"The race is over.

The results are already clear. Obama will go to the Democratic Convention with a lead of between 100 and 200 elected delegates. The remaining question is: What will the superdelegates do then? But is that really a question? Will the leaders of the Democratic Party be complicit in its destruction? Will they really kindle a civil war by denying the nomination to the man who won the most elected delegates? No way. They well understand that to do so would be to throw away the party’s chances of victory and to stigmatize it among African-Americans and young people for the rest of their lives. The Democratic Party took 20 years to recover from the traumas of 1968 and it is not about to trigger a similar bloodletting this year.

John McCain’s nomination guarantees that the superdelegates wouldn’t dare. A perfectly acceptable alternative for most Democrats, McCain would harvest so large a proportion of Obama’s votes if Hillary steals the nomination that he would probably win. Even putting Obama on the ticket would not allay the anger of his supporters; it would just make him complicit in the robbery.

Will Hillary win Pennsylvania? Who cares? Even if she were to sweep the remaining primaries and caucuses by 10 points, she would move just 60 votes closer to Obama’s total of elected delegates. And she won’t sweep them all. Even if Hillary wins Pennsylvania, the largest prize up for grabs, Obama will probably win North Carolina, which is almost as large. He’s likely to win Mississippi and Wyoming and has a good shot in Oregon and Indiana. The most likely result of these coming contests is that Obama will be roughly where he is now, about 140 elected delegates ahead of Hillary."
http://thehill.com/dick-morris/its-over-2008-03-06.html

She will continue to fuck up the election for the Democrats much to the delight of the Republicans.

I hope she stays in till the end.

That just might backfire.

One thing going for Obama is pretty huge and visible grass roots support. That takes the discussion outside the mainstream media channels. Not a zero sum game anymore.

Still McCain does enjoy a nice break.

Not necessarily, if the Florida and Michigan delegates are allowed to vote, hillary will be ahead.

Just like the Demo party disinfranchise a significant part of its base.

Yup, while McCain sits back and plans the election Obama and Clinton are trading insults

More like Clinton throwing insults at Obama and Obama turning the other cheek.

I don't see how Clinton can come out of this in a positive light in ANY way.

Herb writes:
"McCain would harvest so large a proportion of Obama’s votes if Hillary steals the nomination that he would probably win."

I had a conversation about all the possible scenarios and I am seriously considering doing the following if one of these scenarios plays out.

If A) Hillary somehow wins the nomination via the superdelegates.

and B) If its a combined Obama/Clinton ticket

Either of these scenarios is frightening to me so much so that I would consider not letting my voice be heard at all in the general election by not voting at all. Yes these two scenarios would seriously forever disenfranchise myself as an American voter and fan of Political Science of our once great country.

McCain is more of the Same.

Hillary is indeed a Monster.

Nader doesn't stand a chance in Hell.

I want the change that Barack is promising to bring about and I believe him when he says "Yes WE Can!" Sometimes it is necessary to rock the boat and if Pittsburgh can elect a Twentysomething mayor why can't America reach out and embrace its youth and minority cultures?Its time to move forwards and Obama is the best chance of this for all Americans.

At least the other candidates aren't saying one thing to the public, then calling foreign governments and saying "I really didn't mean that".

"I don't see how Clinton can come out of this in a positive light in ANY way."

Agreed.

ABC.

Anyone but Clinton. That includes Nader, Obama, McCain or even Huckabee, if McCain stumbles.

ABC.

Herb

"A perfectly acceptable alternative for most Democrats, McCain would harvest so large a proportion of Obama’s votes if Hillary steals the nomination that he would probably win."

You're dead wrong. Those that are voting for Obama are doing so because THEY DON'T WANT MORE OF THE SAME. John McSame is Bush 2.0. No thanks.

totally

There is absolutely no way I'm gonna vote GOP.

If she manages to manipulate her way in there then she's gonna get the vote. Sucks, but the alternative is way worse.

What is Herb and all the EXTREME RIGHTIES going to do if they don't have Hillary or Bill to kick around? They've been pissing and moaning about them for close to 16 years. I bet Insannity and Bimbo will implode.

It's not looking good for my guy....

You're not fooling anyone, Trixter.

You only complain when the left is taken to task.

You're a demo, plain and simple.

Herb

Political parties are like sports teams.

If he says he's a Republican, he is. The kicker is just how many people like Trixter identify as Republican.

Given the horrible failure of the current alpha Republicans, the chances of more Trixters being Republican is higher than they were before.

With that growth comes party change, and that's good.

I doubt he is an Republican. Nothing he says proves it.

Says who?

Think about it. The party is really all about it's members. We know there are the 23 percenters anchoring it right now. But the rest of them are highly likely to be moderate and PISSED.

That's Trixter really. (And a lot of other people I know, who self identify as Republican.)

In fact, most people who do self identify as Republican, and are not the 23 percenter value voter or issue voter crowd, are interested in the core Republican ideas:

smaller govt, fiscal responsibility, etc...

All of those people are not seeing those ideas realized right now.

What that means is that a really vocal group has pulled the GOP off course, as much as it means somebody like Trixter is not really Republican.

From where I stand, we've got indy voters. Then we've got Democratic voters. This leaves the GOP.

The GOP is composed of everybody with some kind of chip on their shoulder: anti gay, theocrats, pro big business, bigots, racists, you name it. Most of those are in the 23 percent crowd.

You don't see the same kinds of things on either of the indy or Dem parties. There are always some, of course, but only the GOP has a hard core bloc composed of substantial numbers of these people.

There is a case for the GOP moving away from people like Trixter --pretty damn good case actually.

So there is a schizm in the GOP that's coming to a big head right now. That core nut has had it's day and it just wasn't pretty. So, it's change up time.

That will go through a cycle:

first there will be acceptance. That's happening right now as very large numbers of people finally grok what's going on.

then there will be lots of anger, fighting, etc...
that's kind of going on too, but will grow far more intense leading up to the election

when the GOP loses, then it's gonna all sort out. Those remaining GOP supporters will come to realize they've got to sort out their core party issues and build up something solid.

It's very likely the 23 percenters try and form their own party, because they are not gonna yield no matter what. If they could have yielded, they would have long before now.

