By Robert Barnes
Washington Post Staff Writer
Wednesday, May 21, 2008; Page A01

A federal appeals court in Richmond again declared Virginia's abortion law unconstitutional yesterday, saying it is more restrictive than the federal ban on late-term abortion that the U.S. Supreme Court approved last year.

The U.S. Court of Appeals for the 4th Circuit has never allowed Virginia's Partial Birth Infanticide Act of 2003 to take effect, but the Supreme Court ordered it last year to reexamine the law in light of the high court's decision upholding the federal ban.

Since that April 2007 ruling, federal appeals courts have struck down abortion laws in Michigan and Virginia, saying they go beyond what the Supreme Court approved.

In Richmond, the same three-judge panel that overturned the law in 2005 repeated its 2 to 1 decision yesterday, saying that the only way doctors could be certain they would not be prosecuted under the law would be to stop performing abortions.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/story/2008/05/20/ST2008052002114.ht ml?hpid=topnews

I'm sure Herb, Broadway, Pat Robertson and Jay Sekulow are planning their next move. In classic Pat Robertson fashion, I'm sure he'll ask his followers to send him money to appeal the decision.

All the while, he's sending the money to buy more diamond mines in Africa. Pat's good at the bait and switch game -- just like most televangelist grifters.

A sad day for the truly most innocent citizens of America. Lost one battle...there will be more. Have a long "pro-life war" to wage on to which many millions of Americans support.

Everyone deserves a birthday!

I often wonder which anti-life members of this forum would prefer to have been sucked out of the womb instead of being born.

Now Deane, as requested on the subject, we need to have compassion. As you stated the "procedure" is pretty gruesome humane wise.

I hope all reading these boards are very thankful to be alive. Life is hard, life is very enjoyable. It's part of all of our realities...of being a human...a person...to enjoy each other's company...to communicate and share life experiences together.

Just encouraging LIFE...a great choice...unfortunately not by some of our judges

And who are the anti-life members Deane?

Since you have invoked a classification type, that does carry with it the assumption that you have members of that type to so classify, so who are they, or are you just blowing smoke again?

Anti-life?

Anyone supporting the anti-life agenda of naral and the aclu.

Herb

I support the life and the choice of the mother. Let's ask the female posters here how they feel about government mandated birth.

And I assume you have names Herb?

Ones that haven't died would be good.

>>government mandated birth

I love it! Go for it Supreme Court! Go for it Congress! Bring it on Mr. President!

"And I assume you have names Herb?"

Just look at the aclu & naral membership rosters.

Herb

Hey you were supporting Deane, who said those people were members of this fine community.

Gonna go back on that now, both of you, or slink away, after getting the cheap and easy feel good?

There isn't anybody here that fits that characterization.

"And who are the anti-life members Deane? "

Wouldn't it be the opposite of pro-life members? If you're not pro-life, then you must be anti-life.

Someone is getting a God complex.

I'm anti-family.

Deane, I wonder about all the women who have died needlessly because of complications from back alley abortions? Given your misogynistic tone, your comments about pro-choice supporters shouldn't come as any surprise.

"I wonder about all the women who have died needlessly because of complications from back alley abortions?"

Seems to me the solution would be not to have a back alley abortion.

That certainly is one. The other is go to a doctor.

Or not get pregnant unless you want to have the baby. This isn't exactly the dark ages when it comes to contraception.

Totally.

As if it's a binary proposition! It isn't and you know that --you've even said so Deane. Maybe I should just go digging for it.

Grade school stuff today.

Exactly. Or never have sex. That's another option.

"I wonder about all the women who have died needlessly because of complications from back alley abortions?"

Deane’s answer: Seems to me the solution would be not to have a back alley abortion.

Spoken like a true gentleman – circa 10,000 years BC...

"If you're not pro-life, then you must be anti-life."

And that puts a nice point on the fact that it's all about how you frame the question.

Pro-choice vs. Anti-choice, or pro-life vs. anti-life? Which one holds up better to logical scrutiny?

Clearly, it's ludicrous to believe that any sane person would hold an anti-life position.

THEREFORE, ipso facto, etc... to frame the question as pro-life vs. anti-life is a distortion of reality. NOBODY supports the position that life isn't valuable, and to suggest so is rediculous in the extreme, not to mention denigrating to those who are proported to support that position.

The REAL question is whether a woman should have the right to choose between carrying the baby or aborting it.

The question is about choice, not life. Those who frame the question in terms of life are (intentionally or not) distorting the question.

Deane makes his point and my point at the same time - You have a choice and they are simple options to understand. If you don't want an abortion, don't get one. Who can argue with that? If you do want an abortion, get one. Who can argure with that?

Oops, I forgot Talpdx. This is a liberal dominated forum where folks expect to be able to do whatever feels good at the moment without consideration of the consequences. Sorry about that.

More grade school stuff.

News getting you down Deane?

(probably)

It's a pretty low blow to imply that women having abortions "feel good" about it, or are you talking about the sex before marriage, or just sex period?

