is interesting to me because I don't know if somebody will pay for considerably less ads, or just no ads.

If the former is true, then all sorts of stuff opens up.

The more you listen, the more ads there are. Pay a little, knock them back to reasonable levels. Pay more and they go away for a while, pay more yet, and you are locked in, ad free for a greater length of time.

Instead of days, have the listeners purchase streaming time. That time is AD free, and is consumed while listening. When it runs out, they get a promo, right in the stream that lets them know this, then the ads slowly ramp up.

Listeners can earn AD free time by answering a few feedback questions. Again, I might put it in stream, so they hear it and might be inclined to click and earn. Just the announcement though, not the actual questions.

So then it's a quiz on the product positioners to prove they heard the stuff.

We might see significant innovation on how revenue is generated yet!

Live365 plays many ads, but not as many as FM, my theory is that if the audience is there, and they are, the advertisers will follow. Advertising on the Internet is actually quite big these days.

Egor sez: Live365 plays many ads, but not as many as FM, my theory is that if the audience is there, and they are, the advertisers will follow.

But it may take some time because advertisers seem stuck in the 20th Century. The thing about internet radio in general, and Live365 in particular, not only one knows who and how many are listening, and for how long, they also know WHERE they're listening from (and other details). It seems like that would trigger a swarm of advertisers over to the internet away from elsewhere.

Live365 would be running a heck of a lot more ad spots if they only had them. But they are able to sell more air time than ever before these days. So I suppose its coming.

I recently read that the internet had exceeded radio as an advertising medium!

You can pay Live 365 $24 for three months of vip account. Then you get to hear all (personal) stations without commercials.
I couldn't continue with Live 365. I pay Comcast $100 for Broadband and digital cable.

Check out the "reach" of this Live365 station, it is truly amazing! Making money? Not at all, but I think it shows the potential of the medium. It has taught me much about the global audience. And, in the United States, this station reaches just about every city. I've listed the results from the last 30 days, below the country breakout.

Enjoy, I think it's a small snapshot of our future!


Streams: Number of times the broadcast was launched.

TLH: Total listening hours (hours:minutes). Standard and ad-free listeners combined. 0:00 = listening for less than 1 minute.


Country Streams TLH

United States 5185 2768:44
Canada 1028 647:12
Brazil 1468 272:47
Sweden 233 139:39
Australia 342 131:50
United Kingdom 420 128:56
Germany 501 95:00
Spain 394 78:04
Philippines 217 71:04
China, People's Republic of 124 67:51
Japan 223 66:34
Mexico 338 62:21
Netherlands 231 56:06
Trinidad and Tobago 57 55:45
Switzerland 132 54:21
Greece 130 50:52
France 187 50:28
Israel 215 50:22
India 478 46:43
Romania 220 43:11
Chile 328 39:24
Denmark 73 38:03
Indonesia 152 35:30
Jamaica 31 34:21
Malaysia 124 32:23
Uruguay 110 32:02
Hungary 121 30:39
Italy 160 30:35
Morocco 167 29:49
Vietnam 148 28:00
Poland 130 25:54
Singapore 94 25:22
Russia 270 24:50
Saudi Arabia 142 24:01
Egypt 217 21:59
Ukraine 177 21:19
Belgium 35 19:29
Grenada 19 18:54
Bulgaria 77 17:50
Colombia 102 17:05
Peru 101 16:35
Turkey 154 16:35
Slovak Republic 46 15:28
Norway 103 15:21
Latvia 47 14:44
Macedonia, Former Yugoslav Republic 41 12:40
Venezuela 25 12:31
Thailand 114 11:41
El Salvador 20 11:22
Guadeloupe 41 10:59
Finland 44 10:46
Ireland 47 10:26
Algeria 170 10:17
Slovenia 40 10:08
Tunisia 47 9:53
Hong Kong 26 9:44
Czech Republic 119 9:12
Croatia/Hrvatska 37 8:58
United Arab Emirates 115 8:38
Argentina 80 7:38
Nigeria 261 7:22
Estonia 27 6:54
South Africa 42 6:40
Sri Lanka 87 6:32
(edited to comply with this website limits)
Totals: 17625 5838:17

