http://www.oregonlive.com/politics/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/12061563101852 80.xml&coll=7

I sure hope the parents AND church are held accountable.

They probably won't be...this has been going on for how-many-years-now, and nobody ever does anything about these wacko child abusers.

Maybe the people who lived on the same dead-end street should've called the cops or social services if they had 100 cars parked on their street every night. duh.

God will heal the child, and if he dies, its God's will.

I'll bet Herb agrees with that!

Not that I enjoy speaking for Herb but I think he will find this disturbing and the parents negligent.

It's a human rights violation, and is criminal.

People who choose to rely on their conviction for healing are within their right to do so.

This is an adult choice. Minors are not developed enough to understand the implications. Either we treat kids like kids, or we don't. There isn't any picking and choosing.

Not old enough to drink? Well, then not old enough to follow this path.

I too agree that the church needs to be held accountable. Everybody in that building knows the line between kid and adult; therefore, they all share responsibility for the kids death.

Those people may consider their faith the highest authority, but that's not known to be true. Barring that truth, the law then applies and every one of them knows it.

This isn't willful ignorance. It's beyond that --well beyond that.

I have never understood why Doctors and their respective gifts are dismissed by those of that kind of faith.

God offers actual tangible healing powers within doctors ( to use some vernacular that they may understand ) and somehow that's a sin to use them for healing? Jesus! - literally. Why stop there? Why not deny food or shelter or clothing?

*queue up abortion hijack*

Agreed! You can't have it both ways, cherry-picking along the way: there's no grey area.

If it's God's will the child falls ill and/or dies, why try to circumvent that with all the vigils and fervent prayer? Is this considered a failure? Whose?

And isn't it just as much God's will that we have all this wonderful technology that saves lives, like MEDICINE?

I will never understand this, much as I have tried.

Yeah, it's a freaking hard one.

Might as well walk around celebrating God's will! Fuck it. Every day is just bliss!

No worries, just worship! What happens happens.

If you have issues with that, then pray until you feel better about it.

...even that's God's will, which leads back to why worry?

Madness!

I can recall watching a member of this church being interviewed on television several years ago, wearing eyeglasses. Unless he walked into a drug store and bought a pair of the rack, eyeglasses are prescribed by an optician or optometrist, both medical professionals.

I respect a person’s right to practice their religious faith, but to deny a child access to medical care is not only immoral, but criminal. The parents of this child should be held criminally responsible for the death of this child, period.

And do they actually believe that they will not get into Heaven if they seek medical attention? Is that the big fear?

And what is their " success " rate among children facing life-threatening issues? It's at least X wins - 22 losses.

God must want an inordinate amount of their children to die. Gee, you'd think they'd take that as a sign or something.

Wonder what happens to members in emergency situations? Lose a body part at work? Complications during childbirth? Car accident? Appendicitis? Heart attack?

They had plenty of time to decide to save this child and others like her (and chose not to)...what about when seconds really make the difference?

Do they carry DNR instructions in case they are not able to refuse treatment in an emergency? I can see the headlines now: "Church member sues hospital for saving life"

This all gets back to literal interpretation of certain bible passages.

Yes. It does. Which I am willing to bet they don't do on as many counts as they like to think. Which makes it all that more absurd.

I don't pretend to know the mind of their God. But I HAVE to lean towards he would have preferred those kids lived. But hey - freewill, eh?

So to them I say " Good luck. You're gonna need it."

While this isn't a laughing matter, here goes.

There's a horrible rainstorm, and the water is rising fast, an older woman is trapped in her house, when a state trooper makes it up to her door, and offers to move her to higher ground. She replies, the Lord will take care of me. So the trooper leaves, a few hours later, the water is up to the 2nd floor of the house, and a boat goes up to the house offering to save the woman, she replies, thank you, but the Lord will save me. A few hours later, the water is up to the roof, and the lady is on the roof, when a helicpter comes buy, and drops the woman a line, she refuses, yelling, the Lord will save me. a little later, the water is over the house, and the lady drowns. When she gets to heavon, she sees God, and asks, Lord, I have been faithful all my life, why didn't you save me?

