5 years later and their basic needs a still lacking....
Now... When we INVADED didn't they have running water? Electricity? Hospitals? Schools?
The RED CROSS is saying that basic needs are NOT being met!
Way to go DUHbya and Co.!!!!!! When are you going to HELP the people?

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23664728

4 months after the election of Obama we'll be on our way out of Iraq.

A whole new business opportunity for you Skep. Manufacturing white flags for our troops to carry when Obama orders them to surrender.

Whatever.

The burden is gonna be on the brush whacker now back in Texas for lying to me about WMDs in Iraq in the first place. In this very forum you can find posts I made supporting Bush in his call to overthrow Saddam. I'm not supporting no F-ing a-hole's lie after he's out of office.

Instead of insulting me, you can get off your butt and get over in Iraq yourself.

And yes, I'm in a foul mood. I've had enough of this phoney "freedom in Iraq" BS. So if you're not over there helping "installing freedom" yourself, then step aside and lets us bring our troops home.

I supported it too.

Also remember the day I realized it was started on lies. We talked at work about all the WMD stuff and how if we did this right, that region of the world might actually see greater democracy.

We talked about how we would write the new constitution to model our own --that the Iraqi people --a people with a long and creative history would be free to innovate and build.

Then it scrolled by on that little terror scrolling bar FOX got some award for.

"WHITE HOUSE: THE REGIME IS THE WEAPON OF MASS DESTRUCTION."

Read that, thought about it, because it scrolled by, or I would have just read it again.

Took about 2 minutes for me to realize, if the regime is the WMD, then we have NOTHING. Why then start the war, if it was not about terror and specifically 9/11?

Oil hit the top of that list fairly quickly. After some time the dollar ended up very close to that. Began to read about the petrodollar and what that means for our currency.

Saddam was going to trade in euros. That was a very significant financial threat.

Really, we (as in the Bush administration) couldn't get along with Saddam, despite empowering him years earlier. Too much baggage there to cut a deal, so we took him out for the greater good.

And that President lied about it.

I'm still pissed about it. And the funny thing is oil is now being traded in euros too. Go look at that list of nations this President is wanting to pick fights with. Lots of them have oil and they are considering euros too.

Had this all come out, I'm not sure we would have sold that war to the American people, nor the world in general.

What was a golden opportunity to really make a statement about terror and unite many nations to a common cause was instead exploited and that has pissed off most of the nations that matter.

It's a real crime --as real as 9/11 is, and just as potent too.

Go read the Iraqi constitution sometime. The Koran is in Article one and is the supreme law of the land. That is now an Islamic nation and we did it.

The President didn't lie about anything, Saddam had WMD's, he had the capability of making more, and he violated the cease fire.

And HE(Sadam)HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 9/11!

Yeah Nwokie, I saw Elvis at the Burger King too.

"The President didn't lie about anything, Saddam had WMD's, he had the capability of making more"

Both Patently False.
Why do you believe this shit?

Because FAUXNews says so....
O'LIEly says so...
Insannity says so....
LimBLAH says so....

Ed Shcultz says it's false...
Rhodes says it's false....
Hartman says it false...
Air America says it's false....
CNN says it's false.....
MSN says it's false
The Oregonian says it's false....
The WORLD says it's false....

My personal opinion as to why these lies continue to be part of the national debate, despite being DEBUNKED MULTIPLE TIMES, is that it is simply easier to believe them than it is to deal with the implications that come with accepting them as lies.

And there are a lot of implications!

It's like a bubble. Once a person has gone far enough down that road, a great many other things depend on these core false statements. So they end up in the reality distortion bubble.

It's not just about saying, "Ok, that was a lie." I don't think that's hard at all. Anybody can do it.

It's the stuff that depends on that lie --needs that lie, that is at issue.

Say you got your house tagged by local gang members and that tag included a death threat. So that's terror right.

Instead of focusing on those gang members, and their gang, you decide to burn down your next door neighbors house.

The real reason for the burning is because it's a freaking dump and as such it's taking the value of your house down, preventing that re-fi that will help you pay for the Hummer. The guy was a loud mouth and gloated over you being tagged, so he gets hammered good. Feels good too!

