According to a new study that surveyed 35,000 Americans in 2007, 70 percent of respondents agreed with the statement: "Many religions can lead to eternal life." Additionally, 57% of Evangelical Christians were willing to accept that theirs might not be the only path to salvation, which suggests a major shift, according to study authors at the Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life.

More than half those polled said religion was "very important in their lives."

Of the dozens of denominations covered by the Pew survey, Mormons and Jehovah's Witnesses were the only ones who mostly answered that their own faith was the only way to eternal life.

The Religious Landscape Survey's findings appear to signal that religion may actually be a less-divisive factor in American political life than had been previously thought over the last few decades.

God's Truths are not swayed by popular vote.

'Enter through the narrow gate because the gate and road that lead to destruction are wide. Many enter through the wide gate.' Matthew 7:13

I agree the road is narrow. But not our minds.

Proof that the Herb's in the world are an exremist minority.

I'll take God's Word over man's word.

Vaya con Dios.

Herb

The funny thing is Herb, you ARE taking man's word because there is no proof god spoke to anyone.

I find it interesting that 57 percent of Evangelicals in the survey are willing to accept other faith traditions view of heaven.

That surprised me a bit.

>>there is no proof god spoke

Just through His Word called the Bible He has spoken to many millions for thousands of years.

>>religion may actually be a less-divisive factor

This survey if true it's very unsettling and a departure from scripture/most tenants of the faith of most religions! More like the religion of tolarance/permisiveness.

>>That surprised me a bit

YES! Down right scary...sad snap shot of the Christian world view.

Vitalogy wrote:

The funny thing is Herb, you ARE taking man's word because there is no proof god spoke to anyone.

I think that's the thing that irks me most about religion. People read what they want into the bible, the preacher and THEY decide what God and Jesus was or is saying. The war in Iraq for example, the right wingers claim Jesus would be behind them in this conflict. Well, I don't have to be all fired religious to know Jesus was a pacifist who didn't believe in war, but now the Herbs of the world will come in here and tell me how wrong I am. Why, because they see the words of scripture differently than I do and THAT has nothing to do with the word of God. This is fine, because I really have better things to do with my time than argue theology.

I'm not sure this is a bad thing. But it does show to me that what many hold as a black and white spiritual foundation may be in the process of going through it's own catharsis.

"I really have better things to do with my time than argue theology."

Most do Aok, but I like the challenge. Call it a quirky habit.

Do not be wise in words - be wise in deeds. Jewish Proverb

'..Jesus was a pacifist who didn't believe in war..'

I'm into Kumbahyah as much as the next guy. And one of our accomplished strong on defense presidents, Mr. Nixon, was raised a Quaker. But that didn't stop him from mining the harbours at Haiphong [with likely a tad of encouragement from Henry the K.]'

Just don't expect to make your statement without it being proven demonstrably wrong by our Lord's own words:

'Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.' Matthew 10:34

'He said to them, "But now if you have a purse, take it, and also a bag; and if you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one."' Luke 22:36

Herb 'MilqueToast' Milhous

I'll take God's Word over man's word.

MAN has Distorted the Bible on so many levels YOU are reading the word of man.

Leave that slimefuck Nixon out of this, Herb.
The guy was a murdering son of a bitch and a lying bastard.

The Lord put forth his spin on war and violence thousands of years before the New Testament and Jesus Christ of Nazareth were even on the radar. The Old Testament, remember the Old Testament, Herb? That book that predates your entire religion and saviour by thousands of years was full of violence and instructions handed down in The Bible on what the Children Of Israel must do to successfully return to the Promised Land.

When the LORD your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess (Israel) and drive out before you many nations... and when the LORD your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them, then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy…You must destroy all the peoples the LORD your God gives over to you.
Deut. 7:1-2, 16

Fortunately, modern man (most of us) has moved beyond the multi-translated words of ancient scriptures, revisionism motivated, and come to a more relevant interpretation. Fundamentalist Christian types that can not make this paradigm work for them are forever bound to the earliest "spinmeisters" of times when the only medium to communicate was word of mouth and the distortions no less than 8 year olds playing parlor whisper games. I often see Herb's sincerity as outdated as these ancient interpretations. In the instant situation in Israel, no one is suggesting anyone leave, rather the desire is for peace. The fucking Palestinian radicals broke the cease fire yesterday by launching more rockets into Israel proper. This will bring them nothing but retaliation. War and violence is still a way of life in the middle east ... always has been ... hopefully will not always be.

So, the real point here is not an argument in theology rather that in order to fulfill one's own spiritual needs one must live their lives according to some kind of guidelines that don't have to originate in any one document, any one religion, any one anything. 70 percent is an overwhelming majority.

"'Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword.' Matthew 10:34"

One of Herb's overused and misinterpreted scripture references to justify our Lord and Savior used violence.

One more time Herb. Here it is. READ MY LIPS. The SWORD is a metaphor. It's not an actual sword. Please show me in the bible where Jesus used a sword in his own hand to kill?

I'll save you the time. He doesn't. Bonhoeffer, Barclay, Barth, Tillich, Bruggermann and CS Lewis would agree as well.

To get back on track with the original thread idea, what I think is happening, and we're seeing it more and more, is the old guard conservative evangelical theocracy is not only being tested it's being dissolved in many places.

Again I bring up the movie "Lord, Save Us From Your Followers." I would put that on your "must see" list Herb. Heck, I'll let you borrow the DVD I purchased. I know it won't change your mind but you will be educated on what is happening within the walls of Christianity today and why we are so divided.

The thing is Herb you don’t even know how divisive you have become. You’ve taken complex social issues and put them into bumper sticker theology and call it good. Life is not that simple. People are not that simple. That’s why we need to get to the table of constructive dialogue even with our differences.