(you've made statements contradictory to that too, which are also still in the archives, BTW)

If you can't stand the heat, find more conservatives to join our sandbox.

Oooh!

Maybe we will get a new Dodge to add to the Dodge list. Been a while since anybody worked #2 really hard. Maybe it's got potential.

(all seen here folks)

1. Subject change

This can be anything. Usually it's abortion, gays, god, guns, etc...

2. Claim of too many opponents

Laughable at best, but often very effective. They can play the "lone warrior" card, or some other silly thing.

3. Claim to either be a member of, or opponents of discussion being members of club, with said membership somehow required to complete what is otherwise a non-rational conclusion.

Tricky! It's usually some class thing, particularly common with more wealthy Republicans. They will claim that others just haven't had the kind of experience it takes to really understand how the world works.

4. Silence

This one is pretty potent! So, they know they are pinned, but will just wait for some other time to try and gain ground again. Will happen over and over and over. They don't rest --ever.

5. Claim of overall subject and or implications of subject complexity being greater than scope of discussion

"It's too complex", or "you oversimplify", something like that.

6. Invoke false comparison

7. Transform rational argument into emotional one

After the winning points are made, an emotional fall back is always a good attempt to marginalize the whole thing, without actually accepting the loss.

8. The Bible says...

'nuff said, we know about this one, I am sure.

9. Invoke redefinition of common words


10. Invoke slippery label to redefine winners primary point at hand

Same as #9, but specific to political labels where being "conservative" or "liberal" really means whatever it takes to get out of being pinned down.

11. Claim of invalid higher authority / Claim of no high authority

12. Obsfucation, where some degree of acceptance is seen, but wrapped in difficult to reference terms

This is an appeasement move. The winner has won, but deny them the easy opportunity of using that win later on to impact others.

13. "I forgot, could you remind me again?", used to force other parties to tire of the subject and move on.

Tons of variations on this one. "Too Intellectual", "book doctor", etc... It's a specialized personal attack. Nobody likes really smart people, right?

14. Necessary party unavailable for comment.

"If you do want an abortion, get one. Who can argue with that?"


The baby being sucked out of the womb certainly can't, that's for sure.

I think there is also a 5.5, which would be the opposite of 5. It is the oversimplification of complex issues. Example: "Either you love America or you don't!", or "You are either pro-life or anti-life". Conservatives like to paint their world, and their arguments, in this fashion.

I agree.

Maybe just characterize it as willful reduction?

False binary proposition?

I kind of like that one: "There he goes binary again! Discussion is OVER, next!"

Never know. Could work like 'random' does with kids today.

" The baby being sucked out of the womb certainly can't, that's for sure."

Right. Can you?

Deane,

It's an age old hypothetical situation to ask, but say your sister is knocked up my a conservative Republican pro-life married Senator from Nebraska, do you still vote for the guy?

Might as well, he's going to win anyway in Nebraska.

LOL.

OK - it took me a while; You have very low standards and you are fine with that.

I wish you would have just said that in the beginning instead of pretending that your stances are definable, if not defensable. They are often, neither.

>>age old hypothetical situation

4000 abortions a day in America is reality

I also think it comes down to what you have experienced in life.

I have personally known serveral women who have had abortions. The reasons they got pregnant and the reasons they got abortions differ.

If the situations behind the decision to get an abortion was a one size fits all this debate wouldn't be on-going.

It's a difficult decision for some and we should respect that decision.

I know I couldn't make that decision, but then again it's not mine to make.

"As if it's a binary proposition!"

Earth to leftists: there is right and there is wrong. Binary, indeed.

Herb

Yeah ok, but let's just play with this a bit:

We've got pro-life and not pro-life, and choice and not choice, and life at conception and not life at conception.

So, that's 8 BINARY propositions, where there are at least that many distinct ideological combinations, many of which are represented right here.

Hell, want 16?

Let's put religious and not religious in there just for entertainment value.

There you go. For added fun, plenty of them are plausable, meaning you don't get to say "my way is the right way" as clearly there are multiple ways in play here.

Happy?

Don't think so.

As I’ve stated on more than one occasion, I sincerely feel that the Right to Life community lacks credibility because of its relationship with the conservative cause. If life is so precious, then why does it align itself with a political movement that supports the war in Iraq? And then too why does it support an administration that has promoted an agenda which cuts funding for programs designed to help children all the while supporting tax cuts for the very wealthy? I find them wholly hypocritical and lacking in compassion.

I think this disconnect comes directly from a false reasoning; namely, considering something binary, as in wrong or right, when it's clearly a greater set of issues and solutions.

Oversimplification, supported by dogma.

Folks, this is the best things are gonna get for the hate-choice crowd. Its all downhill from here for them. No Bush-stocked radical righties on the Supreme Court, no Roe vs Wade overturn, no lighting bolt from the sky (God) . . .

They're circling the drain toward oblivion, clearly the result of God's master plan to get them to shut the hell up . . . .

It's easy to be anti-choice when your role in the pregnancy ends when you light the cigarette.