You tell everybody else that the neighbor is actually in league with and supportive of the gang, so you get support for that.

So a whole bunch of people then believe you are some kind of urban hero. They give you stuff, they support you in every way, they fight for you and so on and so on.

Then the lie comes out. Truth is, the whole thing was about the Hummer, and had nothing to do with the act of terror or the gang at all!

So the local rag prints the lie, and a few people hear about it and wake up. They are pissed. Word spreads and a significant number of people understand the truth.

However, the larger paper and the radio just keep on pumping out the lie. They do it because they don't want to have to admit they look like asses otherwise. And maybe it pays better, who knows?

Over time then, the very loyal, maybe those people you grew up with, etc... prefer to believe the lie because accepting the truth means they were duped, and duped over a long period of time. For these highly invested people, believing the lie then is worth more than coming to acceptance on the truth.

This is how it is with Iraq right now.

The people with no real skin in the game get the message and just think you are an ass and will say so. They get to acceptance and more or less stay there.

Those people believing the lie form a smaller group and feed each other and support one another, and that's kind of where we are today.

Today, with Iraq, we are still hearing the lies being supported in enough places and at enough times for those people who want to believe them to feel like they are ok. They are not alone and that somehow this is all really worth it.


That's not a personal attack on anyone here either --just a statement of what I think part of the issue is.

I've been there too. Swallowed a lot of dogma whole. It's not an easy thing to go back to the root of it and re-evaluate things. Takes time, takes energy and it undoes a lot of things.

Feel for anybody there right now. I can say it might seem easier, like continuing to consume an addictive substance is "easier". Breaking through is ugly, but the rewards are great.

Congressional approval is nearing an all time nadir. But that doesn't matter.

Blame Bush.
Blame Bush.
Blame Bush.

Blah, blah, blah.

Herb

Like many of us have repeatedly stated Herb, that low approval rating is largely due to this particular congress not taking the administration to task anywhere near well enough to satisfy the majority of Americans.

Stuff we need to get done isn't getting done and it's gridlock supporters, like you BTW, that are part of the problem.

I'm not approving of things right now, for these reasons. Had they called me, I would have said so, meaning I would be one of those numbers.

The blame I assign to the Democrats, is really failure to step up more aggressively and hammer home the rule of law and follow our process.

What you are going to see is another election where a significant number of seats flip again, ideally enough of them to get things sorted out and us back on the schedule of legislating things we need to get legislated, and less of these divisive ass covering games going on right now.

Those that claim that refocusing our troops on the real war on terror is somehow "waving a white flag of surrender" need to go back and revisit history. The U.S. has made its share of mistakes before, and refocusing was required to emerge victorious against the true enemies of freedom. Iraq and Saddam were part of the overall "stratergy" of the Bush-Cheney administration since before the attacks on 9/11 and somehow too many are forgetting that fact.

I personally thought the invasion was a mistake from the get go. Somehow, the stupid jackasses on the extreme right, void of most social skills and logic, equated questioning the invasion of Iraq with left winged lunacy and anti-patriotism. Many in the country knew the ball was in Afghanistan back then, but were drowned out by the Bush mentality followers. Look at the frikkin mess this has brought the country. Yet still, there are some (18%) that still are consumed by Bush/GOP dogma. It's easy to support a war that you personally do not have to fight and possibly die in. It's harder to be against government policy when you know in your heart it is founded in the greed of the wealthy and their lust for power and you find the mission is to enlighten the less than intellectually gifted on the reality of world politics.

Oh Herb I can't wait for your Blame Obama campaigns.

How big does ones mouth have to be to speak fluently out of both sides?

Actually, I kind of like Mr. Obama.
Compared to Mrs. Clinton, he's a breath of fresh air.

What I don't get is how the left doesn't see the Trash N' Bash programme currently being carried out by the Clinton campaign. Liberals want to blame Mr. McCain.

What is it with you guys? If it isn't Mr. Bush, then instead it's blame republicans...but never one of your own...even when it IS one of your own.

Herbert Milhous

Not true. In the other thread I posted to Digitaldextor how he was just succumbing to Clinton machine politics.

Same here. There is no blaming McCain on that stuff.

