I wonder if any in Portland will be closed down?

http://finance.comcast.net/www/news.html?x=http://www.origin.comcast.akadns.net/ data/news/2008/07/01/999396.xml

Let's hope so....

Whats ridiculous with Starbucks is that a starbucks store will open up, than a few months later a new Starbucks will open up just down the street.25 and 30 percent of a Starbucks shop's revenue is cannibalized when a new store opens nearby.
Starbucks is Over-saturated which is starting to bite them in the ass. Can somebody please give Howard Shutlz, the memo.

I am a regular Starbucks patron. I hope my favorite local store does not close; I doubt it - they seem to do good business. I've been in other stores that seem fairly dead and wonder why they stay open. Where I live, there are eight(!) Starbucks within about a 15 minute walk. Surely at least one if not two of these will close. On MLK near the Convention Center, they took over two Coffee People stores within the last year or so, to add to three other existing stores within 1/2 mile. I imagine at least one of those stores will close.

Starbucks in Oregon are lucky that they have no competition from Dunkin Donuts, which is giving Starbucks a run for their money in other regions of the US. It's hard to imagine how Dunkin Donuts went out of business here; elsewhere, there are zillions of stores. So maybe the Portland stores, numerous as they are, will largely escape.

Andrew

Justin_timberfake writes:
Starbucks is Over-saturated which is starting to bite them in the ass. Can somebody please give Howard Shutlz, the memo

I think somebody did, thus today's announcement.

Did you ever see the old Onion story about a Starbucks opening up in the restroom of another Starbucks?

Andrew

Yeah, that one is just great!

Love the Onion.

I think this overbuild was deliberate. Where it was successful, Starbucks basically snuffed out the majority of smaller coffee places.

Now that they have the marketshare, they can scale down just enough to make it work well, and begin to leverage it for lots of stuff besides coffee.

I still think the day is going to come where you can go to one of these places, get your Joe and load up your portable media player with news and entertainment for the day, all on the same transaction.

Portable media will be just another value added condiment, or could be full on big media purchases right there at the store.

I quit the place though. Back to making my own Joe, at the office and at home. It's almost as good, and one hell of a lot cheaper in terms of both time and raw dollars.

I don't think Starbucks is thinking too much about leveraging their existing stores much beyond coffee right now. Their missteps in the last few years have included such blunders as introducing breakfast sandwiches that few wanted. All they did was make Starbucks stores smell like burnt toast instead of coffee. Right now, Starbucks is trying to learn from these painful mistakes and try to bring people back for the basics.

Of course, they can't help the fact that the economy is in the tank right now, where people are putting the money that used to fill a coffee cup into their gas tanks. But I think they will be fine once the economy picks up again - assuming that isn't forever...

Andrew

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9iMgSNrwv4

Glad we still have this guy.

No diet pop in Starbucks, so . . . I can count the times I've been in Starbucks on one hand.

I miss Coffee People. When I started drinking espresso drinks, they were purchased out of the Coffee People location at 23rd and Hoyt.
From there, it was the Coffee People Hawthorne location. The people were great and the drinks were terrific.

As for today, I make a daily Starbuck's run -- and don't regret it. I enjoy the product I purchase and the people who work there are generally very friendly and accommodating. I must say though a Starbuck's cappuccino isn't nearly as good as a Coffee People cappuccino. Starbuck's needs to teach their employees the difference between wet and dry cappuccino drinks.

Hey Talpdx- I still miss coffee people too.
I really like this coffee place called "Java man". There are about 5-6 locations in portland. Their coffee is WAAAAY better than Starbucks. They made me one of the best Mocha's I've ever had in my life. If you Spot a "Java man" I highly recomend stoping!

SEATTLE
Starbucks closing
600 stores across U.S.

Starbucks Corp. said Tuesday it will close 600 of its 7,257 company-owned stores in the United States in the next year and cut back the number of new stores it had planned to open.
Starbucks said 70 percent of the stores slated to be closed had opened since the start of the 2006 fiscal year.


(From the Columbian, 2 July 2008 section E page 1; "Daily Roundup".)

=======================================================================
I can honestly say I have been seeing something like this forthcoming for a pretty long time, like, since about the late 90's or so. I used to enjoy the Starbucks on Mill Plain and Chkalov (used to be a Long John Silver's many many ages ago, didja know that? ;o) but lately I have been going to the Peet's over on 164th.