>> The reasons they got pregnant and the reasons they got abortions differ.

So a person can kill a person for "his reason" and that would be ok?

>>If the situations behind the decision to get an abortion was a one size fits all...

90% plus of abortions are for birth control...fits a lot of sizes....

I'm hoping your friends are doing ok emotionally. Many women wish they did not have their abortions. info link below...

http://postabortionsyndrome.org/

Dan-

You want to control women. That is deeply apparent.

One woman who had two abortions does feel guilty and that she committed murder....twice. Because of these strong guilt feelings she eventually turned to the Catholic church.

We had many long talks over the years. She cut my hair for 16 years. The last 3-4 years it was from her home where we could talk openly and freely about all kinds of things including our Christian faith.

She eventually got married and had 4 boys. Her last child ended up being a special needs kid. I have not talked to her in serveral years since they have moved and she no longer cuts hair.

Another woman who had an abortion was in an abusive marriage. The husband was eventually killed in a car accident. His passenger in that accident was a woman he was fooling around with, she survived the accident.

Before her husband died she had gotten pregnant. Her decision to abort the pregnancy was based on not wanting to bring a child into that kind of situation. After her abortion the doctors and nurses told her to stay away from sexual intercourse in order heal. However her abusive husband forced her to have sex and she got an infection and nearly died.

To this day she feels the abortion was the right decision.

Two different women with two different stories and outcomes. Lumping their situations into one category does not work. However since you'll never know because you are unable to give birth, the best you can possibly do is show some empathy and compassion to those who do make, at times, a very difficult decision.

Dan be a man, and let the woman decide.

"Happy? Don't think so."

It isn't about 'happy.'

It's about right and wrong.

Herb

Any one of at least 16 kinds of right and wrong, right Herb?

You lose on this one man. Oversimplification does not get you anywhere solid.

It must be HELL to only see Black & White in a world so full of COLOR!

"There can be no justice so long as laws are absolute!"

Whose quote is that Dark? I like that one.

I like it because if we don't have possession of absolute truth in a matter, then we have no business pretending we can then realize absolute laws.

You really want to know?

Spiderman?

"Justice" (Star Trek: The Next Generation)

Captain Picard said this and i've always remembered it. It just made to much sense.

Here is the full quote which I should have posted:

"life itself is an exercise in exceptions", and to every living creature within the sound of his voice, "there can be no justice so long as laws are absolute!" Riker adds, "When has justice ever been as simple as a rulebook?"

Now who says TV just rots the brain!

Ok. So I guess everything's grey.

That means slavery and Hitler were both simply misunderstood.

After all, the US got some cheap labour and Hitler sure got his country noticed.

What a hand-wringing, leftist-headed, slippery-sloped, crock.

Herb

What a hand-cuffing, reich-minded, hard-liner, way of thinking!

Go figure!

Picard quotes actually worthy! Love it.

Thanks.

Yes Herb, things are Grey. Welcome to the first stage of healing. May you get to acceptance and be healthy sooner, rather than later!

" Ok. So I guess everything's grey. "

Read that. Think about that for a second. Notice how quickly he turns this into only something he can deal with. " Some things cannot be grey. So NOTHING is grey. And to prove it, I will cite two things that that nobody ever challenges; Slavery and Hitler. Therefore I have proven my point. No other subject could possibly be grey because I just have proven lack of greyness in my examples. And that always applies to EVERYTHING."

I love how Herb can't even fathom the concept of grey - even when talking about the concept of GREY!

Maybe this will help; EVERYTHING is not black and white.

See, you gotta use his language. Then you have to hand Coco a banana. Coco pretty.

>>"life itself is an exercise in exceptions", and to every living creature within the sound of his voice, "there can be no justice so long as laws are absolute!" Riker adds, "When has justice ever been as simple as a rulebook?"

I hear a distant bell of anarchy..."a state of society without government or law".

" I hear a distant bell of anarchy..."

No you don't.

No, Just a society with the compassion, the wisdom, and the understanding that every life is unique and often every situation is as well.

I also here one ringing "situation ethics"...actually that one been going on since the hippy days of the 60's.

"Some things cannot be grey."

Now you're onto something.

Herb

"EVERYTHING is not black and white."

Nicely stated.

Herbert Milhous

>>Dan be a man, and let the woman decide

So when a woman gets an abortion I become more of a man? Obviously my position is an advisory roll. Encourage life whenever we can when the pregnancy happens. There are many help organizations in every city in America to counsel life. Heres one

http://www.care-net.org/

great site

"I also here one ringing 'situation ethics'."

Is that the same situational ethics that condemns murder in my neighborhood, but condones murder on the battlefield by soldiers at war? Situational ethics that says "every life is precious", except those sentenced to death by a fallable and imperfect justice system? That bell of situational ethics has been ringing throughout time immemorial.

Even Hitler did some good(autobahn, VW Bug).
Some (most?) slaveholders were otherwise good people.
Sometimes killing is justifiable under the law.

I don't know how more obvious it could be that nearly nothing is black or white.

"...nearly nothing is black or white."