Clinton really has gone outta bounds on this one. It's not pretty at all.

Okay.

But for a while there, I was getting worried about you guys drinking the Clinton Kool-Aide. For at least a month or more in this campaign, it's been obvious what the Clinton's are doing. And that crying jag of Mrs. Clinton's is what made me really want to take the gloves off. In my case, that meant strongly defending Mr. Obama.

She's all about playing the race card, the gender card, the victim card. You name it, she'll deal it...and straight from the bottom of the deck.

Herb

Blame Bush.
Blame Bush.
Blame Bush.

Blah, blah, blah.


That ALL you EXTREME RIGHT wingnuts did for 7 1/2 years!!!!

Oh Herb I can't wait for your Blame Obama campaigns.

Just wait!!!! That's all it's going to be... Obama's a Liberal leftists that just wants to kill babies!!!
Hand wringing commie leftists!
I can hear it now!
And if Hillary wins....
HOLY CRAP!
Herb's guna have a coronary....
I'll be in Switzerland so it won't matter to me...

Anyone, democrat or republican, who supports abortion, has to attempt to defend that barbaric practice.

If the republican is 'pro-choice' and the democrat is pro-life, the democrat gets my vote...especially if the democrat is anti-terror.

Adoption, not abortion.

Herb

"especially if the democrat is anti-terror. "

How about you enlighten us with a few names of Democrats that are "pro-terror".

"How about you enlighten us with a few names of Democrats that are "pro-terror"."

The Weather Underground was pro-terror. Several members got blown up making bombs in a NY townhouse. Now, which prominent Democratic candidate was associating with the Weather Underground? I wouldn't say that made any Democrat "pro-terror", but it isn't exactly good on the other hand either.

Sorry, maybe it's my relative youth ( LMAO ) but are you referring to The Weather Underground from around 40 years ago? Or are you referring to some kind of organization that is, you know, currently alive? I cannot find anything on them that isn't quite old.

You know who else bugs me? Medusa. She's so mean.

Leftists who support the stripping of our military are effectively pro-terror, as are those who sell our government secrets to the enemy.

Mr. Clinton and his minions meet both criteriae.

Herb

Laugh if you wish CJ, but the people who comprised the WU are still around and Obama has been attracted to them. Doesn't mean much by itself at all.

But, why would a young black man be attracted to these individuals? And why would this same young black man be attracted to Louis Farrakan and his hatred of Jews? And why would this same young black man be attracted to Rev. Wright and all of his hate for America and Whites?

Oh, and don't forget, we're also supposed to want this same young black man to be President of the United States.

So you are saying that Bill Clinton is actually in favor of terror?

I was laughing at the thought of being labeled young. Not The WU.

So let me just ask you plainly - instead of pretending all your questions are answers; Do you genuinely believe Obama is hostile to whites in the manner you are suggesting? ( And if you say something like " I have no idea. But it makes you wonder why..." then you are just being a cock. Be a man and say what you feel instead of implying stuff you don't have the balls to admit you feel because you know it ain't true - but you WISH it was ) How would that manifest itself if he became President? Name a couple policies that would reflect this anti-whatever agenda you are touting as fact. Go ahead. How many times will I have to ask that of you before I get a straight answer?

CJ, it appears he has found this type of thinking acceptable in the past since he has found himself attracted to these people.

Let me go back to some old Iowa farm sayings my Mother used to use when I was in school. She's now 96 to give you a perspective on the era.

Birds of a feather flock together.
Water seeks it's own level.
People judge you by the company you keep.

You ask the question "how would that manifest itself if he became President? I find it incredible that you even ask that question, and I would find it more incredible if I answered it, which would give the question credibility. If you can't figure out why we wouldn't want a person who gravitated toward those kinds of people as President, then there is no helping you with your thinking.

I've pointed out the questionable areas in Obama's past, it's up to you to make your own decision as to whom to support.

Wait. My question is SO absurd that you won't dignify it with an answer?

" How would that manifest itself if he became President? " is pattently obvious? Well since you won't answer it, I'll have to assme. Which, apparently, you are just fine with me doing.