There have been moments where you have shown some of that vulnerability and willingness to reach across the table, which is not a weakness but strength.

'...one must live their lives according to some kind of guidelines that don't have to originate in any one document...'

If you don't count both the Right to Life & NRA Voter Guides, I would agree, There are 2 documents, not just one to use.

The Bible and The Constitution.

Herb

'...you will be educated on what is happening within the walls of Christianity today and why we are so divided.'

Look. I agree that I tend to be a tad ham-fisted at times. But speaking the truth in love still means speaking the truth.

'...speaking the truth in love, we will in all things grow up into him who is the Head, that is, Christ.' Ephesians 4:15

If Jesus is not necessary for our salvation, then He died in vain, and this calls God, who provided His atonement for our sins, a liar. And that's the bottom line. For if believing Christ is optional, then He is not who He says He is.

Chris, you and I both respect several of the same great Christian writers, including C.S. Lewis. Here's what he had to say about the very offensive claims of Jesus:

'A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic--on the level with a man who says he is a poached egg--or he would be the devil of hell. You must take your choice. Either this was, and is, the Son of God, or else a madman or something worse. You can shut him up for a fool or you can fall at his feet and call him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about his being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us.' C.S Lewis

You have quoted this CS Lewis verse so many times I've almost memorized it. And I do agree with it.

But what you have yet to establish over the years we have debated your Mathew 10:34 passage is Jesus' intent to use an actual sword. You continue to insist it's an actual sword that Jesus hold's in his hand and infer that he will use it.

What CS Lewis takes on is Jesus teachings and what Jesus actual says about himself. And you are correct; it's radical even by today's standards. One may disagree with it, but you can't ignore it.

So with that as the backdrop, lets try and get back on topic. The survey suggests some interesting data concerning evangelical’s acceptance of other faith traditions concerning heaven. This in it's own right leans a bit radical wouldn't you say?

Do you think the division within Christian circles (i.e., you and me) is part of this?

I'm thinking, in fact, I KNOW, Heaven is the here and now, and NOTHING comes after, except food for worms. Herb has chosen to live his one and only life in a Hell of his own creation.

"God's Truths are not swayed by popular vote."

Mr. Herb, God spoke long before anyone bothered to write his words down. That is why Christians, Jews and Muslims believe in him more than they do the Bible, the Koran or the Torah, all works of man, through them human interpretation of what they want to believe.

'What CS Lewis takes on is Jesus teachings and what Jesus actual says about himself. And you are correct; it's radical even by today's standards. One may disagree with it, but you can't ignore it.'

So far, so good.

'So with that as the backdrop, lets try and get back on topic. The survey suggests some interesting data concerning evangelical’s acceptance of other faith traditions concerning heaven. This in it's own right leans a bit radical wouldn't you say?'

Yes, I agree it is radical. Radical can be very good, or very bad.

What we're seeing is the secularisation of a once-Christian nation. All great nations rise and fall, and ours is little different in that one respect.

Our once-great nation is indeed slouching toward Gomorrah. In abandoning the Gospel, we're now destined to reap what we've sown.

Herb

"Our once-great nation is indeed slouching toward Gomorrah."

A fine-sounding statement, but what does it mean?

When was the pinnacle of greatness for this country Herb? What made it great at that time? What has changed? Be extremely specific, please.

This has NEVER been a "Christian Nation".
We are by definition a SECULAR Nation.
Comprised of citizens free to worship as they wish.

If I wanted to live in fear and misery, I’d take the evangelical Christian approach to the reaching the afterlife. I’d hide in my David Koresh like compound, memorizing Bible verses, wringing my hands, keeping my spouse subservient, listening to Bo Gritz and Dr. James Dobson on the radio, watching Hal Lindsey on TBN, all the while keeping my guns and ammunition close at hand.

Sounds like a great way to celebrate life.

If more people actually showed any happiness in their faith outside of their church buildings, instead of using it as a weapon against others, it would make things better for everyone. Appealing, even. But no. It's about " If you don't exercise your faith the way I do, you will go to Hell."

OK. Thank you. Please drive foward to the 2nd window.

You're no different than those Christians whom you tell to practice what they preach.
But lest you throw mud at the faithful, have you ever considered how much worse would be those who have attempted to adhere to Godly living, without their Christian faith?

While far from perfect now, they would undoubtedly be far less charitable and lost.

God does not expect us to be perfect, but to follow Him.

So the next time you rail against a Christian, imagine how far along he or she is now, compared to where that person would otherwise be. There are countless stories of people literally pulled from gutters, and their lives were changed toward abundant living as a direct result of the Gospel.

'When a man who accepts the Christian doctrine lives unworthily of it, it is much clearer to say he is a bad Christian than to say he is not a Christian.' C.S. Lewis

Herb

Where do I start...been a busy afternoon...on topic...The Bible is very clear about heaven...a wonderful eternal place for those who give their lives to God's Son Jesus Christ...and hell...a not so great place for those who don't. Plain and simple. Believed by/a doctrine for most Christians that seems to be eroding/flexing by outside/media/lies from satan influences.

What's interesting is that even the Bible does predict these attitudes/changes in the last days.

"God does not expect us to be perfect".

An interesting statement. That explains all the hypocrisy from the religious right. Keeping the bar for themselves low but for the rest of the population, unattainably high. I guess that speaks to all the mediocrity within the conservative Christian movement.

I am not interested in a heaven with a Christian Trade Only sign above the lunch counter. I am not interested in a paradise that looks like a suburban gated community. I do not desire to mingle with hypocrites forever.

If my afterlife does not include having a comical conversation and all you can eat curry with Ghandi, or a pleasant paddle and a pipe in the pines with Chief Joseph, count me out.