Nearly, huh?

It has to do with the defense of the innocent. Where innocents are harmed by those with evil intent, you'll find your black and white.

Course, if one is a leftist and doesn't believe in evil, everything's grey.

Herb

Do rightists who don't believe in evil see everything in grey too or is it exclusively the leftists?

It doesn't have anything to do with letting the woman make the choice then?

"It doesn't have anything to do with letting the woman make the choice then?"

The womens choice is made when she chooses to get pregnant. To give her the choice to kill the baby as a means of birth control is uncivilized.

So Herb the women whom I shared their abortion stories, are they evil?

Then again how would you know, you don't them. But if you're willing to put that moniker on them maybe you need to step into their shoes.

Dan there is some wonderful counseling organizations that help women and men out during difficult and at times unbearable situations.

Being a man is allowing a woman to make the choice she feels is right for her life. I may not always agree with that decision but I can certainly show some compassion to the woman and not a shaking finger.

My wife and I are deeply compatible but on occasion we do see things differently. If I feel strongly about something and she feels equally strong about it we hammer out our differences. I don't "make" her choose something that she doesn't want to do.

But then again that's within a loving and equal partnership. Not all women have that in their lives so their choices maybe different based on the circumstance.

Listen- I appreciate you and Herb's strong stance on abortion. Herb said even if he got a woman pregnant that was not his wife, and the woman ultimately choose to abort, Herb agreed she would have the final decision. I thought that was a pretty honest realization on Herb's behalf. I know he wouldn't like the choice but he recognized where the final decision comes from.

"The womens choice is made when she chooses to get pregnant."

Spoken like a true redneck old fart pigheaded chauvanistic Republican! Should she also be barefoot and in the kitchen with your food hot and ready to appease to your backasswards midwest morals?

First off, an abortion does not kill a baby. If it did, abortion would be illegal. Using the term "baby" is a pathetic attempt to sway the argument using emotions and a false reality. Abortion TERMINATES THE PREGNANCY.

"To give her the choice to kill the baby as a means of birth control is uncivilized."

No. What's uncivilized is our government forcing any pregnant woman to give birth. That's what third world countries do.

"The womens choice is made when she chooses to get pregnant. To give her the choice to kill the baby as a means of birth control is uncivilized."

That's a pretty simplistic way of looking at it. Not every woman "chooses" to get pregnant. Accidents do happen, as do assaults that result in pregnancy.

What is uncivilized is to advocate in favor of the unborn fetus at the expense of the mother who may be ill equipped to raise a child and support herself. All the pro-life support seems to vanish once the child is born.

Herb, has your wife ever had an abortion?

---

quote:

"The womens choice is made when she chooses to get pregnant."

---

I have had 2 ectopic (tubal) pregnancies.

The first one went undiagnosed although I had visited my MD 4 times with complaints of feeling tired, run-down, and nauseated. Classic morning sickness, in hindsight, but my MD determined I was "working too hard" after testing me for Mono, HIV, Hepatitis, and a myriad of other things. At 8-10 weeks, I ended up in emergency surgery bleeding out. That was when I found out I was pregnant, on the way to the OR.

Fast forward 10 years. Same exact thing happened again, except I had a female MD who tested me immediately. Pregnant again. She sent me to have a sonogram due to some other symptoms and found out I was ectopic again. Guess what? There is no treatment. I had blood tests every day for 2 weeks, monitoring hormonal levels, to determine if my body would reabsorb the embryo or if it would continue as a normal pregnancy and burst like the previous one had. I waited for 2 weeks hoping I could get to the hospital before I died.

If I could have aborted that second time, I would have in a heartbeat.

When you take normal precautions like I did (I was on the Pill both times) and still get pregnant, that is not a choice. Women accept that our bodies are pretty much in control of us, not the other way around, and the men I've had conversations with on that topic agree they really don't know how that feels. We operate from different perspectives. Women cannot decide when cycles are convenient, pregnancy is convenient, menopause is convenient...it just happens, all throughout our lives.

Men do not have comparable issues to experience, can't trade places with us in this regard. The good ones show compassion, but still are on the outside looking in.

How some try to judge and control others, without having to face the experience themselves, infuriates me.

Entre-

Thank you.

"Herb, has your wife ever had an abortion?"

A fair question.

No. And if she had, I would love her no less, and she would need all the love possible, given the problems of post-abortion trauma syndrome.

As a final note, instead of having an abortion, Mrs. Herb is a huge adoption proponent and was key in our family's adopting a child, whom we love with all our hearts.

She also found some very encouraging remarks in the primary from an unsuspecting source in Mr. Giuliani, who while not a pro-life candidate, did significantly increase adoptions in New York City.

We're adoption fans.

Herb

This is a liberal dominated forum where folks expect to be able to do whatever feels good at the moment without consideration of the consequences.

Like INVADE a country that poses NO threat to the United States and KILL INNOCENT Women and CHILDREN??? And HUNDREDS of UNborn children as well?

Earth to Trixter, earth to Trixter. You're stuck in nuetral. Come in Trixter. Can we help you?