After the election and a Democratic majority, and the cycle of resignations all works it's way through, primary challenges to GOP members are gonna get intense, just as they are already on the Democratic side of things.

That shifting of power will end up redefining the GOP, just as it did years ago when this change got started.

We may well find Trixter is a Republican then, having not changed a thing!

It just sickens me that so many Republicans cast stones at those of us who are very much fiscally conservative in the traditional sense. What is happening now isn't conservative economics, it's blasphemy. The federal government is the largest, in size and percentage, in the history of this nation. Bush is borrowing from God knows who to front massive military spending and other big government projects, while cutting back on social programs and while trying to DECREASE revenues. THAT is what we're sick of. The GOP was always the party of fiscal responsibility, what happened to that?

If I have to be a homophobe, racist, theocrat, Bible-thumper, anti-small guy to be a Republican (as is obviously the case according to Herb and Nwokie and others) ... well then count me out. I am not willing to become less of a human being just to align myself with a group of people like that.

I can't stand what DUHbya did to my party and it pisses me off that's why I stand with the Dems every once and a while. That doesnt make me Dem period. Just because I don't think 100% like Herb and Nwokie I'm NOT a Republican. BULLSHIT!
The MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY mentality is asinine and that's what the EXTREME RIGHT Bible Thumpin' idiots think. PURE 100% BULLSHIT!
My voters card says REPUBLICAN and has since the day I registered. Don't like it? TOO BAD!
I vote for the candidate that is going to do the best for AMERICA not one party. THE BAST FOR AMERICA! DUHbya hasn't done that job and it looks as though McCain might be dropping the ball. Business as USUAL is not taking care of AMERICA.
It doesn't look good for my guy....

If anything trixter, you should join the rest of us smart Americans and vote Independent. Sit back and watch the monkeys on the right fight with the morons on the left.

I still think you are closet Democrat though.

I'm leaning to the Independent side though. But with Bill O'LIEly saying he's an Independent I don't know.
Closet Dem? I don't agree with enough of their issues. If anyone but DUHbya would have been in office for the last 8 years I wouldn't be defending anyone or anything on the left. I stick up for Herb's most hated man Slick Willy because he pisses and moans about all of America 70% picking on DUHbya when his EXTREME RIGHT Bible thumpin' idiots did it for 7 1/2 years!
Closet Dem? Not a chance....
NOT for abortion but there needs to be a LEGAL 100% SAFE alternative.
NOT for giving everything away for free in America. But tax cuts for the less wealthy and the poor need SOME help.
NOT for Government helping everyone but SOME do need help.
NOT for Socialized medicine BUT there are WAY too many people without basic medical needs.
NOT for taking away guns form anyone because mine would be taken away. Murder is 100% illegal in America so I'm fine with that....
Closet Dem?
NOPE!

O'Reilly is not an independent. He's a conservative Republican. Better known as an IINO.

Better known as an IDIOT!

Naw, O'Reilly simply speaks the truth.

But plenty of anti-faith bigots don't like him.

Herb

PLENTY of ignorant BIGOTS LOVE his ignorant ass too.

"O'Reilly simply speaks the truth."

Herb, I can make you a good deal on a bridge in Brooklyn.

O'Reilly simply speaks the truth.

Show me......

I'll be waiting....

The sheer fact that so many leftists despise Mr. O'Reilly is convincing that he speaks the truth.

That is unless one buys into the view of a fellow traveler* like Mr. Clinton, who attempted to parse the word 'is,' whilst wagging his finger at the American public, lying all the while.

Herb

* fellow traveler–noun 1. a person who supports or sympathizes with a political party, esp. the Communist party, but is not an enrolled member.

Then Herb, you are a fellow traveler.

the current Republican party, unlike that of Mr. Nixon's, is closer to the communists than the Democrats.

Like the Russians, the Bush clan believes in locking up first, questioning later; individual rights have been tossed aside in favor of the "states"; torture is Ok as long as the means are achieved; government is now not only in the bedroom, but also our garbage cans.

So Comrade Herb, you can say Da to O'Reilly, but I say he should admit he is a Republican. and don't forget his own sexual escapades — ie. sexual harassment — for which he made a payment to settle.

Could the Eliot Spitzer mess hurt Clinton? He is the governor of the state she was elected from, and is a Clinton super delegate. I realize the two have little to do with each other, but what about public perception?

"Then Herb, you are a fellow traveler."

Saying that to a Nixon man is truly the ultimate insult. Before I know it, you'll be assailing Henry the K. and Chuck Colson himself.

Herb

The sheer fact that so many leftists despise Mr. O'Reilly is convincing that he speaks the truth.

He's hated by TRUE Republicans also. It's ONLY the insane and demented EXTREME RIGHT Bible thumpin' type that think his made up non-sense is truth.

Herb...
Still waiting for proof....

O Reilly is tough to support on very many things to me. He loves to cite things as fact, but when pressed on things that aren't fact, he THEN falls back on the " Hey. I'm just a guy with an opinion who has a show." But until he is challenged, he goes UNchallenged and people start swallowing it all whole. That's a mistake to do with just about any human being.

But because he's so passionate - even forceful - people think he couldn't possibly be wrong about anything. But he is often wrong. And just because he speaks the truth, doesn't mean he's got a corner on it.

I wonder if Trixter is aware that there are bible thumpers on the left as well. I have neighbors to prove it.

Yeah, sorry about that Mc74. We'll try to calm down a bit.

You've got thumpin' lefties?

Are they anti-gay and all that, or do they push other things?

Just curious as I don't know any of those.

Being "anti gay" is not a religous thing, I have a friend who is agnostic and does not support gay marriages.

You need to stop getting your info from Air America.

Paulwalker asked:

Could the Eliot Spitzer mess hurt Clinton?

Yes, without a doubt. The two camps are very tight. At the very least, he is a huge high profile supporter, turned huge high profile negative. Worse yet, this mess is right next door to the upcoming PA primary election. The more distance that the party can have from this scandal, the better, and that does not bode well for the Clintons.

He is the governor of the state she was elected from, and is a Clinton super delegate. I realize the two have little to do with each other, but what about public perception?

