http://youtube.com/watch?v=Eygv8qEkiFE

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/ppcw/donate.htm

Promoting donations to an organisation taking money specifically for aborting black babies shows how extreme the left is.

Herb

Planned Parenthood health centers focus on prevention: 81 percent of our clients receive services to prevent unintended pregnancy.

Planned Parenthood services help prevent more than 642,000 unintended pregnancies each year.

Planned Parenthood provides more than 1 million Pap tests and more than 880,000 breast exams each year, critical services in detecting cancer.

Planned Parenthood provides more than 3 million tests and treatments for sexually transmitted infections, including HIV.

Three percent of all Planned Parenthood health services are abortion services.

Planned Parenthood affiliates provide educational programs to 1.2 million young people and adults each year.

Planned Parenthood has more than four million activists, supporters, and donors working for women's health and safety and our fundamental reproductive rights.

I'm gonna do it each time Herb. Say one extreme, plus the other = moderate.

The philosophies of Hegel and Marx's dialectical materialism are well suited to a group who while denying absolute truth, attempts to re-define the very concept of truth for everyone else, and on a constant basis.

That's the only way one could fall all over themself in pathetic attempts to defend the killing of the innocent.

But hey, it even worked for Germany in World War II...for a while, anyway. And Hitler was a vegetarian who loved animals.

Herb

Herb continues his dribble on a one note concert. We know your position, and we're simply tired it.

Your "innocent lives" mantra never seems to resonate with the millions who die globally to preventable starvation.

You're a one trick pony that's out of tricks. Go back to your stall.

Revelation 3:16.

Herb

Nice try lukewarm breath. Doesn't cut it here bro.

Proverbs 6:19

Herb: If you truly want to defend the innocent, how about a donation to the prosecutors fund to put those Oregon City cult member's in jail for murdering their child?

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/120702031416210.xm l&coll=7

Of course, faux pro-lifer's like yourself probably secretly support them and don't give a damn about the child, who already was on this earth, who was purposefully murdered by the mom and dad in the name of their religion.

Geez, Herb--have you been watching the new Ben Stein movie?

shows how extreme the left is.

And the REICH isn't???

The philosophies of Hegel and Marx's dialectical materialism are well suited to a group who while denying absolute truth, attempts to re-define the very concept of truth for everyone else, and on a constant basis.


WHAT THE FUCK??? Isn't that what YOU do on a consistent basis Herbocrite?

I wonder if there were any staffers that took calls like this that refused a donation for this purpose.

Also, was money actually given at any point?

"Isn't that what YOU do on a consistent basis Herbocrite?"

Wrong. Read what I wrote:

"The philosophies of Hegel and Marx's dialectical materialism are well suited to a group who while denying absolute truth..."

I believe in absolute truth. Those who don't make it up as they go along, re-inventing the wheel in the process. It's fitting that notorious communists like Marx were big on dialectical materialism. If everything is grey, there's no right and wrong, except if you say it is. No judgment, either. At least for now, anyway.

What the left often tries to do on this board is to equate something good, like the pro-life cause, with something that isn't, like abortion on demand.

Atheism is promoted by those who think man thinks he knows so much. They worship the created, not the Creator.

"Pride goeth before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall. Better it is to be of an humble spirit with the lowly, than to divide the spoil with the proud." Proverbs 16:18-19, KJV

Herb

"I believe in absolute truth. "

Which is really the root of most of your problems.

As much as you wish it to not be so, the world is chock full of grey, without very much pure black or white.

Viewing the world black & white or grey is the key issue between liberals and conservatives.

It's fine to believe in Heaven. But there is also a hell, and it helps no one to deny God's Word and act as if there isn't.

If some states are now charging those who murder a pregnant female with two counts of murder, that would mean the law is recognizing that the fetus is a viable person.

With this in mind, why is it murder in the above cases, but not murder if the doctor kills the baby?

Herb, your version of absolute truth is nothing close to the truth. It's made up by man and you're a sucker. You're simply following a rule book that is outdated and unproven. Follow the rule of treating others as you'd like to be treated and you don't need the bible to dictate your every move or belief in life.

Deane, it's murder when someone else takes away the life of a fetus without the mother's consent. It's not murder if the mother decides to terminate the pregnancy as our current law allows. It also has to do with the viability of the pregnancy as well. I'm okay with charging someone with two counts of murder if the woman is 7 months pregnant. However, I'm not okay with it if she's 7 weeks.

