Well, I'm using an HP big ass laptop to prep for some web presentations. The damn thing came with Vista Home.

How about some Vista love hate discussion?

Some positives:

Clearly Microsoft spent some time looking at other kick ass desktop environments. The Vista desktop is pretty sweet overall. It's got many of the elements I've been enjoying on Linux systems for years now. Thumbs up.

The networking interface usability is high. So is discover ability in general. It's a bit wordy at times, but not an issue, unless one is really just looking for the fewest clicks per function. (I generally ignore this, preferring to have discover ability, largely so I don't have to memorize each and every work flow.)

In terms of functionality, I'm generally happy. I don't do advanced Microsoft networking, because I'm almost always mobile. The limits in Vista Home are not significant, so it's all good.

Multi-media performance is good, but CPU heavy. I've not ran into the DRM mess just yet, but that's very likely because I don't consume DRM media. That's a wash.

Memory foot print is HORRIBLE. Good grief, this is a fat ass OS. 2GB Ram is recommended, IMHO. Anything less, and you've got a single tasking computer for all intents and purposes. Vista will let you make use of an entire 4GB in the 32 bit environment, but it's a wash because it consumes the extra space, just getting up and running.

I suspect there are a batch of tweaks to be done to mitigate that. Really, since they have dumbed down wizards for everything, they should just make this one of them, making that easy.

SP1 has addressed many of the I/O shortcomings seen in the first release. I'm happy with this. Also like the greater level of detail presented in the default tools. XP was limited in this, and it was always annoying. There is enough feed back now to know what's going on for me to feel good about it.

It's been a while since I've been able to just open up a consumer level machine and take it through the steps. Good god, the amount of push selling through the computer has reached OFFENSIVE levels.

Bad on HP for this. Really bad.

I still hope to avoid Vista permanently. I've used it a couple of times on other people's machines. At very least, I will avoid Vista Home and get Vista Business, because I have noticed that Vista Business seems to work better. I was able to install a XP driver for an old HP laser printer driver successfully on a Vista Business (Dell Vostro) laptop, but the same driver would not install on two other Vista Home laptops I tried. Also, I had a client who had purchased a Vista Home machine for a business environment (probably a mistake) and noticed some folder sharing limitations with Home. Basically doesn't seem to be worth hassling with.

My friend with the Vostro laptop and Vista Business is happy with it, however.

I just installed the latest version of Ubuntu Linux on my laptop with XP. This version of Ubuntu has been a bit of a disappointment. While it was the easiest version of Ubuntu yet to install (basically required ZERO user interventions - no drivers, hacks, overrides, nothing), it has had some reliability problems. I've had at least two total lock-ups (the 4-second power-down was required once), and I've had problems with Hibernation and Suspend working properly. I had a bear of a time installing a much earlier version of Ubuntu but once I got it going, I didn't have these problems.

One other really annoying thing about Ubuntu in general that I've never been able to solve is that the touchpad sensitivity just isn't as good as in XP. I've spent over an hour trying to adjust this, with various tools and suggestions found via Google, but nothing has really worked. I'm simply used to the touch and feel of my laptop's touchpad and want it to behave the same way in Ubuntu (in which I frequently must tap two or three times, once HARD, just to get it to accept a "tap" as a "click"). This silly behavior could wind up being a show-stopper for me, believe it or not.

I may simply try another Linux distro but I suspect it will have the same touchpad issues.

Andrew

Vista = Windows "ME" (Mistake Edition) Version II!

HATE IT! HATE IT! HATE IT!

I'd go MAC before that!
And come to think of it, MAC is way better for audio/visual apps from what I hear. Hell, they were shooting a promo for Vista at circuit city and all the members of the crew doing the filming all had Mac's!

I find Mac OS actually a bit confusing. Every time I use a Mac, I get confused! Seriously. It takes me 5X longer to figure out how to do anything on a Mac vs. a PC. I guess it's just what I'm used to...

Andrew

Andrew I couldn't "hep" myself.

http://www.apple.com/getamac/ads/

FYI, I'm downloading the "Desktop CD" of Ubuntu as I write this. I finally gave up on my aging (and ailing) Windows 98 a couple of nights ago and installed Mandriva One 2008 on there instead.

(that's why I am downloading Ubuntu.....ah well. There's the learning curve....)

Common sense dictates to me *NEVER* to install Vista on either of my machines. XP running on the Laptop (SP2) is really as far as I am willing to take Windows. I'm even contemplating dumping that and running Linux on it as well.

If nothing else it's the memory footprint that kills me......especially with two computers that havce 512MB of RAM EACH! (It literally takes several minutes for XP to boot on my laptop.)

Don't get me wrong, I have seen Vista and it looks really pretty, but it seems to lack the speed and functionality that I <-- never mind, it sucks @$$ all around. ;o)

Oh yeah, the last time I used a Mac, it was in the computer lab at Evergreen High School (where the office is now) circa 2000, and it was running OS 8.somethingorother. I haven't touched Mac-OS since.

To be fair, I think Mac OS X is a nice improvement over the earlier (unreliable) versions of Mac OS. OS X is based on a flavor of the rock-solid FreeBSD, the OS I use for my webserver. Extremely reliable. I simply find the Mac OS concept not what I'm used to (for example, the menu bar at the top of the screen changes to whatever application you've focused too).

Lots of schools do use Macs although they tend to be older Macs. Portland schools teach a unit to 2-3rd graders on Portland bridges and a number of them use my website pictures in their classes, so I see the hits in my web logs (one day a class hit my website too hard and crashed my MySQL server! new server will have more RAM, LOL). Anyway, I see a lot of Mac OS browser signatures from the schools. I also used to volunteer at a school where my friend taught the 3rd grade and they had some ancient (OS 9) Macs in there, using ancient Internet Explorer for Mac. Thank goodness most users have finally migrated to Firefox!

FYI, your laptop should not have a problem booting XP with only 512MB of RAM - that's really plenty for a basic XP install, at least to boot. A friend is still using my 5-year-old Toshiba laptop with XP and it has only 512MB and it boots right up no problem. I suspect you either have too many programs loaded at startup (try msconfig to fix that) or your hard disk is hopelessly fragmented. If you open a lot of programs at the same time or use a memory-hog app like Photoshop, more RAM will definitely help.

But do report back about your Ubuntu experience. Despite my little nits about it, it's overall a great OS. Any operating system that can install on my laptop pretty much automatically (no drivers to install - try that with Windows!) certainly deserves my respect.

Andrew

Andrew I'm just the opposite when it comes to a PC. For me Mac's have been more intuitive all along. The only draw back is since I run Pro Tools I'm never totally up to date on the latest OS upgrade.