Public perception? That might be nasty all the way around. For those of us who follow the money, Spitzer was a faucet, and it is now off. For those in the New York districts that had voting issues, the investigations were blocked by Spitzer. Since the inevitable replacement Governor once represented Harlem, that could all change.

For the rest of America, it is just a matter of jogging a distasteful memory. Who was the last Democrat to lead the news for weeks and weeks with a sex scandal? I know. Ouch. Lunch pail America is not dumb, they are disgusted will this kind of government.

To speculate a bit on your premise, we do not know how little they have to do with each other, yet. Remember, someone used to sleep with their staff, and was caught over and over. If he did not fundamentally change his behavior, he has to more sneaky now. With that potential bombshell out there, I think that the jury (pun intended) is out at this point.

Oh, what a tangled web we weave...

You misunderstand.

Anti-gay is often a religious thing, but not always. I know people, who are anti-gay, for non-religious reasons. I get that.

I was just wondering what left bible thumpers were like! Just posed a question to spark discussion really. How are they different from rightie bible thumpers?

Since I don't know them and you really don't have to say, it's just a discussion about kinds of people. Nothing personal at all.

Nothing to do with AAR.

Bill O'Reilly is a bigot.

Bigots can come from any background.

Bigots have issues with most people.

Most people have issues with bigots.

Thankfully, there are many more people than bigots.

Geraldine Ferarro was interviewed and few days ago and said:

"I think what America feels about a woman becoming president takes a very secondary place to Obama's campaign - to a kind of campaign that it would be hard for anyone to run against," she said. "For one thing, you have the press, which has been uniquely hard on her. It's been a very sexist media. Some just don't like her. The others have gotten caught up in the Obama campaign."

"If Obama was a white man, he would not be in this position," she continued. "And if he was a woman (of any color) he would not be in this position. He happens to be very lucky to be who he is. And the country is caught up in the concept."

Daily Breeze

With that statement, she is dancing rather close to the line we call bigotry. I do agree that if Obama were a white man, we would not be in this position. The numbers would be crunched, the party would unite and this nomination would be buttoned up. Instead of being resentful of his campaign, she needs to grasp that Obama is evidence of the very same Democratic progress that put her on a ticket, and Hillary in this race.

In the end, bigotry was not what buried our last national female candidate in a huge election. It was financial scandal. Still, Geraldine Ferraro cannot accept that it was her dirt and a weak ticket. It was not her gender, it was her trash. If she is still angry about losing in 1984, she needs to let it go. When I read something like this, I am very disappointed.

Ms. Ferarro is correct in that the media is sexist and especially hard on her. It's actually opened my eyes to be honest, and has shown me that sexism still exists (and probably always will).

However, I think she's dead wrong about Obama. His color has nothing to do with his "concept", rather, it has everything to do with his personality and stances on the issues.

I agree with that.

Obama is just solid. Happens to be Black, but that's not getting him much. It's who he is and how he is doing things that's got people catching the fever.

The sexism is bigger than I thought it would be too. Major bummer there. Guess we've work to do on something always!

I always wonder why it is that people such as Obama is considered black with being half white.

I knew this girl in high school who was half white and black but since her skin color was lighter everyone said she was white.

Same goes for Tiger Woods. Always gets called an African American despite having Asian heritage.

Something said: "O'Reilly simply speaks the truth."

Said O'Rielly to Al Franken on camera: "Shut up! Shut up! Shut up!"




I report, you decide.

mc74 sez: "I always wonder why it is that people such as Obama is considered black with being half white."

I'm wondering why you're wondering about it? I look at Obama as a Senator running for President. Whether he's white or black doesn't even register until someone like you bring it up. So what is with this? Why do you care? Hmm?

Note to Herb:

I worked with (around would be more accurate) Bill O'Reilly during his tenure at KATU.

He is not to be trusted. His agenda ($) dictates what he will say to whom he speaks when he says it. Now that he has a lucrative contract, he is even less reliable and frankly, is not worth your praise. If you agree with what he says, and you have that right, please keep in mind that he is only saying it to keep his ratings.
He doesn't believe that his position in the media exists for anybody but himself (a near direct quote).

There are other conservatives more worthy of praise.

Bill O is a GOP mouth piece. They pay the most and need the mouths.

I wonder if Trixter is aware that there are bible thumpers on the left as well. I have neighbors to prove it.

I'm sure there are. Just like there are PRO-Life on the left but 99.875% of BTers are on the EXTREME Right....
I'm just sayin'

"Happens to be Black, but that's not getting him much. It's who he is and how he is doing things that's got people catching the fever."

Wrong, he is getting the black vote in the South that Hillary would be getting if Obama were not black. I do not blame any African American for supporting Obama even if it is just because of his skin color. But he is getting enough White and Asian votes to put him on top as well.

Doesn't look good for my guy....

I have a long time friend who is left leaning and is a bible thumper. He is the true mean of a compassionate conservative IMHO even though he is a registered democrat. His stance on homosexuality has always bothered me because it makes no logical sense whatsoever. He doesn't have a problem with gays but feels as though the only way you can be an accepted and openly gay christian is if you are a celibate gay. Yeah I know its pretty stupid.

"Doesn't look good for my guy...."

Why is he STILL your guy?

Exactly, Amus. If you're such a McCain fan AND a republican, what's with the lily-livered hand-wringing?

Me thinks Trixter doth protesteth too much.

The jig is up, Trixter.

Herb

I'm hoping that Jonny Mc will shed his trust of DUHbya and Co. and bring the 2 sides together. Johhny Mc is a TRUE Republican that's why he has caused such a stir with the ULTRA-Elite and the EVANGELICAL Bible thumpers. His stance on Iraq is troublesome and will probably cost him the election barring an October surprise by DUHbya and Co.
It just doesn't look good for my guy.
The jig ain't up Herb. You just can stomach the fact that a Republican doesn't think 100% YOUR WAY!
GET OVER IT!

McCain maybe could have been considered a true Republican once, but since taking up residence in Bush's colon, he's just another turd.

I still hold out hope. He has pissed the EXTREME RIGHT Bible thumpers off. That's all that counts at this point....

I guess what I'm curious about is how can you still trust him?