***************************************

A city breakout is on my next posting

Here's a city breakout for the last 30 days of a live365 station,


Cities States Streams TLH

Washington DC (Hagerstown) DC, MD, PA, VA, WV 256 196:22
Kansas City KS, MO 125 126:56
New York CT, NJ, NY, PA 304 124:52
Chicago IL, IN 161 119:08
Los Angeles CA 177 113:02
Boston (Manchester) MA, NH, VT 143 105:17
Atlanta AL, GA, NC 134 85:22
Cleveland OH 111 73:22
Louisville IN, KY 66 64:32
Seattle - Tacoma WA 206 63:09
San Antonio TX 29 62:02
Philadelphia DE, NJ, PA 101 58:18
Houston TX 108 58:02
Dallas - Fort Worth TX 136 57:58
San Francisco - Oakland - San Jose CA 132 48:21
Honolulu HI 36 48:12
Columbus, OH OH 45 47:22
Phoenix AZ, CA 86 44:37
Las Vegas NV 90 44:19
Sacramento - Stockton - Modesto CA 53 43:49
Orlando - Daytona Beach - Melbourne FL 113 42:51
Salt Lake City CO, ID, NV, UT 43 42:00
Miami - Fort Lauderdale FL 105 38:35
Tampa - Saint Petersburg (Sarasota) FL 81 35:29
Austin, TX TX 35 33:03
Detroit MI 102 29:59
Chattanooga AL, GA, NC, TN 21 29:29
Nashville KY, TN 44 29:11
Sioux Falls (Mitchell) IA, MN, NE, SD 32 28:58
Johnstown - Altoona PA 18 28:51
Greensboro - High Point - Winston-Salem NC, VA 48 27:35
Columbia, SC SC 39 27:25
Little Rock - Pine Bluff AR 41 26:32
Springfield, MO AR, MO 13 24:42
Pittsburgh MD, PA, WV 26 24:39
Jacksonville, Brunswick FL, GA 39 23:19
Baltimore MD 60 23:09
Birmingham (Anniston and Tuscaloosa) AL 47 22:16
Minneapolis - Saint Paul MN, WI 43 21:53
Omaha IA, MO, NE 14 21:29
Hartford & New Haven CT 24 20:44
Denver CO, MT, NE, NV, SD, WY 42 19:35
Monterey - Salinas CA 13 17:39
Indianapolis IN 19 16:37
Portland, OR OR, WA 56 15:40
Buffalo NY, PA 18 15:04
Raleigh - Durham (Fayetteville) NC, VA 96 14:54
Milwaukee WI 35 14:38
Madison WI 14 12:27
AOL or N/A AOL or N/A 50 12:23
Jackson, MS MS 14 12:17
Memphis AR, MS, MO, TN 20 11:37
West Palm Beach - Fort Pierce FL 12 11:24
Columbus, GA AL, GA 13 11:24
Bakersfield CA 83 11:16
Providence - New Bedford MA, RI 40 11:10
Charleston-Huntington KY, WV 32 11:09
Knoxville KY, TN 22 11:08
Greenville - Spartansburg - Asheville - Anderson GA, NC, SC 25 10:55
Des Moines - Ames IA, MO 17 10:38
Tulsa KS, OK 18 10:06
Colorado Springs - Pueblo CO 22 10:06
Flint - Saginaw - Bay City MI 14 9:52
Greenville - New Bern - Washington NC 6 9:27
Cedar Rapids - Waterloo & Dubuque IA 17 9:20
Cincinnati IN, KY, OH 26 8:22
Harrisburg - Lancaster - Lebanon - York PA 27 8:21
Lexington KY 72 8:17
Waco - Temple - Bryan TX 15 8:00
Albany - Schenectady - Troy MA, NY, VT 10 7:50
Rochester, NY NY 18 7:49
Missoula MT 15 7:31
Norfolk - Portsmouth - Newport News NC, VA 19 7:29
Oklahoma City OK 12 7:16
Roanoke - Lynchburg VA, WV 14 7:04
Rapid City MT, SD, WY 3 6:58
Wichita - Hutchinson KS, NE, OK 26 6:17
Paducah - Cape Girardeau - Harrisburg - Mt Vernon IL, KY, MO, TN 16 6:15
Palm Springs CA 17 6:15
Florence - Myrtle Beach NC, SC 38 5:54
Topeka KS 8 5:27
Tallahassee - Thomasville FL, GA 5 5:08
Spokane ID, MT, OR, WA 11 5:02
Shreveport AR, LA, OK, TX 22 4:58
Youngstown OH, PA 17 4:54
Lima OH 2 4:52
Saint Louis IL, MO 42 4:31
Dayton IN, OH 14 4:26
Panama City FL 9 4:23
Salisbury DE, MD 4 4:20
Toledo MI, OH 13 4:18