Hey? Peet's suports OPB!! That, and I work in that area of town. I think that pretty much says it right there.

I think we may see a comeback of little "mom & pop" espresso stands like we saw about a decade ago, the very types Starbucks helped kill off initially. That is assuming the economy clears up favourably while SB is down for the count. I wouldn't really place any bets on that happening any time soon, but it is a possibility...........

Starbucks should put thier efforts into developing a car that runs on coffee.

Two problems solved!

I have lots of little indie coffee shops near me, besides Starbucks. Why do I rarely patronize them? Honestly, service for one thing isn't always that great or professional. Where I live, a lot of the baristas are kids with piercings and tattoos and when I walk, all whitebread and all, I feel like I'm from another planet. Sometimes when I am trying to buy something I get an unenthusiastic "Whaddya want?" attitude, as if I were intruding on their homework time. Sometimes they are playing loud, obnoxious music. Sometimes the chairs and tables are uncomfortable - too close together, hard seats, etc.

Say what you want about Starbucks, but they do provide a good (if sometimes dull) product with exceptional service, in a comfortable environment. I tend to go to coffee places and work for 2-3 hours on my laptop, so the environment is important to me.

I do have a Peet's near me and have been there a few times, think they are also a good place, but they don't offer WiFi (free or othewise). There are some free networks that you can kinda pick up but not reliably. It's maddening to be working on something and have your internet keep fading in and out. I just can't put up with it for too long.

Andrew

What I'm getting fed up with (please pardon the pun) regarding Starbucks and virtually all coffee shops today is how expensive their products are!

I'm OK with going to one of these places and buying their products on occasion when somebody else suggests going to the coffee shop to conduct a group meeting or activity. In that situation, I can rationalize the purchase in that since I am in the coffee shop, sitting on one of their chairs, I should support them by buying something. If I am on my own and I want coffee and a pastry or a piece of cake, then I would go to a diner.

There is a small cafe I used to go to when meeting clients.

I was meeting my party of 3-4 people at this cafe and after our introductions they all went up and bought something. I chose not to purchase anything simply because I wasn't hungry and I wanted to concentrate on the meeting.

Once the meeting was over my clients left and the owner of the little cafe came up to me and said I need to pay a 10-dollar meeting fee. I said a what?

He was miffed that I didn't purchase anything. Totally ignoring the fact that everyone else in my meeting had bought something. He was a bit rough and rude but I blew it off as a one-time deal.

A few months later I had another meeting. Was going to meet at another place but it was closed so we went back to this small cafe. As my potential clients and I began to gather, a few were deciding on what to purchase. The owner recognized me and in front of others in his store asked if I was going to have meeting? I said yes and he again asked for a 10-dollar meeting charge. I asked him to explain that again to me because nowhere in his cafe was it posted that such a charge even existed.

One of my potential clients asked, "do you mean we have to purchase something from you just to have a meeting?" The owner said yes. And with that the 5 of us got up and as we were leaving the owner said in a loud voice, "whatever he's selling you I'd be careful."

It was all I could do to hold in what I really wanted to say. However someone in the group pretty much said what we all wanted to say in front of all his customers.

The guy is a total jerk and I have never seen him smile. I do agree Alfredo that there is a sense that one should purchase something from a place like that to support it. However I also feel that good customer service would bring others back including myself.

Like anything sales or marketing related you don't always make the initial sale, but if you position yourself right with good customer service in many cases you will eventually get that sale.

I sent out an email to all our neighbors and friends I knew who did frequent that little cafe and they have all told me they no longer go there.

Please post what business this is so we know not to support such a jerk. I believe that the consumer should speak with their dollars AND word of mouth when it comes to bad treatment like that.

Chris, although I've never had that happen at any of the local coffee places I've patronized, that's totally characteristic of what I mean about some of these indie places. They just don't know how to run a retail business, have no clue how to treat customers. It can be baffling, honestly.

FWIW, Starbucks will let you come into their stores - assuming it's not overflow-busy so you are taking chairs from paying customers - and buy nothing, even bring in your own food. I've seen people do it lots of times. I've done it myself a few times, but given how much money I have spent and continue to spend at Starbucks, I don't feel the least bit guilty. And I've never seen Starbucks run anyone like that out of their stores. (Muttering homeless people? Yes. Harmless people not bothering others? No.) Their hands-off attitude makes for a pleasant experience for the customer who, most likely, will come back and buy something next time.

