Here is a case where the government (New Mexico Human Rights Commission) has over-stepped their bounds.

A business owner can refuse to do business with ANYBODY they don't want to do business with.

http://www.onenewsnow.com/Legal/Default.aspx?id=75547

If I own a business and I don’t want to do business with you, for ANY reason, that is my right.

I don’t like the color of your hair…No sale.

I don’t like the perfume you wear…No sale.

I don’t like the color of your skin (While I don’t agree with this reason, it is still the right of the business owner) …No sale.

ANY reason at all…No sale.

Anything else is just the government sticking their nose in where it doesn’t belong.

I like the last line in the story; The Commission's decision is tantamount to the State of New Mexico forcing a vegetarian videographer to create a commercial for a butcher shop.

No you can't, if you conduct business with the public, you are bound by both federal and state anti discrimination laws.

Those signs that say "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone we choose". Have no basis in law.

Well then that's wrong.

It's my business and I'll serve whomever I want.

If I was a photographer, I'd do the same as those folks in NM did.

Bill, did you miss the whole point of the civil rights movement of the 1960s? All those "Whites Only" signs in the South? Hotels where blacks weren't allowed to stay? Lunch counters in the south where blacks weren't allowed to sit? Sorry, that should be wrong and is legally wrong.

Andrew

I understand that and as I mentioned above, I certainly don't think that race discrimination is right.

However, if I own a business and don't want you (generically) as a customer, for any reason, that should be my right too.

I think that if I owned a business and this situation arose, knowing what I know and how the lawyers work, I might not have said that I wouldn't do it because they were lesbo's, I might have said something like "Sorry, I'm booked full that day" (and any other day they happened to choose)

So there's Skybill, driving across the desert and running low on gas. Up ahead in the distance reads a sign, "Gas 1 mile, last gas for 100 miles." Skybill pulls in, an old geezer with a beard comes out, "What'll it be there yung feller?" he asks. "Fill it up, regular" says Skybill. The old guy grabs the hose and goes towards the rear of Bill's car. He notes the "Bush-Cheney" bumpersticker still on the car from '04. "Well durn'd be, young fella, it appears the tank has run dry. Sorry. There's another station 100 miles up." The old geezer puts the hose away and heads back to the office, where Skybill notices an Obama sticker on the window.

Actually, a real capitalist running a business takes anyone's money, regardless of race, religion, or gender preference.

As ye sow, so shall ye reap.

Actually, a real capitalist running a business takes anyone's money, regardless of race, religion, or gender preference.

I agree.

However, I don't think a person should be forced to go against their beliefs and principals like these folks were.

As far as the old guy and the gas station, I believe that it should be his right to do so if he wants.

Edit add: Actually the bumper sticker might say McCain-Rice!

Skybill DOES have a point ... there are anti-discrimination laws in effect tied in with the Civil Rights Act of 1964, but I am not sure if they mean that you can't help an individual because you don't want to, or if it has to do with them not even being allowed into your business.

Example (of a religious/beliefs one):

My mother was the head of the kitchen/bath department of a prominent Spokane-area hardware/home improvement chain. She was at work at their location in Hayden, Idaho. Richard Butler, who at the time was the head of the Aryan Nations, walked up to her asking for help with kitchen remodeling stuff.

My mother looked at him, recognized who it was, and said to him, "I'm sorry, we don't serve your type. Please take your business elsewhere."

It has nothing to do with a group of people as a whole. He was not blocked from coming in. She had a personal problem with him and his beliefs and teachings, and refused to help him.

I have been a mobile DJ at several same sex commitment ceremonies/marriage and receptions. The most recent was last summer in Astoria.

When I was first contacted by one of the women involved she gave no indication this was a lesbian couple. When they decided to book me for their event I noticed the other name being a female name.

Never once in our discussions did they or I even bring up the obvious fact of what type of wedding ceremony was going to take place. Nor did I mind. I'm about celebrations.

I have had others contact me and politely ask if I do same sex receptions. The ones I have turned down are because I was already booked. But I did pass along other DJ's for them to contact.

If the photographers didn't want to do the ceremony they should simply say they are not available on that date. You don't have to give a reason. Plus they could have given the names of other photographers who might have been available.

Since I do own two businesses I do pick and choose whom I want to do work for, but my reasons for not choosing a company or person(s) is based on if the project or event will be successful and not on race, sexual orientation or otherwise.

I agree with Chris and Andrew.

Personally, I have had several same sex clients that I've worked with. The subject always comes up, and more times than not, somewhat sheepishly, but, once they get the fact that I don't care, it's no longer an issue for them and I can sense the fact that they are more comfortable knowing this. Technically, if I did turn them down based on their sexuality, it would be illegal in my business.

Skybill, it sounds to me like you believe in discrimination. Good thing the law in NM is as it is. When the photographers shell out the six grand, I hope they think about the lesson of treating others like you'd want to be treated. After all, is this the christian thing to do??

My good friend is an African AMerican (male Nurse) at Good Sam Portland Northwest Portland.
He told me he has a LOT fewer patients than most nurses because he is black. Infact he told me A LOT of the eldery and even a great deal of younger people will flat out tell him "I don't want a black person helping me give my meds, Please get me somebody else." It used to bother him, but now it doesn't. Its actually kid of nice because he has far less work to do because has half as many patients. Racism is still a very real problem in the workplace and at businesses. Thats pretty fucked up to deny somebody service because they are black.
The civil rights act from the 60's and Womens right act has greatly improved since the 60's, BUT I know plenty of women who are still not paid as high as their male co-worker and is just as experienced as the man. How many of you out there have ever been with a friend or a co-worker who shouted out some racist comment that made you blush? I know I have. I actually experienced racism. On day I was getting my Yugo Vallet parked and the parking attendant(who was black) called me "mayonnaise."

How ironic that today in the Oregonian there was a story about housing discrimination and how that act has curtailed, but not eliminated, the discrimination that occurs in all facets of housing.

http://www.oregonlive.com/living/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/living/12078807253257 40.xml&coll=7

So if I own my own real estate company, and say my name is John L. Scott, do I have the right to deny gays?

Say I own my own mortgage company. Do I have the right to deny two gay people buying a home?

The thing that just galls me, is it's the so-called christians who are claiming discrimination, when in reality, THEY are the one's being blatantly and unfairly discriminatory. They hate in the name of god, and excuse their ignorance in the name of god.

"so-called christians who are claiming discrimination, when in reality, THEY are the one's being blatantly and unfairly discriminatory. They hate in the name of god, and excuse their ignorance in the name of god."

As a Christian it bothers me too.

....called me "mayonnaise."

What? Don't you know your jive talk?

What he probably said was: "Man, ayse a lot of cars there"!!!

Gosh Bill, that is such a scream. How many times do I have to hear that kind of rhetoric from you before I simply call you a racist? Ten times? Twenty times? A hundred times?

Don't feed me that whole "p.c" argument either. You know full well that your skin color has been a benefit or you would not throw stones with such careless abandon.

I have been called a "nigger lover" buying a Christmas tree in Portland with my oldest and dearest friend. Parse it anyway you want, it is still bigotry.

Whoa, whoa...No racist stuff, it's a take off of Jeff Foxworthy's redneck words.

Check this out for yourself.

http://www.evtv1.com/player.aspx?itemnum=40

Chill, man.

Jeff Foxworthy is a newly rich white man who consistently exploits stereotypes about poor whites for his income. So, why wouldn't he joke about blacks too? When he is creating steady improvement with his fame for all the rural poor in the south, he will have a leg to stand on. Like his fellow funnyman, Bill Cosby, he thinks it is just fine to trash on the powerless. They both would do well to pick on somebody their own size.

As for the church goers in New Mexico, I think that if you have open doors, open hearts and an open scripture, you are a church. If it is anything else, you are a cult, a corporation, or a club. Cults, corporations and clubs are not given special rights by the Constitution.

