http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26291109/

Thoughts?

This is a sticky situation. I think kids do need to get vaccinated, but I also believe that Autism and ADD can be the cause from these vaccinations. Every child is different, some handle the vaccines and some can't. Its a bit odd that ADD is on the rise today, it seems that every kid has ADD today. What causes a child to get ADD? nobody knows, yet the government is so sure that its not caused by Vaccines.
I don't trust the government.

There is no scientific evidence that ADD or autism is associated with vaccines. ADD and autism are on the rise because we are able to diagnose it. Years ago, those same kids had the same issues, but we called them loners, weirdos, hyperactive, etc.

My belief is that parents feel the need to blame "something" on the fact that their kid is different, rather than just accepting the fact that some things just don't have an explanation, they just happen and it's part of our human existance.

My concern is that when parents fall prey to the misinformation going around about vaccines that they are putting our entire population at risk. Feel free to put your own kid at risk, but when your actions could affect me or my family, then I have a problem.

While I don't completely trust the government either, I do trust the science involved, and as far as I can tell, science is on the side of vaccines being the better way to go.

I've seen kids who have had VIOLENT reactions to vaccines. Every child is different, some can handle them with no problem and some can't. WHile I agree you're better off vaccinating your kids than not, I still don't believe the government saying there is no proof and Zero chance of a child getting autism or ADD from vaccines. You're putting a FOREIGN substance into a childs body that contains more than just a dead virus. How do we not know that it is not causing brain damage in 3% of the population of kids that are getting vaccinated?
The government tells us so, thats why? Well I don't believe that!
Again, I think that children should be vaccinated but I still don't buy the fact that vaccines are not causing any long term damage on a small percentage of kids.
And Vitalogy, If your kid had Autism or severe ADD, I think you would be a lot more skeptical of Vaccines.

But then again, Im still skeptic about cellphones and cancer. I still think long term cell phone use does expose you to cancer.
I don't trust anybody including the government and even scientists.

The big problem with parents choosing not to vaccinate their children is in my opinion when young or just plain ignorant parents decide they are not going to vaccinate their children because someone else they know is doing the same. They don't talk about with there doctors and they don't take the time to actually research the pros and cons.

My niece just turned 21 and at about the same time had her first child. She stated to her family ie her fathers side of the family that she wasn't going to vaccinate the child. We talked her out of it after some pretty tense moments of arguments before she finally came to her senses.

My neice is a very gullible, niave, and ignorant person. Its sad that the education system and her parents failed her so badly. I could go on all day!

I don't think we know enough yet about specifically Autism. I also think its way to premature to say that vaccines are indeed the cause.

There's always a tiny, tiny chance a child will have a severe reaction to a vaccine. This has been known since the beginning of vaccines, and the reason the trade-off has always been made is of the overwhelming benefit of the vaccines to most people. Remember, we no longer live in a time of polio wards, but the incredible pain and suffering from diseases like that completely dwarfs the very tiny risk of a reaction.

As Vitalogy says, there is no evidence that vaccines have any link to a rise in ADD and autism in kids. In fact, every study that's ever been done shows that autism is rising at the same rate among kids who are NOT vaccinated as those who are vaccinated. That should pretty much end the discussion of that topic.

Unfortunately, some parents make decisions about vaccinations based on fear and misinformation, not on logic and facs. They read lots of stuff on the internet and hear testimonials from non-scientists and pseudo-scientists claiming "evidence" of a link between vaccines and the rise of autism in particular. A few years ago, these people swore up and down that the mercury in these vaccines was the cause. So the mercury was removed a few years back, and since then the rate of autism has not declined among kids being vaccinated. So I guess the conspiracy theorists have moved on to some other wild explanation that sounds plausible even if it isn't.

I think every parent skeptical about vaccinations should watch a documentary about whooping cough, polio, etc. and see what these terrible diseases uses to do to children and adults before vaccines came about. Because we seem to have forgotten.

Andrew

Does anyone think the sheer number of vaccines give to children entering school could be part of the problem?

I just looked up PPS reqiurements for this year. My goodness!

Diptheria / Tetanus
Polio
MMR
Hepatitis A (new req this year)
Hep B
Influenza Type B
Varicella (chickenpox)

and Tdap, by 7th Grade.

That list is required of all children entering school, Pre-K and K inclusive. To be fully effective, many of them require 2-3 doses.

I know I didn't have that many, but I'm 44. Many of these were not even developed back then. I haven't even had a booster, except for tetanus prior to surgery, since HS graduation, and seriously, can't remember the last time I had even a common cold. Never have had the flu, ever.

When we're exposed to these diseases, it's not all at once, it's in phases. Mumps may go around. You get it, or you don't, your immune system works through it. Then the next comes around.

I think there's a balance somewhere between what you really should be immunized against, like Polio, and some things your immune system should be allowed to fight against.

Also, I think parents should take into consideration the risk of exposure before just blanket immunizing for every possible thing. Are the chances of a 5 year old contracting Hepatitis ( for instance ) really high enough to warrant immunization at that age?

It just seems like a lot of stress to subject a young body to, all at once.

Entre_nous you are probally so healthy because as a child your parents weren't afraid if you got dirty. Whereas this generation is obsessed with germs and cleanliness. Its silly really how obsessed our society today is of germs.

IMHO we are long overdue for a major outbreak of something most likely a deadly influenza strain. Ok so maybe not so deadly in this country but it would wreak havoc on our health care system.

It just seems like a lot of stress to subject a young body to, all at once.