YOUR EXTREME WAYS??? NO Fin way!

Earth to 5 yr old....

There is NO help for you....

Thanks Herb - I know that was a more personal question than usual. I was just curious. No trap or anything.

What is your experience with women who have had an abortion? ( Not that you have to have any in order to feel what you feel. I'm just curious. I know a few women who have had abortions. All of them have gone on to have children. That's about it in a nutshell for me and my experience. )

And this has been such a long standing issue with you, and many others. I can't help but wonder about how you got where you are today? I'm not passing judgement. I just wonder, like, have you always thought this was a top issue for yourself? Did you have a girlfriend that had to make that choice? Did you feel this way when you were younger? What do you do with that in your daily life? Is voting the extent? Campaigning on this message board? Anything else? Leaflets? Abortion clinic protests? Writing to congress? Something church sponsored? I'm guessing prayer - but I don't want to assume anything.

It's just SUCH a passion for you. I'm interested in how that manifests itself in your real life. Honestly.

I'm interested in how that manifests itself in your real life. Honestly.

NO friends, No family no nothing....

Yeah yeah yeah. Geeze.

Excellent questions, Chickenjuggler.

I've marched for life around the Capitol...and while I've long thought of myself as pro-life, looking back, I realize that had I been in certain situations, at that point I likely would have been tempted to have not practiced what I said I believed.

Without saying too much, let's just say that Mrs. Herb has counseled women in difficult situations and we're both very glad and grateful that our child's birth mother chose life. When I hold our child's little hand and realize what might never have been...it really gets to you.

Herb

" ...and while I've long thought of myself as pro-life, looking back, I realize that had I been in certain situations, at that point I likely would have been tempted to have not practiced what I said I believed."

Wow. Quite honest. Thanks.

And you can answer this or not, but am I reading your last part correctly that you adopted a child that was born directly because you were able to convince the birthmother, who was going to get an abortion, that you'd provide the alternative in this case?

Chris: Thanks for listening.

The fact that in my situation, I had chosen to try not to get pregnant, and did anyway, clearly points out that it happens, no matter the intent. I'm pretty certain that I'm not the only female on the planet that is included in the Pill's failure rate.

Although I had no choice in the outcome, had the situation been normal, I'm glad it would have been a personal decision and not open to debate or forbidden by strangers who really don't give two hoots about what happens later.

That is why I value the right to choose and thoughtful people who are compassionate either way.

To me, that's the big issue right there. Women's bodies DO stuff!

As a guy, that's somewhat disturbing really. For somebody, who is a control freak, it's got to be downright annoying. Our technology brings better choices and that's good. No need to legislate them away.

That's just willful ignorance in action.

Got your back Entre_nous!

"And you can answer this or not, but am I reading your last part correctly that you adopted a child that was born directly because you were able to convince the birthmother, who was going to get an abortion, that you'd provide the alternative in this case?"

No convincing was made, but a helping hand and prayerful support was indeed given.

However, we later learned that things were indeed extremely 'touch and go' before the birth and that for a while, things were headed into a very, very sad direction.

Mrs. Herb was given a holy message of where things were headed. We now realize that a great deal of prayer is likely what turned things around.

satan hates innocent, vulnerable little kids, and loves death, whether through abortion or any other wanton murder. The angels were surely singing loud when our little child was born.

Herb

>>Spoken like a true redneck old fart pigheaded chauvanistic Republican! Should she also be barefoot and in the kitchen with your food hot and ready to appease to your backasswards midwest morals?

so much for a civil discussion on the issue. Someone answer this...why are the prolifers here getting criticized for there stance but absolutly no comments on the profanities and demeaning personal comments to them?

>>an abortion does not kill a baby. If it did, abortion would be illegal. Using the term "baby" is a pathetic attempt to sway the argument using emotions and a false reality. Abortion TERMINATES THE PREGNANCY

I am hoping one day you will know the folly of the above statement.

"so much for a civil discussion on the issue. Someone answer this...why are the prolifers here getting criticized for there stance but absolutly no comments on the profanities and demeaning personal comments to them?"


What it means is that the poster is utterly and completely out of anything intelligent to say, so they start posting profanities, insults and calling names. It means the recipient of the attack has prevailed beyond question in the merits of the discussion.

The other thing is occasionally means is that the person making the derogatory diatribe is not very bright to begin with.

It also means some of us are not all that worried about profanity, nor are we worried about heated comments.

Additionally, it means that some folks are ignoring real information from an actual woman with an actual experience. So, a dear friend of mine gives you the straight story and instead of focusing on her facts, you attack the conjecture of another guy miles up the thread. EN, I got your back too.

There is also the small miracle that is an honest, open and constructive discussion between Herb and Chickenjuggler, but heck, that aint important either. No, the boys just gotta stand around and take bets as to who can write their name in the snow with their chilly weenies.

Finally, knocking Darktemper and Edselehr for "situation ethics" is ridiculous. Remember that crazy Jesus fellow? His pals stole a donkey for him to ride in a parade on his last weekend of freedom. Nobody got hurt, and the animal was returned with a full belly. So it was "okay" in that situation, right?