By asserting that bigotry is a "Christian" belief, they are claiming to speak for all Christians. If the state had agreed to that definition, it would have opened the door for any number of white supremacist, misogynist or other secular concepts to be defined as Christian.

Christianity in and of itself does not preach or promote hatred, bigotry or intolerance. The Christianity I grew up with preached love and tolerance.

It's the people TEACHING the Christianity who take God's word and twist it into their own personal agenda.

THAT is what is wrong!

Absolutely true Brian.

It's worth thinking really hard about that and the harm it does.

I'm not a believer, of any kind right now, and that's a HUGE part of the reason. I just can't do it! There is no way I can even be marginally associated with people who have those kinds of core character issues.

Would rather just have my own religion, that way it can't be leveraged by nut-bags, and that's where I am today. Probably will stay there too.

The fact that a significant number of them have worked hard to establish power seriously worries me. I hate to say it, but it's really no different than those things we see in the Taliban, and nobody likes them!

I've another problem with all of this too and that's the use of shame.

Any body of people, who believe that shame is a tool for self-improvement, just flat out has it wrong. Could write a book on just how wrong that is. Arrghh!!!!

It's ok to feel shame, but it's not ok to be shamed, and that's it. I'll leave thinking about why that is, for another thread someday.

Basically, we all have the right to politely decline these kinds of things. There are plenty of socially acceptable outs. It's ok too. Sometimes people make us uncomfortable. So that's human and to be accepted the best way we can.

Really, that's about that particular person, not classes of people, or sets of people with specific attributes. And that's just not as well understood as it needs to be.

Taking those outs is the right thing to do. It's human and nobody is going to fault anybody for it.

If something specific is said about it, that's shaming and it's really about trying to leverage a position of power (business owner) over somebody else. The power person then has some seriously harmful control issues and I really hate those issues!

We are right to have laws against that.

How big our bank accounts are, what we can do, what we own, etc... are no measure of our overall character as people. At the end of the day, we are just peers. We have zero right to shame people, because we may occupy a position that enables us to do so.

IMHO, these people tried to claim some greater worth or stature, and that's an abuse of their position. Had they just politely declined, then it would have just been exercising their beliefs, flawed or not, as they see fit.

Maybe the dollars will help them reconsider.

More likely than not, it won't though, and that's just sad. They should go really read that good book for some of the better answers instead of just focusing on some minor and contradictory bits.

And that's really how I see the issue here. These people were not forced to do something that clashes with their beliefs. What they did have to pay for was dealing out shame, when they have no solid justification for it.

And "Bob said God said" isn't such a justification.

Problem is, the left wants to re-define God as One who's fine with abortion and same-sex marriage.

He isn't.

Herb

So let them. What effect does that have on you?

Exactly!

Herb, NOBODY owns God. God is exactly what we say God is, period, end of story!

What the Left wants is that freedom to remain an option. I sure as fuck can't live with your definition of God. I don't know many that can!

Let me put that another way:

God is not defined right now. Ever really think about that? Bet you have actually. Likely worries you sick.

I, for one, am here to insure it absolutely remains that way. Everybody, and I mean everybody, gets to make their own spiritual choices in this world. This is important. In fact, it's very likely one of those "nothing else matters" issues for me.

CJ is right Herb. God is who you say God is. Either people will agree with you, or they just won't, and that's the end of it.

"I sure...can't live with your definition of God."

It's not my definition. Your problem is syncretism. You want to believe only those parts you can finesse, without making having to make hard choices. Ah. Armchair religion.

It's lukewarm and it's less than worthless, for it gives one a sense of religiosity without acknowledging we must change our own sin nature.

We can't get into better physical shape by being lazy and without some exercise. Why would anyone believe we can improve our spiritual shape by being lazy and without changes in that area as well?

If you want to airbrush the parts of the Bible that make you uncomfortable, then welcome to the primrose path that leads to hades.

But by lining up our own version of how we perceive the Almighty with His Word, that's how we grow and change for the better.

That's why we have the Bible.

Remember, the world HATES Jesus. They want to make Him into anything but divine, they want to make Him simply a 'good' guy and a 'moral teacher.'

"I am trying to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: "I am ready to accept Jesus as the great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God." That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a boiled egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to." C.S. Lewis

Go with the world's view of God and expect to be confused. But the devil himself will be pleased and you will have lost many opportunities for a better life.

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10 (KJV)

Herb

John 11:35

Sean 12:00

Last Call 2:29

"Remember, the world HATES Jesus."

Her(esy)b 4:20

"You've totally lost it, weirdo"

Jesus to Herb:86

"He would either be a lunatic - on a level with the man who says he is a boiled egg - or else he would be the Devil of Hell."

C.S. Lewis describing Herrb.

P.S. How many followers are you up to now, Herb? I know a place in Texas that has a vacancy for you.

After reading that last diatribe, it's pretty clear who the "lunatic" is.

KSKD 5:00 (after this thread, who can blame me right?)

It does worry you sick! Knew it.

Well, you can say this or that Herb, but you don't get to define God for me. Have a nice day, knowing you don't get to, SIMPLY BECAUSE I SAY SO.

Oh, and be a man about quoting me too.

It was, "I sure as FUCK can't live with your definition of God." You really can't marginalize the ugly part and get the whole story.

The profanity is in there to express my extreme loathing for the idea that anybody could even possibly think they are somehow in a position of authority that could warrant trying to dominate somebody else spiritually.

"Remember, the world HATES Jesus. They want to make Him into anything but divine, they want to make Him simply a 'good' guy and a 'moral teacher.'"

The world does not HATE Jesus, Herb. Other than maybe the devil-worshipping folk, nobody hates Jesus. Some choose to not believe, and that's their own choice ... doesn't mean they HATE Jesus. You can't hate what or whom you don't believe to exist, right?

Even the Muslim faith has a spot for Jesus in their teachings sir. Look it up. I dare you.

What much of the world hates is man's interpretation of Jesus' teachings. Jesus WAS a moral teacher. He was a moral compass we ALL should follow (well those who believe). Instead of turning His shoulder away from the poor, He gave to the poor. He performed miracles for the poor. He did not teach bigotry and intolerance and unacceptance; he welcomed ALL into his realm.

What mankind has done is take the teachings of Jesus, and formed them into their own sick little minds. Do you REALLY think the folks at godhatesfags.com do their work "in the name of God"? Is this what Jesus would do? Really? Are you serious?

Would Jesus preach bigotry and intolerance against the Jews and non-Aryan people like the Aryan Nations did, again in the name of God? Really? are you serious?

And before you start spouting off scripture justifying your basis, we'll have Chris Taylor, himself a very self-professed believer and God-fearing man, refuting your scripture with other scripture.

The Holy Bible was written by man. It is interpreted by man. It is a living document, I firmly believe that, but it is also subject to fallacy because of the human element.

I'm not going to resort to name-calling here Herb, I know you're above that and to be frank, I'm not in the mood. But if you start using God as a crutch for your bombastic, close-minded arguments ... well, may God help you.

http://blog.wired.com/27bstroke6/2008/04/roommatescom-no.html

A little more on the subject.

Herb continues to ploy the notion that his beliefs are the only beliefs that are valid. We already know he's a narrow minded fellow. None of us are going to enlighten him to come out of the dark ages that rules his psyche. His fears prevent him from accepting any ideas beyond that which was instilled in his brain by those whom influenced his maturation. Accept him as he is. Many others feel as he does but aren't even interested in making their case before others that do not share the exact same ideology nor theology. I, for one, never will understand how some amongst Herb's ilk focus on the fear factor with respect to The Almighty. Perhaps there is a link between that and the fact that many right wing extremists are so taken in by the Bush/Cheney politics of fear. I don't know. I do know that G-d is not wanting us to fear Him.

The LORD is my light and my salvation
whom shall I fear?
The LORD is the stronghold of my life
of whom shall I be afraid?
Psalm 27:1 New International Version Bible

All you who fear the Lord, trust the Lord!
He is your helper and your shield.
Psalm 115:11 New Living Translation Bible

The Lord is aware that Herb is afraid of Him. He won't hold it against Herb. Herb doesn't understand the difference between love and fear, to him they are the same.