Viewing the world black & white or grey is the key issue between liberals and conservatives.

I absolutely agree with this. It's not holy or unholy; it's not good or evil; it's not corrupt or perfect. It's just as you described.

Black and white is the way many want the world to be, but grey is the way it is. Black and white is simple, while grey is complex. Black and white generates absolute, seemingly permanent answers, while grey's 'right' answer is often like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow - you can get close but you'll never find it.

This admission should help us avoid a lot of left/right misunderstanding in the future, Herb.

"You're simply following a rule book that is outdated and unproven. Follow the rule of treating others as you'd like to be treated.."

Fine. We'll use your rules.

For starters, how about not slaughtering the innocent? Or is that how you'd like to have been treated?

What the left won't admit is that in an attempt to avoid the truth, one can always attempt to find a way to slither away without accountability. That's man's fallen nature. If you're so fast to hold polluters accountable, why not those who do wrong in other areas? It's a selectively partisan blind spot.

And I've pointed out many times how the Bible is neither outdated or unproven. Just because you wish to ignore facts doesnt' mean I have to repeat them.

Herb

Damn it Herb, this wouldn't have been a problem if Bill Clinton never became president!!!

I believe in absolute truth.

Then why is it that you consistently bring half truth a blatant lies to this message board?

And I've pointed out many times how the Bible is neither outdated or unproven.

I believe in the Bible but to some it is just what it is Herb. A book....


In an attempt to avoid the truth, one can always attempt to find a way to slither away without accountability.

This is what you do MANY times on this board. When the facts are brought to YOUR attention you REFUSE to answer them.

"When the facts are brought to YOUR attention you REFUSE to answer them."

This is an affliction know as RWD.

RWD is an affliction most frequently associated with the CHR.

RWD = Right wingers disease

CHR = Christian Herboid Right

I don't believe in slaughtering the innocent. That's why I was against the Iraq war from day one and it's also why I support gun control.

I don't consider 7 week old embryo's to be innocent life. It's not viable on it's own with no guarantees it ever will be, and by the laws of our country, abortion is not slaughter or murder, it's a legal medical procedure. The best part about it, because the US is a free country, you're free to not have or be involved in an abortion. As is usually the case though, those that are most against things like abortion are also the ones getting them when it's needed.

And as far as the bible goes, it is outdated AND unproven. We can prove the sun rises from the east. We can prove water boils at 212 degrees. It will NEVER be proven that the bible is the word of god or has any factual basis. You simply have faith it is without any proof.

It's like the EXTREME RIGHT is VOID of all truth. I DO NOT subscribe to LEFT wing propaganda either but it's the one's in the MIDDLE that make the most sense and think for themself.
EXTREME on both sides don't have the answers because they like to BEND it their way no matter what.

Hey, is the guy on the left Herb?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=si0WTCMrksw

"I believe in the Bible but to some it is just what it is Herb. A book...."

That's hard to argue with. In fact, that's one of the truest statements you've made lately, Trixter.

Herb

OH MY GOD!

Here we go again.

Absolute Truth, Biblical Truth, Apocalyptic Truth, Ultimate Truth, Empirical Truth, Historical Truth, Spiritual Truth.

And of course, just Truth.

Which is it?

Oh, and yes, please give the kind folks at Planned Parenthood a call or donation.

http://www.plannedparenthood.org/ppcw/donate.htm

I've linked the Oregon chapter, but if you are somewhere else, feel free to donate local, see the results local.

Grey world indeed. Analog to the core, not binary.

As word gets out about such a racist, anti-child organisation, anyone found contributing to them will have 'splainin to do.

Herb

To Who?

The thing is, the more you talk about things in your way, Herb ( and frankly, I'm not wishing you'd do it any differently ) the more turned off for God I become. If I was somehow spiritually thirsty or something like that, to most people ( not just people like me - but others too ) would be like " geeze. If that's what God does for you, I'll pass." When you focus SO strongly on " The world hates God " and " The sword " you never really show the other side. You come off sounding like a victim who actually enjoys feeling like a victim and persecuted. Now, honestly, maybe in your real-life you show some joy in having a relationship with God. But you don't ever seem happy to have one around here. Why would that make people say " Hmm. He seems happy to have a relationship with God. Maybe I'll try it."?

You obviously feel you've been called upon to be a soldier. But when the response you get around here - not just from " liberals " either - points out your lack of ability to be an evangelist - well - I'm sure you're not surprised that people who don't feel that same calling as you do are pretty turned off by God.