Pathetic. You wonder why abortion is a bad subject? It has less to do with the topic and more to do with the discourse.

I previously asked which member of this forum cared to step forward and state they would prefer to have been aborted instead of born. No one raised their hand.

I believe you.

I was born before Roe v. Wade. If my mother had wanted an abortion she would have had to drive to Mexico.

By the same token, had the pill worked, I would not be typing this right now.

A woman's choice is a woman's choice.

Perhaps a better question would be:

If you knew that giving birth would kill or cripple your mother would you want to have been born?

Those answers have more potential.

That's because it does not matter.

If we exist, then we clearly prefer to exist. If we don't, then the whole thing is moot.

This oughta stoke it up a tad:

http://www.preciouschildrenofportland.org/

Particularly compelling is the pro-life message by Dr. Martin Luther King's daughter.

Herb

Profound! But I believe God has something to do with all this life stuff after all He invented it!

I stand by my comments regarding Deane. And, I'll add racist bigot to the diatribe as well.

"...after all He invented it!"

Right after some men invented him

Let's get real:

In the time it took you to read this sentence another child died of poverty.

In the time it took you to begin thinking of a snappy retort, another has perished.

And another.

And another.

And another.

You'll notice that Deane uses his real name and doesn't hide behind a fake name. He isn't afraid to identify who he is when he makes a statement or takes a position.

Dying of poverty isn't intentional murder.

"Dying of poverty isn't intentional murder."

And neither is abortion. If abortion was murder, it would be against the law. But it's not, therefore it's not considered murder, no matter how many times you may say it is.

And that's because we've not established that the definition of person begins at conception.

Hey, we can call it pre-murder, for people that are not here with us yet!

My chosen name, like many others here, gives people a quick insight to me better than the name that was chosen for me.

In case you don't understand it, it means "Between Us" which is what these conversations are all about, don't you think? It's also the title of a song I find particularly descriptive of my views, written by a man who is a master wordsmith IMHO.

My real name is in my profile, should anyone care to know it.

Please continue.

"Dying of poverty isn't intentional murder."

It seems that for those that choose to be in poverty and die from it, it is something like suicide. And for those who could help those trapped in poverty do nothing, and then those in poverty die, it is something like murder.

After re-reading the conversation Herb and CJ had, it brings a question to mind, and I also would like to thank Herb for really answering CJ's questions thoughtfully and honestly.

My question is this: Herb, I'm assuming you have a special place in your heart for the birth mother of your child. If you had done the exact same things (talked, offered support, prayer) and she had decided against giving birth, would you feel the same way about her anyway? I'm not trying to trap you either, but am in effect asking if you value her as a human in her own right, or because you prevailed upon her to choose to do the "right thing"? What if she hadn't chosen your family as the ones to raise her child?

"Herb, I'm assuming you have a special place in your heart for the birth mother of your child. If you had done the exact same things (talked, offered support, prayer) and she had decided against giving birth, would you feel the same way about her anyway? I'm not trying to trap you either, but am in effect asking if you value her as a human in her own right, or because you prevailed upon her to choose to do the "right thing"? What if she hadn't chosen your family as the ones to raise her child?"

I'd be grieved had our child's birth mother not chosen life. I wouldn't be grieved had she chosen another loving family.

Regarding valuing her in her own right, I love her with a brother's love for a sister. I deeply admire her very brave decision, and our child will grow up knowing that his birth mother loves him so much that she made the decision for life, even though it was not easy.

Herb

Thank you, Herb. That all makes perfect sense and I do appreciate your answer. But one little piece remains, and I'm going to rephrase:

You know this woman well. You know her background and the circumstances that have led up to her situation. If she chooses to end her pregnancy, do your feelings change or remain the same?

Everyone talks about the MD's and clinics that perform abortion. I'd like to know how people feel about the women who choose it.

"If she chooses to end her pregnancy, do your feelings change or remain the same?"

I feel love for the woman, grieve for her and her never-to-be-born child and know that while she's made a decision which is final...as with so many women who are pressured by a selfish boyfriend or husband, it might not have been the decision she desired. Most women err on the side of protecting their baby.

That's just one reason why planned parenthood is so evil. They attempt to strip away a woman's natural inclination to protect the unborn child. If there's a hell, and the Bible assures us that there most certainly is, then the hottest part is reserved for those who profit from such dastardly bloodletting.

Herb

The folks profiting from war will be in line before them though.

I agree with Vitalogy 100 percent. Those who have profited from the war in Iraq deserve a special place in the afterlife.

Those who have profited from the war in Iraq deserve a special place in the afterlife.

Right next to Nixon and Hitler.

Herb, again, thank you. Sometimes it sounds like once a pregnancy is confirmed, the woman becomes nothing more than an incubator and her only value is determined by her choice to give birth or not. People always talking about "the baby" and not "the mother"...