Can't we have a physics thread. I'm a lot better at that.

Wow everybody, you have nailed it down. I just got done talking to two very sincere "Joho" gals for an hour on my porch. They had a copy of Watchtower about the end of the world. We spent a little time on Isaiah and John. They were convinced Armageddon was coming and it was out of our control.

I explained to them that I felt that we were heading toward a Biblical end because of humans. I let them in on the secret that the powers that be are nihilists, and use Christianity, Judaism and the Muslim faiths as an excuse for the destruction of mankind. I did my due diligence by informing them that John was indeed a prophet, and everything that he said would come to pass, already came to pass when the Roman empire fell.

I tried to help them understand that whatever steps need to be taken to save ourselves is within each of us, and that God works through people for change. I asked them why Jesus himself did not speak of the world coming to an end, nor did he approach the people that he met as doomed creatures unworthy of love, forgiveness or truth.

They both left understanding that true men of God, like Dr. King, did not believe the human race was destined to destroy itself. He and Jesus and Ghandi and any other leader of strong faith had love and forgiveness at the center, not retribution and destruction. Regardless of the tangled webs of dogma, the universal truth of all people is that we all have to change ourselves from within. You do not need God to see that truth, only a deep rooted sense of compassion.

It was worth missing a great baseball documentary to let them in on the true power of humanity to be the positive change. After all, for better or worse, we are all in this together. No amount of division, tradition or superstition can change the fact that our faith is in our heads, but our fate is in our hands. By the end, I could see their wheels turning a little.

@ Skybill, forgive me for chewing your ass. I know you are a Redbirds fan and worshipped Bob Gibson regardless of the color of his skin. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Some folks here like to throw things like that around, but I should not have singled you out.

"Herb continues to ploy the notion that his beliefs are the only beliefs that are valid."

Wrong.

I simply believe the Gospel truth and take Jesus at his Word.

There's plenty of dancing all around that fact here. Some use profanity, some simply name-call, but it's all pretty much the same.

Either Jesus is who He said, or not.

Syncretism is the attempt to blend disparate views. In other words, the Buddhist and the Muslim can both be correct. But there's a big problem.

The Muslim has one view of God, while the Buddhist says the issue of God doesn't even really matter.

Jesus doesn't give that option. Call it closed minded. That's why the world hates Him, for it wants to relegate Jesus as a good guy. He doesn't want to be recognized as one of many, but the Alpha and Omega. And it will cause plenty of problems as He predicted:

"For I have come to set a man against his father, and a daughter against her mother, and a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law . . . Whoever loves father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; and whoever loves son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me." (Matthew 10:35-37)

It's not about going along to get along, people.
Our country enjoys freedom of, or freedom from, religion, thanks to largely Christian men. So we have freedom of choice. Don't think that means the Bible isn't true.

Herb

UNBELIEVABLE!

"Our country enjoys freedom of, or freedom from, religion, thanks to largely (white) Christian men". (No women, of course!)

BIG FAT BULLPOOP, HERB!

Ask any local Native American, the "beastly godless red savages" what was was done to their family in the last 500 years in the name of God. They had NO choice and/or were killed.

Shall I start with mine?

Chief Tumulth (Cascade Chinuk, Wind River, Skamania) hanged by Phil Sheridan (In error, after he warned the whites of upcoming attack). He was 28. The Army gave his widow a bag of gold coins as an apology.

How about some other local examples really simple to research, online, even:
Chemawa Indian Boarding school: Cut your hair, speak English, worship white God, and never practice your own language religion, games, or culture again. Quite possibly never see your family again either.
Memaloose Island - you might know of this from fishing
One of my best friends: one of those literally stolen as an infant from a Navajo mom, given to old white missionaries.

I could write a book on the wrongs perpetuated upon our people by "Christian men". I mean "Christian people".

I hope God punished those people harshly when they arrived all smiling at the gate, and that he sent them downstairs to burn in the same manner that they caused innocent other's deaths.

You are one seriously messed-up sad old man.

And yes, I'd say that to your face. On a Sunday.

Or even on a Saturday, if you belong to one of those culty "Christian" churches. (Like WCG, perhaps?)

Ask the indians what was done to their families, by various other indian tribes over the last several thousand years. Many indian tribes were exterminated by other indian tribes. Most Indian tribes existed on war,

"Most Indian tribes existed on war"?

WTF!?! You truly are an Okie.

What crap have you been taught or read? And it certainly wasn't common here with west coast tribes, and you know it.

Yes, they did it, and they sometimes took slaves, but it wasn't done in the name of Whitey God and to make them succomb to their own religion. The other tribe had something they wanted or had been wronged. And they didn't use guns, big machetes, STDs, blankets with smallpox, and bibles.

The Cheyene, Utes, blackfeet, crow, Apache, Pioute, Mohawk and even Cherokee all warrior based societies. In most of them, a brave couldn't get married until he had participated in a raid on another tribe.

It was done in the name of their various relegions.

"Our country enjoys freedom of, or freedom from, religion, thanks to largely Christian men. So we have freedom of choice."

Ok, I want this on record. I'm gonna archive it for future discussions.

God is undefined, in the eyes of the law here, period, end of story. That comes right from Herb himself.

I think it's perfectly ok to engage in advocacy, talk about the Bible, push a little to get people to think, etc...

When we do those here, it's actually really great!

This whole slapping labels on people crap is exactly that; namely, crap. And I don't think Randy likes that kind of crap.

So we have it here on record now. Our government, formed by largely Christian Men, crafted it such that people are COMPLETELY free to worship, or not, however they see fit, because we need choice.

That means Gay people, for example, are not sinners in the eyes of the law, nor should they be, because WE HAVE CHOICE in religion.

By definition, said choice means, the religion itself cannot be authoritative. It's instructive, it's inspiring, etc... BUT IT'S not the law.

The law is something we all build, according to our choices, in our courts, one decision at a time.

Ever wonder why having all the court justices be the same is so damn important? There it is right there! Because we do have choice, and everybody knows it deep down, the only way to really get control is to game the system, or dominate people into making the choices that are preferred.

The line between advocacy and dirty pool is pretty damn blurry at times huh?

Again, it's a matter of choice here. Discussion over in this regard. Buddist, Christian, Muslim, Agnostic, Catholic, Atheist, Theist, Multi-Theiest, whatever... it's your call, and that's the law of the land.

That means, this is NOT a CHRISTIAN NATION, or we wouldn't have choice, now would we?

Getting back to the business owner then, it's a matter of abuse on their part and they got fined for it. Next time, they can use one of the many easy outs available for just this kind of situation.

Nobody needs to be ashamed of who they are, and the law clearly aligns well with that.

Thanks Herb. Appreciated. Future discussions can be far less heated, don't you think?

Sorry to digress. MK, but this cannot go un-commented upon:

"a brave couldn't get married..."

"a brave"?
"Married"?
"their various "relegions"?

You truly ARE an Okie. As in the ignorant racist hick box-of-hair type of Okie.

"...this is NOT a CHRISTIAN NATION..."

It isn't any longer. But if you think this world is bad now, just wait a little while longer when literally all hell breaks loose. God is not mocked.

Herb

@ Skybill, forgive me for chewing your ass. I know you are a Redbirds fan and worshipped Bob Gibson regardless of the color of his skin. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Some folks here like to throw things like that around, but I should not have singled you out.

Littlesongs, No problem. In rereading it I probably should have said "Redneck Speak" instead of Jive, since Jeff Foxworthy lists it amongst his "Other" words and leans mostly towards rednecks.

That's not to say that there is anything wrong with rednecks. They just have some unique sayings and words.

You should find Jeff Foxworthy's complete list of "other" words. It's really funny!

By the way, I saw Bob Gibson in the 1967 or 1968 World Series. Now there was a man with class. He and Lou Brock were a couple of the best players the Cardinals have ever had!

