Has his way with the military.

How come we didn't hear about this on the mainstream media?

Hmmmm. Nope. No bias in the media. Right.

http://pop.youtube.com/watch?v=VUZD7pqFjI4&feature=related

http://pop.youtube.com/watch?v=YmPhXd9aW74

http://www.cnsnews.com/viewpolitics.asp?page=/politics/archive/200803/pol2008030 4d.html

I for one don't want to learn to speak Korean or Farsi or Russian. English is just fine with me.

So, we vote for McCain right?

Bill and Deane, if you could consolidate your ultra-conservative media scare references a bit, we could save Dan some bandwidth here.

Even if Barack Obama was 10X the pacifist you righties dream him to be, he couldn't do the damage to the US military that George W. Bush has done the last seven years. In any case, as usual your fears are groundless.

Andrew

This is the kind of paranoia that allowed the Republicans to consolidate their power for six years.

Missing - Right!

Warner - It's OK to point out McCain's weaknesses but not Obama's? And how is pointing out how he wants to cut the military a media scare tactic? The world is not all lollipops and cotton candy like many of the LIEberals think.

Andrew - Everything is Bush's fault. I get it now. I suspect he called in the rain to flood the midwest too.

I don't see it as a weakness. I think the military should be cut as well. Way too much fat.

LIEberals!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well, it's fair to say that the RePOOPlican's Shit Most Defineately Stinks as well.

Well, no.

The downsides of McCain are just HUGE, and that was my point. All that is happening here, and it will happen throughout the election cycle, is the attempt to make Obama look bad enough to justify choosing a KNOWN bad Republican, Bush Third Term choice, McCain.

Sorry man, it's not gonna happen.

These are hit jobs Skybill.

If we have a core policy discussion, McCain just sucks. He's old, he can't remember, he's almost completely owned by Corporate Lobby Interests, he voted with Bush 90 percent, or better, of the time, and his party has had the biggest string of scandals, debt and corruption we've seen to date.

The big thing people are forgetting about Obama is that it's not going to be a "ram it through" his way or no way deal. That's what the Republicans do, not the Democrats and in particular, not Obama.

Those military decisions are going to be evaluated, just like any other decision is. From there, it's not gonna be the end of the world.

Again, that's what the Republicans do. The reason we are facing horrible choices, taxes and a lot of work, is that they DIDN'T try to do the right things.

In fact, the default mode of the Republican party seems to be to just fuck something up, and make money doing that. Then go and fuck up the fix too, making money on that as well.

The combined result is this "government can't work" shock and awe circle jerk that's getting really old.

They want us to just hand everything over to private interests, mostly because they can then fuck things up repeatedly, while the risk lies on us the tax payers, but also because they then don't actually have to deal with us and the process that put them into power in the first place.

These kinds of things are where the problems are.

These are the kinds of things we cannot allow to continue forward, and that's what McCain is all about.

Tell you what. I'll actually entertain this crap when you post up something where McCain is just flat out BETTER than Obama, and that thing being worth consideration, not just some overblown niche thing that detracts from the major league ugly sores we are looking at otherwise.

Trying to get that old man elected by talking down Obama isn't the way out of our troubles. It might end up putting the old guy in the white house, but it's not gonna actually fix anything, you know it, I know it, and most people know it.

Want a Republican in the white house?

Great, go and tell me what that Republican is gonna do for me, and how that Republican is going to fix the totally fucked state of things left us by the same Republicans trying to get them elected.

That means specifics, ideas, ideologies, and such that compare favorably to the ones that Obama has put on the table, not some booga, booga crap that marginalizes the whole discussion.

I don't see it as a weakness. I think the military should be cut as well. Way too much fat.

Sure you do.

The down side is that it makes our country vulnerable. But hey, we can negotiate with the terrorists and evil doers. They'll listen and be nice.

The plus side is it gives more money for socialist government handouts and that's what the democrats want and are all about.

Hell, our country is vulnerable now. We are broke, many nations pissed at us, not trusting us, backing out of treaties, ignoring common law, you name it.

I don't know who's thinking is more frightening, Obomba's or the lefties on this forum. Come to think of it, there's not too much difference.