Sometimes people talk about how all these great mom-and-pop coffee places just get run out of business by Starbucks, but the truth is, a lot of them suck. Until Starbucks came along, they stayed in business because there was nowhere else to go. Once customers had a better place to go - even a bland chain like Starbucks, with good service and a professional environment, no wonder they abandon some of these sucky indie coffee places forcing them out of business.

Andrew

"I sent out an email to all our neighbors and friends I knew who did frequent that little cafe and they have all told me they no longer go there"


That's the best way to deal with guys like this.

These small businesses are cut throat if they want to stay in business! They can't afford to have a group of people come in and take up their table space and not purchase anything. Even if its one person not eating. They have to be making money constantly. Im not defending the Jerk that was rude to Chris, but I think out of respect Chris should have purchased something tiny, regardless if he was hungry or not. EVery penny helps with these already struggeling mom and pop shops. The way the owner talked to chris was absolutely uncalled for,but I would be annoyed if I was the owner and not every person in the group were purchasing something.

Beano, it's not clear that Chris and his party were taking up ALL the table space in the place, first of all. If there were empty tables when Chris's party was in there, then the store lost absolutely no business due to Chris not making a purchase. Secondly, if a single person had come in alone before Chris, he/she could have taken the entire table/last table; instead, Chris brought in a whole group and everyone but Chris made a purchase. So, I disagree with your notion that Chris was costing the store anything; on the contrary, he brought them business, new customers perhaps who might have come back. Retail stores thrive from repeat business, not a single purchase. If only one person Chris brought into the store became a repeat customer, that's a lot of future business.

Instead, the dimwitted business owner drove Chris out and potentially lost him and lot of other customers, forever. Surely he treats other customers with the same attitude he treated Chris - and that's why, when a Starbucks opens up across the street with a professional attitude, the indie coffee shop owner will be out of business in a week. That is not how you run a successful retail business.

Andrew

About a block and half away is another locally owned cafe/bakery where I now do most of my business meetings. I have come to know there work hours so that I can arrange my meetings.

I have met many clients and potential clients there for the better part of a year and half. Not once have they ever asked me to leave for not purchasing anything. Usually the times I do make a purchase are when I'm not with clients or with my wife or kids. Then I can really enjoy the food and company. My mind is on the meeting and doing good customer service for my business. This cafe/bakery gets my return business at other times.

What I hate is young, 20 something hipster coffee shop or restaurant employees behave as if they are doing you a favor by making your drink or taking your meal order. I worked at a very popular SE Portland restaurant years ago and saw it firsthand. Surprising though, customers didn't seem to mind; in fact they returned in droves – and tipped generously.

How many Dutch Bros. are in the Portland Metro area? Yeah there business model really isn't set up for an urban enviroment but I think they would do well to create a urban friendly model to continue their expansion. In the Salem-Keizer area I think that its an even tie between those who are loyal to Starbucks and those who are loyal to Dutch Bros.

"Please post what business this is so we know not to support such a jerk."

I feel a bit uncomfortable posting the name of the place however Vita if you really want to know send me an email and I will gladly share it.

I would never share your email with anyone just so you know.

It's very important to vote with your feet. Spot on Deane.

I also believe it's equally important to let the proprietor know why. (this guy is a moron)

Beano, collecting $10 for the meeting is just lame. Here's part of why:

The cost to open and run the establishment is a sunk cost. It's gonna happen no matter what. If nobody walks in, these costs would still be paid. That's what I mean by sunk costs. Having the place be open and ready to do business is money spent no matter what.

Each patron that walks in presents as an opportunity cost, not a real cost. This is a soft cost, not a hard one as in the owners bank account changed as somebody walked in the door.

(that's a key point to understand)

When one opens the establishment, there is an expectation that some will come and choose not to purchase. That potential to purchase is the return on the investment of hard, sunk costs.

If this is not acceptable, then you "cover" that to pay back the sunk cost of running the establishment. Generally, for this to be an equitable value proposition to the customer, there needs to be some additional attraction that justifies paying to just be there, otherwise the sunk costs are just part of doing business. So a club would ask for a cover, because just being there brings value. Maybe they have a band, or something worth just being there for as a value added attraction.

That's the difference.