"He is getting the black vote in the South that Hillary would be getting if Obama were not black. I do not blame any African American for supporting Obama even if it is just because of his skin color."

I respectfully, but strongly disagree. Reaching out and unifying the black vote was the single most important factor in the election of Bill Clinton, a white man. Author Toni Morrison even speculated that Clinton was our "First Black President" when he was elected. Blacks have voted for many white candidates dating back to 1965.

This might surprise you, but black voters are much like white voters: They do the research and choose a candidate that they believe will do the best job. The code-speak Dixiecrat bigotry of the Clinton campaign has been losing her votes of every background. This is a far bigger factor than Obama gaining black votes just for his skin color. If Obama subtly polarized and demonized women or whites, it would go the same way.

Obama has built a lead in this election by making case for his candidacy based on his record, his abilities and his campaign of reaching out to all Americans. The idea that a vast majority of folks -- whether it is women for Hillary, or blacks for Obama -- are voting based on their genetics is discounting the smarts and will of the Democratic electorate. We all vote as people for people.

If one were to peg a singular factor that cuts across all demographics in this election, it would be simple: Hillary voted for the war.

"You just can stomach the fact that a Republican doesn't think 100% YOUR WAY!"

Since Mr. McCain is pro-life and tough on terror, you bet I'm voting for him. Those two key issues are among the most important there are.

Herbert Milhous

Important for YOU

Lets see.

Staying alive and free of terrorism is important to most Americans.

And along with being a vital issue to millions of aborted children, the tragic aftermath of abortion affects countless women, too:

http://www.reviveourhearts.com/pdf/uploads/PostAbortionSyn.pdf

How you can try to wave away such carnage is astonishing. Trixter, if you don't choose to defend innocent life, at least be honest with your democrat views. Your whole republican poseur sham is a total joke.

Herbert McCain Huckabee

Actually Herb, if you check the polls, the economy and the war are the most important issues to all Americans by very wide margins.

Without debating the merits of a "pro-life" stance that believes in entrenched poverty, unilateral war and capital punishment, I will pass along these two articles:

Pro-Life Groups Hit by GOP Lawmaker's Alleged Fraud

Embattled Congressman Rick Renzi's biggest victims may be the right-to-life groups he claimed to represent in Washington

So, Herb, is the abortion issue merely a political football, or not? Are you surprised or disappointed by this cynical manipulation of your beliefs to raise enough money to achieve power? Setting the shrub aside, do you believe Republicans deserve better from their leadership?

If so, you need to make sure that you let the GOP know that this will not be tolerated. Trying to convince the nation that it is a big moral issue, without holding your own accountable for immorality, is not a successful way to reinforce your position.

A good healthy Economy
Good Schools
Health care

These mean NOTHING to you? Just killing human beings?

Your whole republican poseur sham is a total joke.


I've stated at least 20 times why I'm a TRUE Republican and if your to incredibly inept to remember that is YOUR fault. I will no longer defend myself as to if I'm a Republican or not. I've made myself clear MANY times.

Sorry YOU have such a problem with a Republican disagreeing with you. THUMP your Bible somewhere else Herb.

Hey, let's just list our issues by importance!

Why not, this one's going south anyway?

So, PDXRadio quick poll:

For me:

Economy / War (tied and related actually)
Health Care
Ethics (FISA, etc...)
Security (terror, effective security -vs- bs)
Social Issues

That's where I'm at right now.

I believe that Missing and I share the same priorities, so ditto him on my list.

To return to Geraldine Ferraro, there is a disturbing pattern in her behavior that can lead me to only one conclusion. Perhaps, you will draw the same message from this article:

A Ferraro flashback

"If Jesse Jackson were not black, he wouldn't be in the race," she said.

Really.

The cite is an April 15, 1988 Washington Post story by Howard Kurtz, available only on Nexis.

Here's the full context:

Placid of demeanor but pointed in his rhetoric, Jackson struck out repeatedly today against those who suggest his race has been an asset in the campaign. President Reagan suggested Tuesday that people don't ask Jackson tough questions because of his race. And former representative Geraldine A. Ferraro (D-N.Y.) said Wednesday that because of his "radical" views, "if Jesse Jackson were not black, he wouldn't be in the race."

Asked about this at a campaign stop in Buffalo, Jackson at first seemed ready to pounce fiercely on his critics. But then he stopped, took a breath, and said quietly, "Millions of Americans have a point of view different from" Ferraro's.

Discussing the same point in Washington, Jackson said, "We campaigned across the South . . . without a single catcall or boo. It was not until we got North to New York that we began to hear this from Koch, President Reagan and then Mrs. Ferraro . . . . Some people are making hysteria while I'm making history."

Politico

Well, I will give Ferraro credit for total consistency. Since this attitude has been on display for at least 20 years, why is this person a top fund raiser for the Clinton campaign? After her remarks this past week, why does she still retain that job?

Sad.

I heard Walter Mondale got a speeding ticket.

He was going 69 in a Ferraro!

Bada bing!

Economy is #1 and I don't see a corralation really between the current economic problems and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Health Care for all is #2

Ethics and the Wars are tied for #3

Immigration/Security (now these are IMHO directly tied together) is #4

A very distant issue that I am sure will not be addressed by any of the final two or three canidates is the War on Drugs and Prison Industrial Complex issues with the dispariaty when it comes to Socio-economic demographics and the disparity of prison sentences and the scheduling of drugs.

Economy is #1 on my list because my job depends on it.

Education is #2 because how can America grow as a country if we're dumb. Look at the South....

Health Care is #3 without this I'm going to have to pay for the UNinsured sooner or later.

Immigration and Homeland security is #4. SECURE our borders! PROTECT America from WITHIN!!!!!

Here is Geraldine Ferraro interviewed by John Gibson on February 27, 2008. Seeing this footage, I am only more deeply convinced she is a racist. After all, she said it herself in the broadcast, "I'm like a lunatic about this stuff." Yes, Geraldine, you are a lunatic about that stuff. You also have no place in the future of the Democratic Party.

In the next 24 hours, we could see a whole flock of female super delegates go to Barack Obama, led by the suddenly empowered, motivated and raging mad, Nancy Pelosi.

Popcorn anyone? :0)

Hold the butter, I'm trying to lose weight.

