Once again, another child member of the Followers of Christ Church in Oregon City has died needlessly and suffered great pain in the process. The sixteen year old died from an infection that could have been EASILY treated by a medical professional. Instead of seeking medical attention for the boy, members of the church prayed for his recovery. Sadly, prayer in this case didn’t seem to heal his easily treatable ailment.

Sickly ironic, the boy who died is a relative of the young girl that passed away several months ago who also was a member of the same church.

This is not religion, it's murder and should be tried as such.

Agreed.

God gave us doctors and healing.

Luke was a physician.

http://www.icr.org/article/480/

Herb

I just shake my head and ask how and why.

It goes to show just how powerful brainwashing can be.

Well I thought God can do anything Herb.

I think for each dead child, an adult must be sacrificed. This will help thin the herd.

>>an adult must be sacrificed. This will help thin the herd

oh great...liberal cannibalistic sacrifices

The individuals/leadership in this church will "pay" in this life and the next for this horribly misguided philosophy.

>> God can do anything

Lord! You made the heavens and earth by your strong hand and powerful arm. Nothing is too hard for you! Jer 32

"cannibalistic"?

"Liberal?"

Ahem... WTF?!?

This is horrible.

I think the individuals should pay right now, just in case they don't actually pay later! Call it a known payment for a known crime.

"Well I thought God can do anything Herb."

http://www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2004/september/30.80.html

http://www.catholiceducation.org/articles/apologetics/ap0032.html

http://answers.org/apologetics/suffering.html

The most convenient thing about god is that you can make up just about anything you want. It's a never ending explanation for the unexplainable.

>>unexplainable

Indescribable would be more appropriate

>>you can make up

you won't on judgement day.

"you won't on judgement day."

As far as you know (which of course you don't, you're just repeating what someone else told you who doesn't know, who heard it from somebody who doesn't know either).

“Our constitution was made for a moral and religious people; it is wholly inadequate for any other.” John Adams

I have faith in a living Creator God just as I have faith in the chair I'm sitting on now to hold me and faith that their is a brain inside your head...God and your brain I can't see but I still believe.

Hebrews 11 Faith is the confidence that what we hope for will actually happen; it gives us assurance about things we cannot see.

Faith doesn't mean fact, and I deal in facts, not hearsay.

“Our constitution was made for a moral and religious people; it is wholly inadequate for any other.” John Adams

Nice quote, Herb. I'm not sure what meaning you are deriving from it as quoted, but let's capture the full quote to see what it's really saying:


"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion. Our Constitution was made for only a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other."

In short, our Constitution is incapable of governing those without morals and those without religion; it is not that powerful. For American government to work, the people must have a basic moral or religious code to begin with. Therefore, morality and religiosity, working in conjunction with the Constitution, are necessary to achieve the "blessings of liberty".

I don't think anyone on this board would disagree with Adam's sentiment.

Ed, you're a little over optimistic about what makes up this board.

Edselehr, I would like to agree with your statement 'I don't think anyone on this board would disagree with Adam's sentiment.'

However, I concur with Deane. There's quite a bit of ham-fisted Bible bashing around here. Having said that, I'm really encouraged by your intellectual honesty in including the full quote:

"In short, our Constitution is incapable of governing those without morals and those without religion; it is not that powerful. For American government to work, the people must have a basic moral or religious code to begin with."

If liberals are truly NOT AGAINST religious belief, particularly when it comes to Jesus Christ, then that is a good thing and MORE CLOSELY to what our founding fathers believed.

Herb

We're all moral people here, and agree that morality is essential to a properly functioning government and a just society.

We disagree on what morality is. Some think it defined best by the political right, others think it is best defined by the political left. Some cannot (or will not) recognize any morality that isn't based on or filtered through religion. Some see established religion as the antithesis of true morality.

But we're all trying, the best we can, to be fair to ourselves and fair to others; we're all looking for a moral life, because we know how important it is to have one, just as Adams stated.

If that's optimism, then I guess I'm Nellie Forbush.

I appreciate your openness, Edselher.

It's a refreshing departure from the bomb-throwing anti-faith rantings emanating from Vitalogy.

Herb

I appreciate your openness, Edselher.

It's a refreshing departure from the mindless pro-faith rantings emanating from Herb and Broadway.

Mindlessness manifests itself in copying others.

Herb

Mindlessness requires a crutch to prop it up.

Are you two going to stop, or do I have to pull this car over????

I know I started this on another thread but the documentary "Lord, Save Us From Your Followers" discusses this very pattern of discussion.

Anytime we get into a debate on faith or no faith it's like watching that movie. I mean word for word at times.

I think the film needs to be reviewed by all of us at sometime. Each side is given equal chance to share their side of the story- however the movie goes much deeper for it's conclusions.

Back to the OP...

Not so ironic when you realize that nearly every member of that "church" is related. Them's quite inbred, as any OCHS alumni can tell you...

I just saw the president of this church on KGW News Channel 8 as he was being interviewed by reporter Mike Benner. The church president was wearing eyeglasses. I realize you can purchase eyeglasses over the counter. But most people see an OD or an MD for an eyeglass prescription. It seems a bit contradictory to deny a child medical attention but allow an adult member of this church the option of seeing a medical professional to fill an eyeglass prescription.

I'd love to know about praying over the cleaning of teeth or the filing or a root canal.

>>I'd love to know about praying over the cleaning of teeth or the filing or a root canal


Me to!

Herb sez: "There's quite a bit of ham-fisted Bible bashing around here."

Perhaps its because we're tired of having select quotes suited for your narrow views jammed down our throats.

If you don't knock it off, I'm gonna buy a Fargo-brand chipper and put your throat down it. Since God hasn't struck me with a lightning bolt, I take it I have His approval.

ham-fisted

What do you mean by this?

Ham-fisted is a running meme here, inspired by Herb, and his use of "ham-fisted" to refer to what he believes are poorly conceived, heavy, personal attacks.

Think heavy handed, plus excessive, mix in some sloppy and you are getting close to "ham-fisted"!!!

Not to be confused with fisting!

Bada-bOOM! I'll be here all night folks, get 'yer drinks from the nice lady at the bar.

'Ham-fisted is a running meme here, inspired by Herb, and his use of "ham-fisted" to refer to what he believes are poorly conceived, heavy, personal attacks.

Think heavy handed, plus excessive, mix in some sloppy and you are getting close to "ham-fisted"!!!'

Well stated, Missing_kskd.

Herb 'make mine with mustard' Ham-fist

Fisting with mustard....

Thanks for the visual.

I think he deserves fresh wasabi, don't you?

Yes, and may he suck it up his nose!