The Lord replies, What you talking about woman? I sent a trooper, a boat and a helicopter.

I thought if that EXACT same joke when typing out what I typed.

I believe that prayer helps and can even heal.

I'm also realistic enough to know that maybe the answer to a prayer might just be the doctor with the proper diagnosis and treatment to heal you.

God gives everyone "gifts" (not presents, talents). A doctor has been given the gift of healing. Use it!!


I think the parents should be held accountable for withholding treatment, but on the other hand that could set some dangerous precedents regarding religious freedoms.

It's a tough call, but personally, I think they should have taken the kid to a doctor.

I don't think it's all that tough to call where kids are involved. Some kids will do it because their loving parents and support group will tell them to do it.

That's not being developed well enough to make their own choices.

Lots of kids end up in a different church or religion when they grow up. These kids didn't get that chance.

the adults may feel their freedom is being infringed on, having to involve technical medicine for their kids. This is their issue confusing their choices with those the kids have yet to really make.

It seems simple to me. Until the kids are old enough to make their own decisions, they should be protected by law.

They are in most other instances. Baby car seats, molestation, physical abuse, education, drugs and alcohol. Why should we be squeamish about protecting them from wacko parents on religious issues. What if the parents were like the ancient Mayans and wanted to sacrifice them at an alter. Would we allow that on religious grounds.

Sadly, that would depend on how powerful their lobby was.

Maybe not completely.

Over a very long time span, they could pack courts and win decisions and establish case law. That is one hell of an effort, and it takes numbers. Look at the pro-life people for an example of how that all goes.

In the shorter term, court challenges would very likely nip that in the bud.

I see your point though. It's more valid than any of us want it to be.

Gee, I better not eat, sleep or use the restroom either. If God wanted me nourished and rested, he'd "make it so". By the same logic, man should never make an effort towards anything at all, lest he thwart the will of God!

Why does religion enjoy such protections? Why are we afraid to declare someone's beliefs as being bad for society? In this case, the beliefs are detrimental to the LIFE OF A CHILD! It’s insane, and it should be considered negligent homicide.

"Over a very long time span, they could pack courts and win decisions and establish case law. That is one hell of an effort, and it takes numbers. Look at the pro-life people for an example of how that all goes."

Yeah right, because it's a small, freakish minority who are against abortion, and the courts must be strategically "packed" to advance the anti legalized-abortion cause. It's NOT the same thing. Geez, step out of the Portland political bubble sometime and you'll see abortion is not exactly a "settled" issue in the minds of a lot of Americans. BTW, I'm sorry this became a discussion about abortion, but Missing_kskd had to equate the abortion issue with this. I guess he couldn't resist an oportunity to compare religious extremists with mainstream people of faith on Easter morning.

Hey, that was not a bad statement!

My greater point was that it takes a very significant and sustained effort to make those kinds of changes. I'm giving credit where credit is due to the pro-life movement.

It's a solid movement that got some stuff done. Worrying about some really extreme minority religious group accomplishing the same is a non-worry, and the pro-life efforts are a shining example of exactly why.

Opinions on the merits of their efforts are for other threads. As a movement to achieve core change, they present one of the most successful case studies in how that is done.

Abortion has nothing to do with it. It's the mechanics that are relevant here.

These parents are guilty of murder, and so is the church. The only reason this church gets a pass, is because it's labeled as a "christian" church. These parent should go to jail, and the church should be boarded up.

"church should be boarded up."

According to a pope, torched, with a stake driven through the front door.

A pope? Okay, but not for heresy, for behavior that killed a child!

I just saw a report on KATU News on this story reported by Dan Tilkon. It was interesting to hear from Dr. Larry Lewman MD, former Oregon State Medical Examiner. Dr. Lewman said that just prior to the change in the law regarding this matter, three women and their new born babies, all members of the Oregon City church in question suffered terrible deaths due to an illness nearly unheard of since the early days of the 20th century. He said that had these women been treated during their pregnancies by medical professionals, the likelihood of their deaths and the deaths of their new born children was almost nonexistent.