One cannot claim that God is a truly universal concept, then turn around and exclude folks by their own personal definition of that very same universal concept. God is love without an asterisk.

"One cannot claim that God is a truly universal concept, then turn around and exclude folks by their own personal definition of that very same universal concept. God is love without an asterisk."

Bingo. Unfortunately, the right wing fundamentalists will never see it that way. They are no different in theory than the lunatic fringes of Islaam. In practice, if there were not the law enforcement structure we do have in this country, there would be a right wing fascist element that would pursue lawless destruction of people and property. There has been in the past, like the KKK, McVeigh, etc. At least the radical left burns up trucks and not people.

With the strong possibility that a black man who is also a Christian becoming the President of the United States is at hand in a historical election, is it no wonder the old guard conservatives are grappling for anything that leaches of biblical end times.

Herb says:
"There are countless stories of people literally pulled from gutters, and their lives were changed toward abundant living as a direct result of the Gospel. "

I know countless stories of people being pulled from those same gutters to become Muslim's, Jew's, Hinduist's, Buddist's and it changed their lives as well. Who am I to say to them, you're going to hell or heaven?

I only know what I know. The moment I think I know what's best for anyone else is the moment I need to shut up and live my belief.

Pretty soon, one of these evangelical heretics will be calling Senator Obama the anti-Christ. But it shouldn’t come as any surprise, for they don’t want us to remember how they pimped themselves out for one of their own, our current miscreant and chief, George W. Bush. That’s the same George W. Bush with an approval rating that rivals Richard M. Nixon during the days leading to his resignation.

"Who am I to say to them, you're going to hell or heaven?"

Welcome to lukewarm Christianity. And that's not simply Herb's opinion, for if it were, you'd have a good point.

'So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.' Revelation 3:16

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bHGxDvROuvo

Herb

The troll is spunky today. He must be chock full of smores from a long night of cross burnings.

I'll take lukewarm over the evangelical hate filled variety any day of the week.

>>no different in theory than the lunatic fringes of Islaam

good grief...you gotta be kidding right?

>>the law enforcement structure we do have in this country

a lot based on the Bible in Exodus 20...stealing...lying...killing...you know...little things like that.

>>At least the radical left burns up trucks and not people.

Guess I could mention that 6,000 innocent unborn citizens of the United States are violently vacuumed out of their mothers womb every day condoned by most liberial ideaologists...but...sorry just did....6000 EVERYDAY!!! Amazing this is still going on...just stating facts.

Abortion is not an ideological concern, it is the choice of the individual who has the medical procedure.

Every two seconds, somebody dies of starvation.

Tick.

Tick.

Tick.

43,200 every day.

Get off of your patriarchal high horse, because it will not get you to heaven.

But remember, according to a previous Broadway post, starvation in America doesn’t exist.

As for those starving around the world, perhaps it’s because they're not evangelical Christian. Or not Caucasian, or both?

Thank God there is no Heaven because I sure as Hell wouldn't want to spend time there with people who THINK they're going there because they're doing God's work here.

>>Get off of your patriarchal high horse, because it will not get you to heaven

not dependent on a horse to get me or anyone else there

>>it is the choice

a choice is an ideaology to.

24 percent of young women who say they are Catholic get abortions.

43 percent of young women who say they are protestant get abortions.

14 percent of young women who say they are evangelical Christians get abortions.

So what is this saying about what is happening in our "Christian homes?"

When I was kid, I was told that heaven was essentially a big zoo full of friendly animals. I could be sliding down the neck of a giraffe. I could be conducting a symphony of trumpeting elephants. The lamb and the lion could be sleeping on the same patch of grass. It was a fantasy designed to live in my childhood imagination, but at least it was pleasant.

As I grew older, the concept was reframed by the church. I found out that the same heaven was not available to everyone. It would only have 144,000 people and they had to be members of my faith. It saddened me that heaven was going to be full of the same unkind spirit, predators, charlatans, hypocrites, bigots and liars that I knew on earth.

I mean no malice toward you personally Broadway. When you and others of faith frame heaven as a place with a hanging tree, intolerant neighbors and an autocratic despot on the throne, it makes it seem like a place as undesirable as hell. A small city in early twentieth century Alabama, even with golden streets, is not heaven.

If God is such an intolerant, cruel, unforgiving and all-encompassing power, why bother with the concepts of redemption or helping out a neighbor? If the earth is a planet to be used up and discarded, why would God have made it so beautiful? If heaven is not a land of lasting peace, unconditional love and eternal fellowship, why tout it as such a wondrous place that we would all enjoy forever?

Yeah, that one just kills me. 144,000 people only, of all that have ever lived too!

That's not very good odds --makes sinning huge a smart wager!

Another thing: I think we need some pain. Seriously! Maybe not much, or maybe it's a different kind, but total bliss seems false somehow. If the place doesn't have any texture, it's just not somewhere I know I could be me.

So then, do we change at that point and become something different? Or, is it just being over sold, with the reality being significantly different than the pipe dream we hear about?

Can I bring my Cat ZoeZo?

'...evangelical hate filled variety...'

There's the irony, because the words of Jesus are very clear. He doesn't leave much wiggle room.

'No one comes to the Father but by Me.'
'I and the Father are one.'
'...go through the narrow gate.'

Pretty straight, narrow, intolerant and definitely not PC.

Yet those who don't read His Word, or even claim to follow Jesus, are the experts?

I don't know whether to laugh or cry.