So, let's say the margin made on goods minus labor ends up being $3.00 average per head, and that Chris walks in with 3 other people.

Now, they are not just passers by, so they would not be opportunities, unless they consume so much space that other passers by could have filled.

Being there does have value, in that it's a nice place to meet, food is good, service is good, etc...

However, that's not true for just anybody, so it's not the kind of thing that can be covered, because doing so would lower the value proposition for enough people to be not worth the money made against the sunk costs as to be worth it.

Net loss in that too many opportunities to sell would be lost, in that only those people that saw value would pay the cover, as opposed to just anybody thinking about coming in to try the food and service!

Chris then brings in $12.00 of potential profit, with a 4 person meeting.

Three of the 4 purchase, meaning the owner earned $9.00 for only a $3.00 opportunity cost, and that cost is the opportunity lost on Chris, who did not purchase.

That's a nice freaking return, and it's soft money, not hard money! (no actual dollars were paid to get Chris in there)

People actually pay to increase their opportunities, and that's where AD's come in. Those costs are actually hard costs, and it would be reasonable to ask for compensation on those, if investments were made to make just being there something worth doing on that basis alone; otherwise, what ADs do is buy opportunities, and not every one of those converts.

That's just how it is.

So, if the owner of the business advertised that it was meeting friendly, they would also have to add some value to justify that ad. Maybe wireless, partitioned rooms and or booths, etc...

Now, setting things up for meetings, in order to get people like Chris in the building, would require some additional investment, or perhaps just some understanding that meetings will be given some consideration of some kind.

That comes with a cost. It may be minor, but it does cost.

None of these things happened here, meaning the owner did nothing to justify charging for that fee. They literally were asking Chris to pay the $3.00, and then some, so they could go ahead and make the $9.00 they did anyway, when they made no investment in like kind.

That's something for nothing and it's just not ok.

Here's the really stupid part. Said owner has lost Chris over a few $10 meetings, which really cost him $0, but he does not get that.

Now that those meetings have moved to a different location, that $9.00 profit now goes away, times the number of meetings.

It does not take all that many meetings to very easily see that $10 charge was short sighted, given the potential opportunities Chris brought to the table.

As word gets around, multiply those annoyed people by $3.00 each and the damage is significant. They will find that out next quarter or two when they add up the dollars.

Being clueless, they won't see what happened, and will just raise prices, cut wages, or do some other straightforward MBA type thing to compensate.

As they do, their ability to compete is diminished, while their peers down the street improves. (more opportunities per day at a lower overall cost to run the establishment)

Over time, this will impact that little place costing them many times more than that $10 and potentially causing them to seriously change how they do business, or if they do business.

Jerk. Hope it happens fast.

Doesn't anybody make their own coffee anymore? And drink it in their own living room?

Starbucks is the Emperors New Clothes of coffee. Take away the hipster doofusness, and it's just a coffee shop. Coffee. Cup 'o Joe.

So they're closing 600 stores? That just means instead of getting my doofus coffee at the Starbucks inside the Safeway store, I'll have to go 50 yards further to get my doofus coffee at the stand-alone Starbucks across the street. What an inconvenience for me!

And this is about ME, not Starbucks. Don't forget that.

I do that every day.

It's a big savings over Starbucks.

Better Joe too, because I can just tune the brew just right over time.

I think Starbucks coffee tastes like dog shit! It is burnt, disgusting coffee. I think the best coffee is Maxwell House at the Grocery store. Best cup of coffee I ever had was the one i made with my Maxwell House Coffee.

Screw Starbucks and Screw Howard Schultz- that greedy bastard!

THIS JUST IN!!

From the pages of The Columbian, 30 July 2008, page E-1........

Starbucks is fad. Fads die as quickly as they are born. Sometimes quicker.

When I'm at work, I drink the break room coffee, as it is free. I rarely drink coffee at home but when I do, I brew my own. Wobboh has it spot-on: it was hipsters (and later yuppies) that made Starbucks a smash hit by enthusiastically buying their overpriced coffee and snacks.

The last time I was at Starbucks I asked for the barista for some fresh Coffee because if You look at those huge Coffeepots at Starbucks it is Manditory that they change the house Coffee every 30 minutes. I glanced at the Coffee Pot and it was at 29 minutes. The dumb woman said she just changed it. BULLSHIT, the timer says 29 minutes. I want a Fresh Cup of F'ing coffee.