"So, Herb, is the abortion issue merely a political football, or not?"

If it is, it shouldn't be. And I don't carry water for anyone's bad behaviour. The life issue and fighting terror are two of the utmost important issues.

Just because Mr. Spitzer has allegedly commited wrongdoing doesn't mean I'm going to pile on him for his so-called 'pro-choice' views. The same is true with republican like Larry Craig. Wrong is wrong and both Mr. Spitzer AND Mr. Craig should both resign.

But because Mr. Spitzer appears to be ready to resign and Mr. Craig hasn't, Mr. Craig should resign or be impeached.

Republican or democrat, I don't defend bad behaviour.

Herb

"Republican or democrat, I don't defend bad behaviour."

Then why do you defend Bush/Cheney?

Billions of Iraqis are now free and best of all...there are no more rape rooms.

Duh!

I forgot about the rape rooms. My bad.

"Then why do you defend Bush/Cheney?"

If you've been paying attention, I believe they're wrong on NAFTA, GATT, the WTO, big tobacco and I'm also no fan of HMO's, either.

However, when they're right, as they are on terror and the life issue, they're right.

Heck, as pinko as Mark Hatfield was, I'll give him credit for defending life.

I call 'em as I see 'em.

Herb

The Pentagon study suggests that Bush & Co. were wrong about the al Qaeda/Iraq connection, either that or they were lying to justify their plan to invade Iraq.

The rape rooms are indeed closed.
Kurds are no longer being gassed.
Elections are being held.
Women can attend school.

So given all that, along with freeing a few dozen MILLION people, I guess Iraq was 'wrong.'

The other option, along the lines of Jimmy Carter...who allowed our country to be held hostage for 444 days...was to allow Mr. Saddam to continue shooting at our airmen as they enforced the no-fly zone, whilst violating the mealy-mouthed UN, all the while allowing that dastardly black-heart to keep lobbing poison gas at Israel.

Spin on, lefties. The surge is working and you've got nothing but millions of now free people refuting your pathetic, weasly socialist agendae.

Herbert Milhous Nixon

Kurds are no longer being gassed.

That because Sadam ran out of Reagan administration sold VX gas.

What about NO clean drinking water?
What about no electricity?
What about CONSENT gunfire in the streets?
What about all the kids that CAN'T go to school?
Where's all the oil that RUMMY DUH DUMMY and the DICKster promised us?
Our kids are still being killed!
If the surge is working then why are we still there in huge numbers? Let's bring 50,000 home? Hell... 10,000. If the surge is that popular bring some of hour Hero's home!

Yep, and it only cost a recession, increased national debt, school closures and other public service cutbacks, continuing illiteracy, starving children in the US, elderly with no health care, and $4.00 per gallon gas. Oh Yah, did I mention the thousands of American soldiers who died for all of this? Do you honestly think they are happy with what Iraq has gained over what has happened to America as a result?

Of all the movies that have came out about the war I may just have to see this one:

http://www.stoplossmovie.com/?gclid=CK7B4ZGziJICFRlkYAodbwNGAw

It is overdue for America to "Stop Loss"! If they can't handle it by themselves by now they never will! Is it our duty to stay there forever....HELL NO!

Bush/Cheney could not have been more WRONG on Iraq.

As far as the surge working, not so fast... The surge is a band aid on a scab that WE picked off by choice.

Rise in deaths casts doubt on surge.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23591348/

It doesn't seem millions of Iraqis would agree that living conditions have improved since the invasion began in 2003.

http://www.globalresearch.ca/articles/HAS506A.html

So if given the choice between living in a free Iraq or one under Saddam, which of you leftist Einsteins would choose the latter?

Spin on.

Herbert M. Nixon

Of course it's better to live free you idiot. But what cost freedom? Why the fuck should we rebuild their country for them? We are throwing money at them to fix things, not monitoring anything, and shocked when nothing is getting done and the money has not be spent on what is was supposed to be spent on. It's time to call them to the carpet and let then take care of there own sorry asses!

Of course it's better to live free you idiot.

NICE!

What I want to know Herb is.... Was it worth it to BANKRUPT our country by spending TRILLIONS upon TRILLIONS of money that we DON'T have? How are you going to get that back? Who's going to pay for it?
Answer those questions....

By living free does that mean Free of electricity? Free of running water? Free to leave your neighborhood without fear of being gunned down or blown up? Free of basic necessities like food? Free of healthcare? Free of education? I'd guess a large majority of the supposed millions of "now free" Iraqis would choose to live under Saddam's rule than the way the country has been ruined by our unjustified invasion.

OUCH!

How much money have we spent on the Iraqi government to help rebuild there country that has simply vanished?

What is the definetion of a Surge and if the Surge is working why do some GOP'ers insist that we are gonna have to be in Iraq for the next 50-100 years? That doesn't sound like a surge that has worked to me or is working for that matter.

Everyone....Dogpile on HERB!

OK...but keep your ham fists to yourself.

While neither is a perfect world, it appears as if things were better when Saddam was in power and contained.

"Everyone....Dogpile on HERB!"

Dogpile away, you libs...I'm used to it around this crowd. Even being outnumbered 10 to 1, I'm still standing. I'd like to see you hand-wringers do as well on a conservative board. You'd be crying in your Stella Artois by the first post.

And just as our nation remains grateful to France for her help during our country's nascent days, the Iraqi people will likely return the favour. And even if they DIDN'T, doing the right thing whilst fighting oppression and spreading freedom is what America is all about.

Herb

I think most "liberal" posters would do just fine on a conservative board, because arguments either stand or fail based on the argument itself, not the poster's political affiliation or how well they can deceitfully present them. And as it stands today, the conservative position doesn't have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to foreign policy or domestic policy. Both have been proven to be miserable failures.

And as far as the Iraqi government doing us favours, don't count on it.

"Iraq isn't spending much of its own money, despite soaring oil revenues that are pushing the country toward a massive budget surplus, auditors told Congress on Tuesday.

The expected surplus comes as the U.S. continues to invest billions of dollars in rebuilding Iraq and faces a financial squeeze domestically because of record oil prices.

"The Iraqis have a budget surplus," said U.S. Comptroller General David Walker. "We have a huge budget deficit. . . . One of the questions is who should be paying."