Nobody mocked God.

The world is bad because too many people voted Republican.

Mrs M. by all means, do your thing. I'm done.

Our resident free-wheeling VW, Herbie, seems to believe that Jesus spent his time wandering around Israel preaching in anger, and spreading a gospel of intolerance and violence. Of course, that is utter poppycock, malarkey, road apples, bison bursts, cowflop and a pile of bull. He spoke truth to power and was murdered for it.

Was Jesus born in a cozy suburban hospital, or a barn? When he spoke to the woman at the well, did he offer her a drink first, or ridicule, shame and condemn her for her thirst? Was his closest female friend a hooker, or a woman of privilege and power? When he spoke the Beatitudes, did it have a whole lot of qualifiers and standards, or was it simple compassion? He loved the powerless people of his tribe and tried to save them from the oppressors. He used a bottom-up approach, like Dr. King, Ghandi, and many others, including the Native-Americans.

I think you are a hypocrite Herb. The same sort of cross-country zealot who would have been naive and happy to poison the First Peoples' minds and bodies, or pick a fight and pray for the Army to come and kill the whole bunch. Like it or not, Jesus never looked to violence as a solution. He was very clear about it when his followers were willing to take up arms against his tormentors.

If you cannot accept the notion that all of the planet is filled with millions of spiritual and kind folks who do not worship your particular definition of God, you will have a lonely place on this earth and an even more unpleasant afterlife. Remember one very important thing Herb: In our history, billions of people have been murdered in the name of an all-powerful and merciless God. In fact, Jesus was one of them.

When the missionaries brought the Whitman massacre on themselves, frankly, they got what they had coming to them. Traditionally, the clergy enabled bloodthirsty empires in Europe, Asia and the Americas. Do you think the folks who were already here, already spiritual and already at one with everything around them were somehow deluded by their culture? Should they also have been murdered by an empire because they weren't following a fellow who was murdered by an empire?

I am sorry that you cannot accept that a "happy hunting ground" is a much older concept than your "strictly defined heaven" full of intolerant bigoted people. As my elderly friend from war-torn Croatia told me with tears in her eyes, "Vy? Zay kill ant kill ant kill, but is vun Got, vith many names! Vy? Zuch hate, zuch hurt. Vy?"

Why do so many pious people kill in a holy name Herb? Is it because spirituality is twisted by dogma into a tool of control rather than a path to enlightenment? Think about it.

@ Skybill, my Red Sox loving family can forgive your Cards for 1967. It hurts them much less now. :0)

When Herb speaks, God cringes.

Littlesongs;

Whatever pulpit you're planning on preaching in let me know and I will be the congregation that day.

You ask me to reconsider my view of Christ. Rather than finesse the Gospels, how about something more than wishful thinking? Let's be real here. Here are just a few examples.

"Jesus never looked to violence as a solution."

"He made a WHIP of cords, and threw all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the changers' money, and overthrew their tables." John 2:15

Since Jesus physically threw the money changers from the temple, what makes you think He gives a pass to those who shed the blood of innocents, like abortionists?

"Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword." Matthew 10:34

"Then He said to them, 'But now whoever has a money-bag and a bag for food should take it. Whoever does not have a sword should sell his coat and buy one.'" Luke 22:36

And you're correct in why He was killed. He enraged then as He enrages so many now. Don't buy the kum-bah-yah version that Jesus is OK. No, to the world, He's NOT okay.

Ever been through a museum lately? They don't use AD and BC anymore. They've replaced it with something far more PC that removes Jesus and call it CE and BCE...Common era and before common era. Why attempt to erase reference to Christ if He's not offensive?

Ever watch American Idol? Just last week, they air-brushed the very name of Jesus from a song on that show:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=61234

http://www.realitytvmagazine.com/blog/2008/04/09/american-idol-jesus-controversy /

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/1999931/posts

Jesus isn't offensive? Think again. Forget about discussions of Christ. The very NAME of Jesus is too offensive to mention.

"He spoke truth to power and was murdered for it."

Absolutely:

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. John 14:6

Read that above verse again. Not very PC, is it? Pretty exclusionary, isn't it? He doesn't leave it wide open for every belief system, either. The Gospels are offensive because Christ makes an absolute truth claim. That's precisely the opposite of the liberal, 'have it your way,' 'I'm OK and you're OK' philosophy.

"If the world hate you, ye know that it hated me before it hated you. If ye were of the world, the world would love his own: but because ye are not of the world, but I have chosen you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you." John 15:18,19

Those who take Christ at His Word and actually believe He is who He said He is are not deluded into buying the notion that Jesus is accepted by most. Like everything else pushed by satan, the airbrushed version is a counterfeit, not the Jesus of the Bible.

That's why C.S. Lewis is spot on. Either Jesus is who He says He is, or He is the devil of hell.

Herb

Your entire belief system is based on falsehoods.

Ignore Psalm 14:1 at your own peril.

Oooohhhhhhh I'm scared now!!!

Sorry Herb, but I don't fall for your weak minded and frivolous threats like your fellow travelers do.

Better read Galatians 6:7, then.

Herb

Its worth repeating: When Herb speaks, God cringes.


Every time Herb makes a post, he ruins the Bible experience for those who find good and joy in it.

Intimidation of fellow human beings is not what God has in mind.

So Jesus getting pissed and knocking over a few tables, in your mind, means that he approves of the wholesale slaughter of people in his name?

Herb, I don't care what Psalms or Galatians says. It's all fiction to me. I live my life on my own terms, and quite often, my terms are more "godly" than yours.

Herb makes the Bible UNfun as do most EXTREMIST RIGHT WING Evangelicals.

"It's all fiction to me."

That's not a problem with anyone here, except maybe Herb. However, remember that it is very old documented "fiction."

The Dead Sea Scrolls are widely acknowledged to be among the greatest archaeological treasures linking us to the ancient Middle East, and to the formative years of Judaism and Christianity. Over 200 biblical manuscripts are more than a thousand years older than any previously known copies of the Hebrew Bible. In addition, there are scrolls that appear to represent a distinct form of Judaism that did not survive the Roman destruction of the second Temple in 70 CE. These "sectarian scrolls" reveal a fascinating stage of transition between the ancient religion of the Bible and Rabbinic Judaism, as well as the faith that would become the world's largest, Christianity. Both of these traditions, in turn, influence Islam.

http://www.sdnhm.org/scrolls/dss_faqs.html

There's a lot more fiction in Sony's broadcast equipment maintenance and repair manuals than there is in The Bible.

It's all a question of personal relative value.

Well-stated, Andy_brown.

It all boils down to "Who is Jesus?"

C.S. Lewis, the former atheist, who was a prolific & astounding Christian apologist, in addition to being the author of 'The Chronicles of Narnia' and 'The Lion, The Witch And The Wardrobe,' and friend of fellow Christian J.R.R. Tolkien, stated it best:

“Christianity, if false, is of no importance, and if true, of infinite importance. The only thing it cannot be is moderately important."

Herb

CS Lewis is a man like you or me. What he says has no more or less bearing on anything than anyone else. So just because CS says it, doesn't validate it as fact or of importance.

Three of his best books are:

"Out Of The Hidden Planet", "Perelandra", and "That Hideous Strength". The social stereotypes are somewhat dated, but the thought provoking ideas remain strong. I recommend these books to anybody, religious or not. They are just great, again if dated.

If we are gonna go around and pitch this crap as important (and to many it is, so don't get me wrong there), then we might as well have the entire conversation.

The kind of advocacy C.S. Lewis is known for, is of the highest order. It appeals to the spiritual side of us, and it appeals to just that sense of wonder about both the natural world and that which may be about the spiritual one.

I happen to be a fan of his, for this reason. C.S. Lewis is not about control or dominance, but understanding and acceptance. He got where he did exactly that way. Nobody shamed him into faith, nobody scared him into faith. He ended up seeing that which resonated with him and took faith in that being true.