But, if you read Planned Parenthood's site, they do not soft-peddle the facts about abortion, it's very clearly explained and all the alternatives are as well. They present the facts, and nowhere do I sense them talking anybody "into" anything. You make it sound like they're out on the streets with banners recruiting the undecided. Their main focus is on prevention and education, and by the numbers, 5% of their services are abortions.

How many do you suppose they've prevented with that other 95%?

Littlesongs: I have had your question rolling around in my head since you asked it. If I can get my answers distilled into a reasonable form...

It's alot to think about.

"5% of their services are abortions."

Right. And Stalin, Mao and Kim Il Sung said they were working for the people.

Would you believe German soldiers during WWII if they said they weren't mistreating any of their prisoners in concentration camps?

You must be smarter than that, to swallow hook, line and sinker the classic leftist approach of believing any statistics stated by those killing the unborn for profit.

Given the fact of what they'll do for lucre, I wouldn't believe them no matter what they stated.

Herb

Herb I do appreciate your passion for those who get adopted and in this instance the woman who so graciously has allowed you and your wife to be special care-takers of her child. I know you take great pride and joy knowing the gift you have in your life.

Have you ever spent anytime at Planned Parenthood? Gone there for information gathering and to ask the hard questions?

Unlike Stalin and Mao and the German soldiers, you can walk into a Planned Parenthood clinic and not be thrown in jail or persecuted. And what little I know of you I actually believe you would be respectful to those in the office and on staff.

You have a chance to "Cross the enemies lines" in a peaceful discourse. Now I maybe wasting my limited typing skills because I wouldn't doubt you may have already done this.

Like Entre I have been impressed with your honesty and thank you for sharing this very personal side of your life.

Thanks, Chris.

My view is that attempts to make such groups palatable misses the point.

For example, it wouldn't matter much if the KKK gave lots of money to poor kids in Africa, if they continued to behave in so many other unsavoury ways.

I don't expect you to believe as I do, but just because a group heralds itself as doing good, doesn't remove the facts regarding what many see as bad.

Herb

So they really do an ass load of abortions, but aren't telling because that would highlight their deeply hidden, kill all the unborn, agenda.

Sometimes you sound just nuts Herb.

My daughter is making use of Planned Parenthood services right now. Want to know why?

She's got no health coverage. I can't add her right now, she does not make enough to get it herself, and she's got something wrong with an ovary, causing extreme pain.

She is currently looking for employment that will provide some coverage, but it's difficult to find. And at her income level, just starting out in her 20's, I doubt the McCain fend for your self tax credit plan will do any good. Gotta have income to realize relief.

Also tough to get jobs when in extreme pain.

So, let's see the options:

1. Deal and hope it goes away. Given she also has endometriosis (and I know I didn't spell that right), that's pre-existing and thus renders her uninsurable.

40K people per year do this and die.

2. Take a trip to the emergency room, for some tests and pain meds and huge debt. Already did this, and it's a few thousand dollars to pay off, on beginner wages. (I'm gonna help, of course, but still that's a few thousand I don't really have either)

That trip confirmed she needs some care for sure, BTW.

3. Go find God and hope he helps.

4. Suicide.

5. Lie, cheat, steal, prostitute her self.

6. Apply for aid from the State / Fed government. She did that, got some food relief, which can pay for pain medication, or some of the emergency room debt, or maybe an office visit once a month.

7. Seek help from charitable organizations.

Hey, that's a good one right?

Enter Planned Parenthood. Did you know they handle female problems Herb? I didn't until we had to sort through this mess. Turns out that they deal with reproductive issues --all of them, not just the abortions.

Women's bodies do stuff. They do stuff that could cause them to die, without medical attention. Lots of people, namely us Men, really don't understand the impact of that.

That's the primary reason the organization exists!

They exist to empower women to have some control over their reproductive systems. That's contraception, education, medical attention for problems that may or may not be related to pregnancy, empowerment in terms of support, links to assistance, services, councilling, and abortion if warranted.

I've gotten to know a bit about this organization recently. They do some really great stuff and are filling a real need.

Seems to me, anybody could apply your, "well, they do that nothing else matters bad thing" to lots of groups, where there is some disagreement, and we would end up with NO organizations trying to help people.

Euthanasia.

Abortion on demand.

Research on living human stem cells.

That's quite a 'pro-death' democrat platform.

Herb

You're a master of rhetoric, just like Kevin James.

Yeah well, not everybody thinks these things are the end of the world.

Which is why you sound kind of nuts.

How about this?

Mega sized evangelical Christian churches promote a bigoted anti-gay environment and need to be removed from our society.

Sounds nuts, doesn't it?

It does to me.

Both do a lot of good right? Both have some elements we find deplorable.

Yep.

Walking around with a mini-ecosystem with it's own agenda and timetable takes some work. Trouble is, most of the things it's up to are hidden and painless until there's a real problem.

Places like Planned Parenthood make it easier for us to deal with those issues by being (effectively) a specialized women's clinic that's affordable, well staffed, and up to date.

Missing, hugs for your daughter. I've had ovarian cysts, those are bad enough, but her eco-system is putting her through hell right now.