I bought an iMac for my kids for their schoolwork. I also purchased Final Cut Express 4 because our daughter who has been creating movies as part of her schoolwork projects. She used to work with iMovies and the new version on Leopard was a bit confusing to her. She had worked with Final Cut Pro last summer as part of a summer class program through Film Action Oregon.

All of her teachers are showing and re-showing her work to all the upper classmen and mentioning this was a freshman doing this kind of work.

In the fall she'll be taking a photography class and is showing a natural talent in that arena as well. Mac's give her the best advantage to sharpen her creative and technical skills. She's blowing me away with the stuff she's producing on her iMac.

So I'm bit surprise Andrew that Mac's don't feel more natural to you since they seem to be very helpful to anyone who has any inkling of creativity.

I'm an Ubuntu fan as well. It's my OS of choice on my personal computers.

Have one XP machine, purchased on deep discount, mostly for the license and a quick and dirty win32 box, for those few things it makes sense to run on.

The rest are IRIX or Linux.

Professionally, I more or less need to run win32. That's what the software I work with, runs on. Well, not totally true. It does run nicely on Linux, but very few takes right now.

I've got a Kubuntu live CD install that's just great. It runs good on most hardware and anything over 256Mb is enough to surf, write and author media. (CD / DVD data, audio)

It's fun to boot that on a corporate network, go and access my online data repositories and services and get stuff done, write it all to a USB key, then reboot the machine, leaving no trace.

Many a Microsoftie network admin has seen that and wanted that CD to play with. I give it to them and start the Linux fun with another person. Always good.

On a personal level, I think I'm hoping to do exactly what Andrew is. There is absolutely nothing I need Vista for, and that's a good thing.

I've also noted some build-out expectation setting for subscription, buy on demand, finer grained license services. There is a built in license manager now, same thing commercial Unixes did in the late 90's. Ugh, nobody is gonna like that.

For me, that's ugly. Don't mind licensed software. That's a market thing. Either the stuff is worth the license hassles, or it isn't.

(for me it mostly isn't)

It is disturbing to see licensing escalating though. I can still use any license on any machine, but it's getting very tough to do. (flexlm skills I keep up to date for a lot of reasons, the number one being moving software legally purchased to a new machine without having to pay for new licenses just because of hardware failure. Permanent needs to mean exactly that dammit)

Ditto on the 512Mb bit too. The windows defrag tool is not all that good, unless it's run very regularly. I would schedule that ASAP.

Also avoid very full file systems. NTFS breaks down considerably when the volume is over 80 percent full.

On Vista, I really hate where I think they are going, but I don't hate the actual day to day use of the OS as much as I thought I would. It's acceptable, if I'm not the one paying for it.

Still running Win98SE here on my 7-year old box. I've tried to keep it as well maintained as possible, upgraded the memory and some other components over the years. 98's days are going to be numbered as the computers running it age, more and more new devices are shipped with absolutely no 98 support at all (very few are these days anyhow), and there's only one anti-virus software available for it that I know of that's still updated (Avast).

I'm slowly and gradually trying to get a decent Linux distro up and running. Have Debian up to a command line at this point and I plan to finish as time and energy allow.

My xp is a cd borrowed from a "friend."
I have Ubuntu ordered but it takes 45 days to receive it. Microsoft wants $149 to make "my xp pro" genuine!
It's fun to play with software on this Pentium 3 Gateway. Not enough ram to run Vista.
I downloaded Ubuntu with the Windows Installer feature. It installed Ubuntu 8.04 ok, but xp was still there.

About a month ago, my old win 98 computer died, so I have been playing around a bit. IMHO, fast computers with Vista seem to be slower than they should be, so I am looking for something else.

I am tempted to try a linux install again... my first attempt was several years ago with "Red Hat"... it did not go well !

I am typing this on a very small notebook (Asus Eee) that came with some form of Linux (Xandros) installed, and it seems to work great!

The Open office applications seem to work well, and Firefox seems to operate faster than Internet explorer! I could become a Linux convert.

Might give Mac a try also.

I don't have the link handy, but there is a site that does online IQ tests. They've been logging users and their OS / Platform for quite some time.

The smartest people they have recorded run Mac OS on Power PC Mac computers. Next in line are the Linuxes and Intel Macs.

Heh.

Sadly, almost nobody runs IRIX (SGI) anymore... Great UNIX, with a trendy desktop that lead the field in the 90's. Vista has some of those elements today. (finally)

Anyway, the deal with Linux is the initial learning curve. It's sometimes a pain to get it up and running on your hardware. It's easier to get hardware that runs better to start.

That's one of the things I did initially.

Once you get past that curve, it opens up very quick! From there it's fun.

"But do report back about your Ubuntu experience. Despite my little nits about it, it's overall a great OS. Any operating system that can install on my laptop pretty much automatically (no drivers to install - try that with Windows!) certainly deserves my respect."

You guys are probably going to flame me from now until eternity!!

The good:

Well, it installed alright and it boots up.......

Installing it was no problem--I was able to get it from a live CD to a working(??-read on) installation on the hard drive in about 20 minutes.

The bad:

At the very least, let me just ask this: now that I have Ubuntu installed to the hard drive, is it already too late to dump Gnome and convert it to KDE?

(Yeah, I already know about Kubuntu--having used a Mandrake-based KDE for the last couple of years, I figured I would try Gnome instead. Mistake.)

That, and the desktop always seems to want to fall back to what I assume is the default 1600*1200*60Hz resolution. It's extremely hard to see things on it because I have an 800*600 monitor! (And going into "System-Preferences-Screen resolution" and setting it to 800*600*85Hz works, but when I restart, it's back to its default again.)

And the ugly:

Ubuntu keeps nagging me for an administrative password and an Internet connection whenever I want to install or run pretty much anything--it is definately worth mentioning that this is on my other terminal which has no internet access whatsoever. (I even pulled the modem out some time ago!) It appears to be something to do with a "content licensing" system--not gonna work for me.

Ah well.......there is the learning curve I guess. In this case said "curve" is really on a magnitude even greater than Terwilliger. ;o) I haven't really lost any of my own data wih these Linux installs/reinstalls......all I have lost is time.

So I suppose it's back to Mandrake for the time being!!

Yes, you can go back to KDE without a re-install of Kubuntu. Here's an article about installing KDE afterward:

http://www.watchingthenet.com/switch-between-gnome-and-kde-desktops-in-ubuntu-or -kubuntu.html

(you would set KDE to be the default - I suppose you could dump Gnome just to get rid of it but it might not be worth the trouble.)

As for the high res thing: I think you'll need to go into your /etc/X11/xorg.conf file and remove the higher resolutions from the file (not sure why it can't remember a default). You might wait until after moving to KDE before doing this, since KDE may no longer handle it better.