So soldier on. You are fighting a good fight. But it's all neck and no head or heart too often for me.

Then again, maybe you'll recruit some more soldiers. I don't know. But there ARE people who are out there, and here, looking to be loved AND victorious. I suspect that your upbringing has brought you to where you are today. I'm not saying it's impossible, but it's rare to find someone who started out knowing the love - yet feels compelled to talk about only the sword all the time. A person who talks about the sword so much, usually has been brought up in an atmosphere of patriarchal toughness that can inhibit too many of the other parts of knowing God. All because you'd probably label that as weak or whimpy or something. Joyless. Offering no hope - but plenty of battle.


Again, I'm not requesting that you change one single thing. I'm just pointing out that if you are going to talk so much about being persecuted and your sword, you cannot be surpised if that fails to convert anyone on any level.

Good points, Chickenjuggler.

I don't agree with his tactics, but John Brown's cause was just. Sometimes when I read posts here, it brings out a little of the John Brown in me.

We are in indeed a struggle against good and evil and to those whom are given much, much is expected. I guess defending the defenseless means different things to different people.

Herb

Well thanks for taking that in the spirit meant.

Even if it didn't sound so nice - I was just talking with you. And you heard me. That's all a person can ask around here some days.

So even though Herb and I (and I know others on this board as well) do read our bible, and find comfort and strength from it, I think what Herb has experienced and what I've seen in my life, it really gets down to not only where we are but also where we've been.

Herb- you have kept your cards pretty close to you. You have only revealed what you have wanted too. Very safe and to be honest a pretty smart move.

You’re quick to point out philosophical differences, biblical passages and a decent truckload of historical information. Many times wrapped in an electrifying manner.

But it’s only sound bites. What we don’t see is how you have come to these conclusions from a personal perspective. Where in your walk in life did the road come up and hit you in such a way that has brought you to this point in your life? You certainly don’t have to share any of that or even give us an inkling.

With Deane, we have some history, albeit along time ago, he used to sign my paychecks. He used to flip me some pretty good shit in our day but it was all good.

However with you Herb it’s different. We only get a glimpse and it’s the same hand. We don’t see the other sides of you, then again do we want to?

I’m not asking for a personal resume or any kind of genealogy chart, just recognize that there are many of us who have a deep faith that doesn't even come close to how you have represented the faith.

When I read that a guy like CJ seriously thinks the worst of our faith based on what you’ve posted it hurts me to the core. Then I begin to question my own motives. I don’t know….is that what you really want?

I can handle your anti-abortion stance, in some ways I admire your persistence and you have caused me to pause on more than one occasion to re-evaluate my position. Then sadly you post a scripture passage without any explanation and it just falls flat. That’s where I believe you and I have our biggest problems.

You’ve called me a wimpy, wishy-washy, kum by yah campfire Jesus Christian. (or words to that affect). I’ve attempted to share with others on this board not all Christian’s share your interpretation of scriptures and believe me it’s hard work.

So for what it’s worth, like CJ, I’m not here to change you, merely to be a different voice of the same faith.

For what it's worth, the path walked to current positions, CARRIES A LOT OF WEIGHT WITH ME.

Chris, maybe I need to rephrase what I was saying;

I'm not saying that Herb has caused me to lose a little faith. I'm saying that I, personally, do not respond to only hearing about battles for God. Combat. Fight. I can intellectually understand it and can support why it exists and cite history and passages and possibly even the future ( yes, I'm THAT good ). I'm saying that it is not a primary motivating factor that fills me up in any way.

I do not think the worst of anyone's faith. The most I can cop to is admiting that the person who thirves on the endless battle-factor causes me to get quickly fatigued when it comes to anything regarding God.

But make no mistake about it - I have my own issues to answer for. I am not worried about the lack of being a warrior for God as among all the things I know I've done. Herb, too often for me, tries to make me feels bad for not acknowledging the sword. What am I supposed to do there? Fake it? Pretend that I feel that way?

It's a complex issue. Uh, ageless, comes to mind. I ain't gonna solve it for anyone - and probably not even me. I'm ok with that. Herb seems less so.

I'm not even offended and just barely bugged. But big deal. If I am not going to be a hypocrite, I'll just go about my life with my own feelings about God and take my lumps when and where I need to, I guess. ( That came out much more apologetic than I actually feel. But hey, I'm a diplomat today. They do that sometimes ).