Anyone, who has read "That Hideous Strength" is well aware of how loathsome C.S. Lewis thought the military-industrial complex is, and of the potential harm it would cause. Reading that book today, and considering where this administration has taken us is a scary ride, I thought could never happen here in the US.

Supporting all of that as a means to some Godly end would be something he would absolutely deny.

Anyone reading "Perelandra" would also know he was a total believer in letting people make their own choices and follow their own personal path, whatever that may be. That path might be winding, it might be ugly, it might be shared, and it might be long and filled with doubt, but it is absolutely each persons path to walk for themselves.

Should that person reach out, struggling, looking for help, it should be granted, all quarter given, in the hopes they can get where they need to go, not to fill some agenda check box.

"Out of the Hidden Planet" also has a message in that we were essentially isolated, unable to see for our own faults. This too speaks to reasoned discourse, tolerance and a shared goal of greater understanding and compassion for one another that stands above lower issues of power and control.

If you fear a society that lacks God, you could do well by considering the ideas in this book.

There is a great deal we don't understand. The simple idea that it remains hidden from us because we are not ready to wield the knowledge is powerful and thought provoking. At the least, it's a worthy, if hard, look at our nature and relative youth as people.

C.S. Lewis would have easily said we are smart, creative and hard working, but we are young of mind, like that bright kid we all have to keep an eye on because he's smarter than he is wise.

I read these books with great interest, from time to time. C.S. Lewis is one of the greats, IMHO. He's worth the time spent.

Herb, I find it extremely frustrating that you would repeatedly quote somebody, who very clearly disagrees with you on so many things. It's actually an insult to the author, and I'm sorry to have to say it, but it's absolutely true.

C.S. would look at your body of archived work here and see somebody scared and ashamed and working double time to get affirmation anywhere it can be had!

You quite simply don't yet have what C.S. Lewis had at his death; namely, a faith that runs strong and true --this is a selfless thing that just is, not something that is built up and connected to lots of specific worldly goals and agendas.

Coupla things to consider:

(And this is in the context of talking about spiritual things)

-faith based on fear and shame is false. It's rooted in a denial of the self and the cultivation of unhealthy inhibition. Both of these things deny us our ability to live, love and be who we truly are --if you are religious, that person that God created us to be. If you are not, then it's just living a lie.

-failure to put our incomplete understanding of the world into proper context means projecting those attributes we deem worthy onto God, thus using God as a tool to validate our own shortcomings. This too is false.

We don't understand God. We can't by definition. We won't ever understand God and that's ok, because it's the path that counts. Walking it just and true to who we are is the absolute very best that can be expected. Anything else is a set of expectations doomed to failure and with that self-loathing and unhappiness.

-real faith is not something that is forced, but something that is accepted.

When we see somebody that has reached that point on their path, having walked past these things, it shines bright --apart from whatever talents or beauty or means or wealth they might have. It's just there, and it's true and it speaks without deliberate effort.

It just is. That's about as close to spiritual truth as we are ever going to get.

Anything else is contrived and is false, for the reasons I just gave. If a person cannot be true to themselves, then how can they be an example for others to follow? And this is where I clash with people so hard.

I can't follow, or be associated with people, who have such deep contradictions. Not a personal judgment here, just expressing where the differences lie, in the hopes that maybe there is common ground to be had somewhere, some time.

This, to me, is what it all boils down to. It's not Jesus, nor scraps of paper, bits of history here and there, but full on, selfless, honest, believe in spiritual things that resonates at the lowest levels.

If you've an axe to grind, and your faith is wrapped around and within it, that's a contrived thing, and it's a false thing. Really, the only people impacted by that kind of selling, and it is selling, not genuine advocacy or sharing or witness, whatever... are those with the same axes!

Whatever I believe or don't believe, I am absolutely convinced that is not what being spiritual is about. That's a human thing.

Humans, by the way, lie for one and only one reason --control of others. If it's contrived it's a lie at some level. We want to impact how people think, what they think, what they do, what they have, what they value, etc...

This stuff scares most people. This is why there is such a push back on matters of faith right now. Nobody wants to deny anybody else their chance to find their path and walk it. On the other hand, nobody wants to be forced down a path either, and that's where all the friction is at.

This silly characture (however you spell it) of God you present is a mocking of the highest order Herb. Give God a bit more respect than that ---and while you are at it, consider doing the same for your fellow contributors here as well.

We all will be better for it. Trust me.

Do me a favor Herb, why not go and read through those three? Send me an address, and I'll ship you my worn and well read copies for your entertainment. All you have to do is ask and 'ye shall receive!

We can meet for a drop, shake hands and book exchange too! No worries there. The nearest coffee shop, diner, whatever works for me too.

Vitalogy, you are absolutely and totally correct, BTW. And C.S. Lewis wouldn't have it any other way.

http://ecoversbyvircom.com/readingroom/members/files/Out-Of-The-Silent-Planet-EI .zip

...and you can get started right now.

Herb you're simply way off base when it comes to biblical interpretation. It's that simple.

Ouch.

"...faith based on fear and shame is false."

Psalms

2:11 Serve the Lord with fear and rejoice with trembling.

19:9 The fear of the Lord is pure, enduring forever. The ordinances of the Lord are sure and altogether righteous.

Leviticus

19:14 Do not curse the deaf or put a stumbling block in front of the blind, but fear your God. I am the Lord.

25:17 Do not take advantage of each other, but fear your God. I am the Lord your God.

Job

28:28 And he said to man, The fear of the Lord--that is wisdom, and to shun evil is understanding.

http://www.feargod.net/verses.php

I didn't say fear or shame Herb, I said fear AND shame. There is a clear difference, otherwise only one word would be necessary.

http://www.acts17-11.com/shame.html

1 Corinthians 15:34 "Wake from this drunken fit; live righteous lives, and cease to sin; for some have no knowledge of God: I speak thus in order to move you to shame."

1 Corinthians 6:5 "I say this to put you to shame..."

Ezekiel 16:63 "..that you may remember and be ashamed..."

"C.S. would look at your (Herb) body of archived work here and see somebody scared and ashamed and working double time to get affirmation anywhere it can be had!"

Double Ouch.

And might I add a *ploink* (am I doing that right?)

Yeah?

I can find all sorts of ugly words in the Bible too.

If I was created, my creator knew the score, therefore shame comes from within, and is the product of greater understanding and a desire to improve.

That's walking the path. And feeling ashamed because there is a reason for it is normal. It's an incentive to improve and be better.

To be shamed is a control thing and any belief that comes from that, without first having reached self-acceptance, is false.

Sorry, but I'm never, ever going to subscribe to any belief system that first requires that I feel bad about who I am. It's not healthy.

The beauty is that I simply don't have to.

Buy into that crap all you want. It's your call, your path, your life.

"C.S. would look at your (Herb) body of archived work here and see somebody scared and ashamed.."

Look. You're smarter than that.

Among dozens of verses noted, you're going to continue to state that fear and shame are not seen as important in the Bible? You've got a pride problem, as we all do...only you don't see it. You worship the intellect. Problem is, you can't out-smart the God who created you.

A primary impetus for any substantive change is dissatisfaction with the status quo. If you truly believe that you cannot improve, you are in a sad state.

God wants us all to get rid of our pride, which cometh before a fall. Re-read your own posts. They're chock full of self-righteousness indignation at the mere thought of needing to change. Unless you're perfect, yes you need to change. We all do.

But relax. It's not about Herb, because I'm just as flawed as anyone else. But whilst adrift and drowning in stormy seas, at least I'm wise enough to grab a life preserver.

So don't worry. You guys won't be held accountable before Herb, but before the Almighty.

Herb

Herb- Bonhoeffer, CS Lewis and even Jesus would take issue with your narrowed view of scriptures.

But since you have conveniently narrowed their perspectives and then try and play the "Humble Herb" card it simply doesn't wash.

"...narrowed view of scriptures."

Look.

There's tons of Scripture on each topic mentioned. And it all points in one direction.