Herb

http://www.lavistachurchofchrist.org/LVarticles/JesusIntolerantConfrontationalAn dExclusionary.htm

>>144,000 people only

not what the Bible says...the simple well know scripture says it all...John 3:16-18

This is how much God loved the world: He gave his Son, his one and only Son. And this is why: so that no one need be destroyed; by believing in him, anyone can have a whole and lasting life. God didn't go to all the trouble of sending his Son merely to point an accusing finger, telling the world how bad it was. He came to help, to put the world right again. Anyone who trusts in him is acquitted; anyone who refuses to trust him has long since been under the death sentence without knowing it. And why? Because of that person's failure to believe in the one-of-a-kind Son of God when introduced to him.

Need to read all of the chapter too. Many of you...your minds have been "muddied-up" by non-Godly influences/media.

>>what is happening in our "Christian homes

Chris...this is alarming if true...simply put were not putting our faith, our trust, our lives for God's purpose and glory...running from Him...which I have to (re)direct/focus my life to everyday...not perfect here...just forgiven.

Ok, so what if somebody has followed? You know, bought the whole thing, hook, line and sinker. Loyal, but then wandered?

Saved or not?

Or then we have the gambler. Maybe feeling guilty about life debauchery, but decides to just max it out, going for the save late enough in life to still make it count, but not too early, so the most fun can be had.

Of course, we then have the death row guy. Killed a ton of people, finds Jesus and scores in the end!

What about that guy?

Is is so difficult then to make the leap and allow people their differences in faith?

The growing movement is that ones relationship with God is paramount. I personally think it's kick back from the scam that is organized religion.

(well, most of it anyway --enough to make people reconsider the whole thing)

If you listen to some specific sects, even within one particular faith, you would think they are the only ones going --out of all that have ever lived!

To me, that mess puts it all in "crok 'o dogma" territory, to be safely ignored.

The focus needs to be on yourself...what's going on between you and God?
Have you accepted/trusted Him in your life as per scripture qouted in last post.

And that's really what Chris was getting at. Using religion as a tool for coersion isn't where it's at, and it seems a growing and significant number of people are affirming that reality.

The focus is always on your self, faith, no faith, personal faith, ZEN! Which ever. That burden lies on us to reach self-acceptance and move forward and improve from there.

If faith helps in that, great! If it's harmful, then not so great.

At one point, yes I absolutely did. So, I'm home free right?

Seriously, I am not in a position where I can even consider buying into the dogma at this time. There is too much harm being done, and have been done for me to be associated with it.

If I were king, I would nail large scale organized religion hard enough to knock everybody back to small groups and personal faith and leave it all right there.

I think it's harmful, and it often gets in the way of self-acceptance. And that, living here in what we call a free country, is criminal in my view.

We've got way too many authoritarian types, leveraging the pulpit to satisfy their control issues, abusing people and a large number of them, having bought into the idea that they need to fear and or loathe themselves, actually pay for them to keep doing it!

That's criminal, in the way that selling snake oil is criminal.

And that is why it can safely be ignored. Any belief system that starts out by convincing a person that they are somehow not worthy, bad, lesser, whatever, is a false one.

It is false because we are who we are. We can improve that, but only when we have come to terms with who we are, accept that, then work to become somebody different and better.

Can't do this through fear, can't do it with self-lies and dogma. I know absolutely it can be done with honesty with our selves and conversation. Sometimes, faith can help with that, but only if it's a healthy one.

And here's the thing. Just playing the odds, picking a faith, or sect within one of the major religions, isn't a smart gamble. The majority are corrupt and abusive. No thanks.

Sorry, after all the crap I've seen and heard, I'm living in the rational world as much as is possible to do.

One last thing.

We might have an afterlife. So far, nobody has reported back, so that's a gamble at best, fairy tale or dream, at worst.

On the other hand, this life we live right now, is here, real, vital. I sure as hell am not going to spend it worrying about what the next one might be like, or jockying for position in that next, likely imaginary one.

Why bother then? It's completely possible to be a good person here, matter here and now, and live here and now. Given all the contradictions, that too is a safe gamble, in that if there is an after life, doing those things will reflect well on those who do them.

Finally, if there is a creator, and that creator gave us free will, these posts are rational ones, honest ones, and will be completely understood in that context.

An all powerful being conflicts with that being having the emotional needs of an angry and ego ridden 5 year old.

Jesus Christ and what He says in His Word the Bible and your acceptance of that in your life is all you need...no "religion" needed.

'If I were king, I would nail large scale organized religion hard enough to knock everybody back to small groups and personal faith and leave it all right there.'

Ya know, 'house churches' can be terrific and they do actually more more closely approximate early Christian worship.

That said, Jesus spoke before thousands, so preaching before large groups can be fine. Witness the wonderful impact of Luis Palau and Billy Graham.

Aside from that, I prefer the features of a smaller congregation, myself.

I think often what you see with larger churches isn't so much that they're corrupt. I think religious groups tend to get large in an attempt to do more. But it isn't easy to grow a church.

I also believe that in order to combat the secular culture, big churches can better fight the evil it often presents.

Herb

I've done small church groups, bible study groups, work camp groups you name it. If the church has a group for it I've probably been in it.

Small groups really allow you to get to know each other in a more relaxed way. You typically meet in someone's home and someone leads the discussion. Probably some of my favorite "church" times have been outside the church walls.

It's all about relationships and the time to develope them. Getting to know people slowly and in a safe environment, people will open up more and the depth of discussion leads to some truly amazing results.

Most small groups last anywhere from 1-3 years and then people are ready to move on. But those relationships are strong whether you continue to see these people or not.

In many ways our message board is a small, diverse group. Varying opinions based on varying experiences. These are valuable things, they are tangible.

Dan/Herb-Your hearts are in the right places, I firmly believe this. But your method of delivery leaves a lot to be desired.

We are to be Jesus' hands and have his servant’s heart. And if it's absolutely necessary.... use words. What I feel you do is opposite. That's why you get the resentment. Many here know what Jesus is all about. What they can't figure out is why on earth you're speaking on his behalf?

