My first apology is to Vitalogy. I apologize if I have built a wall between you and I based on our different viewpoints concerning my personal faith. I try and be respectful but must admit I probably do a poor job from time to time.

I need to apologize to Herb and Broadway. I have not always acted Christ-like to either of you, my brothers in Christ. We do see things dramatically different for whatever reasons and I ask for your forgiveness.

I need to apologize to Deane. I have not treated you with the kind of respect I want to be treated with and will attempt to do better.

My apologies to Chickenjuggler. For attempting to spread my gospel of health in an unhealthy manner.

I also want to apologize to those who lurk on this message board who may have been offended by any of my posts directly or otherwise.

No need to apologize, Chris. I can't remember ever reading something from you that I find offensive. I respect your beliefs because you respect other's beliefs or non-beliefs. If only others carried themselves like you do, there certainly would be less divisiveness between those that claim to know the truth and those that believe the truth is an unknown.

I would also like to extend an apology to you Vitalogy. If you have felt singled out or picked on by some of my reactions to your posts. We have far more in common than all that and I hope you know that I enjoy your contributions.

I want to apologize to Andrew as well. There are times when we do not see eye to eye, but I have a great deal of enduring respect for you. Like Vit, we have far too much in common to be at loggerheads.

For anyone else who feels dogged on, I am know that I not always the most diplomatic sort. If my boots squashed your toes, mea culpa.

"I need to apologize to Herb and Broadway."

I won't pretend to speak for Broadway, but no offense taken, Chris, and no apology is necessary. Besides, I'm way more ham-fisted than you are. If anyone should apologize, it's me.

You're a good egg with a kind heart.

Herb

LS: No need to apologize. I enjoy vigorous debate and sometimes disagreements can run deep, but the point is that we have a place to vent AND learn. I have stuff in common with everyone here, some more than others.

I accept your apology Herb.

Yours too Deane.

And Chris, come on, your gospel of health is just something you know a little bit about and have some experience with. I already knew that and in my Chickenjuggler Thread, I realized that I don't rib you enough about stuff that isn't sacred to you.

Now just give me my money and I'll call off the gangstas.

Chris you are the last person on this board who needs to apoligize for anything.

Chris Keep on Keepin' On this board would not be the same without you.

CJ thanks. Sometimes it's hard to read the intent when you don't hear the voice. I knew you were being a bit facetious however I can toot that healthy thing a bit too loud sometimes.

Shyguy I guess I was feeling the need to counter act some of the negative feelings I was having on some of the other threads. Call it being over-sensitive or a touch of guilt.

C'mon, fellas... grow a pair and use 'em. It's starting to sound like a blog of 'The View'.

Chris, Is there anyone else you want to include on your apology list?

OK Chris - you obviously felt the need to seriously address some issues. You did.

Now I get to have fun with you.

" I can toot that healthy thing a bit too loud sometimes."

Yeah. I think you recommended that someone drink juice once. Or maybe it was " walk." I was outraged. I need to apologize for writing your name on bathroom stalls and starting a whisper campaign with Dan Packard that you be banned from here.

I'm sorry.

So if you get any calls at your place of work asking for " a good time " - be ready with something good. If you get a bag of " rice " in the mail, you can blame that on my poor penmanship. Trust me. It could have been worse had I not had a few drinks and my pen wasn't running low on ink.

And Dan, if you are reading this, you can take Chris off my list of people that should be banned. I'll send you an updated pdf later - with proof and pictures and warrants and stinking badges.

Either way I won't talk about your video poker gambling to anyone, Chris.

>>I need to apologize to Herb and Broadway

Chris...apology accepted and I am sorry if I have offended anyone here...my intent has always to share my views of what's in my heart/God's heart in a tactful/respectful way. Chris, do have to admit some of your postings have concerned me but our faith/God is bigger than all of what's going on here and has not changed my admiration for you and your ideas!

Confession...good for the soul...

Chris: Nobody's asked You, so I will. How did you come to this conclusion? If this had been Monday, I'd say You heard it in Church. Was it a book You're reading?

"How did you come to this conclusion?"

Watching the movie "Lord, Save Us From Your Followers." A confessional booth was set up at Waterfront Park during the Gay/Lesbian Pride weekend. The producer and host of the film invited people into the confessional. He’s an Evangelical Christian and for the most part, gays, lesbians and transgender people joined him in the booth.

At one point he apologized to them for being bigoted and naive and insensitive towards gays. Then he apologized to them on how the church has treated them. Several broke down in tears and were deeply thankful for hearing this.... for the first time.