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5hcWJu9bbzrJZ7uNHjvMn0BuTGqHQD8VBCOK00

We're grateful to France now? Does that mean I don't have to call 'em freedom fries anymore and I don't have to pester my wife for a freedom kiss?

Vitalogy, that comment was just plain ignorant.

---

quote:

doing the right thing whilst fighting oppression and spreading freedom is what America is all about.

Herb

---

Fighting oppression and spreading freedom ... but Herb, that is not what Iraq is about nor has it ever been about anything but
OIL and the Bush admin personal vendetta.

When are you going to wake up? Never.

The obfuscation of the war on terror by the Bush admin has cost us so many lives and a fortune in money. As a result, this country's economy is in the dumper for most Americans and the war on terror in Afghanistan and around the world is gaining strength. The military has been put in an untenable position by the shrub, and when they speak out against his plans they are canned.

Conservatives who vote McCain are like abused dogs who keep licking their master's hand.

Blah blah blah, war for oil, blah, blah, personal vendetta, blah, blah heard it all before.

come with something new.

Sit. Roll over.

I love how this topic started out as a topic about Clinton and as usual on this liberal infested board quickly turns to the war in Iraq and the same old same old about Bush.

You people have a one track mind. Its like you need Air America to tell you how to think

"...as it stands today, the conservative position doesn't have much of a leg to stand on when it comes to foreign policy or domestic policy..."

Yeah, right.

That's why the lame duck, unpopular Mr. Bush STILL has DOUBLE the approval ratings as the democrat-led Congress.

You're capable of better work, but I'm feeling charitable and won't be ham-fisted. You get a C-.

Next time start with fact-checking.

Herb

"We're grateful to France now?"

Oui, oui!

Once Chirac left the building, I started shopping for French bubbly.

Herb

---

quote:

doing the right thing whilst fighting oppression and spreading freedom is what America is all about.

Herb

---

"DOUBLE the approval ratings"

Nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin'
You gotta have somethin'
If you wanna be with me
Nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin'
You gotta have somethin'
If you wanna be with me

I'm not tryin' to be your hero
'Cause that zero is too cold for me, Brrr
I'm not tryin' to be your highness
'Cause that minus is too low to see, yeah

Nothin' from nothin' leaves nothin'
And I'm not stuffin'
Believe you me
Don't you remember I told ya
I'm a soldier in the war on poverty, yeah
Yes, I am

Billy Preston/Bruce Fisher

Herb, the facts have been checked:

Foreign policy is indeed a disaster. We are in a war that should have never been waged that is costing us lives and money, and has made the US and the world LESS safe.

Domestic policy is a disaster as well, as we are now in our second recession on Bush's watch, while at the same time, we have watched our national debt grow by over $3 trillion dollars with a record budget deficit so far this year. We are losing our standing as an economic power each day that goes by.

So, unlike you, I don't really give a darn about approval ratings. I care about results. The results under GOP leadership have been dismal both internationally and domestically.

Darfur.

Sounds like another UN debacle. Yet another reason to disband that spynest.

Darfur Scores
View Members of Congress by State:

Member of Congress (by state) Grade

Sen. Ron Wyden
Oregon (Democrat)
B

Sen. Gordon Smith
Oregon (Republican)
B

Rep. David Wu
Oregon District 01 (Democrat)
A

Rep. Gregory Walden
Oregon District 02 (Republican)
C

Rep. Earl Blumenauer
Oregon District 03 (Democrat)
A+

Rep. Peter DeFazio
Oregon District 04 (Democrat)
A

Rep. Darlene Hooley
Oregon District 5 (Democrat)
A

All these people still did better than Vitology's C-.

http://darfurscores.org/grades/oregon

Darfur is hardly my specialty, and to most people for that matter, but how about opening up Darfur to American adoptions, send in the marines for a mop up operation to take out the bad guys and also send Darfur American food and materiel?

You libs up for that?

Herb

Nope, no oil there! {Right Brain Response}

Sure, So long as there is a workable and attainable plan! {Left Brain Response}

Who do we want to win?

How many Marines would it take?

Do we even have that many available?

Who'd be in charge?

What would the goal be?

When would we leave?

What would a success look like and for how long would it have to be in place before we could leave?

Then what?

"Who do we want to win?"

Any and all innocent men, women and children.

That's the right thing to do.

My guess is that Mrs. Herb would give a few more kids a loving home.

Herb

I love how this topic started out as a topic about Clinton and as usual on this liberal infested board quickly turns to the war in Iraq and the same old same old about Bush.

Like how Herb turns EVERYTHING into the Abortion issue. It's funny how YOU MC say your an Independent yet your just like O'LIEly. EXTREME RIGHT to the core..... It's funny h ow you need FAUXNews and the RNC website to tell you how to think.

Extreme right? Saving innocent people? This shouldn't be about right or left, so don't try to spin it that way, Trixter.

And congratulations. You just made it through a post without one of your standard bigoted anti-faith comments.

Herb

Well, now that you've mentioned it don't be shocked when you get it!

Herb, look up "hyperbole"

You're in no position to criticize anyone about making exaggerated statements that have no literal meaning. That's your M.O. afterall.

"Double the approval rating"

I mean really.

bigoted anti-faith comments.

Thanks...

So did you minus the anti-faith.
And BTW...
YOUR really ignorant... I've stated NUMEROUS times that I'm a believer. Obviously YOUR not. You have NO compassion whatsoever for anyone that doesn't believe 100% of what you do.
You either can't read or you can't retain anything that you read. Is your IQ really that low.
COME ON!
The MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY attitude is very low brow. Bring yourself up Herb... You can do it...

If the stated goal was to take out Saddam, which I agreed with, why are we still there. Was Iraq more stable under this murderous dictator? Let's leave and let Iraq have a civil war like ours and let the victors lead.

Damn...
RBM very well said....

"Let's leave and let Iraq have a civil war like ours..."

And you guys think Darfur is a bloodbath? Wait until the dastardly Iranian president gets his hands on the Iraqi oil, too. Plus, he'll be that much closer to destroying Israeli cities.