God is a jealous God.
He wants us to fear Him, whilst using shame to get our attention and change.
God loves us too much to leave us the way we are.

Ignore if you wish.
If you're mad at it, don't blame me. I didn't write it.

It's the Gospel truth.

Herb

Well, let's try it this way. I did say we should have the entire conversation right? So let's do that.

What happens when an otherwise healthy person hears "you should be ashamed", or "you should fear"?

They ask "Why?".

That's what my posts are filled with. It's not unhealthy pride at all. It's more like wanting to be sure fear and shame are actually warranted and that those reasons are defensible.

Simply accepting fear or shame, because others do, is not true to ourselves. Done often enough, it can be a very unhealthy thing, leaving somebody unable to reason well and leaving them inhibited and unable to exercise their talents, or just live.

Nobody needs to ever go there, period. They might want to, and that's ok, but there should be no forcing them there. That's just control and dominance over others.

Those things might be valuable human things, but they sure as heck are not spiritual ones.

Put quite simply, a healthy person, at peace with themselves, needs a solid reason to change. When that reason exists, they then CHOOSE to make that change and they are motivated by their greater understanding.

From there, it's game on!

A rational person is going to weigh the information presented and apply a few sanity tests. Those could be core reasoning tests, for example. If it's circular, false comparison, non sequitor, etc... that's not solid enough. Time to just move on.

This is why the deep contradictions don't work for me, BTW.

Could be simple propaganda too. We all know those as the 7 or so core means we use to sell things right? Bandwagon (fear it because we fear it and you like us and value us), etc...

Maybe it's solid from a reasoning standpoint, and if so, then it's worth acting on. Maybe it's incomplete, but reasoned well, so then it becomes a value judgement. Here it's very grey. It all depends on the kind of person we are talking about. Some need spiritual answers more than others and that need carries value.

Other things can happen too. Shock and awe comes to mind. Really, this is a false comparison, but it's often effective with people. Show them something so horrible that they are shocked into giving related things greater weight than they would otherwise.

That's the power of God, you are going to eternal hell, you will get yours in the end, fire and brimstone crap. That does not work for me, simply because it's not a known end, meaning it has little overall value.

(which is why we talk about this stiff as faith)

It's possible to catch people early too. Perhaps they can be taught the fear early on, making it a deep part of themselves. That is exactly what was done with me as a kid. Damn, it made for some very rough 20's. I'll push back on that one every time. It's too harmful. This is effective though. Done well, you've got somebody who has defined themselves in terms of their own dogma.

That's a circular self-definition and I don't know what else to say about that, other than it's not a true one.

So let's get back to the "why?" then. When somebody asks "why?", that's an opening! It's a time when they trust you enough to open their mind a little and let somebody else poke a coupla things into the mix for their consideration and hopefully enlightenment.

This is where respect for another is paramount. Say something really great gets dropped in there. The other person is then appreciative! It's a good thing and maybe worth a greater exchange! That's healthy advocacy. We all are better for it.

There is also the unknown thing. This is a lot like when somebody smells something interesting. What do they do? They share it of course! "Here, smell this thing? What do you think? Is it a turd?" People who trust one another do this with stuff they can't process fully, so they ask for help before committing to it.

On the other hand, maybe just flat out drop a turd in. Now the whole thing smells bad. It lingers too, just like the smell of turds does. Now the other person is not so appreciative. Cleaning up turds is a lot of work and it's not pleasurable and it's extra work, largely because somebody else dropped the turd!

(and I love turd analogies)

Posting up a bunch of Bible verses, taken out of context, is a freaking turd Herb. It smells bad, and nobody wants to clean it up.

Do this often enough, and it works just like carrying turds around does. The whole package begins to smell, and that closes others off, when they would otherwise be open to discussion.

And that's forcing shame and fear, put another way, just so we can keep the matter of pride and unwillingness to change in perspective.

"Mad at God?"

Who in the hell here is mad at God? Nobody!

(Unless you need a temporary target for your pain, hurt, or loss)

However, I wouldn't be the least bit surprised if God is "mad" at you. Or at least feels very, very sorry for you and your twisted views.

I'll take Chris's words and excellent and educated view-points any day over yours. Thankfully, I don't know YOUR twisted version of God.

KSKD 9:05 Fear the turd, for it smells.

06 A well developed turd can easily be sensed before it is seen.

07 A partially realized turd, might not really be a turd; instead, it could be something tainted by a turd

08 in this dilemma, we work together to identify the turd, and end up clean for our efforts.

09 a poorly managed turd is a burden onto others

10 Carry the turd and ye shall be known by the turd.

Herb, my God is not found in a book written long after the departure of his son, but in my soul.

I loved Bible stories as a child, but that is all they were — stories, written by mortal men.

The God of my soul has been strong with me since the night I was driving through a fog with sight limited to just a few feet. I was scared and prayed God would protect me. Suddenly a lighted spot opened up in the sky and a cross was floating.

Turns out is was a church up ahead, where I parked until the fog lifted.

That is the message I got from God. It did not come from a "history" book.

It is the same God that has allowed me to accept all men and women as equal,no matter their creed, color, or even how they feel about me.

That is the same God that will always be there for me, even if I do not hold to every line of that history book, a book I might add that can be read differently, depending on what you want to found.

That is the ultimate strength of that book, it has something for every belief, if you parse it to what you want to see in it.

Herb, when the Rapture comes, you may be left behind, because you do not have true love in your heart for everyone.

Herb's "pity the poor Christian in America" diatribe makes perfect sense after reading this article by Tim Wise. Actually, it explains almost everything about Herb, and why most of his arguments are untenable.

Hey, I had to write something else. This is why I entertain these things.

Now, it's another turd thing to start, but bear with me...

The turd is self-evident. No question. We see the turd and say, "that's a turd". Where the turd came from, what kind of turd it is, etc... are non-issues. It's just a turd and we all know how turds work.

Bearing a witness is a phrase that carries special meaning for me. It's a brand of propaganda that's set apart from the usual suspects, bandwagon, cherry picking, card stacking, etc...

When we see somebody, whose faith is self-evident, it's a lot like the turd. We see them and say, that's a believer --a spiritual person. What their faith is, where it came from, etc... are non-issues, just like they are for the turd.

This is again, like I wrote above, the closest thing we can get to spiritual truth. When we see it, we ask about it, and often want to share it in a fashion exactly opposite to the turd.

It just smells good, like a nice pie smells good.

That's it, just thought it was worth sharing.

Herb-

Here's my take on scripture. The central theme is Jesus. All scripture points to this main theme. Everything else is really secondary.

You have tried to justify war and violence by putting a sword in Jesus' hands and then having him use it against somebody. You're clearly out of your element to think beyond your literally interpretation.

The sword is metaphorical yet you will justify your position by having Christ actually strike someone. Sorry bro-that's bad theology. Nowhere in scripture do you find Jesus striking another human with a sword.

Christ's anger in the temple is Holy anger and for good reason. Jesus is pissed off!! What is sacred ground has been used for corporate greed and ultimately hurting the poor.... the very people Jesus has come to help.

Yet you seem to again use this scene to justify violence. HOW DARE YOU!!! The fear of God is not the kind of fear you have when you're car is spinning out of control on an icy freeway going 60 mph. The meaning of fear in scripture is more of a reverence.... respect for the Almighty. Not soiling your pants fear.

YOU are the fearful one Herb. YOU are the one somewhere in your life that has some deep shame to deal with. YOU are the one who needs to truly seek the heart of Jesus. And to be honest I believe you have.... but you still allow fear to run you away from Christ's love into this abyss a one size fits all Christianity.

It's time to grow in your faith Herb.

"Re-read your own posts. They're chock full of self-righteousness indignation at the mere thought of needing to change."

You should take your own advice.

Psalm 139 (The Message)
Investigate my life, O God, find out everything about me; Cross-examine and test me, get a clear picture of what I'm about; See for yourself whether I've done anything wrong—then guide me on the road to eternal life.