Both Ubuntu and Kubuntu try to be super-secure by requiring admin privileges to do anything that could damage your system. I know, this can be annoying; you can turn it off I believe. And I think that once you are done dinking around with your system (mostly), you won't be bothered by this much. FYI, even Mac OS asks you for your admin password now and then when you might change something important on the system.

You really would want to be online to make the most of Ubuntu/Kubuntu, though, since so many updates and patches are available only online. I'm guessing you will not be able to switch to KDE without being online to download the new packages for KDE - or without downloading/re-installing Kubuntu.

Andrew

This discussion is wayyyyy too complicated for a nimnul like me.
I'm still using a 7 year old Dell with the standard 512 ram and 75 gigs of hard drive. I've heard nothing good about Vista so I'm just thinking of jumping to a MAC. I do run a simple version of Audacity for recording and sending files and I've heard it doesn't do well with Vista. MAC or new Dell with Vista?
Whaddya think?
Gracias!

Why not a new Dell with XP? (Better hurry, though - MS claims they will stop allowing XP to be sold on retail systems after sometime in June.)

Try Dell Small Business to get computers with XP installed. Less bloatware, too!

Andrew

Been working with Macs since 1994 exclusively. Even with the huge learning curve that is Pro Tools, Macs have proven themselves to me over and over again. It's probably why we own 5 of them.

This could either be the smartest move I may ever made or the embarrasingly dumbest I have made within at least the past half-hour--I am downloading a copy of the largely Debian- and Knoppix-based (yet I have noticed, rarely mentioned in conversation) Musix Linux distribution.

See, what I was after originally is an OS that can handle software designed for audio processing and playback--the same stuff I was doing in 98, just on a more reliable (and modern) platform.

So, I guess we'll see. Should be interesting................

The last really great OS Microsoft developed was DOS.

Having punched cards and programmed in Fortran IV, I thought DOS was the coolest thing since sliced bread.

Windows continues to be a trap, promulgated by big business who invested in it to preserve their data sets built in DOS versions of dBase, etc. I have worked in every Windows OS except Vista, and I hope I never have to deal with its foibles. Windows NT was a major step forward, and I still use Windows 2000 Professional on my

Mac. Yes indeed, I have been using Macs since 1990. In a fair comparison test, pick any year you want and wherever Windows was at that point, Mac was 3 to 5 years ahead. In the instant condition, Leopard (Mac OS 10.5.x) is receiving the nod from such widely read industry rags as PC Magazine, PC World, and Infoworld. It's a no brainer and I will tell you all why: Mac OS's run on hardware bolted together by Apple, who specifies which chips, which BIOS, etc. etc. There has never been a PC from Dell, HP/Compaq, Acer, Toshiba, etc. etc. that runs as rock solid as a Mac since Apple and Microsoft gave up their bid to redevelop the architecture of an operating system and went to Unix kernel underpinnings. Therein lies one of the drawbacks of every flavor of LInux out there, it's just an open source version of another system that runs over a Unix kernel. (A kernel is the lowest level abstraction layer that manages all the computers resources). The drawback of all these open source LInux systems is that they are not easily brought up to speed by anyone that is not familiar with a lot more of the BULLSHIT (drivers, patches, etc.) that both Windows and Macs address transparently and mostly automatically. Novices and don't want to knowbies should steer clear of Linux variants unless they have a deep seated desire for self frustration.

Video and audio: Mac wins hands down. It's no longer even a contest. It never really was, although the press kept it a game a lot longer than it really was one. Graphics as well. The reason for those of you that don't know is that Mac was always object oriented. The entire Windows world was developed over a text based model. Sure, things have changed in the Windows world, but if you have ever wrestled trying to open up old windows documents in a later version of some application, you know what I'm talking about.

Customer service: Apple keeps winning the awards. For people that like to have a voice to sound out their issues with, they are second to no one.

Applications: It used to be the common b.s. line was "there aren't enough apps for the Mac." Nowadays, that just doesn't hold water unless you need to use some rare high end piece of software. Besides you can always

Run Windows on a Mac. There are multiple ways to do it, and in fact Infoworld reported that Macs now run Windows faster than PC's do. You can boot a Mac into windows, or like I chose to do, run a virtual machine program and run Windows and Mac OS X at the same time. Drag and drop right across. Sweet. I could run Linux, Dos, several versions of Windows, Mac OS X all at the same time (OK OK I would need some more RAM for that).

So the computer "experts" can argue all they want, if you are looking for the best bang for the buck, if you want to play with your digital photos, DV movies, build databases, run Quicken, manage your ripped music, not spend a million years trying to get your Windows plug and pray promise to come through on that new printer you just bought, or would rather just spend your computer time playing and being productive instead of configuring, rebooting, reconfiguring, rebooting, etc. etc.
go get a Mac.

Vista? It's a space Hog from what I read. XP Pro needed only 5 Gb, not 15 like Vista. Not to mention all the hardware that just won't work with it.

Linux? Great step in the right direction, but still not ready for the mass market. Great way to save money if you have a lot of time to navigate the learning curve. You can't buy a system ready to go, you have to spend a lot of time getting it up and going the way you want it.

Then again, if you don't mind having to learn how to work like the OS thinks, go right ahead and buy Vista. If you would prefer to have an OS that works like YOU think, there is only one solution. Mac.

Sorry for the length of this post, but I sometimes think that these kinds of threads tend to get away from the fact that the business world bought into Microsoft DOS years ago, but the consumer base consists of people that want to have fun and a learning experience and not get bogged down in all the techie crap you have to deal with in Windows to get it to run in any manner that is not the default, confusing mode you get out of the box.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t-7FUYO83Ts

Unknown XP Tip.

Did you know that most OEM computers that have XP installed from the factory utilize an OEM code to activate them. This means that the 25 digit code on the sticker may still be used for activation on another box. However, should that OEM machine crash and you re-install, it will have to be activated and you cannot use it twice. A ghost image of the machine under OEM activation is a good thing to have. To check this right click on My Computer and go to properties. You should see "OEM" in the license string.

I bet Vista is the same.

Andy, I know a lot of people love their Macs, but as I've said - and I know I'm not alone in this - I find Mac OS counter-intuitive and have no desire to switch to it. I guess I wish to dispel the myth that everyone loves Macs. I don't - and I have spent time using them. If you like them, be my guest.

And you can certainly buy Linux machines that are fully ready to use. The problems I mentioned above with Ubuntu were all laptop-related; on a Desktop, Ubuntu is solid and extremely usable. No "learning curve" is required to click the Firefox icon or select Open Office from the drop-down menus. And that is all 75% of computer users need.