We'd also likely see oil at $400 a barrel, while your environmentalist whacko pals prevent us from drilling at Anwar, or using nuclear power like my long-lost, formerly-socialist pals the French.

You leftist Einsteins have it all figured out.

Herbert the M.

Hey Trixter, you need to add a few hamsters to your brain, I clearly said in another post that I dont watch or listen to Fox news.

Infact I am one of those people who question anyone who post direct links to their websites(such as yourself)

as for that no spin guy, he is a jackass. same as those jackasses on Air America.

Keep that in mind when you attempt to generalize again.

"I'd like to see you hand-wringers do as well on a conservative board."

Tried that. Chicken shits kicked me off.

I was on a ULTRA-RIGHT board for a while and just like Insannity and Bimbo Hewitt they cut me off at the knees because it wasn't THEIR way.
So much for letting EVERYONE have there say.

"That's why the lame duck, unpopular Mr. Bush STILL has DOUBLE the approval ratings as the democrat-led Congress."

The ratings are low because the majority of Americans want to see some action from that Congress. Low ratings because they've not gotten to the business of just HAMMERING the Resident President.

Did you see Keith's "Special Comment" last night?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xtAja20kTCA&feature=bz301

Yep. Keith Olbermann is THE MANN!!

Keith Olbermann foamed at the mouth last night. Sometimes if you look closely, you can actually see the spittle coming out of his pie-hole.

He was really, really mad at his fellow lefties last night, though, including Geraldine Ferraro.

The democrats are eating their own.

Herb

Unlike Republicans, Democrats don't just go along with crap because they happen to be Democrats. If someone needs to be called out, then they get called out. Republicans on the other hand lie about it and act as if nothing is wrong. In fact, they are sometimes given a standing ovation!

"In fact, they are sometimes given a standing ovation!"

Yep, Herb does this all the time when he comments on a post by Mc74.

"Republicans on the other hand lie about it and act as if nothing is wrong."

Incorrect, yet again.

The ones calling for Larry Craig's resignation have been republicans.

Herb

No way.

The GOP has held the line on a lot of crap, and there were plenty of incidents where enough of the party knew stuff was going on, but also knew nobody that mattered knew, so it turned a blind eye.

There is more of that crap going on with the GOP than with the Democrats.

Who started the ethics reform? Yeah, that's right, Democrats. Not perfect --in fact, pretty annoying, but they don't have anywhere near the pain associated with them that the GOP does.

--->and the party is not eating their own. What is happening right now is we are having to deal with some Democrats that have forgotten what we stand for. They've done this for personal ambition and to some degree to preserve the establishment status quo.

It is the peoples party though. In the end, that will come out, the changes will happen because the people want them to happen. It just will take some time, that's all.

I listen to NPR. I listen to KPOJ. I even occasionally stomach the communist Ray Taliafero on KGO.

The truth is out on the MAJOR problem the democrats have, and it's all over the airwaves. That problem can be summed up in one word:

Hillary.

In the end, it'll be the ham-fisted democrats like Mrs. Clinton and her minions, with their 'scorched-earth,' 'take-no-prisoners,' 'win at all costs' policy, that will literally hand the '08 election to Mr. McCain.

That's because even if she were to win the democrat primary through her conniving ways, in the general election African-Americans will simply stay home...or better yet, vote for Mr. McCain in protest! The emancipating republican Mr. Lincoln would be proud!

And if Mrs. Clinton loses the democrat primary, her 'burn the house down' strategy will assure Mr. McCain wins. She ALREADY has stated publicly that only she and Mr. McCain are qualified to lead our nation. According to Mrs. Clinton, Mr. Obama isn't qualified to be president.

We don't even need Mr. Nader to do it for us this time, although this year he'll be helping us as well.

Mr. McCain will name at least several Supreme Court justices and the dastardly Roe v. Wade will be toast.

Hallelujah!

Herb

I could show you all the holes in your theory there, Herb. But really, it wouldn't make any difference to you would it? I mean you said it so it must be true, eh? And you'll keep saying it no matter what anyone shows you or explains to you or presents a different thing to consider - because this is how you feel. And it's what you WANT to have happen. And therefore, if you keep saying it enough times, you can just WILL it to happen by saying it enough times?

By the way, do you read or collect comic books? Your vernacular is so specific and the only other people I even hear speaking like you do are Gotham City Commissioners and people who wear capes. ( Except Freddie Mercury ).

But to address one thing you said - and I hear it mostly from Republicans; MAJOR problem that Democrats have - Hillary. What if she doesn't even get the nomination? Would you then agree that that MAJOR problem has been solved? I mean, if it's so " dastardly " to support someone who runs the machine like Hillary does, wouldn't you respect the Democrats more if they made choices to reflect their disdain for it? So ok - Hillary blows it and doesn't get the nomination. That leaves Obama.

And what EXACTLY do you think Republicans will try and do to hurt Obama's chances? Do you think they will take some high road and stick only to the issues and it will be a clean campaign? No. They will employ disinformation to a degree that SHOULD be 10 times as unsavory to you - since it will be your own party that's doing it.

But it will be " different " then, eh? You'll call it " Politics " or " Understandable " maybe even " accurate." Nwokie will swallow it all whole, of course. He'll ramble on in some Rain Man type logic.

But YOU, man. What will YOU do? Will you denounce and reject it? Or will you use words that stop short of that, because, you know, it's about appearances and staying some course? Showing any kind of dissent against your party would be some kind of twisted Unamerican thing to do, right?

That is so bizzare to me. I guess that's a fundamental difference; You are fine with just the appearance. I'm less so.

It's been a very long and divisive 8 years. Way too long and way too divisive. Either we've had enough or we haven't.

Guess we are about to find all that out here pretty quick.

I've had enough.

The line goes, just give us what we want and it will all be ok.

Is that really true Herb? If everybody just said, "OK, fuck it! Here you go." and handed you that issue on a silver platter, would everything be fine then?

Could we then just go back to work on the basic stuff hurting all of us right now? You know, those things that just get in the way of just living?

Oh for Buddha's sake. The frackin grooves are worn out on that album man so move on already! We get it and know were you stand so quit beating us to death with it!

Herb

Herb got it right this time. He hit the nail on the head.

CJ, I think it's really simple.