I saw a very fitting bumper sticker today:

"God is too big to fit into just one religion"

>>"God is too big to fit into just one religion"

Boy...that's a lie from satan himself.

Actually I kind of like that bumper sticker myself.

Broadway, you seem to have a strong opinion on the matter. Would you like to have a conversation about it? I have some questions if you are up for it.

"a lie from satan himself"

It's probably a more factual statement than anything you've uttered to date.

I am not a cheerleader for Planned Parenthood, but I have a real problem with the "gotcha" tactics used in the video that was referenced at the beginning of this discussion. The Planned Parenthood people on the other end of the line are just employees or volunteers of the organization; they are not ringleaders or spokespeople.

The persons who placed these racist calls to Planned Parenthood intentionally put the Planned Parenthood donation processors into a highly awkward situation. The donation processors don't want to be rude to the callers. What are they supposed to do? Hang up? Lecture the callers? The video's producers then push a specific interpretation of the donation processors' behavior onto the viewer. If journalists used these kinds of tactics to get information for an investigative report, they would be heavily criticized for acting unethically.

I guess defending the defenseless means different things to different people.

You Herb think that defending the unborn is your job. I think the same on that but DO NOT voice it like yourself. I on the other hand think that the DEFENSELESS in Iraq is the same as the work your trying to do. Problem there is YOU think they deserve it. You think that they had something to do with 9/11 and that they should pay for it. For that..... YOU are in the same class as the unborn baby killers.
Sorry! Just the way I see it.....

I’m no fan of abortion but I feel it’s imperative that women be given the right to choose. It’s a really emotional and terribly unattractive issue, but given the numbers of women who died in the commission of abortions prior to Roe V Wade, I think it’s a right which is justified. My real hope however is that adults and sexually active teen girls and teen boys learn how to be responsible if they choose to engage with the opposite sex.

I could care less about abortions, Kill away.

Let me translate Herb's comments:

"Yada, yada, yada."

I like the bumper sticker too.

It's a very good expression of religious freedom. That's an American thing.

I wish men could get pregnant then abortion wouldn't be a subject. Women need the right to choose. Rape and incest is not a fun thing and trying to make such a huge decision is not taken lightly. I'm sure some of you know at least one women who had an abortion. Being pregnant and not ready for a baby is horrifying.

Praying to God will not make it go away. So where is God when you need him or her? Helping Carrie Underwood with her out of control car. My bad, that was Jesus.

The Bible was written by a bunch of asshole men trying to control women.

Ha!!

Agreed.

"The Bible was written by a bunch of asshole men trying to control women."

Amen!

Wow, misskitty may have spoken the truest words yet.

Welcome Misskitty. I think that the church has engaged in patriarchal dominance for so long that most of the folks in the pews cannot even see it. This explains why so many men believe that dogma can be combined with law to give them domain over the biology of women. Not a week goes by around here without one of the male multitude giving us all a dose of thunder about why women should be regulated by the government like an industry.

I am only speaking for myself, but I would disdain any sort of penis legislation, or a coalition of churches who felt entitled to preach about the contents and uses of my testicles. I would be livid if I were told by law and by faith that I had no choice but to use my semen for strictly for fertilization. Women are not farms or livestock, they are people. The idea that a uterus is in the "public domain" is absolutely mad. The concept that one gender can make laws that only affect the other gender is the antithesis of democracy.

The bible was not written by asshole men to control women, it was written by asshole men to control everyone.

Personally, my ex had an abortion and it was not because of rape or incest, she just didnt want more kids.

>>I could care less about abortions, Kill away

sad sad stuff...another spirit/attitude of satan...death as opposed to life given by Jesus Christ. Most of you who post in this side of the board are believing a whole lot of lies that the world has broadcast thru a lot of means for generations now...If you get to know Jesus Christ FOR WHO HE REALLY IS...and SEEK HIM WITH ALL OF YOUR HEARTS/BEING...your lives will truely be changed and I know He'll bring peace to you and your families...cause I don't sense an

James 4:8 Come near to God, and he will come near to you. Clean up your lives, you sinners. Purify your hearts, you people who can't make up your mind.

"I am not a cheerleader for Planned Parenthood, but..."

"I’m no fan of abortion but..."

I find the above recent qualifiers both heartening and discouraging.

On one hand, at least there is an admission to distancing oneself from abortion.

But even abortion providers gussy up what they do with terms and language that attempts to mitigate what they do. And even the most ardent abortion provider wouldn't admit to being a fan of making money from abortion.