I don't think either Herb's or Broadway's hearts are in the right place. I think they are sad, pathetic humans who have been brainwashed into their narrow little world and wish to bring everyone else down to their pathetic standing in life. No thanks.

Well that's another way of looking at them.

They believe what they believe and that's fine. Just don't pedal those beliefs to me cause I already have my own.

>>pathetic standing in life

We just know the Maker of the Universe...pretty royal living and you can join Herb and Broadway by accepting Christ into your life...as simple as that.

^^^ On Ignore From Here On ^^^

I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints.
The sinners have much more fun.

-Billy Joel

>>-Billy Joel

pretty good music...not the best in life giving words.

>>cry with the saints

Do saints cry??? We all cry...who crys more and why?? Crying means unhappiness?? Are saints unhappy or percieved unhappy...oh...the start of a new thread!

>>The sinners have much more fun

I choose the wisdom of the book of Hebrews 11 and Moses

Moses had faith, he would not be called the son of Pharaoh's daughter when he grew up. He chose to suffer with God's people instead of having fun doing sinful things for awhile. Any shame that he suffered for Christ was worth more than all the riches in Egypt. He kept his eyes on the reward God was going to give him

"The sinners have much more fun."

Hardly. Especially at the end of this life when one ponders what could have been.

Just look at Billy Joel's own divorce-riddled, promiscuous, alcoholic life.

For all his amazing accomplishments, he appears to have little happiness.

Looks like life tragically trying to imitate art.

There is no true happiness apart from God. It's the way we were made, in God's image.

Indeed, the definition of hell is separation from Him.

Herb

No offense.
But an afterlife populated with folks like you two doesn't sound much like Heaven.

Don't listen to Hollywood, or my opinion of Heaven. Read what God Himself has said:

As it is written: That eye hath not seen, nor ear heard: neither hath it entered into the heart of man, what things God hath prepared for them that love him.

1 Corinthians 2:9

I am probably the Happiest person I Know ,And not once has god entered into the equation.If I was made in gods image ........He must be one good lookin Dude!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!As for Billy Joel, I would rather be rich and godless than a poor believer. As a big believer of never arguing about religon[i find the statement "you got to believe" a little hard to swallow}i will end here>>>>>>>>>

Robertson & Falwell get left behind

People that need god like Herb does are truly the unhappy ones. And insecure.

>>afterlife populated with folks like you two doesn't sound much like Heaven

looking to low here...we are all not perfect humans and what were all dealing with here is the arena of ideas being shared. The alternative to Heaven is pretty grim.

If truth is truth then somebody has to be right and somebody has to be wrong.

'...not once has god entered into the equation.'

Not yet.
Time waits for no man.

And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. Revelation 20:12

http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0001/0001_01.asp?wpc=0001_01.asp&wpp=a

Herb

Statisistically speaking, there is a 99% chance you are wrong. And I'm being generous.

"If truth is truth then somebody has to be right and somebody has to be wrong."

Ok, there are so many problems with this, I don't even know where to begin.

First, there is only truth. There is no if about it. That's like saying if 5 is really 5 then bob is a dick.

It's a nonsense construct.

Now, moving on.

"somebody has to be right and somebody has to be wrong"

This really makes a lot of ASSumptions!

Some of the more important ones are:

1. our body of understanding is inclusive enough to rule out absolutely alternative ideas that may contradict the "truth" as we know it.

2. our body of understanding actually includes the truth!

(we don't know this for a great many things, with all of religion being the case here)

3. the elements being discussed actually have a binary outcome, where there is a clear, absolute right and wrong.

That's garbage Broadway. I think you know it too!

>>Statisistically speaking

The Gospel according to Vitalogy!

Good stats come from credible events that were documented/written down through time. The Bible fills that bill from the beginning of know time...it documents the creation for pete's and your sake! What writings document the beginning/purpose of man and the universe? The Bible...any others?

Technically, I believe there is a 100% chance that 0% of us are correct because nobody really knows.

I don't believe that the bible is a credible source of information.

I would agree with that.

A religious voice whom I have quoted many times shares his thoughts on Dobson's assertations of Obama's distortions of the bible.

The words are from the Rev. Jim Wallis.

James Dobson, of Focus on the Family Action, and his senior vice president of government and public policy, Tom Minnery, used their "Focus on the Family" radio show Tuesday to criticize Barack Obama's understanding of Christian faith. In the show, they describe Obama as "deliberately distorting the Bible," "dragging biblical understanding through the gutter," "willfully trying to confuse people," and having a "fruitcake interpretation of the Constitution."

The clear purpose of the show was to attack Barack Obama. On the show, Dobson says of himself, "I'm not a reverend. I'm not a minister. I'm not a theologian. I'm not an evangelist. I'm a psychologist. I have a Ph.D. in child development." Child psychologists don't insert themselves into partisan politics in the regular way that James Dobson does and has over many years as one of the premier leaders of the Religious Right. He has spoken about how often he talked to Republican leaders -- Karl Rove, administration strategists, and even President Bush himself. This year he tried to influence the outcome of the Republican primary by saying he would never vote for John McCain or the Republicans if they nominated him, then reversed himself and said he would vote after all but didn't say for whom. But why should America care about how a child psychologist votes?

James Dobson is insinuating himself into this presidential campaign, and his attacks against his fellow Christian, Barack Obama, should be seriously scrutinized. And because the basis for his attack on Obama is the speech the Illinois senator gave at our Sojourners/Call to Renewal event in 2006 (for the record, we also had Democrat Hillary Clinton and Republicans Rick Santorum and Sam Brownback speak that year), I have decided to respond to Dobson's attacks. In most every case they are themselves clear distortions of what Obama said in that speech. I was there for the speech; Dobson was not.