I recently loaned two old Dell computers to one of the local Portland candidates for their campaign office for the May primary. The computers were used by the campaign volunteers. I put Ubuntu on them (very easy - much easier than Windows to install) and they used them with absolutely no problems. The only calls I got came when people forgot the password to login. If you are doing email with Gmail or Yahoo email, watching Youtube videos, or doing office documents, Ubuntu works great. It has a few shortcomings for laptops but I believe those will be ironed out shortly if not already.

Andrew

"I find Mac OS counter-intuitive"

That's an utterly ridiculous statement, Andrew. Clearly, you were born into an already Windows dominant world and what you call "intuitive" is not about intuition at all, rather, it is about the wholesale fleecing of computer culture that has bullied the computer consuming culture to think like Windows operates. That, Andrew, is not "intuitive." It's more about how Microsoft brainwashed the user base to accept abort, cancel, retry as machine logic. Had you been, like myself, born into a world with no computers except Univac and had gone through the command line world of Fortran which gave way to C which opened up the world of modern operating systems, you might have a different understanding of what intuition in the land of machines really is.
That is not to say that many of todays consumers aren't like you, but "counter-intuitive" is not the right terminology. If anything, Macs are user friendlier than anything out there, although I will be the first to admit there isn't a perfect solution for all folks.

I know you're a big fan of open source but it's been around long enough to be compared to Win and Mac, and if the reasons I gave are not the ones, you tell us all why it just hasn't caught on in the big picture.

The relevant facts are that Mac acceptance just keeps growing. That's not opinion. Those that like you "don't" like Macs is a small percentage when compared to the total base of folks that love them or in converse, those that HATE Windows.

No, Andrew, computing is no longer just browsing the internet and word processing. It's about digital media management, editing and sharing. You're way off base claiming that it is 75% of users needs. It's not just about watching Youtube videos, it's about making them.

It's no fluke that the world of science, the media industry, and higher education have over 50% penetration of Macs. Unlike Microsoft, which gave schools computers for free just to get into the educational arena, Apple has been the choice of school boards and college IS buyers for years. Not only that, but Apple is the one that championed or developed much of the technology found in all computing at the desktop level like the GUI, mice, CD drives, iPod, iTunes, etc.

http://www.economist.com/opinion/displaystory.cfm?story_id=9302662

So compute as you like, but Apple is the king of innovation.
I have been dealing with information machinery since 1969.
I have spent a lot of time (and money) experimenting, studying and learning. I am not a Mac evangelist, I get nothing from them I don't pay for. Having learned to edit audio with a razor blade and a splicing block, I am keenly aware of what you refer to as "intuitive" changes over time. Application developers know the market probably better than any of us. People that learn these applications can generally be productive in either Win or Mac platforms, and when they develop these same apps for Linux perhaps the landscape will shift, but if it does it will result in LInux based systems robbing from Windows, not from the Mac. Few Mac users go back to Windows or venture into the Linux world. There just is no reason to. For the average joe that is wholly frustrated by Microsoft, there is no better choice than Apple.

Andy, I merely gave you my observation that I find Mac OS unintuitive. I'm sorry, that's how I feel. I'm not saying you should feel that way too - only that not EVERYONE feels as you do. You can't argue your way past my own personal experience. And I've had others tell me the same thing. Not everyone is in love with Apple. If you are, good for you. I'm not interested in changing your mind. You certainly won't change mine.

Why hasn't Linux caught on for the Desktop? Because there is no multi-billion dollar marketing arm or development arm behind it. The fact that it has come this far and is this good without that is truly remarkable. And people in other countries - especially in developing countries where people can barely afford a computer let alone a Windows license - are using Linux more than we do in the US.

I stand by my statement that many people need only the basics from a computer - email, web browsing, and office documents. And I never said Linux can't do only those things, only that in Ubuntu, those things are extremely easy now. Name anything you like to do in Windows or Mac and it can be done on Ubuntu, perhaps very very well, perhaps with a bit more effort required than in Windows or Mac. You can certainly create and produce videos for YouTube with Linux for example.

When's the last time you bothered to check out a copy of a recent Linux desktop distro like Ubuntu? Do you think it's all still command-line driven?

Andrew

I'm a basic user for the most part and use Dell computer's both at home and at work. Basic user meaning email, internet, word and powerpoint documents. And I can say that when I've had to use a Mac, I was not impressed. And for all the complaining about Microsoft, I've never had any problems with their products. I understand that high users may like them, but this regular joe also found Macs to be counter-intuitive.

Andy you have made my Christmas card list for this year.

I can truly understand where Andrew is coming from. I do have several friends who "believe the lie" or stay with "the dark side" when it comes to their PC. I'm fine with that. (being facetious)

We bought an iMac for our kids a few months ago. I also purchased Final Cut Express 4 specifically for our high school daughter who has really taken to making DVD presentations for her major school projects. She has an interest in film documentaries and worked last summer with Film Action Oregon, which used Final Cut Pro.

Our daughter is now showing interest in photography and will take a photography class in the fall. All these creative pursuits are being manifested with Macs.

She's been making DVDs using iMovies for several years and really stepped it up with Final Cut Express.

Again I believe if you have any kind of creative bent in your brain, Macs will prove themselves superior in performance and ease of use.

Excuse me while I call Steve Jobs to get Andy remunerated.

What I'd like to know is: what is it about owning a Mac that seems to make people so hostile to any sort of challenge? I see it here on this thread: Chris for example (even if you were being facetious) saying people "believe the lie" and Andy apparently upset that anyone would challenge his preference for Macs?

Why not accept that some people who have used Macs still prefer PCs? And why not accept that without the need to diminish the people who claim such preferences?

Believe it or not, a study done by Mindset Media claims that Mac users are “self centred, arrogant, conceited”. Check this out:

http://www.neowin.net/news/main/08/02/18/are-mac-users-snobs-the-street-thinks-s o

Food for thought.

Andrew

Thank you all for the pro's and con's of both systems.
This old XP thing is still working ok but I'm convinced that I'll jump to a MAC when smoke starts coming out of the cpu. I saw a version of a MAC system in Cupertino not long ago. The entire system is in the flat screen. No separate cpu. Pretty cool. The sound system attached to it was also pretty darned incredible.

"Excuse me while I call Steve Jobs to get Andy remunerated."

Just tell him to build a campus here in Portland and hire me.

"When's the last time you bothered to check out a copy of a recent Linux desktop distro like Ubuntu? Do you think it's all still command-line driven? "

Now you're so flustered as to take what I wrote out of context.
Had Apple not championed the GUI, all the Linux variants would still be command line driven but I never said that. I made a reference to history of OS's. Also, you are the one that has referred to "dropping menus" as easy. Thank Apple for that. You are the one trying to compare the ease of the Linux interface when in fact, Apple championed GUI's and made that the standard. If we are trying to discuss ease of use, ease of installation, ease of peripheral integration and setup, and overall ease of learning curve you'd be hard pressed to prove anyone or anything out there beats Apple.