It would manifest itself with the rounding up of whites and making them become slaves to black people. Is that what you are saying would happen? Or would they just kill us? Maybe that's what you are saying. I'm not asking those questions rhetoricaly either. I really wanted to know what you were thinking.

I think that you typing out what you REALLY think would happen would be " virtually nothing." But that doesn't work to serve your argument very well. So instead, you be all coy and leave it to the imagination of others - which when typed out, REALLY becomes absurd.

LAME! Weak. Cowardly. Unsupported. Lie. No basis in truth.

Heck, you can't even answer the simple question " Do you believe that Obama really holds these beliefs you are suggesting - but won't actually SAY he believes."

I don't even think you believe that it's a legitimate fear. I think you just like saying it and then hope nobody notices when your logic crumbles. I mean, at this point, you believe there is a conspiracy against whites and that Obama, if elected, will show his true colors ( because he is lying about his true convictions right now - just to get elected - right? ) and all the white people will suffer because, well, they are white.

Am I really that far off? If so, tell me and explain where I am wrong. It's not like I didn't ask you 5 times to explain it and you danced around the question 5 times.

Fear mongers provide no explanations. Cheap shots are their specialty. When confronted with facts they change the subject.
They also can not defend the same defects in their chosen champions. How can any responsible voter forget the uproar
over Bush family values. Clearly the shrub had a lot of shady characters that got him where he is(isn't) today, but if I dwell on that I'm the one that's hijacking the thread and turning everything into a Bush hate argument. Still, observing the right attack Obama on this overblown issue while they totally don't respond to the root of the topic is so typical of their approach to spreading fear and exaggerations.

I'm man enough to admit it; Obama takes enough of my fear away that it leaves me unincumbered to regain some sanity, strength and motivates me. Call it " Hope " call it " The right thing for me " I don't care.

I'm voting for Obama if given the chance.

I can't believe I'm quoting Tracy Morgan - but it made me laugh enough to remember it;

MORGAN: Why is it that every time a black man in this country gets too good at something, there’s always someone come around and remind us that he’s black? First Tiger, then Donavan McNabb then me. Now Barack. I got a theory about that. It’s a little complicated but basically, it goes like this: we are a racist country. The end. It’s not the people in this room, but if we’re not a racist country, how did Hillary Clinton convince everybody in Texas and Ohio that Barack didn’t know how to answer the phone at 3 in the morning? Let me tell you something, Barack knows how to answer that phone. He’s not going to answer it like, (soft, frightened voice) “Hello, I’m scared. What’s going on?” He is gonna answer it like I would get a phone call at 3 in the morning: “Yeah, who’s this? This better be good or I’m going to come down there and put somebody in a wheelchair.”

Some things never change, Seth. People saying he’s not a fighter. Let me tell you something. He’s a gangsta, he’s from Chicago. Barack is not winning because he’s a black man. If that was the case, I would be winning. And I’m way blacker than him. I used to smoke Newports and drink Olde English. I grew up on government cheese, I prefer it. Now there’s all this stuff and all this talk about the pastor. Barack has to stay away from the pastor, ‘cause he’s too black. But just because he knows the dude doesn’t think…doesn’t mean that he’s gonna think like him. Look, I have a friend who goes to strip clubs, that doesn’t mean that I am gonna go to the strip club.

MEYERS: But you do go to strip clubs.

MORGAN: Yeah, but I go for the girls, not because my friend is going. I have integrity. Barack is qualified. Personally, I want to know what qualifies Hillary Clinton to be the next president. Is it because she was married to the president? If that were the case then Robin Givens would be the heavyweight champion of the world. If Hillary’s last name wasn’t Clinton, she’d be some crazy white lady with too much money and not enough lovin’. That’s where I come in. I know women like that, you do not want them on the phone at 3 in the morning. In conclusion, three weeks ago, my girl Tina Fey went on the show, she declared that “bitch is the new black”. You know I love you, Tina. You know you’re my girl. But I have something to say. Bitch may be the new black, but black is the new president, bitch.

Deane sounds like an old, white, racist.

"So you are saying that Bill Clinton is actually in favor of terror?"

His pardon of the uber-slimy Marc Rich shows Mr. Clinton is a sell-out. On top of that, his re-classifying military secrets to 'commerce' and selling them to the commies illustrate his willingness to compromise our national defense to the detriment of our country's security.