The more I read, the more sure I am about how it all works. If nothing else matters, then who you are does not matter, other people don't matter, rules don't matter, etc...

It's all about seeing a very specific set of things realized as fully as is possible. That's it, end of story.

This is the kind of thing that happens to people when they allow themselves to become defined by an issue or an ideology.

Right now it's pro-life nirvana! They are so close! Really only a judge or maybe two tops away from actually getting it done! Everything else falls shy of that, and that's the mindset of an issue or values voter.

Value judgments then essentially boil down to, "will this help the cause?", if so, then do what it takes to help make it happen and worry about the implications later, because it's just gotta happen now, before something else comes along and takes the focus.

That's why it comes up again and again. That's why divisive politics are everywhere right now too. If the issue is allowed even the briefest of breaks, then it could slip away as people realize it just doesn't have to get done right now and that maybe they can work on it and work on their own lives too.

This crap has built up a set of false choices in way too many people. It's really no different than the nut bag accosting people on the street.

You get no peace until you all are saved! Of course everybody knows there is no way in hell we all are gonna agree to be saved in exactly the way that nut bag wants so we put up with it for only so long and then somebody deals with it hard and it's over for a while.

Politically, these people have essentially said they are gonna keep spoiling things, making lives ugly, not allowing progress, and anything else they can do to force everybody to just let them have their way.

Not too much different from the little kid that just won't shut up about that new toy they want.

If dealing with abortion is so god dammed important, then they could step up to the plate, with the rest of the adults, and fix it good? It is completely possible to damn near eliminate abortion, if we could just work on it all together.

Holding out, like that little kid, is a silly all or nothing game that ends up costing us a lot of time and dollars that's getting really, really old.

Old enough to push back hard on. Really hard.

Think of it like this. You are the parent and that kid just won't shut up about a toy, but the toy is dangerous somehow, so it's just off the table period. Can't have it. Maybe the wife hates it, so you gotta choose between the noisy kid and your wife. Ugh...

Now, you try to make some deals with other toys right? Work the middle ground so everybody is happy and the family moves on. You know this is possible, but the kid just holds out big.

No dice. That kid cries and cries with no end to it all. It's all consuming to the point where it's just not possible to even discuss dinner without that damn toy coming up.

Eventually, out comes the belt and a pretty serious discussion of just who is in charge and who isn't. It ain't pretty, but the next day things are back to normal living. You can have a conversation, go play in the park, etc... life is worth living again.

That's what is about to happen over most of this divisive crap.

Maybe then, after the smack down, we can work on the abortion problem in a sane way, just like we should be doing for all our problems.

When we get there, the rest of the house can be put back in order so that life is just not such a bit of torture every single day.

Can't wait. Don't think it will be long.

No one has yet to point out the extent of McCain's flip flopping. In fact, McCain has more flip flops than a discount shoe store on the coast. BTW Herb, this includes abortion. McCain is adopting positions to gain the votes of people like you, but when push comes to shove, he doesn't believe in the newly adopted positions.
It doesn't matter since he isn't going to win in November, but check out these:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kQU0TF18ZfI

http://www.salon.com/mwt/broadsheet/2007/02/20/whatelse/index.html

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/campaigns/wh2000/stories/mccain082 499.htm

http://mediamatters.org/items/200802250007

http://downwithtyranny.blogspot.com/2008/03/which-is-more-important-mccains-flip .html

http://thinkprogress.org/2008/01/04/mccain-100-years/

Regardless of who wins the Democrat primary and regardless of how long it takes and how ugly it gets, McCain will be beaten by the Democrat. I will be here in November to remind you that once again, I am correct in my predicitons.

Vialogy got it right. He hit the nail on the head.

See, Vitalogy, you and Herb DO have something in common, so now we can all go ice skating in Hell

Go ahead you guys, try and wave away what Mrs. Clinton is doing to your own party.
In the meanwhile, Mr. Obama's current problems with the pastor of his church appear just a little too timely, given the Clinton team's desperation.

Coincidence that new racial attacks on Mr. Obama are now being unleashed, on the heels of Geraldine Ferraro's comments, plus a recent photo of Mr. Obama in an African clothing, along with PLENTY of other Clinton-esque attacks?

You guys under-estimate the Clintons. Their fingerprints are all over everything negative in the democrat campaign...to where she will even openly endorse the republican, rather than Mr. Obama.

ABC. Anyone but Clinton.

Herb

The smear about Obama's pastor is straight from the McCain camp, not Hillary. Get your facts straight.

Dream on!

Hillary is clearly the most threatened by the Obama candidacy.

If you can't see ALL the under the table AND over the table tactics being used by the Clintons, you are clueless.

Earth to Vitalogy: MRS. CLINTON SAID TO A LARGE PUBLIC AUDIENCE THAT MR. OBAMA IS NOT READY TO BE PRESIDENT...BUT MR. McCAIN IS!!!

Get YOUR facts straight. But be ready for a GOP president in 2009...it's coming as the leftists implode before our very eyes. And Mr. McCain will have to nary lift a finger.

Even the Obama campaign disagrees with you. The attacks are coming from Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Obama's supporters are now posting them on their website:

http://hillaryattacks.barackobama.com/

Herbert Milhous McCain

It doesn't look good for my guy....

Nobody's buying it anymore, Mr. Poseur.

Herb

You should know. Nobody has bought anything from you since Wayne.

Doesn't matter if your not buying it. I'm not buying YOUR EXTREME RIGHT crap!
When Johnny Mc and Obama go head to head I will make my decision. If Johnny brings it then I will vote for him just like I did DUHbya in 2000. If he can't then I'll cast my vote for Obama.
Don't like it? TOUGH!

"When Johnny Mc and Obama go head to head I will make my decision...If he can't then I'll cast my vote for Obama..."

The truth comes out. We knew it all along, Mr. republican.

Herb

"The attacks are coming from Mrs. Clinton and Mr. Obama's supporters are now posting them on their website"

I beg your pardon.

"an opinion piece in Friday's Wall Street Journal that was circulated by the campaign of Sen. John McCain."

THE TRUTH?
Ignorance is your middle name Herb. YOU just CAN'T read can you?

The TRUTH is....... YOUR IGNORANT!