I haven't endorsed a candidate, but I do defend them when they are attacked in disingenuous ways, and this is one of those cases. You can read Obama's two-year-old speech, [audio link] which was widely publicized at the time, and you can see that Dobson either didn't understand it or is deliberately distorting it. There are two major problems with Dobson's attack on Obama.

First, Dobson and Minnery's language is simply inappropriate for religious leaders to use in an already divisive political campaign. We can agree or disagree on both biblical and political viewpoints, but our language should be respectful and civil, not attacking motives and beliefs.

Second, and perhaps most important, is the role of religion in politics. Dobson alleges that Obama is saying:

I [Dobson] can't seek to pass legislation, for example, that bans partial-birth abortion because there are people in the culture who don't see that as a moral issue. And if I can't get everyone to agree with me, it is undemocratic to try to pass legislation that I find offensive to the Scripture. ... What he's trying to say here is unless everybody agrees, we have no right to fight for what we believe.

Contrary to Dobson's charge, Obama strongly defended the right and necessity of people of faith in bringing their moral agenda to the public square, and he was specifically critical of many on the left and in his own Democratic Party for being uncomfortable with religion in politics.

Obama said that religion is and always has been a fundamental and absolutely essential source of morality for the nation, but he also said that "religion has no monopoly on morality," which is a point I often make. The United States is not the Christian theocracy that people like James Dobson seem to think it should be. Political appeals, even if rooted in religious convictions, must be argued on moral grounds rather than as sectarian religious demands -- so that the people (citizens), whether religious or not, may have the capacity to hear and respond. Religious convictions must be translated into moral arguments, which must win the political debate if they are to be implemented. Religious people don't get to win just because they are religious. They, like any other citizens, have to convince their fellow citizens that what they propose is best for the common good -- for all of us, not just for the religious.

Instead of saying that Christians must accept "the lowest common denominator of morality," as Dobson accused Obama of suggesting, or that people of faith shouldn't advocate for the things their convictions suggest, Obama was saying the exact opposite -- that Christians should offer their best moral compass to the nation but then engage in the kind of democratic dialogue that religious pluralism demands. Martin Luther King Jr. perhaps did this best, with his Bible in one hand and the Constitution in the other.

One more note. I personally disagree with how both the Democrats and Republicans have treated the moral issue of abortion and am hopeful that the movement toward a serious commitment for dramatic abortion reduction will re-shape both parties' language and positions. But that is the only "bloody notion" that Dobson mentions. What about the horrible bloody war in Iraq that Dobson apparently supports, or the 30,000 children who die each day globally of poverty and disease that Dobson never mentions, or the genocides in Darfur and other places? In making abortion the single life issue in politics and elections, leaders from the Religious Right like Dobson have violated the "consistent ethic of life" that we find, for example, in Catholic social teaching.

Dobson has also fought unsuccessfully to keep the issue of the environment and climate change, which many also now regard as a "life issue," off the evangelical agenda. Older Religious Right leaders are now being passed by a new generation of young evangelicals who believe that poverty, "creation care" of the environment, human trafficking, human rights, pandemic diseases such as HIV/AIDS, and the fundamental issues of war and peace are also "religious" and "moral" issues and now a part of a much wider and deeper agenda. That new evangelical agenda is a deep threat to Dobson and the power wielded by the Religious Right for so long. It puts many evangelical votes in play this election year, especially among a new generation who are no longer captive to the Religious Right. Perhaps that is the real reason for Dobson's attack on Barack Obama.

Thank you, Chris.

Never trust a man who downplays the horror of abortion on demand.

Herbie the 'K'

You're welcome.

Jim Wallis is one of those ministers whose really grounded religiously and politically. And he just makes sense to me.

Again, Herrbocrite, exactly what is your oft-repeated "Abortion-On-Demand"?

Is it a drive-thru?
Is it a franchise?
Are there any near you?

P.S. So much for trying on those other shoes, eh? That was quick.

Good grief...Jim Wallis is an firm Obama supporter...no wonder the Dobson slams...more wolves in sheep clothing here.

Good thing too. It brings me a satisfactory measure of hope when we see solid religious figures able to step in and support a great candidate for President.

Dobson is an embarrassment. Net loss. Hope God calls him home, with Robertson sooner rather than later.

His only redeeming quality is that I'm quite sure he will die first, so I have some time here knowing he does not.

If you buy what that clown is selling, I'm really sorry. Truly sorry.

'Hope God calls him home, with Robertson sooner rather than later.'

Wishing for the death of your political opponent is absolute filth. So much for any remaining so-called high ground among Obama supporters.

No wonder you don't have a problem with foul language or abortion. That's in keeping with hoping for the death of others with whom you disagree.

For shame.

Herb

Touch a nerve?

Good.

Like I said, this isn't Disneyland. I don't like religious control freaks. I'm not even nice about it. There is very little to respect about jackasses like these people are.

What's worse is the people that actually stand up for them and think they are doing some good.

Get real.

This isn't a political thing. It's a flat out control issue thing; namely, me having an issue with too many religious nut-bags trying to make choices for other people.

I know what the law is, what my choices are and am quite happy to exercise those things as I see fit.

Bet all of them are on the down low too.

I have a problem with profane language when the profanity is the primary value.

It's lazy speech.

I've zero problem with it used to color other ideas when it's not the primary value.

All about form. Bad form is just bad, profane or not.

Of course, you don't actually read anything. You just grunt this and that.

Go back through the archives Herb. You will find my position on Abortion to be one where the woman gets to choose, period. It is also one where it's best to empower her to make the right choices as much as we can.

That's the fewest number of abortions possible, ideally someday having none.