Vitalogy,Missing_kskd,Trixter,Herb...we can all take advise from The Word.

I was disappointed, that this thread got so far off track. It was developing into an interesting discussion involving individual rights vs group rights vs state vs federal rights.

And what happens when they intrude on each other.

Well we are some kind of wild bunch for sure Nwokie. My apologies if I was apart of the hijack.

We can go back!

What's interesting Nwokie?

"we can all take advise from The Word."

With all due respect, Broadway, I don't find advice from "the Word" to be worthy of making decisions in my life. I think some of it is terrible advice and is not relevent to our modern world.

KSKD 9:05 vs 11: A fart is a turd honking for the right of way!

Long Live the Turd!

http://www.i-am-bored.com/bored_link.cfm?link_id=9775

Skybill, what would you have done if the hospital had refused to let your unwed, underage daughter in to have her baby, because they considered her a whore or a slut? You likely would have sued?

Regarding Herb, et al,

---

quote:

... my brothers, remain faithful to the earth, and do not believe those who speak to you of otherworldly hopes! Poison-mixers are they, whether they know it or not. Despisers of life are they, decaying and poisoned themselves, of whom the earth is weary: so let them go!"

---

Skybill, what would you have done if the hospital had refused to let your unwed, underage daughter in to have her baby, because they considered her a whore or a slut? You likely would have sued?

Most hospitals receive some public (tax) funding so this wouldn't apply to them.

The discussion is (was) about private businesses.

So why should not public businesses have the same right as private businesses, especially since all hospitals are private.

Private businesses are tax supported with the tax writeoffs they get.

I think you are avoiding my question because you have no answer for it.

"...remain faithful to the earth..."

Classic paganism. Worshipping the created, rather than the Creator.

Herb

So why not just let them worship what they want to worship? How does it effect your relationship with your God?

"So why not just let them worship what they want to worship?"

It's a free country. Others are free to promote their beliefs. Does that mean Christians must check their faith at the door?

You'll find your answer with the Great Commission:

http://www.allaboutjesuschrist.org/the-great-commission.htm

I think you are avoiding my question because you have no answer for it.

Nope.

It's just like a private Christian School that can refuse to hire someone that does not hold to their beliefs.

But as soon as they start getting government funding they have to follow all the government mandates.

Same as a government contractor, they have all kinds of "special" guidelines they have to follow because they are doing business with the government.

A private business should be able to serve whomever they choose without the government interfering.

So Bill, you're okay with blatant discrimination if a private business owner decides he doesn't want to employ an unwed mother? Yes or no?

As a landlord, are you okay with me not renting to your daughter who is an unwed mother? I'm a private individual, it's my home and my property, and I don't get government funding as a landlord. Can I tell your daughter she need not apply? Yes or no?

Yes and Yes.

Yes #1. If it's my business and I don't want to hire someone for any reason it should be my right to do so.

That being said, if that is how I choose to run my business, I'm sure it would carry over into other aspects of the business and in time my customers would hear about it and most likely stop patronizing my establishment. The end result could be a loss of the entire business if enough people stopped buying from me.

Yes #2. Just like I can choose to not rent to someone who has pets or is a smoker, I should be able to not rent to someone for any reason.

So you fully support discrimination based on age, sex, color, religion, etc for both employment and housing. Yet another so-called christian certainly not embracing christian values. However, I'll give you credit for being crystal clear whereas Herb slithers around the bush because he's afraid to admit he believes in discrimination.

"Yet another so-called christian certainly not embracing christian values."

Guess again.

"Anyone who goes too far and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God; the one who abides in the teaching, he has both the Father and the Son.

If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house, and do not give him a greeting..." II John 1:9-10

I personally don't believe in discrimination.

I do believe a PRIVATE business owner should have the right to run his/her business however they want as long as they are not doing/producing something illegal.

As I mention above, if they choose to run their business that way, it will bite them in the end and soon they'll be out of business.

So who is John talking too Herb? Who was his audience and what kind of culture and societal norms were going on at the time of John's writing this passage.

Once you can answer those questions and for that matter on any scriptures you post, then we can have a truly theological discussion and discourse.

I can prove you wrong with as many equal scripture references Herb (and I have already done on many occasions). But what good is it? Impressing ourselves that we can quote from the bible?

It's all about the heart bro....I really do question where you heart is on many matters concerning scripture.

Bill, don't kid yourself. You wholeheartedly support the right of any businessperson to discrminate for whatever reason they can name. And if you think this kind of business practice hurts the company, I've got a used car from New Orleans to sell you for a good price.

" Does that mean Christians must check their faith at the door? "

It depends on what " door " you are talking about - but yes. Along with everyone else. Yes.

Don't you believe that things would be better if everyone did that? I do.

I loved Bible College. I was quite fortunate to even get to go on all sorts of levels. I learned a LOT about people AND God. But that doesn't make me righteous or even right. You come from a place of fear and stop at a place of fear. You lose me when that's all you offer. But hey, like you say, it's a free country. Knock yourself out.

Chris.

When non-Christians take issue with how Christians should behave, they often have a one-dimensional view and it's 'basically treat me nice as I mock your beliefs.'

We're not always told to turn the other cheek, hence Christ's mentioning to carry a sword, his tossing the bad guys out of the temple and the Scripture to not entertain those exhibiting certain behaviours.

Jesus was not ham-fisted with those who were truly hurting, but told sinners they needed to repent. We can both agree our Lord was hardest on hard-hearted religious leaders and the proud of all stripes.

Herb

Bill, don't kid yourself. You wholeheartedly support the right of any businessperson to discrminate for whatever reason they can name.

Yes. That's exactly what I said. I support the RIGHT of the business person to run his business his way.

And if you think this kind of business practice hurts the company, I've got a used car from New Orleans to sell you for a good price.

What I said concerning this was that if the business owner did participate in discrimination, then it would most likely carry over into other aspects of his business. That's what would come back to haunt him.

If he's dishonest in one part of his business, he'll be dishonest in other parts too.

Herb-

Lets look at who Jesus hung out with. Pretty much the non-believers of his day...yep those sinners. Read Luke 4:18 "The Spirit of the Lord is on me, because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to proclaim freedom for the prisoners and recovery of sight for the blind, to release the oppressed."

That was Jesus' mission statement right out of the Old Testament. How you get a sword swinging Messiah out of that is beyond me?

Look at the 12 Disciples. Matthew a tax collector thoroughly hated in that culture and more than likely took taxes from some of the other Disciples, now is an equal in Jesus' eyes with Peter, James and John.

Jesus has the ability bridge believers and non-believers. However you're still missing the point of Jesus and the sword. Again...it's not a real sword. You want to so much in your heart to see Jesus coming up over the hill with sword in hand killing the bad guys. Cowboy theology all the way.

Hardly.

I just call 'em as I see 'em.

But it seems you appear to downplay our Saviour's extolling the need to repent.

He didn't play around with sin. He forgave, to be certain. But He also pointed out where sinners needed to change. Paul did as well.

But when the need to change is pointed out, Katy bar the door. That's when the long knives come out, for no one wants to be convicted of their own sin. I know I don't.

It has always been thus....Look what they did to Jesus, Peter and John the Baptist. Each one was murdered for the sake of proclaiming a Gospel that was not soft-pedaled.

So when non-believers buy into a namby-pamby, PC, limp-wristed, luke warm Gospel, I'm the bad guy for pointing out that God hates sin and that He provided atonement...but it's not a free ride. Be either hot or cold, or He'll spew you out of His mouth.

Change is the order of the day. And change is hard. That's why so many like the wimpy Jesus, who is not actually Jesus at all, but a caricature.

To paraphrase Martin Luther:

Chris, if I'm wrong, show me in the Bible. Otherwise, here I stand...I can do no other.

Herb Luther

Speaking of caricatures of Jesus - you know that he wasn't white, right?

The fact that Herb is signing his name with any part of Dr. King's attached is deeply disturbing to me.

Herb, with all due respect ... you only wish to be a tiny fraction of the human being Dr. King was.