Unlike you, Andrew, I have not attacked Linux as you have the Apple OS. The truth is that LInux has many drawbacks. Most notably is the inverse of your statement of how there is no big marketing machine promoting it. Specifically, because Linux isn't under the stranglehold of a single company, a wide diversity between Linux offerings is available in the various distributions. Unfortunately, this diversity can pose a problem of incompatibility between Linux distributions, with respect to interfaces and system libraries. Linux is splintered, just like it's father Unix. People report plenty of issues with the release of every OS, but with Linux the google results of each variant's problems is astronomical in numbers. It is not for the average user, period. Also, I am not saying you should change your mind, rather that you are in a distinct minority and it's not just because of marketing, it's a lot about ease of installation and usage and applications, clearly a weakness in LInux variants along with fragmentation, encryption keys and filesystem recovery. You can whistle all you want, Linux is still not a recommended option for people that want to buy a machine and be up and operational smoothly. You definitely get what you pay for, and relying on freeware and shareware applications is just counterproductive in almost every instance.

"And I can say that when I've had to use a Mac, I was not impressed. And for all the complaining about Microsoft, I've never had any problems with their products."

If you've never had a problem with Microsoft products, then you are in a group that is smaller than those like Andrew that think Mac is counter intuitive. I am not even going to bother addressing the failure of Microsoft to create products that are fully developed before releasing them. I'll bet you're workshop in the basement is all organized and neat, ergo, if you've not encountered problems with Microsoft's programs you aren't using them to any depth. Not to mention Microsoft's notoriety for changing the user interface from version to version and making older documents incompatible, or bloating the installation with a million things you don't need and can't prevent from installing.



The desktop computer world is now about 30 years old. If you make a list of all the major innovations and techniques that have become mainstream, you can trace the lion's share of them to Apple. Period. I mean, Windows itself was a direct cloning of the Mac. The Mac was not Apple's first computer, but it was their big gamble that put them on the map. Had Linux not brought itself into the windowed environment, it wouldn't have made it this far. Although Linux has a bright future, it will always be dogged by a lack of synergy because of its open source pinnings.

Personally, I couldn't care less about what choices other folks I don't know well make about computers. However, I have been around the block with Windows and have played with other folks LInux boxes as well as been there before we even had so many choices. No one has to agree but the facts are pretty clear, when faced with the choice of spending time in an application in order to get some IS task done, there is no OS that works quite as smoothly as a Mac. If someone hated Windows and went Linux to get away, fine, that doesn't speak to the core issues and shortcomings of Linux compared to Mac, which a few of you are trying to make a case for but IMHO have not made a convincing argument.

"Believe it or not, a study done by Mindset Media claims that Mac users are “self centred, arrogant, conceited”.

Now you are so frustrated with the truth about Linux you're grasping at straws. You're attacking users for making a wise choice. This is like quoting a single poll from a small city in nowhere about the election. Anyone that knows me well would tell you that among my faults neither conceit, arrogance nor self centered appear. In fact, they would tell you that I am humble, modest, and not the least bit self serving. If I was any of the things you indirectly attributed to me I wouldn't spend this time today putting my opinions and sharing facts into this thread. You on the other hand seem to think this is some kind of personal argument you have to win. Good luck. There is no indication that a single variant of Linux is even a distant competitor for a major desktop OS penetration into the market now or ever. As you said yourself, today's multimedia applications are more effort to set up and operate, and that's important for the kids who care less about spreadsheets and databases and more about music and pictures and videos. Apple keeps ahead of the others not because it is the most prevalent, but it is clearly the best and easiest platform to use.

"Why not accept that some people who have used Macs still prefer PCs? And why not accept that without the need to diminish the people who claim such preferences? "

I am not attacking people, like you have been doing. I am attacking the weaknesses in Windows and LInux, yet you are the one trying to morph it into a people argument. Not true.
The threadjack is your hostility to anyone showing the truth about that which you prefer. Nowhere have I inferred people that like PC's and Windows are diminished. It's the OS they chose that's diminished. You keep wanting to make this into a personal attack thread, and I'm not buying into it. The facts speak for themselves and if I present a fact that's untrue, challenge IT, not those whom think like I do. You try and revise my information to suit this tact, but it's not going to work. The weaknesses in LInux are documented by the very community that has endeared it, and if I point that out, you can't shoot me as the messenger to gain points. As I said before, compute as you wish. But if we are talking about user friendly software, you are never going to be able to rank a variant of Linux as high as a well coordinated operating system from a single manufacturer. It's just not valid to think that open source can be as sophisticated and smooth as a product that is developed by coordinated teams of engineers without individual agendas, which is exactly the opposite of what the open source community boils down to. Linux has it's place, it's just not a good choice for the lions shares of consumers. Don't take it personal, which you apparently are doing.

"if you've not encountered problems with Microsoft's programs you aren't using them to any depth."

Correct. And I'll bet the majority of users out there in the universe are just like me: Basic users of email, internet, downloading music, storing digital pictures, using Word, Excel, and Powerpoint.

"And I'll bet the majority of users out there in the universe are just like me:"

Incorrect. Maybe a decade ago that was true, but it isn't anymore.
That average user is now more concerned about multimedia on the internet, a point I mentioned earlier. Todays young adults have changed the equation you are trying to establish. The decline of traditional media was just beginning a decade ago. MP3 players were just getting started. Digital video cameras were not yet in the reach of the consumer niche. A DVD burner cost $34,000.
A lot has changed in the last decade. It's not that word processing and spreadsheets have declined, rather it's that a whole world of multimedia applications has evolved. A common misconception is that text based applications are a dominant driving force in today's computer purchase manifest, but the research says otherwise. Look at the ads by Dell, HP, Apple, etc. They aren't about the things you claim are the mainstream demands. Those applications are a given, sure, but the driving force is about portable music players, mobile phones, digital cameras and the ease of syncing them with your computer.

Andy, I call bullshit. I have hundreds of friends and co-workers who are computer users, and they are just like me. For most people, their multi-media use consists of downloading music, using Itunes, watching videos, and storing digital photos. In fact, most have less computer knowledge than I, and I can tell you that you, Andrew, KSKD, etc are heads and shoulders above the average user out there. The only ones I know going on and on about the differences between Linux, Apple, etc, are the heavy duty users (and computer snobs), which BY DEFAULT, are a minority in the world of computer users. Ask a 100 people in the general public what Linux is and I'll bet less than 5 will tell you the correct answer.