Many of the gays/lesbians came from Christian homes and knew their bible quite well but had felt unloved and unaccepted by the church.

Craig this showed me the power of an apology. First you lower a wall between yourself and the person you're apologizing too, which then in turn, hopefully, creates an environment of constructive dialogue.

When my wife and I have a heated discussion I usually find myself needing a time out to gather my emotions and thoughts. Once I have had that time alone to think about my position and hers and then realize just how wrong I was, the moment I apologize to her our defenses are lowered and our discussion is more positive. Usually within minutes we are laughing and making jokes about it.

Apologies help heal hurt feelings. It’s one of the many ways we can build a bridge between our differences and create a constructive atmosphere.

Now when I read posts from people on this board I disagree with, I will try and keep this attitude in mind and be more mindful of what I post. It’s easy for me to go to the cheap shot or name-calling, but is that really necessary to make my point.

And sometimes it’s best to say nothing at all.

And yes Digitaldextor I owe several apologies to you as well.

Craig, did that answer your question?

Who wants to address the difference between acceptance vs. tolerance? This is not a question of whether one has the 'right' to behaviour as they see fit.

But how can acceptance of an unscriptural lifestyle be considered a virtue? Because while Jesus threw no stones at the adulteress at the well, he did admonish her to repent...to go and sin no more.

"Like the woman at the well, you will first have to traverse the barriers, in your own soul, that stand between you and Christ. For her, this meant confronting her prejudice toward Jews, her distrust of men, and her religious traditions. Your barriers may be far different, but whatever they are, they must be confronted.

You must also be willing to deal with the sin that is choking your soul. In the case of the woman at the well, she had lived a lifestyle of wantonness and immorality. Until she was willing to face these sins and turn from them, her spiritual thirst would never be quenched.

It is no different with you; no matter what types of sins have dominated your life, you must be willing to see them in the light of God’s Word so that you can repent from them and be free at last.

Once she responded to Jesus, it was time for the woman at the well to drink. Although Scripture does not record what was involved, we know from the fruit we see later in her life that she definitely drank of the living waters.

For some of you, this will mean turning to Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior. Once you have done this, the deep thirst of your heart will finally be quenched. Others of you who are Christians already have a spring in your heart; you have simply either plugged it up through sin or refused to drink from it on a regular basis.

As you repent of sin and begin to seek God daily through His Word and prayer, your soul will be filled with the life and vitality which only “living water” can bring."

http://jimlaffoon.wordpress.com/2007/10/30/lessons-from-the-life-of-jesus-the-wo man-at-the-well/

Herb

Deleted as not in keeping with the spirit of the thread...

Sorry...

I admire your self control.

Herb

"Craig, did that answer your question?"

Yes, Thanks!

"And sometimes it’s best to say nothing at all."

Many times I've written posts only to read them and delete them before posting officially or coming back later and deleting them.

I've found in this fast posting world, there's no time to reflect on what you've said, un-like writing a composition, where you have a chance to walk away and come back later and re-read what you've written.

There is always your favorite word processor or text editor.

If you think a contribution might be a problem, write it up, then mull it over for a time.

I've done this in many situations. Frequently, that first thought of it being a problem is an accurate one! Also the core of the message is usually something that could be said and potentially something that needs to be said.

So, get it down, work it over, and say it better!

Herb, tolerance -vs- acceptance is not an either or proposition. It's also complex as both words carry significant implications, depending on the context.

For this context:

Understanding that somebody holds a belief that differs from our own lies at the root of the discussion. Without this understanding, there can be no empathy, no ability to think from the other persons perspective.

Working through that gets one to acceptance.

Acceptance is not agreement, simply coming to terms with reality.

Tolerance is how we deal with that reality.

Again, dealing is not agreeing.

If we can achieve both, then we have a basis for greater discussion.

"Acceptance is not agreement, simply coming to terms with reality."

Whose and what reality?

Sounds like it's okay when liberals define their reality, no matter how squishy and undefensible it is:

Don't wear fur.
Cars are bad.
It's good to be gay.
All drugs should be legal.
Euthanasia is fine.

However, certain realities, like that of a human baby having the life sucked out of his or her little skull doesn't matter.

But it's entirely unacceptable for a spotted owl to be relocated.

This is a classic case of the left wanting it both ways.