For anyone buying Coffee at Starbucks, PAY CLOSE ATTENTION TO THE TIMERS ON THE COFFEE POT! If it is past 30 minutes, demand fresh coffee because the pots should be changed every 30 minutes, but I have found that often they are NOT! just an FYI!

I'm no hipster, so I guess I must be a yuppie for patronizing Starbucks. I don't drink coffee and have never tasted theirs, but I do find their stores - even if generic and sometimes bland - to have excellent customer service and a decent cup of hot chocolate, plus a pleasant environment to work in with your laptop when you are self-employed and go stir crazy at home. I've mentioned here before the issues I've had with the numerous local indy coffee places I've tried.

Andrew

Just an FYI...she probably DID just change it. In fact, it was probably still brewing, since the brew time is 4 minutes.

Those timers run backwards from 29:00 to 0:00, then chime.

LOL

Now Justin, be a man and go in and apologize to her. Be sincere too. It'll make her day.

I've been going to Starbucks almost every day for many years now. They tell me they dump the coffee after 1 hour, not 30 minutes.

I've been to a total of one indy coffee shop I didn't like and won't be back to (and the strange thing is that place has plenty of competition close by)...
The rest of them are either great and/or open 24 hours.
As for Starbucks, I can say I've had their coffee and I don't like it as much as other places. Another thing they've done a great job of doing is being a destination of choice for the non-fast-food crowd that want to meet with each other in towns/cities with few (if any) other choices.

I get a decaf mocha a few times a week and really enjoy it. I'd have one every day if it was less calories.

They tell me they dump the coffee after 1 hour, not 30 minutes.

Thats disgusting Newflyer. No wonder the coffee is CRAP, they are serving you old coffee.
30 minutes and they are supposed to put on fresh new coffee, Its sad that some places forget.

I just cannot bring myself to do Starbucks.

1) while I like dark, STRONG coffee (preferably with a steak knife and fork), I don't like BURNT coffee.

2) CEO Howard Schultz sold the Sonics and got snookered, and most of us know the result. They now call Oklahoma City home, and us Sonics fans are left holding the bag.

I cannot in good faith put money in his pocket. %*^& him.

Every time I buy a cup of Coffee at Starbucks, I feel like Howard Schultz is bending me over and raping me.

I had a crazy dream the other night that Howard Schultz was bending me over and giving me a "coffee grounds" enema. I quickly woke up in a cold sweat than ran down the stairs and put on a pot of Maxwell House Coffee, or should I say "Ass-well House Coffee."

These kind of "standards" lapses ( Coffee of the Day hold times, for instance ) are a big issue that I am confident Howard is addressing since he's returned.

When he stepped away from day-to-day operations, to fulfill his life-long dream of owning the Sonics, he left the Company in the hands of people with tons of retail experience and very little food and beverage know-how. Around that same time, some key admin folks retired ( Orin Smith, Peter Maslin, to name a few) and the culture was eroded.

That left us in a horrible spot. I was a 5 year partner and Store Manager at the time. Standards were changed in the name of "efficiency" and "cost effectiveness". All of a sudden, our Regional and District leaders came from The Gap instead of from within. Retail oriented people filled our stores with all kinds of "ancillary merchandise" and began suggesting cutting key labor positions to save money. The focus on the customer and coffee was lost. Loyalty to partners (employees) went out the window as well. Many of us quit rather than compromise.

The Starbucks you see today is not Howard's vision. At all. Now he has the tough job of bringing the vision back.

I wish him well and look forward to the return of the "Third Place".

Thanks, "Enre_nous" for that insider's perspective. I remember the days when Starbucks was just coffee, coffee beans, and maybe a few pastries.

You"re welcome, Alfredo...I remember those days fondly.

Back then, we began every partner's training with a "Values Walk". This involved walking around the outside, then entering the store and asking the new partner a series of questions about the appearance of the store, inside and out, staff and customer interaction, and finally, waiting in line and getting a beverage. The new partner was encouraged to see the store as a whole, and from the customer's perspective.

Are the doors clean, trash cans overflowing, tables bussed? Would you like to sit and relax here? Do you feel welcome? What would you do differently? How would you solve an issue you observed?

The "Third Place" is exactly that: home, work, Starbucks, and you should feel as welcome there as the first two.