It's as good as it gets. Really the only thing keeping it from good is you all or nothing, let the world burn, pro-lifers, who think nothing or nobody else matters once they've left the womb.

BTW: Wasn't it Robertson who prayed that it was God's will that another Supreme Court Justice would tip over during the second Bush term?

Yeah, thought so.

I try and keep things in perspective. Really. I do.

But I get the strangest feeling when I look at this picture of James Dobson.

http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/06/24/evangelical.vote/?iref=mpstoryview

If I were to just see that guy, not knowing who he was, there is something in that guy's eyes that is not good.

Stare at it for a while. Am I just having some kind of flashback? I don't get that feeling with McCain, Bush, Obama, Ted Haggard - not anything like that.

But Dobson, man. Something spooky in the way that you can't tell if he's looking at, through or past you. It's unsettling and makes me want to protect my family from him. I would not let that guy in my home for any reason.

So Broadway do you even know who Jim Wallis is? He's had the ear of President Bush more than once. Bush knows him by name and has brought him into the White House on many occasions to discuss faith based legislation.

Wallis is one of these guys who is deeply respected in many political and religious circles, including democrats and republicans. No wolf in sheep’s clothing, this guy is the real deal and knows his stuff.

I've heard of no conservative of any standing who would wish the death of any political opponent.

Now we get it.

Talk about hate: Wishing for the death of your fellow Americans, because of their political views.

How American.

That's right up there with the KKK.

You just lost any remaining vestige of respectability and have zero integrity.

Herb

I wouldn't wish death on Robertson, just a permanent mute button on his mouth would suffice.

Come to think of it Herb and Broadway......(nah...won't go there)

LOL @ Chris.

You said it with love in your heart and laughter in the air.

It would be nice if things were friendly around here, but then what would some of us do?

CJ, the eyes are the portals to the sewage, or something like that.

Herb, you must have missed this, or thought we had forgotten about it:

"We need someone to put rat poisoning in Justice Stevens' creme brulee."

Ann Coulter, 2006

But she was just kiddin', right? Or just so sadly misunderstood.

You do consider Ann to be a conservative of some standing, I gather.

Hey Herb!

I don't care.

No regrets. The two I mentioned are class A, certified, Nut Bags of the highest order.

We don't need them. Maybe God does.

If that causes me to lose credence and respectability in your eyes, well? Guess that's just how it is.

Believe me when I say this, with the nicest of intentions:

That does not matter.

Really.

It just doesn't.

Even the pathetically desperate James Dobson sees the writing on the wall. With conservatives falling out of favor, he has very little in the way of influence – except the pathetic sheep who listen to his hate radio program. And the one thing this old whore needs is influence. He’ll say or do anything to achieve a bit of notoriety. He’s as bad as a drug addled 70’s television child star looking to make a comeback. Pretty soon, you’ll see him appearing on those pathetic VH-1 programs trying to resurrect his dying fortunes. He belongs in the old evangelical retirement home for born-again, incontinent hypocrites with Pat Robertson, Jan and Paul Crouch, Oral and Richard Roberts, and Jimmy Swaggart.

Herb is among the least credible here. For him to question someone elses credibility is a joke. Seriously, you can't make this stuff up! Sometimes I wonder if it is made up!! People like this really don't exist, do they?

>>hate radio program

far far far from that...not true...I listen daily and encourage you to take a listen sometime!

www.family.org

He's a Dominionist Nut-Bag. Like just about all of his peers, he built up a large scale ministry and has used it to further his political agenda.

Buying his bullshit contributed to taking this Nation in a very poor direction. In 2004, this guy was probably the key "God is in the White House", and "not voting is a sin" enablers to Bush getting his second term.

Bush owes that guy big time.

Meaning Mr. Focus on the Family, is a direct contributor to some very bad times for working families. Classic Republican get the masses to vote against their best interests because God wants it that way, crap.

He's a Bigot.

He's a Hypocrite.

He's a Liar.

Here he is endorsing a sermon that says lesbian sex is to blame for God abandoning America and that justifies God destroying a major city. (katrina - new orleans)

http://mediamatters.org/items/200706070007?f=s_search

Here he is using fearmongering to drive votes and dollars his way, toward his dominionist agenda.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200705220008?f=s_search

It's too easy. Could fill pages with this guy and his crap.

He's a Dr. Phil with significantly greater control issues. I'm quite sure, buried in the lies, hate and manipulation, there is some solid psychological advice. Any shrink can do this, and many people need it.

Dobson is a leech, preying on that, leveraging it to lure people into religion, which then is used as a tool to further his agenda.

The result is a net loss with far more harm than good being done.

And he slaps God's name on it, so people will ignore the crap, because they are all for anything that gets the word out on the cult, mostly because they are committed members, who would look the total ass, if they even suspected otherwise.

He is why I fully and completely support taxing organized religion. Keep it small and real and your deductions will balance out, leaving things as they are now. Get big and make waves and pay huge.

At least then we could get some public works done for having to deal with these Nut-Bags.

I'm ok with religion getting large, so long as it also does not get political. Cross that line and pay your taxes, don't and it's really just a ministry and that's ok.

Good grief...Media Matters is the most leftest smear web site ever...can't take anything there as truth. You really got it wrong about Focus on the family and have not checked out their web site and listened to their daily show...daily benefiting American society/families...a work of God.

That's a fallacy.

We have facts and we have bias and we have lies.

Having a left bias does not equal lies. Same for any bias. When there is bias, there are often facts omitted. That's a distortion, and the primary reason why we don't take information sources for granted.

Also, there is interpetation. On a great many things we don't have all the facts. Think about it. If we did, there would be no opinion, only acceptance or lies. Also a great reason for not taking any source for granted.