Herb

Herb - I dare you to find anyone in here who IS a "fan of abortion". Whether you're pro-life or pro-choice, I don't see any cheerleaders sitting on the sidelines here, saying "RAH RAH ABORTION RAH RAH RAH".

The fact of the matter is this: Abortions are going to take place, no matter whether they are legal or not. You're a guy who supposedly values life. Would you really have back-alley abortions, or other drastic measures by females desperate to rid themselves of a pregnancy, that seriously puts THEIR own life at risk over the current method? Would you rather see a probable increase in babies disposed of in dumpsters?

You're quick to paint anyone who doesn't want to overturn Roe v. Wade as a drastic baby-killer. Think of the consequences.

"Abortions are going to take place, no matter whether they are legal or not."

That's a pretty sad view which presumes the worst. How about changing hearts and minds by providing education about positive alternatives, such as adoption?

My view on accepting abortion as normative is the same reason our society doesn't legalise harmful drugs. For by giving a 'pass' to such behaviour, it provides a stamp of approval to some.

Rather than attempt to make an admitted negative like abortion acceptable, how about making providing a child with a loving home acceptable? As an adoptive parent, I've seen it work and work well.

Herb

"Rather than attempt to make an admitted negative like abortion acceptable, how about making providing a child with a loving home acceptable? "

I totally agree. However many of those agencies are losing funding because of the war, and the economy. And even if a pregnancy comes to term the life of many of those children will be less than ideal. Poverty awaits most.

I thank God you have adopted but a higher percentage will not and be lost in a system already overloaded.

Let's stop the pregnancy before it happens. It is preventable.

"Let's stop the pregnancy before it happens. It is preventable."

Absolutely.

Herb

Herb get real. Adoption is not the answer to abortion. What women wants stretch marks just to give the baby away?

Broadway: Drug, alcohol or both? Most religious nut cases change one vice for another.

Again...Christians are not perfect...just forgiven by a loving God that will forgive all sin and crud of life if you repent/turn from your sin lifestyle and live Christ-like (Christian) and make right-choices in life(righteousness) He will change your sin desires if you ask Him!

Broadway, you're beyond hope. You should be in a rubber room wearing a helmet.

Broadway, you're beyond hope. You should be in a rubber room wearing a helmet.

It's OK for you to put down religion and Christians in your posts, but not OK for Broadway to promote and spread it in his?

Ya gotta love the leftist LIEberals double standard.

What you're witnessing Skybill, it the fact that liberals are absolutely certain that no one is right except them.

"What women wants stretch marks just to give the baby away?"

Not all women are so uncaring and shallow.

"It is poverty to decide that a child must die so that you may live as you wish."
Mother Teresa of Calcutta

Herb

"that liberals are absolutely certain that no one is right except them."

Nah, I just get sick and tired of the double speak from so-called christians preaching their hatred and goodness all in one sentence. I can see why Chris Taylor cringes at some of these posts.

"What women wants stretch marks just to give the baby away?"

A true liberal. Can't sing though with one note. ME ME ME ME ME ME ME.

Deane, you would certainly know about ME ME ME ME ME. It's the base of the GOP platform. "I got mine, fuck the rest of you."

When you boys get pregnant let me know. I was lucky, I didn't get stretch marks with my son. I'm not a liberal, I'm a realist.

MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE!

Typical neo-CON

the fact that liberals are absolutely certain that no one is right except them.

A true liberal. Can't sing though with one note. ME ME ME ME ME ME ME.

Deane, you would certainly know about ME ME ME ME ME. It's the base of the GOP platform. "I got mine, fuck the rest of you."

-----

You guys are making some incorrect assumptions... self-righteousness, selfishness, and other failings are common to BOTH sides of the isle. It's a fallacy to believe that these failings are exclusive to (or dominant to) one side or the other.

Very true Tdac.

Welcome, Misskitty!

I would suggest that the state of fatherhood today has quite a bit to do with abortion statistics.

If you want to say that a woman's concern for the state of her body after pregnancy is callous and shallow, consider how much money is spent on repairs: liposuction, breast lifts and implants, tummy tucks, etc., so that body is still deemed attractive to you guys, who expect us to look 20 all of our lives...right down to joking with doctors about taking "that one extra stitch" after passing a bowling ball through a garden hose.

And then don't want to help raise some other man's child.

Perhaps we need to license anti-abortion protestors -- you gotta get your tummy stretched first.