When I first saw that headline, "Starbucks closing 600 stores", I figured what the heck: It only affects a 3 block radius downtown.

Well, yes if you live in the big city. Now if you are a Starbucks fan and live in a small town that only has one and it's closing like Tillamook, you may see it different. There was a story on NPR today about a town in Illinois that has one Starbucks that opened last year and they are losing it already. People aren't happy about it, there isn't another "just down the street".

Deane_johnson:
Starbucks is fad. Fads die as quickly as they are born. Sometimes quicker.

How long does a fad take? This one has been going for over 30 years.

Starbucks is not a fad deane. Yes they are closing 600 stores, but considering the other million stores they have around the country and outside of the country Starbucks will continue to be the coffee leader. They are the monopoly of all Coffe Houses.
Instead of 5 Starbucks on one block there will only be 3. I still think thats PLENTY! Infact I'm betting that those 600 stores that are closing are not here in Portland.

Deane- Lets hope "The Blind Barn" is not a fad

Has anybody seen any Starbucks closing in Portland? I havent!

Motozak, the exact same scenario at the Safeway in Heritage Plaza on 162nd and 4th Plain.

From what I hear the "outboard" Starbucks is closing.

I don't drink coffee, so it really doesn't matter to me, but my neighbor who is a coffee aficionado, says that that Starbucks is the best one he's been to.

I know of at least two Starbucks stores in Portland that are supposed to close - one that is close to my house. Both stores are in established Portland neighborhoods and seem to do decent business - to me - but do not have drive-thrus, which apparently Starbucks now sees as essential to a high-performing store.

I've been to the one store that is supposed to close; no one there mentioned a closing to me and there is no sign or notice about a pending store closing, but the week I heard it was closing, I was there and saw the baristas individually watching company videos on a portable DVD player with the store manager. Having worked at Intel, I knew exactly what they were doing: Corporate had prepared a video explaining to employees what their options were. Voluntary separation, placement at a new store, etc.

I'm curious to see how they handle the store closings, whether they will give notice at all to customers. Some of these stores have had long-time loyal customers who will no doubt be pissed. Starbucks has only closed 50 of their 600 target stores so far so I guess they are closing them gradually.

Andrew

I was on the team that opened the Heritage Plaza store (Orchards 3348). It was intended to relieve pressure from the drive thru store further south on 164th. Orchards is the only store in Clark County that's being closed.

Like the Burton Road store, Orchards had a very difficult traffic pattern, and no drive thru. They both looked easy to access, but it was a real maze trying to get back out and continue on your way. When I worked at Orchards, there wasn't even a light at the access point directly south of the store on 162nd. Making a left to head toward Hockinson ( or to get back to Fourth Plain) was nearly impossible at certain times of the day. Access was the biggest complaint we had from our customers. They used to joke that walking there was easier Definitely not a good location to get in and out of quickly.

The Burton store had problems from the beginning. Partners' cars were broken into on a regular basis early on (one was stolen), and the store's front windows were broken out and a truckload of merchandise was stolen before the store's first holiday season. Partner turnover was very high.

Howard was against drive thru service and finally relented when customers demanded it long enough. How can you be the Third Place if no one comes in to sit for awhile? Commerce Center (Mill Plain @ Chkalov) proved to be a huge success, as did the store to the south of the Orchards store.

I'm guessing they will close the stores in phases to allow transfer of retail merchandise, partners, and equipment to go smoothly. Luckily, not many stores are closing in this area and partners will most likely transfer to other stores quite easily.

Nice to hear that, Skybill! Orchards really embodied what a Starbucks was supposed to be: a friendly place where everyone knew each other by name and new folks felt welcome from the beginning.

We always felt that it was the "little store that could" and we gave it our best shot with every person who walked through the door.

I'm saddened by it's closure, but happy that your friends had a great experience every time they walked in.

Like the Burton Road store, Orchards had a very difficult traffic pattern

That's because the traffic engineers in Vancouver / Clark County are MORONS.

They couldn't find their butt with both hands if there was a neon arrow pointing at it.

The one and only intelligent thing I've seen them do in all of Vancouver / Clark County is on the new part of Mill Plain, east of 164th, they have flashing yellow left turn arrows so you don't have to sit and wait for the light to cycle if there is nobody coming.

That's it. That's the only smart thing they have done!

I'm done whining now!

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