By stripping our military and selling our secrets, Mr. Clinton effectively promoted terror.
You going to take issue with that? Or are you going to parse the meaning of the word 'is' like your pal?
Herb

Herb you're that stylus that needs to be replaced on that beat up vinyl record. You keep skipping back at the same place every time.

You're a one groove only type of basher.

Bash Clinton
Bash Clinton
Bash Clinton

The world has already passed you by yet you keep your hands in Clinton’s pocket. Just what are you grabbing at?

Herb.

EARTH TO HERB! YOUR STILL BASHING CLINTON!!!!! I don't know if you really grasp what your doing??? He's been gone for 7 1/2 years!!!! The same amount of time that your bashed him while he was in office.

IT'S TIME TO STOP!!!!!!1

His pardon of the uber-slimy Marc Rich shows Mr. Clinton is a sell-out. On top of that, his re-classifying military secrets to 'commerce' and selling them to the commies illustrate his willingness to compromise our national defense to the detriment of our country's security.His pardon of the uber-slimy Marc Rich shows Mr. Clinton is a sell-out. On top of that, his re-classifying military secrets to 'commerce' and selling them to the commies illustrate his willingness to compromise our national defense to the detriment of our country's security. His pardon of the uber-slimy Marc Rich shows Mr. Clinton is a sell-out. On top of that, his re-classifying military secrets to 'commerce' and selling them to the commies illustrate his willingness to compromise our national defense to the detriment of our country's security. His pardon of the uber-slimy Marc Rich shows Mr. Clinton is a sell-out. On top of that, his re-classifying military secrets to 'commerce' and selling them to the commies illustrate his willingness to compromise our national defense to the detriment of our country's security...........


Why can't you just answer a simple question without twisting yourself into a frikin' pretzel?

Do you believe that Bill Clinton is an advocate of terror?

His pardon of the uber-slimy Marc Rich shows Mr. Clinton is a sell-out.

And DUHbya's pardon of ANYONE on his staff will show that he is a sell-out.

Two wrongs.

Make a RIGHT for DUHbya and Co.

"YOUR STILL BASHING CLINTON!!!!!"

Let the record show that I was asked if Mr. Clinton is an advocate of terror.

The answer, in effect, is based on his reducing our protection whilst declassifying then selling our military secrets, is "yes."

I'm asked about the guy. If I don't answer, it's evading. If I do answer, it's bashing.

Nice try, Trixter. Go defend democrats all you want. The secret is out. You have become a leftist shill and a socialist mouthpiece.

Herb

Is Bush an advocate of terror for invading a nation that did not have a presense of Al Qaida at the time, but now does?

How many deaths does Clinton have on his hands compared to Bush? My math shows Bush is pitching a shut out...

The reason we invaded Iraq, is because they failed to honor the cease fire agreement of the first gulf war.

Let's be honest about Iraq. We invaded because Bush tried to out-do his old man.

"The reason we invaded Iraq, is because they failed to honor the cease fire agreement of the first gulf war."

That's not what we were told going into it.

If you look back, thats what was said, among the many sub reasons, one was the connection between Iraq and terrorist, and there are conncetions, another was Saddams refusal to prove he had destroyed all of his WMD, and eliminated the programs he didn't do that.

It's not so much what was said, it was what wasn't said.

The chief unspoken reason was O - I - L. Denied vehemently mostly by Cheney, the Bush administration did not want control over that oil to fall into the hands of any other world power.

There were no connections between Iraq and international terrorism. None. The invasion brought that to bear. Our own government has so stated, so get used to it.

If you look back, thats what was said, among the many sub reasons, one was the connection between Iraq and terrorist.

WRONG!

What was said is that YELLOWCAKE was being bought by Iraq which was FALSE and the Bush administration tried to sell a MUSHROOM cloud to us.
BULLSHIT!
Bush and Co. were the BIGGEST Flip-Floppers ever.... Changing the reasons like NOBODY was listening.... Bait and switch BULLSHIT!

Wanna get out of Iraq?

It is encouraging to see an idea with some solid military credentials get some national momentum with local help.