That's exactly what she has going. What we don't know yet is if the thing will resolve, or not.

So, for now it just hurts, and needs to be tested again, after a waiting time.

Thanks! I'll pass the thought along.

And Stalin, Mao and Kim Il Sung said they were working for the people.

So did DUHbya.....

Remember George W. Bush campaigned as a "compassionate conservative". An oxymoron if I've ever heard one.

"compassionate conservative"

Like MEAN Liberal???

What's breathtaking is how democrats claim to defend children, yet with a straight face they then proceed to promote the most violently anti-child legislation possible.

It's all a farce. Their pleas of 'more money for schools' is merely a way to payback their agenda-driven anti-God, anti-life, pro-socialist and pro-evolutionist NEA lobby pals.

Herb

Yeah - uh - that one was just so far off the charts than I don't even know where to start.

So I'm not gonna.

One thing that is good to remember though; Neither Herb, nor I, actually believe any of that to be true.

Has me scratching my head too CJ.

"Yeah - uh - that one was just so far off the charts than I don't even know where to start."


I'm not surprised a Democrat wouldn't know where to start since truth is stranger than fiction.

At first, it may seem a little extreme, then after a bit of thought it begins to come into focus as a realistic picture of the liberal viewpoint.

Come on Deane!

I know you know better than that. We've had conversations here that reveal exactly that, so what's the deal?

Feeling a bit trapped maybe? Bunker mentality coming on? You know there are pills for that. "The Change You Deserve" is a slogan for Anti-Depressant medication and the Republican Party!

They know their remaining supporters are gonna need the help.

There are only 5 stages to get through. I know Acceptance is a big one, but it's worth it! It really is!

If you can get there, along with your other staunch friends, the party can rebuild! It's not too late to start.

I don't wee what the liberal viewpoint has to do with the disarray in the Republican party.

Well, these characterizations of the liberal view point are filled with false assertions and false comparisons. The Republican party has suffered from these for quite some time now.

It also suffers from crime, corruption and is currently pinned between trying to pander to it's "I've got an axe to grind and I vote" base, and the rest of us.

(that's funny actually)

The two are linked as in, lots of staunch Republicans are saying whatever they have to in order to prop up the party. They've got no where to go right now, particularly if they are members of the axe grinders.

We've discussed this before and have come to rational conclusions, and that's the other part of the link.

You know better, having been rational about this stuff!

Enter irrational contributions here that you feel you need to support. It's bunk, and that's really it.

Excuse me, I had to take time out for a good Republican lunch. An Omaha steak (8 oz filet), raised by a well-to-do Nebraska Republican beef farmer.

What did you Democrats have for lunch today?

" I'm not surprised a Democrat wouldn't know where to start since truth is stranger than fiction. "

Deane, do you believe the following to be true and accurate of anyone here?

" Their pleas of 'more money for schools' is merely a way to payback their agenda-driven anti-God, anti-life, pro-socialist and pro-evolutionist NEA lobby pals. "

Seems like it might be.

Blaming the NEA. That's as original as blaming the Tri-Lateral Commission, the United Nations, People for the American Way and Planned Parenthood for all the ills of the nation. Where is the John Birch Society when you really need them?

I'm having a Democratic farm raised rib eye steak whilst getting blown by my Democratic wife while watching sports on my Democraticly purchased HD big screen.

Top that old man.

" Seems like it might be."

Way to take a stand. I'll take that as a " no."

I rest my case.

"Blaming the NEA. That's as original as blaming the Tri-Lateral Commission, the United Nations, People for the American Way and Planned Parenthood for all the ills of the nation. Where is the John Birch Society when you really need them?"

Consider that the NEA, the UN, people for the american way, planned parenthood, naral and the aclu are all opposed to the traditional values of God and Country. They won't come out and admit it, but all of those socialist-leaning groups want to disarm Americans and cede our freedoms to the UN.

Deane's spot on, as usual. The thread's there. It's coalition politics, plain and simple.

Herb

I'm sure Herb misses the days of the McCarthy witch hunts. I could see Herb and Roy Cohn working hand in hand to unearth and expose the depravity of those fiendish humanists.

Witch hunts?

Just check out the actions of the above-named groups.

These are people who would shake their fists at God, were they to even admit He exists.

A tawdry and motley bunch, that lot of evil-doers.

Herb

Spare us your tripe.

Boy, church must have been particularly empowering on Sunday, eh? I mean for it to carry on through a holiday and all.

That's funny.

Hey Deane, this meat eating, gun loving, socially liberal, fiscal conservative Oregonian had 1" thick steaks, world famous Mrs. KSKD Potato Salad, chips and some really great soda in the bottle.

Damn, it's good to have family that can cook. Omaha steaks don't even compare to the fine, fresh cuts of meat I ate today.

And, to top it off, the food only reinforces the great political sea change coming. Makes it better.

I just had a tuna sandwich.

I had tofu while I finshed my craigslist order of Dreamcatchers and Patchouli candles.

LEGALIZE HEMP!