Vita- you make a good point. I do work in a field that is filled with folks who use the high-end software (Both Mac and PC users). However Macs are certainly preferred over PCs when using Pro Tools and any other audio oriented software. Not to say that other software isn't good using PC's. It's all in the application and what you're comfortable with. PT's is a heavy learning curve but worth it. Other software would do that same thing for voice tracking and commercial production.

I'm not going to go out and say a Mac is what you need. You know what you're comfortable with and I say stick with it. But I still say Macs are a much better system overall and I am deeply biased.

Besides it's all Bush's fault anyway. (Sorry couldn't resist)

To make a point: I work in the financial field and EVERYONE I work with swears by the HP 12c calculator.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HP-12C

This calculator computes everything someone in my business could possibly need to calculate. But, it works drastically different from your average calculator, and if you picked it up and attempted to do a simple calculation like 10 x 3 =, you would not be able to get it to work. It's the most unintuitive calculator on earth. Of course, someone like me would tell you that you guys are nuts if you don't use this calculator and that you're missing out on the best applications available for calculators. To the average person that just needs to do the 10 x 3 =, it's overkill and unnecessary.

So, Vitalogy, explain to me why Apple's market share is rising and everyone elses is falling. It's because what you call bullshit is not bullshit at all. Your hundreds of friends and their Reverse Polish Notation HP calculators are dwarfed by the kids and young adults going out for their first computer and choosing Macs. Sorry to rock your boat, but facts are facts.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/apple-earnings-get-big-lift/story.aspx?gui d={6DB44455-BFB1-4189-B35D-00961DD0FE83}&dist=msr_1

http://www.appleinsider.com/articles/07/10/17/apples_u_s_mac_market_share_rises_ to_8_1_percent_in_q3.html

And the pundits agree:

http://blog.wired.com/business/2008/01/gartner-says-ma.html

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/08_19/b4083036428429.htm

Andy, there's no need to be hostile or a condescending dickhead. Personally, I don't have an allegiance either way, other than I use a PC at work and at home, and it works great for what I need. I've considered getting a Mac but can't find a reason why I should pay twice as much for the tasks I need it to do. I don't see a benefit. A majority of other PC users don't' either. I know that I'm the mainstream of average computer users out there. Obviously, you're not. Neither are a lot of people here. People that go ape shit over Macs are niche users, because Apple fills that niche and they must do a good job.

I wasn't the least bit hostile. If anyone is acting like a dickhead, it's you. Your opening post claimed you weren't impressed with Macs. It's understandable that such a limited scope user as yourself would not care to switch and go through the brief learning curve is totally understandable, and I have made that point previously. But the facts remain, Macs ARE impressive in what they can do and the ease of use and reliability. There is nothing condescending about pointing out inaccurate statements, you do it all the time to the right wingers (and appropriately so I might add). The sales figures and such are there to prove my point about trends in the industry, so don't shoot me I'm just the messenger. If it's a message that is a hot button for you, that's not my doing.

"pay twice as much for the tasks I need "

That's another inaccuracy. Macs are price competitive for what you get. If you have a lot invested in specific applications you use, that's understandable. Having to cross platform upgrade would add to the price of the final package, but the Machine and OS and supplied apps on a Mac handle most of the tasks of the ordinary user. You can't get a Mac system for much less than $800 bucks, but it is a better system than what you can get for the same money in a clone/Windows system. Don't keep feeding us old school rhetoric, instead go to apple.com and look at the prices. Unless you are looking to go with the absolute least expensive clone, there is a Mac to compete at every price point.

You've been a tad hostile and condesending...

I don't think I've posted an inaccurate statement on this thread. I've provided my opinion, same as you. Some people are impressed with Mac's, other's aren't. I happen to be one that's not impressed with Mac's. There's nothing inaccurate about that.

This is about your claim that most internet users are like you. That is simply not accurate. They no longer are. It might have been that way ten years ago, but it isn't that way anymore. Sorry to the others reading along, but I said that before and you overreacted by callling it bullshit. So again, who is it that's hostile? Sounds like you, not me. Scroll up and read it all again. I did.

Andy, you seem like smart guy and all, but consider this: You are arguing with me that I am not the same as other PC users, yet you don't even know me! How dumb is that? How can you tell me I'm not like the mainstream of average PC users? You have no real evidence one way or the other. So when you tell me that I'm incorrect in my statement, I called bullshit because you're not in a position to gauge any inaccuracy in my assessment of whether I'm like other average users.

Yeeeeees....Fight among your selves.....Goooood... Feel the power of the dark side..

"You are arguing with me that I am not the same as other PC users, yet you don't even know me! How dumb is that?"

You said it yourself, dumbass. All I have done is address the inaccuracies in your posts, and I quote:

"I'm a basic user for the most part and use Dell computer's both at home and at work. Basic user meaning email, internet, word and powerpoint documents. And I can say that when I've had to use a Mac, I was not impressed. And for all the complaining about Microsoft, I've never had any problems with their products. I understand that high users may like them, but this regular joe also found Macs to be counter-intuitive."

"Correct. And I'll bet the majority of users out there in the universe are just like me: Basic users of email, internet, downloading music, storing digital pictures, using Word, Excel, and Powerpoint."

You clearly do not like to be corrected. You also claim I have no evidence, but the evidence is right there in your own post. So I do know who you claim to be and I also know that the average computer buyer no longer fits your profile.

I know you always like to have the last word, so go ahead, knock yourself out.

Hey, this is just like Religion and Politics.

Ain't this fun?

Andy, you've made some solid points. Kudos.

I personally see the Mac filling niches, one by one until it's got a solid, but alternative share.

If it fills too many, it ceases to be the niche machine and becomes general purpose, like the PC is. Apple won't do that as their bottom line margin is more important than gross share is.

Economically, this supports the idea that most ordinary people will continue to use PC's for cost reasons alone.

Besides, real MEN use IRIX :P

Andy, I don't need to be corrected. The average computer user in the US does not need a Mac. A PC does just fine. I'm sorry that you're a computer snob and obviously are blind to the typical computer user in the US.

And, when I did a bit of shopping for a new computer (that I decided I didn't need) Macs were about twice the cost of a PC with the same features I need. So, like KSKD said, Macs fill a niche, but that's all they'll ever be, a niche. And like any niche out there, there are the rabid supporters who exhibit cult like behavior when confronted with someone who thinks differently.

Andy, at first I found your whole response to me baffling, since I never criticized the Mac at all. All I did was express my experience that I find Mac OS unintuitive. I did not really expect to be attacked for making such a personal observation and not a general statement about Macs. I made no statement about Macs being better or worse than PCs.

Your responses to me here are dripping with condescension and arrogance - and if you were trying to prove the point of the Mindset Media study, you succeeded brilliantly. Why the sensitivity to my personal observation about Macs? Why couldn't you simply say you find your Mac very intuitive and respect but disagree with my opinion and leave it at that? Why are you so defensive about Macs? If they are so obviously great, why do they require such a hostile defense?