There is so much pork in the military budget that billions and billions could be cut without nary a change in how safe we are as a nation.

Bill, I see how you deflected my point, which is that you supposedly care about the military (hence your worry about Obama decimating it), yet you have stood by for seven years while Bush has done great damage to it. So apparently you don't give a damn what a Republican president does to ruin the military? Only what a Democrat might do?

Andrew

Bush sent our troops to a war that you (and the rest of the liberals) don't like.

I still support the fact that we did what we did, but I, like most everyone here, feel that we need to stat winding it down and force the Iraqi's to take on more and of the responsibilities and work towards bringing our soldiers home.

Saying that "I'll pull them out in 60 days" like Hillary did is a crock of caca and won't happen.

Sure soldiers have died but when they sign up for the military, being sent off to fight is a known possibility before they sign on the dotted line.

I'm not making light of their deaths. Each and every one of the soldiers was someone's Mother, Father, Son or Daughter and my heart goes out to each and every one of their families.

Damage to the military is your opinion.

The thing some forget is that George W. Bush and Dick Cheney lied about key elements of why the United States felt provoked to launch a full scale war against Iraq. Everything from WMD’s to Saddam Hussein’s alleged tied to Al Qaeda (which has proven to be untrue) -- all a series of lies.

George W. Bush, Dick Cheney and the entire neo-conservative cabal had decided in early 1990’s that war with Iraq was justified (per Paul Wolfowitz’s paper on the subject written in the early 1990’s). It just took them a decade to secure power and find a path to war. And with 9/11, they found their path. Too, they couldn't even wage war correctly, pressuring the military to do it on the cheap. In the end, it’s costs thousands of lives, tens of thousands injured and $700 billion dollars.

We should have limited our efforts to Afghanistan, found Osama bin-Laden, returned him to the United States for trial and assuredly convict him of mass murder/genocide.

When this is all over, the military will most assuredly use the template of the Iraqi War as a guide on how not to wage war. George W. Bush and Dick Cheney are not different from Lyndon Johnson picking bombing targets from inside the White House during Vietnam, especially Dick Cheney. I could just see Cheney in the Situation Room at the White House playing solider instead of doing it when he should have been fighting in Vietnam – thank you Student Deferment. Let us not forget Champagne George, playing tennis and chasing women in Alabama rather than doing what he was paid to do. Both of them are hypocrites to the highest order.

I'm not even talking about the combat deaths in Iraq - I'm talking about the way our military has been pointlessly stretched to the breaking point just to maintain a go-it-alone approach in Iraq, mostly so Bush can leave office without a "defeat" on his watch.

Our military did not have to be stretched this long this badly, and it could have been avoided without even pulling out of Iraq. What about all of our allies??? While the surge was beginning, countries like the British were pulling troops out. How on earth did the Bush administration let that happen??? It could only because we either pissed them off or refused to let them have part of the "spoils" of Iraq - the long-term contracts for rebuilding and oil rights. An administration that hadn't pissed everyone off could have convinced our allies to help us in Iraq, even if that meant giving them something in return like some sort of economic benefit.

The cost to our military beyond combat is going to be long-term but brutal: the 15-month deployments (sometimes repeated) take their toll on marriages and families, children raised with daddy or mommy gone for a year. The lives derailed or ruined, by physical or mental injuries which may never heal. Of course, let's not forget the record Army suicides in 2007. You can't simply boil this damage down to some number of killed; the damage to our military has been almost unimaginable.

So don't talk to me about how worried you are about the military under Obama, Bill, because we haven't heard a peep out of you while your guy George has wrecked it and many thousands of lives of those who didn't get killed by an IED or a suicide bomber. Why not admit that you have kept quiet only because Bush is a Republican? And you're suddenly worried about what a Democrat might do?

Andrew

Beat it to death, beat it to death! Bush isn't running. Now, should we throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Obomba will be Jimmie Carter's second term.

You'd be a moron not to run "in part" against the FAILED Bush presidency. George W. Bush is a failure -- and 75 percent of the American people agree. Change comes in many forms, but John McCain isn’t one of them. Whether you like his brand of change, Barack Obama is a breath of fresh air after eight years of being run ragged by the biggest soothsayer since Jean Dixon.