Let's take ye olde sacred cow of Caribou being endangered by the installation of the Alaska pipeline:

"It turns out that the pipeline, heated as it must be to keep the oil moving, became a sort of babe magnet for the caribou, who, not surprisingly, were drawn to the warmth!"

http://www.gasdetection.com/news2/health_news_digest56.html

You get the point?

Herb

Just reality Herb.

eg: I believe very different things than you do.

That's reality.

I accept that to be true, as should you.

Tolerance then, is all about how we handle that going forward.

The rest of the stuff you posted really is at a different level.

'Tolerance then, is all about how we handle that going forward.'

That sounds reasonable.

But that 'rest of the stuff' is precisely the kind of detail not addressed by generalising kum-bah-yah statements.

That 'rest of the stuff' does however address specifics of WHAT to expect 'to handle going forward.'

It's also questionable to avoid addressing such issues by suggesting that they're on 'a different level.' Otherwise, it all remains generalities and nothing changes.

Unlike some of your prior statements, and in spite of my inability to always do so, I believe it IS important to 'play nice,' or at least try.

But I'd far rather not 'play nice' than doom precious innocents to death. Mark Hatfield and I agree on that one thing.

Herb

You mean like the way we are dooming some of our own innocent sons and daughters to death by sending them to fight in "W's War"? Or are they only innocent until they are born then they are just future conscripts?

Classic case of trying to change the subject when the heat is on.

We don't have a draft.

Unlike our brave troops, the unborn never asked to be placed into harm's way.

Herb

The unborn aren't born yet and aren't viable. As the father of two miscarriages, I understand this to be true. The brave troops are already born, viable, and on this earth. It's more important to protect the here and now than it is the possiblies or maybes. You have your priorities backwards.

Leave it to you to trash a good thread with yet another digression to abortion. You're a one note Charlie.

Er, ah, that's 'one note Johnny,' to you.

When you take an indefensible position, don't be surprised when you're called on it.

The same thing happened with slavery.

Herb

Slavery is forcing a woman to give birth.

Sorry for raining on your Parade Chris, I got sucked into the Herb-A-VOID and temporarily went brain-dead.

Carry on with please!

And I guess this digression is an object lesson.

We should be able to talk about things, and recognize where we are strong, without having to just hit the hot button all the time.

Sorry all. Thought the acceptance / tolerance bit would be an interesting bit to follow, given the thread topic.

What do you expect from someone that has ZERO tolerance and acceptance within themselves?

I thought we might see that, but have some discussion surrounding it.

Of course, that's going to leave a bad impression, so we get the dodges instead!

False comparison, subject change.

The unborn never asked to be placed into harm's way.

But yet if we have it YOUR way Herbocrite then thousands upon THOUSANDS of unborn babies will be continuously killed in Iraq.
YOUR actions have put them in harms way!

Not surprised this thread has taken off into another topic. We do that around here.

I'm not even bothered by it but am sorry the topic chosen has been beaten to death with no new ground and the same old talking points.

The tolerance vs. acceptance topic turn did interest me. I thought both Herb and Missing were generally onto some decent discussion.

But since I did start this thread I will hijack part of it with a link to the movie that inspired this conversation in the first place.

Go to this link:
http://www.lordsaveusthemovie.com/films2.html

Then click on the 4th thumbnail top row right.

Then I encourage you to click on the other thumbnails too. Particularly second row 3rd from the right.

HerrBocrite sez:

"Classic case of trying to change the subject when the heat is on."

Actually Mr. Troll-Baiter, YOU are the first one that is guilty of exactly that (above) at 1:27 pm.

YOU changed the direction of this whole thread!!!

We can put it back.

So, tolerance is often characterized as kum-bah-yah, weak, grey, relative, etc...

This is a cop-out, big!

It's more about handling people well, even if they are quite different. Personally, I think this takes strength. It's easy not to do this.

Between the snarks and sparks in this thread are some great answers to this question:

"Who wants to address the difference between acceptance vs. tolerance?"

Love.

Love takes life warts and all. Love builds on common ground and works out the details over time. A big part of love is acceptance. It is impossible to separate the two.

The act of tolerance is different. It is rooted in endurance. One tolerates a person or group of people to be polite. One tolerates a bad situation. One tolerates rain, toothaches and noise.

Some say that we ought to "tolerate" differences of opinion, or "tolerate" a religion, race or sexual orientation. The word "tolerate" is not often said in love. It is the key of false kindness that opens the door of indifference.

Being tolerant means that the world around you is invisible. It is what allows folks who might feel great rage or strong distaste for someone or an idea to not lash out. It does not promote any sort of understanding. Tolerance never walks a mile in another person's shoes.