It all seems criminal.

It is criminal when children die due the parents denying them care. It's murder by child abuse. You shake a baby to death, you go to jail. You deny a kid life saving care and it's a religious right?

Hmmm....

That's just as ugly as abortion is where rights are concerned. Choice indeed. Something to ponder.

So much for church growth efforts when all the kids are dying off. That's the future of any church. If they cant' get that...??? These people are misreading the Bible...come on...Luke was a Physician. Faith without works is dead...James 2.

Pastor Dale Ebel and the Crossroads Community Church needs to impress God and come down hard on dimwit churches killing kids in the name of God. How about it Dale?

Members of faith healing church voluntarily surrender to police after being charged with manslaughter:

http://www.katu.com/news/17118866.html

Ahh . . . Dale Ebers is leaving it to the police to do the dirty work. Well, I suppose that's okay because that is what taxes are for. . . Wait a sec, the Church isn't paying any taxes.

Whats the point of this large church and huge food court if they aren't going to do some good on behalf of God?

Questions, questions, but never answers. All the more reason to keep God out of our children's health.

I see Herb is DEAD quiet on this. God's people killing 15-months post born babies. Where's the outrage?

Hmm?

I wonder if they are adamantly anti-abortion in this cult like church? Save the cells but kill the living child that's already on earth?

Herb???

Bump. Answer this question Herb:

Does the bible call for letting 15 month old babies die when medical help is available?

Yes or no.

No "if they're found guilty, then they're guilty" BS avoidance answers.

Bible says to let them die if God doesn't help, Yes or no?

Does the Bible call for letting 15 month old babies die??

But 15 weeks isn't okay?

After their out I guess they're on their own in Herb's book?

From a related thread:

"Herb, please provide us with your opinion on the parents charged in the death of their child DUE TO NEGLECT (or as they defend their behavior, prayer.)"

Just like those who commit violence against abortion providers, I believe the parents in that case need to be given due process in court for the charges made against them.

If they are found guilty, then they should pay the penalty.

Matthew 22:21

Herb

Herb, either you are avoiding answering the question, or you truly have no opinion about this topic.

If the former, it is a dodge for you to defer to 'the courts'. The question clearly asks for your opinion. If YOU were the jury or the judge, what would your decision be given the available evidence?

If the latter, then tell me - what have you done with the real Herb?

That is because Herb supports courts for Christian criminals and assassination of abortion doctors by crazy Christians with guns.

"The question clearly asks for your opinion."

Fair enough.

While I firmly believe in the power of prayer, it's important to realize that Doctors who heal, not murder, are a gift from God.

Nwokie largely summed up my view in a related thread:

"I think the parents should be prosecuted, just as parents* that kill a viable baby before its born."

*I would supplant 'doctor-murderer' here. The one who pays such an evil-doer is frequently like one paying a hit-man. But I would be far more lenient with the woman who experienced the abortion for many reasons.

She's the one who is left to deal with the consequences of post-abortion truama. In addition, pregnant women are often coerced into abortion by a dastardly boyFIEND, or by 'scammed parenthood' who profits, with scads of blood money.

Herb

Let me see if I understand this correctly, "The one who pays such an evil-doer is frequently like one paying a hit-man."

This would then apply to the leaders of that Church. They're taking donations and using the proceeds to tell their congregation not to have doctors heal their child.

This just in: Prayer provides nothing towards healing.

http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/04/060403133554.htm

And, it sounds like ole Herb supports these christian nuts whilst they happily murder their children in the name of their crazy god. Pathetic. The parents should be in jail and the church shut down and boarded up.

Another reason not to go to church.

And, it sounds like ole Herb supports these christian nuts whilst they happily murder their children in the name of their crazy god.

Probably....

The burden should be on other christian churches in the area to set them straight, NOT the government, but alas, they sit on their hands . . .

Not a word from Dale Ebers or the pdxradio forum troll.

>>Another reason not to go to church.

"you are looking too low"
(qoute from Paul Harvey)

Christians are not perfect...just forgiven but more specifically to the people of this board...very misled.