Yeah, McCain is running for him.

If we reaffirm Republican power, we essentially sanction what happened.

McCain has stuck with Bush on 90 percent of his decisions, that's a third term coming. Just on the off chance he isn't smart enough to know better and really does want to change things, he won't be able to.

He won't be able to because he's owned, lock stock and barrel from corporate money, and his party is desperate to keep as many people out of prison as they can.

And Deane, yes. Absolutely, it's gonna get beat to death. Remember back when a whole lot of us said that if Republicans break it, they own it?

Welcome to the Ownership Society.

To a large and growing daily segment of the population, Republican is a dirty word. Don't believe me?

Go and look at the number of Republicans, not saying Republican, hiding from public appearances with Bush, saying GOP and American as much as they can.

It's a dirty word because the party doesn't understand how to govern. They are so wrapped up in their privatize it, government can't work, ideology that it's become reality. For them, government doesn't actually work.

Look around man. It's not hard to miss, and it isn't easily excused on such a large scale.

One other thing. If the Republican party had ANYTHING that was even close to a viable choice that would do us some good, they would be all over it, working it hard, not letting any of us miss what it is.

Republicans are good at that kind of thing. Message control is something to be admired.

There is no solid message! That's why we are gonna hear this "democrats are [insert booga booga here]" crap for the whole cycle. That's the only real chance the Republican party has!

Losers, all of them. Loosers to greed, corruption, blind ideology, you name it. They cultivated the 23 percent of us, axe grinders, and used them like tools to win elections.

Even some of those people are pissed! They are pissed because they took a lot of crap and still didn't get their pet issue legislated.

They will stay though. They will stay because nobody else wants them.

This leaves the Republican party seeking to divide everybody else, unified in a simple desire to make things better because they are getting bad enough to really be a concern.

The party will try Race, they will try lies and manupulations, they will try confusion, they will try buying votes, you name it.

What they won't try and can't try is to actually go back, evaluate what happened, make party changes, actually consider serving the people instead of the mega corps, and run on the result of that.

We won't see that until they are about a third of the size they were prior to the 2006 referendum on them.

That's gonna happen, then the remaining Republicans can go through their 5 stages of grief and be better Republicans for having done it.

When that's happened, then we can start talking about what Republicans bring to the table, not before.

The "military" is not synonymous with our "troops" at all. I certainly hope you are aware that mercenaries and contractors outnumber our troops in Iraq. They cost much more than a strong combat force, they break international laws and thanks to some maneuvering by the Americans, they are immune from prosecution. They get the gravy while the Army gets the beans.

The latest giant step to help our troops is the GI Bill. It was crafted in the Senate by Jim Webb and co-sponsored by Barack Obama. Like many in the GOP including the shrub, John McCain opposed it. If you took the time to check the record, you would find that efforts for body armor, in-depth training, safer vehicles and the meeting of basic needs have been made almost exclusively by the Democrats. They also have made progress helping the families at home and investigating abuses against combat troops, poor medical care for Veterans, billions in stolen or misappropriated funds and the ill treatment of prisoners.

All of this has been met with stiff resistance from the Republicans. Fighting this war was unwise, but throwing our troops and their families under the bus is a partisan move owned by the GOP. If you are angry about that fact, tell your legislators. It seems to me that the Republicans might have been more sympathetic to the needs of our heroes if their constituents had stood up for the troops.

I have been filling e-mail boxes in Congress for years on behalf of the servicemen and women. If you have not -- and your party is still standing in the way -- you own it too. Either do something about it, or shut up already.

I'm sitting with a bunch of Marines right now. Thanked them for taking all the crap, because that's exactly what they signed up to do. We are all at a hotel enjoying a really happy hour! The Beer and Wine lady just won't stop!

God bless her! I'm downing a coupla these for Dark!

(and about half of them think it's crap too, BTW)

So we talk about some stuff. One very striking bit of conversation comes down to how they are going to handle their families. It could be easier, but they will basically deal as much as they have to to serve. All part of the package.

And this they tell me unabashedly. Get it done types, just working really hard to get it all done.