As for Linux, I never claimed it was perfect. You seem to have missed that in initially describing Ubuntu Linux I expressed how disappointed I was with the latest release. But you seem intent to interpret and twist my words and take things way out of proportion. I don't know why you are so hostile toward Linux, but to be honest, you do not seem to have had much recent experience with it. The fact that I can install the latest Ubuntu Linux on my laptop and not require a single driver or intervention - from FREE software - is absolutely amazing to me. All I had to do is click the mouse a few times. I'm not sure why you feel the need to denigrate such an achievement - the work of thousands of (largely) volunteers or hobbyists - but I have great awe and respect for this work, and I think it's philosophically and spiritually good.

I'm sorry that I can't continue this conversation with you in the tone and manner you have chosen - I really don't see a point.

Andrew

Actually, like Vitalogy you jumped on me first, Andrew. My first post was general in nature, stating my opinions which apparently you felt the need to clarify some of my statements. In my first post I wrote: "Linux? Great step in the right direction, but still not ready for the mass market. Great way to save money if you have a lot of time to navigate the learning curve. You can't buy a system ready to go, you have to spend a lot of time getting it up and going the way you want it. " You felt the need to correct the fact that there are systems with Linux installed for sale, however that doesn't necessarily meet the bar of "ready to go" in my opinion. So, again, you jumped on me and now you can't stand the heat. Condescending? Bullfucking shit. You just don't like to be criticized, same with Vit. Arrogance? Hardly. I made a post expressing my input on the subject and you had to pick at it and when I picked back you get all huffy. Baseless claims like you make carry no weight. You can accuse me all you want, but you are the aggressor and if you can't deal with escalating feedback, don't start in. Meanwhile, for all your whining, others have seen my points and thanked me for them.
Move on.

http://blogs.zdnet.com/hardware/?p=420

Bummer, it's going bad. I like this discussion.

It's not possible to be both a general purpose technology and one that excels at niches. Apple knows this and, very wisely I might add, has chosen to take the niche approach.

This has some seriously good benefits to their bottom line. Apple makes a LOT of money, producing well engineered computers that run well engineered software.

This isn't for everybody. Never will be.

I've been in the industry for a lot of years. (Since about 88 actually)

The power of good enough is strong. It trumps the best engineering every time. Dollars talk and the finest walks, for the majority of consumers.

There is a technology curve that goes something like this:

-early adopters

These people pay for the latest and greatest at nearly any price. They often form, or have discovered niches long before the masses do.

Apple caters to these people big time. IMHO, that's going to keep their share healthy as these people, having had a good experience, will continue to follow Apple on it's aggressive innovation curve.

Make no mistake, this is the Apple bread and butter. Serving this crowd, and the next one to a high degree, is where all the margins are at, and businesses that maintain good margins, no matter what their real market share, do well.

The next group is the early majority. These people are more price sensitive, but still are risk takers and will pay for technology that delivers a good return.

(this is my current niche, BTW. I work with early adopters, break even, then get solid margins from the early majority. It's a tough gig, but somebody has to do it!)

Apple does very well with this group too. In the arena of person to person consumer marketing, there are talkers and receivers, followers and leaders. The early adopters provide the story line, the talkers talk, and Apple comes off as "trendy".

Margins are a bit lower, but still very profitable.

The majority is nearly always about cost. This is also the peak of a given technology release. The power of good enough rules supreme here. The story is out there, trends set, and it's all about just getting it done, cheap ass, if possible.

Ever wonder why Apple continues to release great products every few years? This is why.

Margins are as thin as everybody can tolerate. It's all about volume, and serving the need, without the extras for the majority of the majority.

When a given Apple product hits this stage, it's discontinued, thus preserving rarity, and also prevents deep discounting from devaluing their products.

Most Apple users miss this key element in the discussion.

Then the late adopters follow. In terms of size, they are nearly as many as the majority are, but they are conservative as well. Last to follow trends, and the most cost sensitive of everybody.

One of the differentiators between the majority and the late majority is that the majority is often willing to entertain add-ons to complete their solutions. Sometimes, they will pay a premium to serve their niche, if it means they can leverage existing investments.

This is why there is so much crap for PC's, and not Apple.

Again, we see the dichotomy between serving a niche very well and being general purpose. Add-ons detract from the Apple focus. The constant releases make it difficult to produce general purpose add-ons as well.

All of this impacts margins, so Apple add-ons tend to follow the same core ideology as the Apple products to. Selection in this space is brutal. If the add-ons don't exhibit that same design and trendy nature, they are not selected.

For the PC, anything and everything is an option and this makes selection far less brutal. Everybody plays here because the audience, being the majority and the late majority, is huge and fairly constant.

The long life cycle of the PC means that volume makes sense, meaning lower margins can be tolerated overall.

The late majority will not pay for anything they have to, and tend to leverage any investment they do make to the absolute limit.

(this is how I treat cars, BTW Nobody is making any margin on me --ever)

To say that Apple is "better" is really very subjective.

Now, let's talk usability.

There are various factors:

Discoverability, efficiency, clarity, familiarity, productivity, consistency.

It's completely possible to make a very productive, easy to use, efficient and clear user interface that's not very discoverable because of a given persons familarity.

Ask the designers of the Edsel about that little puzzle.

The result of this dynamic is that there is no absolute standard for what is the best interface and what is not. All we can do is run the metrics, know where we are on the various factors and hope to not clutter the thing up through feature creep and attempts to leverage too many different kinds of familarity.

If any of you sat down on my IRIX machine, I suspect there would be some trouble, particularly those not familiar with UNIX and a real X window system.

Getting past that, it's damn sweet!

But, that's a big enough problem that it generally wouldn't be selected, so it's an extreme niche these days, despite all of it's pros.

For any given person, these kinds of things are true, regardless of their overall intelligence and computer acumen.

And that's where we have ignition between Apple, Linux and Microsoft fans.

Having some exposure to a very diverse set of interfaces does help this some as it seriously helps discoverability, which most people equate to being "intuitive".

The very vast majority of people don't have this experience, and thus the win32 interface continues to enjoy a discoverability advantage over most others, even though it's probably lower on a studied metric!

This also plagues Linux to a high degree as well.

It's enough of a barrier, that serious cost advantages will often trump it.

I completely agree with Andrew about the growing body of Open Code. It's an amazing work really. Most all your basic computing needs are only some reasonable hardware, of nearly any type, and a net connection away!

This is so empowering I can't even describe.

What is isn't is familiar, and that raises the barrier to entry to levels that bar all but some members of the late majority, willing to endure for cost reasons, and members of the early adopter and early majority crowd.