Huntsville - Decatur (Florence) AL, TN 23 4:17
Charlotte NC, SC 28 4:13
Wilkes Barre - Scranton PA 18 4:09
Evansville IL, IN, KY 14 4:00
Augusta GA, SC 16 3:59
Clarksburg - Weston WV 3 3:56
San Diego CA 15 3:55
Macon GA 6 3:48
Tucson (Sierra Vista) AZ 12 3:40
Abilene - Sweetwater TX 9 3:37
Amarillo KS, NM, TX 2 3:33
Binghamton NY 7 3:31
Grand Rapids - Kalamazoo - Battle Creek MI 24 3:30
Mobile - Pensacola (Fort Walton Beach) AL, FL, MS 14 3:30
Fort Myers - Naples FL 7 3:14
Anchorage AK 19 3:06
Green Bay - Appleton MI, WI 2 2:58
Rochester - Mason City - Austin IA, MN 4 2:47
Traverse City - Cadillac MI 3 2:40
Lafayette, IN IN 6 2:32
Monroe - El Dorado AR, LA 5 2:27
Albuquerque - Santa Fe AZ, CO, NM 20 2:26
Lincoln & Hastings - Kearney KS, NE 13 2:24
Fort Wayne IN, OH 9 2:20
Portland - Auburn ME, NH, VT 4 2:19
Baton Rouge LA, MS 4 2:18
Syracuse NY 7 2:17
Erie PA 8 2:03
Duluth - Superior MI, MN, WI 3 2:00
Mankato IA, MN 1 2:00
Lansing MI 2 1:47
Tri-Cities, TN-VA KY, TN, VA 8 1:41
Champaign & Springfield - Decatur IL 5 1:40
Bowling Green KY 1 1:36
Eugene OR 3 1:19
La Crosse - Eau Claire MN, WI 10 1:18
Yakima - Pasco - Richland - Kennewick OR, WA 6 1:15
Minot - Bismarck - Dickinson MT, ND, SD 4 0:55
New Orleans LA, MS 8 0:55
Jackson, TN TN 8 0:51
Springfield - Holyoke MA 4 0:48
Harlingen - Weslaco - Brownsville - McAllen TX 6 0:46
Davenport - Rock Island - Moline IL, IA 3 0:44
Terre Haute IL, IN 5 0:43
Richmond - Petersburg VA 11 0:35
Savannah GA, SC 7 0:33
Juneau AK 2 0:32
Fargo - Valley City MN, ND 5 0:32
Columbia - Jefferson City MO 4 0:31
Burlington - Plattsburgh NH, NY, VT 3 0:28
Dothan AL, GA 4 0:22
Saint Joseph KS, MO 2 0:21
Jonesboro AR 1 0:20
Tyler - Longview (Lufkin & Nacogdoches) TX 14 0:18
South Bend - Elkhart IN, MI 3 0:18
Reno CA, NV 7 0:16
Joplin - Pittsburg KS, MO, OK 1 0:15
Corpus Christi TX 2 0:15
Fresno - Visalia CA 5 0:14
Odessa - Midland NM, TX 5 0:13
Albany, GA GA 4 0:12
El Paso NM, TX 6 0:10
Fairbanks AK 5 0:09
Charleston, SC SC 2 0:09
Twin Falls ID 4 0:08
Medford - Klamath Falls CA, OR 1 0:07
Wichita Falls & Lawton OK, TX 1 0:06
Lake Charles LA 5 0:06
Yuma - El Centro AZ, CA 4 0:06
Billings MT, WY 3 0:06
Montgomery (Selma) AL 4 0:05
Parkersburg OH, WV 2 0:02
Sherman, TX - Ada, OK OK, TX 1 0:02
Elmira NY, PA 3 0:02
Biloxi - Gulfport MS 4 0:02
Wilmington NC 1 0:01
Boise ID, OR 3 0:01
Bangor ME 3 0:01
Hattiesburg - Laurel MS 1 0:01
Marquette MI, WI 2 0:01
Wheeling - Steubenville OH, WV 2 0:01
Utica NY 1 0:01
Rockford IL 1 0:01
Grand Junction - Montrose CO 1 0:00
Bluefield - Beckley - Oak Hill VA, WY 2 0:00
Beaumont - Port Arthur TX 1 0:00
Fort Smith - Fayetteville - Springdale - Rogers AR, OK 1 0:00
Harrisonburg VA, WV 1 0:00
Lafayette, LA LA 1 0:00
Totals: 5185 2768:44

With Washington DC being top on the city list there, I have to wonder if those stats are pasted from a broadcaster named Rockland / Craig.

Are those his stats? He's got an interesting story, if those are his. I used to know him a little bit.

DC is also the current city Hughes Net routes their satellite broadband link through. Also, if the station owner has HughesNet, that could explain a particularly high TLH from that city.

I think AOL servers are there too, not sure.