It follows then dismissing a given information source as invalid, based on their bias, is not rational. You are just taking the easy out, choosing to only focus on some elements of what the Nut-Bag Republican Dobson does, while ignoring others.

I think it's highly likely you do this because it gets the word out on your faith, and you value that more than you do actually seeing that faith realized in a way that does not do more harm than good.

That's not really supportable you know.

I have listened to the show --in fact, before hammering somebody online, I make a point of this. I do it for this exact reason. I don't take any information source for granted. Nobody should.

Dobson is full of it, and that's from personal experience Broadway. He's also got no position to claim moral authority, nor theological authority because of his many inconsistencies and support for what clearly is not a defensible political agenda.

But he's got numbers, so he must be good right?

You go ahead and keep claiming he's a work of God. What's gonna happen is the same thing that happens with every major leaguer and his supporters. There will be push back, and it's already happening in the youth.

They see it for what it is. Old school, discriminatory, bigoted, holier than thou, divisive, corrupt, garbage that spends more time pushing wedge issues between us than it does helping us where we need it.

And that brings us back on topic.

Religion, when shared in an honest and non-confrontational, non-authoritarian and non-judgmental way, is a healthy human thing.

We don't need the rest. Young people see this, and I suspect they see it very clearly as an artifact of all this divisive politics and religion being used to get people to vote against their own interests.

Put simply, supporting people like Dobson really isn't doing you, or anybody else any net good.

He might be helping some familes. He's educated in that area, so I bet some of that works for people.

But, when you look at the damage caused from the political works, empowered by people wanting the family help, it's a real mess, and that's where the harm is.

Dobson supporters literally are helping to tear the nation down and put the hurt on common people. Think of it like buying drugs is linked to supporting terror.

It is!

The only difference is the Christian Taliban employs fear to achieve harmful political ends, and Al-Queda uses violence to reach similar goals.

>>Dobson supporters literally are helping to tear the nation down and put the hurt on common people

>>Christian Taliban

God help you...you do not know what you are saying

Oh yes I do.

That's how serious it is.

We've got a good faith, and a lot of good people wanting to practice it, being used like a tool by some not so good people.

This is a problem Broadway. Let me be extremely clear and say that being Christian is fine. There is no harm, all good. But, being one and supporting these people, who would use you like a tool, isn't so good.

If one looks at the whole picture, with guys like Dobson, it's not pretty. And when you endorse him, you endorse the whole picture, not just the happy fun family advice bit of it.

Sorry man.

If that does not sit well, maybe it's not a bad idea to reconsider just who to support and why. Dobson is a mixed bag, not all good. Same with Robertson!

Both leave a very bad taste in a growing number of Americans mouths, and that reflects badly on the body of people that support them as a whole.

The kinds of laws these guys want to enact are no different than those embodied in many Muslim countries and their clerics and all of their control issues.

Dobson is among a group of people that want to bring that mess here! Different names, sometimes different issues, but same core idea.

James Dobson is all about one thing, James Dobson. And rather than finding success in other venues, he parlayed his brand of hate filled religious orthodoxy into a mini-evangelical empire. He’s as trust worthy as a 19th century snake oil salesman. The man is dangerous and should not be trusted – just listen to his most recent tripe about Barack Obama. Mark my words, Dobson will continue to play fast and loose with the facts. Dobson is just another example of an evangelical using God to get rich – part of that whole wealth centric evangelical movement. He’s as hedonistic as Jim Bakker or Jimmy Swaggart – for it’s all about being drunk with power and money.

Never trust a man who downplays the horror of what HIS President did to another country and the people that live/lived there. The untold THOUSANDS of women and child and don't forget the UNborn that have been killed.

It's gotta suck for you Herb.....

Tal, I cannot disagree. Bummer really.

Broadway, I need to make it perfectly clear after my last post, that I understand perfectly the difference between ordinary Christians and those I would gladly characterize as Taliban types.

Maybe this explains it. Note Skybill's passionate posts on personal gun rights. That's how I feel about religion. It's a personal thing. We all need to be completely free to pursue it as we see fit, and that includes simply not being religious, for whatever reason.

The Taliban reference is directly linked to those trying to legislate their faith and their morality onto others SO THEY CANNOT CHOOSE.

This is wrong, it's offensive and it's just not American.

>>legislate their faith and their morality onto others SO THEY CANNOT CHOOSE.

This is NOT the agenda of Focus on the Family. Wherever your getting your data about them is false...try their site...they are as pro family and pro America as they come and not wanting to take anyones believe in their faith away...me either....and I would NEVER support any ministry/church/organization/person who would try.

I wonder if God has any problem with fighting / creating false demons.

I know I've said this before, but I deeply feel it; I LOVE this era of exposing secrets. It's led to the opening of doors that have shown me and given the world some pretty unique insights to the minds, hearts and motivations of others.

Now some may see this as polar opposite of how I see it, but there have been some pretty amazingly fruitful attempts to get at the truth about things instead of just taking the word of others for it as " gospel."

But when it has been shown that we were right to question the tactics, methods or motivations of others in some kind of power seat or influence ( Because whomever was doing it knew that they were either in violation of a law or at the very least, in violation of the public's trust ) I wonder how God feels about that. I don't recall any Bible verse that addresses " Thou shalt not try and freak people out or withhold evidence purely because you can. And certainly not to protect your own buttocks. "

Using fear for so long has backfired to such a degree now, that it seems like what the REAL truth is matters like it's never mattered before. Admittedly, I give Bush the credit for that.

So if there is a legacy for Bush, I believe that it is; Bush has whetted America's appetite for the truth like no other.

God Bless George W Bush for trying to create false demons. And if God does't have a stance on that, God Bless America for creating a climate in which it makes it hard to operate that way.