But then on the other hand, catching a major illness that there was a vaccine for would be a major stress generator.

When you have your kid in a high risk group setting (other kids at school) and if you knew how some others in that group lived, you'd get all the vaccines.

As a parent, its one thing to lose a child for something out of your control, but to lose a child for something that you had the option to prevent, but didn't, would be devastating. My opinion, of course.

Agreed, Shyguy. We just went outside and played! With animals, and other unsanitized things I'm thankful for a hardy immune system every day when people come in with this cold or that allergy.

I try, whenever possible, to avoid hand sanitizers and antibacterial soaps, unless absolutely necessary, like public washrooms, etc. I am kinda funny about door handles: I try not to touch them, and if I do, I have to wash my hands right away. Thanks, Gram!

I really think that killing all the germs, all the time, and not letting our bodies do some work defending us is a bad combination, possibly making a us more vulnerable to a bug like you described.

You're right, Skeptical, but we've all been exposed to most of this stuff since beginning school, had some illness, and lived to tell the tale. I went to school with a girl who missed a whole year due to scarlet fever. Horrible.

It's comparable to the antibiotics dilemma: we make a better one, the bacteria mutates. Then we need an even better antibiotic...cycle continues.

I'm not saying withold the vaccinations, or the antibiotics, for that matter. They work a whole lot better than prayer alone, as we've seen lately. But do the research, find out WHY your child has to have this or that RIGHT NOW, and what the efficacy is.

About 13 years ago, I was following a mailing list discussion on vegetarian and vegan diets. I posed the question, "what advice do doctors and nutritionists have on vegetarianism?" The answers that I got were along the lines of, "you can't trust them because they don't understand these diets. They would probably tell you it's OK as long as you eat chicken or fish. Just talk to some vegans and they'll tell you what to eat to not get sick." I think that this is the same kind of mentality that the vaccine skeptics have: they don't understand or appreciate the process by which medical science tests things like vaccines, and they don't understand the pitfalls of relying on anecdotal evidence.

I think that the linked article nicely illustrated how relying only on anecdotal evidence can get people in trouble. Some children aren't immunized and they end up squeaking by because the pathogens have been wiped out in the local area because most children have been immunized against those diseases. The parents of the non-immunized child then say, "see, my son (or daughter) isn't immunized and (s)he is doing just fine...." (anecdotal evidence). Then one of the non-immunized children goes somewhere where the pathogen can be found (as in the case of the girl who visited Romania), gets sick, and infects all of her non-immunized peers.

What worries me is that today, because of the Internet, everyday people can go around spreading misinformation and promoting shoddy thinking far and wide, and it is very difficult to call them out on it. On top of that, in my opinion, Internet discussion forums often seem to have a culture of giving a lot of credence to anecdotal evidence.

Humans were designed to eat meat, that's why we have teeth.

As far as I am concerned, vegetarian and vegan just describe ways of preparing food. When I got into the vegetarian discussion that I mentioned above, I was trying to a vegetarian diet. I say trying because it was easy to find vegetarian meal selections at my college's cafeteria, but when I went out on my first internship, I quickly learned that from an "office culture" point of view, it was not a good idea to turn down invitations to group lunches because they were held at establishments that did not cater to vegetarians. Maybe I am too cynical, but I came out of the the vegetarian experiment with the opinion that following a strict vegetarian or vegan diet is primarily a "feel good" thing. For some folks, the "feel good" factor outweighs the hassle factor. For those who prepare all of their food at home, the hassle factor is nil.

While I could not do it myself I think that in this day and age it is possibly easier to actively and healthly (is that a word) be a vegan and or vegatarian if your not phobic about your options. In Salem we have a great market called LifeSource which caters to the granola crowd. No pun intended. There they produce some of the best vegan prepared foods that I have ever had in my life infact some products that there bakery puts out I would buy over an animal product. To die for buttermilk chocolate cake. But anyway with the amount of decent soy products out there it is possible in addition to some decent whole grains and fresh sustainable and locally grown produce why not?

I could do it but I would eventually have to give in at the very least to my desire to eat poultry and fish. I have already proven to myself that I can live without pork or beef.

But pork fat does rule and everyone needs a good piece of steak every once and awhile!

everyone needs a good piece of steak every once and awhile!

Oddly enough, I have no desire for steak, but put a good pizza out I'll abandon my vegan ways before you can say "who ate that pizza."

Humans were designed to eat meat, that's why we have teeth.

Exactly!!!

If God had not intended for us to eat the animals, He wouldn't have made them out of meat!

And Shyguy, I second your comment; "Pork fat rules"!

I like pig (and cow). A lot!

I actually like to have pork and beef every now and then, and I like to drink a beer every now and then. I am glad that I don't have any religious convictions that would say, "no no no" to these pleasures. But, if I eat too much pork fat and develop coronary artery disease or if I drink too much and destroy my liver, then that is my own fault.

Arteries aside it is my opinion that you have to try really hard to ruin your liver.

Skep this place in Salem mentioned above LifeSource makes fresh vegan pizza. I have tried it a couple of times but it just doesn't come close to the real thing.

If I am gonna eat pizza and am in Portland its all about Apizza Schoals. Damned tasty and well worth the wait. White pie or Bianca anyone?

With the average turnout of the last couple of PDXradio get togethers it might be a good location to host our next one as you can make a reservation for what 8-12 people?

Here today yet another study showing no link between a vaccine (Measles) and Autism:

http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSN0327603720080904

Andrew

Here is a few interesting clips on vaccines
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrIM2hwrLoc&feature=related