Actually Brian, Herb was talking about the reformer Martin Luther (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Martin_Luther) not Martin Luther King Jr. whom he was named after.

I have never ever posted anything that would be seen as a namby-pamby Jesus. You don't talk about dying on a cross then end up doing so for the sake of others and can be consider pamby.

However-you do over look the heart and soul of Jesus in favor of what people were looking for in a messiah in Jesus's day. For sure Jesus met people where they are at and not where he wanted them to be. Once you experience Jesus in a real way you are changed. How that manifests itself is different for all of us.

Jesus comes to us with humble beginnings, then chooses a ragtag time group of Disciples, healing on the sabbath, giving women respect and dignity, throwing out the money grubbers in the temple....all done without a sword in his hand.

Wikipediacovers the "sword of Christ" controversy well. I thought the following sidebar was interesting and illuminating, considering the multiple translations and interpretations the Bible has endured over the years:

The Book of Kells, a Celtic illuminated manuscript copy of the Gospels, erroneously uses the word “gaudium” meaning “joy” rather than “gladium,” which means “sword” -- rendering the verse in translation: “I came not [only] to bring peace, but joy”.

Well Bill, it's a good thing the law agrees with me rather than you on the subject of discrimination. Not only is it illegal, it's also immoral.

Thanks Ed for that translation. Sometimes the Greek and Hebrew translations can be tricky to dissect because like many languages there are subtleties in pronunciation and punctuation.

Those that take a more literalist read on the bible fail to recognize those subtle differences, which can change an entire meaning of a passage.

Vitalogy, Let me ask you a hypothetical question.

Scenario: You are 150% against abortion. More so than those on this board that are against it, combined.

You own a building.

Dr. Welby and Dr. Kildare come to you and want to lease your building to open an abortion clinic.

Should you be forced to lease it to them? If so why?

While waiting for Vitalogy...

Operating a business does require the use of the public commons right? That's the roads, government, currency, courts, etc...

If the owner wants to dip into the pool of prospective clients, who exist in the commons, they then must abide by the rules of the commons.

Without those rules, dealing with that pool of prospective clients would be a lot tougher (no law, infrastructure, police, etc...), and the pool would very likely be smaller.

The law says we are all equal under it, period. That's everybody.

Corporations are people too. Sad, but true. So, they've got the same rights and responsibilities as everybody else has.

**The discriminatory building owner would very likely not make public offers and would work through private agents instead. Instead of risking a questionable acceptance, each deal is negotiated before the formal offer and acceptance process is entered into.

IANAL, but that seems to be the norm I've seen.

There is a cost for everything. Agents are spendy, well good ones are. So is a risky tenant! pay up front for stability during the term, or pay later. Maybe get lucky and not pay much at all and find a happy tenant too.

All a gamble. How much is the risk worth?

Herb sez: "I just call 'em as I see 'em."

So do I. I think you're some kind of selfish jerk-clown ruining the Bible experience for everyone else.

"Should you be forced to lease it to them? If so why?"

If the building is zoned for a medical clinic, you can not refuse them based on the specialty they wish to offer. It's against the law. It's the old strip club story under a different disguise.

The local laws can not override constitutional rights. Many cities have tried and failed to eliminate strip clubs and have failed every time. They can regulate behavior and presentation to some extent, and they can rezone and try and chase those businesses they feel are undesirable to the outskirts of town, but you can't pass a law that says "NO" and have it stand up against the Constitutional right to as you put it "be a capitalist."

No matter how unpleasant the building owner might find it.

Again, the building owner can demand a long term expensive contract or utilize other uncomfortable leasing tactics, all legal, to chase a prospective customer away, but you can't say no based on a personal belief that a business like that shouldn't be allowed. Work to change the law, but don't break it.

No you can't be forced to lease a building to a doctor who performs abortions. Doctors, or specialities aren't a protected class. There was a case involving just that in Kansas City a few years ago, a building owner refused to renew leases for abortion clinics.

Chris, that is mighty kind of you, but I do not fancy myself a preacher. I do study, respect and celebrate the many people who have sought to bring peace and justice to the world. I think that the concept that only one person in history could be a voice for that change is counterproductive, counterintuitive and divisive. Every generation has had leaders stand up for the powerless.

The Dalai Lama spoke yesterday at the University of Washington and said many of the same things as the scores of great men and women before him. Like so many others, including Jesus, he is celebrated as a holy man, but he speaks less about dogma and more about non-violence, respect, justice and compassion. While I believe in my own way, there is room for everybody if the way and the goal is cut from the same positive cloth. The best and worst parts of humanity are universal.

Many other thoughtful folks have addressed much of the conversation since my post, and I agree wholeheartedly with KSKD regarding C.S. Lewis. I will leave it at that for now.

"For sure Jesus met people where they are at and not where he wanted them to be. Once you experience Jesus in a real way you are changed. How that manifests itself is different for all of us."

Agreed.

Herb

Pets and smokers.

Those are choices anyone can make. Each of us has control over our state of having pets, or of being a smoker.

This kind of discrimination is ok, because it's something we all have control over.

Discriminating against somebody who is gay, or black, or a woman, as examples, is not ok. As people we do not have control over these things. They just are.

If we permit that kind of discrimination then we also deny people their freedom to grow, prosper, etc...

And as a business owner we do have tools to deal with customers / clients we would rather not deal with. We can set price, terms, claim insufficient capacity, etc...

Done against classes of people, repeatedly is wrong. Might get caught too, depending on who and what the business is.

There is some slack in these things to allow for personal clashes.

Actually, I agree with kskd, mostly here, the one small exception I think, should be if renting out a room in your house, or an attached single occupancy dwelling. Then you should have a little more lee way.

Bill, to answer your question, if I was against abortion, I'm not sure how I would handle your hypothetical, as I'm not sure on the laws in place. But, discrimination based on sex, religion, age, etc is not the same thing as discrimination against certain sectors of business. What I can tell you is that if I was in that position and didn't want them as a tenant, I'd work within the law to avoid having to lease with them rather than just telling them I disagree with their line of work and won't allow them to lease.

Vitalogy, I'm with you.

I'd make the rent or deposit or conditions so extreme that they would go elsewhere. The same thing I'd do if as in your scenarios I didn't want to rent to an unwed mother.

The whole thing that started this could have been avoided had the business owners simply said that they were booked that weekend or made their prices so high that the couple would go elsewhere.

However, I suspect that the couple may (I'm guessing) have chose this photographer knowing they were Christians and to make a point. The photographers probably tried to make a point in return.

Bad on both of them!

When I got married almost 5 years ago, I contacted no less than 20 photographers before I found one that was in our desired price range AND available that day. So, while I doubt that the lesbian couple chose this photographer solely to challenge their "christian beliefs" (I prefer the term bigoted beliefs, because that's what they are), I can see why they were so peeved and decided to pursue legal action. If I was refused service because of my blonde hair or the fact that I'm tall, I'd make sure to make life difficult for whomever did that to me, and I'll bet you would to Bill.

Whether or not the photographers handled the refusal properly really isn't the issue. The issue is whether it's legal to refuse someone services because of race, religion, sex, age, etc. I think it's wrong, both legally and morally. The nature of someone's business, like an abortion doctor or porn shop, is a completely different ball of wax.

If they want to discriminate because your tall, or blond, they have the legal right, not moral, but legal.

Or if they want to discriminate against ugly people, whatever their definition of that is.

Its only sex, race, religion, ethnic background, handicaped, military service and in some areas sexual orientation, or sexual identity (cross dressers). That are legally protected.

Had the photographers simply stated they were unavailable on that date, (you don't have to give an actual reason why you're unavailable) then this would have probably gone away. Furthermore giving the couple a list of other photographers to contact would at least been good customer service.

But the moment you state why you're unavailable and verbalize your discrimination then it does become a legal matter in my view.

What he should have done, is gone and taken the pictures, when he got his business license, he took on the obligation to follow all laws.