Republicans take advantage of this, knowing their obligations and willingness to serve will take then right over the line and then some.

It's abuse and it really sucks.

I don't ask who they are looking for President because it's not appropriate. I listen to the things they talk about and they are simple things we all talk about.

And the point of that is they are people, just as we are people. Only they decided to hand over a lot of their lives and the potential to lose them, so that we can just live ours the best we are able.

To abuse that is just unforgivable. It's not about money. Hell, we borrowed so much money that borrowing more to take care of our enlisted people isn't even on the radar.

I have to admit I don't even fully understand why this would not be done. I couldn't sleep if it was my decision.

soothsayer...

Nice word use man.

I just heard that the right wing hate machine is demanding evidence that Senator Obama was actually born in the United States. These are the kinds of ad hominem attacks we will be hearing from the right wing bigot brigade this summer and fall. They have nothing to offer, so it’s undiluted hate speech that would make Jesse Helms grin and sing “Whistling Dixie”.

What I can’t wait to see are the conservative 527's joining forces with latently racist organizations and prove their crassness in their attempt to derail the Obama candidacy. It’s going to shine some light on something many of us have known for years. Rush Limbaugh and his ilk don’t repeatedly make veiled racist remarks for the fun of it.

and we get Bigot Brigade too!

Keep 'em coming Talpdx! Nicely done.

Yeah, if they are asking that, you know they've got nothing substantial, so it's all about the shotgun approach. Keep throwing it out there, regularly, substantially and often, hoping something sticks, then milk the hell out of it, hoping for some miracle.

Right on Missing. There is a reason we use the term "citizen soldiers" to describe our fighting force. Forcing the government to make them top priority is not in the GOP playbook and has not been since the days of Eisenhower. Cheers to the Marines! I am sure there is nothing sweeter than a stateside suds salute to service.

Talpdx is spot on. It will do them little good to raise the citizenship question when their candidate was born in Panama. Considering the bloodshed and terror that Hawaii went through before statehood, I am sure there are more than a few folks in those parts who are pretty pissed right about now.

"Rush Limbaugh and his ilk don’t repeatedly make veiled racist remarks for the fun of it."

No kidding. Many of the power corporate types I'm interacting with this week, express a genuine fear that we could have a Black President, who might actually go and force some change that will help the little guy out.

I fear we are gonna have to work for it. So far, so good. The swift boat crowd is gearing up, hopefully the party has merged, and will begin exploiting all that Obama learned while building his millions of active supporters.

One nice data point is that I got three e-mails with the same message. Been tagging these over time to see who sells to who, and who leverages who.

Obama has got the major big lists now. All of them, including many older Clinton list members and is speaking to all of them at one time, one message. The back end dealings involved in party unity appear to be happening as they should.

Now it's up to the party to get out there and make it solid and quick!

...are so wrapped up in their privatize it, government can't work, ideology that it's become reality.

That's because there is absolutely nothing the government can do (except maybe the military) that private industry can't do much better and cheaper.

I just heard that the right wing hate machine is demanding evidence that Senator Obama was actually born in the United States. You don't think that Clinton could have started that? Don't count WW (Wonder Witch) out yet.

If I was Obama I wouldn't turn my back on her or trust her any further than he can pick up the White House and throw it.

"If I was Obama I wouldn't turn my back on her or trust her any further than he can pick up the White House and throw it."

Maybe another metaphor is needed here. Bush managed to throw The White House into the toilet. A bulls-eye at that too.

Skybill, if that's true, how come so many private contracts have gone bad?

I think we need to question that, given the motive of the company these days is to make the most money it can for it's share holders.

How can it do that and go faster and cheaper for us?

Edit: If we do this, and there is real competition, then maybe. I'm open to that. Lots of people are, Democrats and all.

But, it's not some magic pixie dust. Just saying, "take it private" does not insure a fix. If we have people saying government can't work, then it just won't work. We will create our own reality.

That is one of the primary problems with the Republican party right now.

Beat it to death, beat it to death! Bush isn't running. Now, should we throw the baby out with the bathwater?

Like YOU do with Clinton? He's been out of office for 8 years and YOU still beat him to death every GD day!!!!!!!!