Being accepting means that you see it all, take it in for better or worse, and draw your own conclusions. It is a constant process of expanding your universe. You see things from more than one point of view. Acceptance does not mean you approve of everything, just that you understand it.

IMHO YMMV.

LS in other words, being "tolerant" you're still holding onto intolerance at some level.

Tolerance isn't an endorsement, it's acceptance.

That's a killer post LS.

Gonna digest a bit and hope we continue!

Chris, absolutely!

There is an unyielding nature to tolerance. It is about putting on a game face. It is a bluff. Smiling with all the warmth of a tarp in the snow. It is keeping your heart off your sleeve and in a strongbox.

How many folks do you see avoiding eye contact in a public place with people that are different? Half? Almost all? One could argue that they are tolerant, but not the least bit accepting.

I believe that to accept something, you must engage it, explore it and figure it out. Acceptance does not require you to change your mind about something, only to open it up to understanding.

(Thanks Missing!)

Yes! Exactly.

And that just takes some work.

It also takes control of fear and for that, I think we also need self-acceptance, otherwise it's just naive or foolhardy.

This is kind of a digression, but there is another element to this whole thing too. Was driving on 26 today. Lots of people, in their cars, focused on whatever it is they are focused on.

I get the feeling that each of those people is in their car, their place. Disruptions from outside are generally unwelcome, yet we observe detached at everyone else...

Then this car passes with a little girl, looking out the back window, scanning the cars, watching the faces, so I gave her a razzberry and waved!

She lit up, waved back and smiled huge, then grew sad as her car and mine changed paths. For a moment, I think we were friends. It's a very simple thing, shallow too. But it's human.

There are lots of times where I've seen this same scenario play out and felt this inhibition and that inhibition resulted in me not making a connection.

Why?

When I do, it's usually fun. There is no harm, yet most of us, a very large percentage of the time, just don't. My thought this time was, "Not today." It was at a low level, just floating there, and I'm not quite sure why this day was different from any other day.

The more interesting bit is the kids. More often than not, they are looking just to see if anybody is looking back, yet we adults normally don't.

IMHO, we lose something as we grow older and perhaps jaded and that something is directly related to the avoiding of eye contact bit Littlesongs mentioned.

Sidebar -

I got this in my inbox at dj@salemfm.com. Much like Chris, I am having a hard time telling if this is sincere or not;

" how dare you even in jest, spreat a flase roumer about chris and video poker. this is how false rommers get startet. i've worked with chris before in pdx radio. and have been a friend for about 20 years. retracet that comment now. or ill complain to dan. steve taylor. ( no relation)."

My gut tells me that it's just an example of taking out what I dish out. ( Sarcasm, on some level ) I can deal with that. I have no idea who sent it to me ( that is to say, I didn't recognize the email address ). In fact, I'd like to laugh at it. There are many reasons to laugh. But whomever sent that to me, just say so here and we'll deal with it.

And if you were joking; Sorry to step on your punchline. We can try and giggle about it once I know for sure that you are kidding.

But if you are serious, we will discuss it here.

Sidebar -

CJ, Steve has written me before and asked me to elaborate or explain a position. In my experience, he is a reasonable, sincere and decent fellow. I believe he is just trying to protect the reputation of a friend. I know it was totally and utterly in jest on your part and not malicious. That is why it was so funny! The important point is that everybody knows what was said about Chris was in the spirit of fun and completely untrue. I understand why he would want you to make that clear to anyone in the industry who might stumble on your post.

Steve has also written me regarding something I said on the other side.

His tone was a bit brusque, but I understood why...

Engineers! LOL

Creepy. This is why I don't post my email address because that invites the nutballs to invade your space.

I've known Steve, like he said in CJ's email, for at least 20 years. He's an old radio guy like myself. He's a good egg with a sincere heart. He does walk to the beat of his own drum. But that's what makes him endearing to me.

I talked with Steve earlier this week about non-pdxradio stuff and it was a quality conversation. We have a long history and I appreciate his friendship all these years.

I have received other emails from posters and lurkers alike from this message board. Some have been a bit hard to read others deeply moving and entertaining.

Since what I do for living requires having a web site, which has my email address, I have no problem posting it on my bio. No one has abused it up to now.

I've gotten plenty too.

The easy fix for this is to just have a public e-mail. Easy cheezy. Filter the nut-bags, leave the rest.

When you take an indefensible position, don't be surprised when you're called on it.

So that's why you ALWAYS fall flat Herbocrite???