Ever wonder why Microsoft is always making subtle changes to their Interface?

It isn't because others are better. The power of good enough trumps all here.

It's so that others cannot compete so easily. That's it.

They do this for the same reasons Apple continues to build very interesting hardware / software combinations.

001 1000
111 1111

Mo-too funny.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binary_numeral_system

Yep. There are only 10 kinds of people in this world.

The smart ones, and all the other ones!

My new club is called "The Other Ones." Hi , I'm the president of this club.

001 1000 = CAN
111 1111 = DLE

(See also: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ASCII.)

I had originally posted something above but after deciding it was too asinine to let stand, I redirected it to dev/null........so I tried using control characters to symbolise it.

The joke I heard was:

There are only 10 kinds of people in the world - those that know binary, and those that don't.

See if you can figure this one out:

002 135 040 124 110 105 122 105 047 123 040 116 117 040 120 114 101 103 105 040 114 111 113 105 040 061 062 067 056 060 056 060 056 061 041 003

(Hint: use codepage 437 in octal base!! ;o)

Edit add~
Edsel-
*laughs*

I said:

"Might give Mac a try also"

Ok, I am doing that right now, I am typing on a brand new MacBook... I have been away from Macs too long (my last Mac was a "color classic" from 1994). My wife still uses it to play "Solitaire Royale", a game that dates from 1987 (Mac Plus days). So far things are going well, and to me the Mac feels very quick and natural, and for the most part, stuff just works!

However, I seem to have run into a problem receiving streaming audio. The KBPS website tells me to install an add-on "flip4mac" that should allow QuickTime or iTunes to play the stream... can't seem to make it work on OSX 10.5.2. Any ideas Mac folks?

Jr_Tech

You might need a software update. Go to the apple menu and locate "Software Update." It should give you the latest updates including Quicktime.

Flip 4 Mac free version is downloadable at Microsoft.

Well there's that too.

http://www.microsoft.com/downloads/details.aspx?FamilyId=915D874D-D747-4180-A400 -5F06B1B5E559&displaylang=en

With this plug in you will be able to view anything anyone encoded with Windows Media codecs

Thanks guys... flip4mac works fine! I somehow messed up the first install. After a 10 year "Mac Gap", I need to do some catching up.

Why Macs still aren't right for most businesses:

Our tech guru ordered up an iMac and ran his firm on it for several months. His take: Apple is flashy, but still more trouble than it's worth for basic computing tasks.

http://money.cnn.com/2008/05/29/smallbusiness/macs_small_biz.fsb/index.htm?postv ersion=2008053009

Here's a bunch of opinions to the contrary, from non Apple sources.

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2003226770_ptmacc26.htm l

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2279376,00.asp

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2207556,00.asp

http://computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleId=90 87318&intsrc=hm_list

http://www.macobserver.com/article/2008/02/18.6.shtml

excerpts from above links about Leopard Mac OS 10.5.x :

"best operating system ever written for the vast majority of consumers"

"Leopard won the installation, interface, bundled software and security categories. Ubuntu Linux won on price. Windows XP won the third party software, drivers, and networking categories. Vista didn't win in any of the categories."

"Leopard is the most polished and easiest to use OS I've tested. "

"To me, of course, the most compelling argument for taking a Mac to school is the enormous headache you'll avoid by not having to worry about viruses or spyware. This Windows plague is still not an issue under Mac OS X, a point that I think many virus-weary Windows users have a hard time believing. "

I got so exasperated with Vista home pro something or other. I yanked it out and went back to XP. Why? Too many extra clicks to get to things, longer network access times, Windows Explorer strangely losing file view settings periodically, etc... As reviewer Jerry Pournelle said recently of Microsoft's infinite numbers of Vista variations, "...it's a result of the Microsoft marketing department gone wild" {not exact quote, but the gist of it}.

Apple. Gorgeous, clever looking hardware/software. New Air and pro laptops enable touch commands similar to the iPhone. Where's the right mouse button, tho?

The new Ubuntu/Kubuntu linux operating systems install easily and look beautiful. You can boot off the CD, try & use before deciding to install. They'll even send you a CD for free! I like their attitude. You can't beat the price.

"Where's the right mouse button, tho? "

Place two fingers on the track pad and then click the track pad bar.

(This option must be selected in Trackpad Preferences)

Is the two finger thing a Mac exclusive? I really like the two finger scrolling through pages on this MacBook. This is the first notebook computer that has not sent me RUNNING to get a USB or Bluetooth mouse asap.

It's way easy to use the new trackpad enhancements when I'm out and about with the MacBook Pro, but at home I still use a mouse, currently a wireless Logitech.

Apparently, much to the chagrin of the Mac haters, the Apple hardware has made significant inroads into enterprise computing.

http://www.computerworld.com/action/article.do?command=viewArticleBasic&articleI d=9103958&intsrc=hm_list

I've got Ubuntu running off CD on a laptop for the kids surfing. It's basically a safe terminal. They can move pictures around, get music onto portable players and use the Internet, for the most part.

When done, just turn it off, no worries.

With some tweaks, a live CD / read only USB key OS install has some serious advantages!

Andy, I like Apple stuff. Always have. It's generally worth the price premium.

From my experience, casual salesy user types are all over Vista and the eye candy that comes with it.

Most serious users are less than pleased.

I'm in that lot, and will use XP / IRIX / Linux for quite some time to come.

One eye opener happened earlier this month. One of our higher ups in the company took some online test and the server failed to record it. He took it again, and wanted to capture the screen to preserve the record.

No can do in Vista. DRM bites and bites hard. No screen capture utility would work, until that screen was gone!

That test got taken on an XP box, with screen capture. I didn't have to say a word!

DOS had print screen.

Mac OS always had command-shift-4 screen capture which now gives you the ability to draw a box on screen and capture an area.

Windows OS has never built this in. I asked a software developer far more versed in Windows than I ever want to be and he gave me a familiar answer. Macs are object programmed, Windows ain't.

I'd love to play with a SUN workstation, but that ain't happening any time soon. My UNIX is rusty, and I remember when I started using DOS I probably left some of my syntax and commands that I knew in UNIX in the out box. Back when Mac got started and Windows 1.0 came out, it was clear that Apple knew what they were doing and Microsoft was out of its turf. The cool thing about OS X is the Terminal function lets you go right down to the belly of the BSD beast. Not recommended for beginners, but if you want it, it's there. Whereas command line computing is very powerful, in the present era of rich media and 25 years of GUI development, Apple has it down. Microsoft on a clone running e.g. Cubase, and you've got the operating system, application, and hardware all made by different people. It makes sense it's just a lot tougher to get that right. I guess that's why everyone is complaining that Vista means getting all new hardware, especially if you're in the typical group who runs a computer for over 4 years.