Skybill, if that's true, how come so many private contracts have gone bad?

Because of corruption and graft, both in the private sector and in the political arena.

Corporations make "donations" to the politicians so the politicians will "award" them the contracts.

It's a vicious circle.

For way too many years corporations have overcharged the government for everything. $600 hammers just because it is being sold to the military or government is just stupid.

The blame, I think is 2 fold. The companies for screwing the government and the government for allowing it.

One thing, though, in defense of the companies is that I've heard that sometimes it takes forever to get paid by the government. It doesn't justify the screwing, but might explain some of it.

Someone in the government has to approve the expenditure and he invoice. When they see something outrageous come in there should be some way for them to flag it and have it investigated.

All of that does not support the idea that we need private corporations doing everything.

Frankly, I'm opposed to that without significant regulation.

Medicare works nicely. In fact, it's overhead is a small fraction of that typical of the private health care scene.

Social Security works too.

A single pay health care system, modeled off of medicare, would work well, and would eliminate a TON of have to make money every single quarter private companies from what is a bloated and highly discriminatory, fend for your self system.

Again, my point here is that the Republicans have a hammer and everything looks like a nail.

Problem?

Cut the funding for it.

Still got a problem?

Privatize it?

Bad stuff still happening?

Contract with somebody else to fix it.

All paid for by us! There is very little incentive to get this stuff right when we are on the hook for the risk, not the private interests.

They always make their money, even if the stuff or services are not delivered.

That's a problem, and this administration is knee deep into it.

I don't see the Republicans admitting that, nor do I see them taking steps to fix that.

On the Democratic side of things, a mix is discussed. Sometimes it makes sense to privatize, other times it doesn't. There is no one size fits all.

Sorry, with all the corruption, no bid contracts, no accountability, limiting reporting so we can't see the scale of things, and look at all the corporate corruption we've seen.

The financials are a mess! Bad loans, we've got sarbanes oxley now too.

It's just not a viable assumption that running things as a business would run them is the best way.

Business, particularly big business, has not demonstrated that fact.

Skybill writes: One thing, though, in defense of the companies is that I've heard that sometimes it takes forever to get paid by the government. It doesn't justify the screwing, but might explain some of it.

It's not like big companies are any better at paying their bills on time. I've been waiting three months to get paid by the Hearst Corporation for a photo they licensed way back in March. They keep making excuses and asking me to re-submit invoices, etc. So I don't exactly have a lot of sympathy for big companies waiting for government payment - they do it to everyone else too.

Andrew

I guess as long as a person isn't opposed to more regulations, and government interference in their lives, then that's fine.

For me, I want the government to tax me fairly but minimally and provide me with Military protection, police protection and fire protection and that's about it. I don't want or need anything else from them.

I don't want socialist insecurity. I'll provide for my own retirement, thank you. That way I know it will be there. All the socialist insecurity tax does is take money away from people. If they would let us manage our own accounts, then that would be different, but that would de-fund too many pet projects that the morons in Washington have.

I or my employer will provide my medical insurance/services. Health Care is not a constitutionally guaranteed thing.

I'll provide my own transportation. I don't expect anybody to subsidize mine nor me theirs.

The less the government interferes in my life the better.

"All the socialist insecurity tax does is take money away from people"

Ask the millions of seniors who rely on SS. I'm sure they would feel differently.

"If they would let us manage our own accounts, then that would be different."

Yep, and when you blow your account from being stupid and are on the streets, then the taxpayers will still be paying for you.

"Health Care is not a constitutionally guaranteed thing."

Neither are fire, police, roads, etc.

"I'll provide my own transportation. I don't expect anybody to subsidize mine nor me theirs."

You gonna provide the roads and bridges to drive on and the electricty to run the stop lights? Every time you drive your car on the pavement, you are realizing a subsidy of some sort.

Government may not be the answer to everything, but it sure makes sense to pool our resources as a group to achieve better things for all of society.

I don't want socialist insecurity.

Finland, Sweden and Denmark are all F'ed up? Funny I was in Denmark about 8 months ago and the people I talked to LOVE IT. Bumped into 3 or 4 Americas one had been there for 5 years and they love it and the people.
DAMN Socialists!