FAUXNews is running this story and it looks like Rush is having some effect on things once again....

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/02/28/mccain-goofs-calls-himself-a-liberal/

This story on the FOX News Channel website is from the Associated Press. It also appears on the websites of ABC News, MSNBC, Reuters, LA Times and numerous others.

Stuff like this happens when you get old. This is why we can't afford to have an 80 year old president.

Yea, but its not as funny to Trixter unless he can call it Faux news and act like they made the story up.

"Yea, but its not as funny to Trixter unless he can call it Faux news and act like they made the story up."

Exactly.

McCain gets attacked by partisans for not being partisan enough. Trying to work with other people is somehow bad? This is truly disturbing. Go McCain!!!

I am not sure that a "liberal" -- or any rational person -- would be embracing someone like John Hagee. This blunder may lead to McCain losing the votes of every Catholic in the United States.

Add -- I agree Alfredo, he is one of the few Republicans consistently engaged in bi-partisan efforts.

Quote from the Catholic League article linked above:

For example, he [Hagee] likes calling it [the Catholic Church] ‘The Great Whore,’ an ‘apostate church,’ the ‘anti-Christ,’ and a ‘false cult system.’

Ouch! Not good...

Glad to see I'm not the only one who doesn't carry water for the pope.

While it has done some good, fact is, the Roman church has plenty of wrong doing in its past and present. And anyone who deems their leader infallible, as Romanists describe their pope on matters of morals and dogma, is setting themselves up big time, if not close to becoming downright blasphemous.

That's my opinion.

Herb

That's because you think your beliefs are right and everyone else is wrong. Personally, I think you're all nuts, just different kinds.

Atheists and assorted anti-faith bigots are in the minority.

http://www.asanet.org/cs/root/topnav/press/atheists_are_distrusted

Thank God.

Herb

I'm not an anti-faith bigot. I would never advocate that people not be allowed to hold whatever religious views they want or deny them the freedom to worship whatever it is they worship. But, I view people like you the same as I view the folks that claim they've been abducted on a UFO. Equally nuts just the same.

And as far as the one that's in the minority, it's YOU. I'm in the mainstream of society on most everything.

"I'm in the mainstream of society on most everything."

Well bully for you! But how boring it would be if everyone were in the mainstream. Herb adds a bit of spice to the recipe.

Aw, you're too kind, Magic_eye.

Herb

Yep, just like Luke laid out for them hound dog's. Just laid out waiting for someone to sniff it up and then wish the hell they hadn't!

Herb writes:

That's my opinion.


And it's nothing more. What's your religion and we'll bash on it for a while. I'm sure we can find something.

Yea, but its not as funny to Trixter unless he can call it Faux news and act like they made the story up.

WOW!

Herb has been very cautious not to let anyone know his brand of religion, which begs the question, why?

From content of his critiques of the doctrinal stances of other religions, I would say that he most likely non-denominational/evangelical Protestant. That would fit in well with him not using any denominational labels to describe himself.

Alfredo_t is very, very, close.

Denominational differences are kind of 'inside baseball' and I'm fairly sure that Chris would agree.

Along with a deep respect for the writings of various protestant writers like C.S. Lewis and Bonhoefer, were I to narrow it down to a few denominations, I appreciate the beauty of a liturgical worship style.

Along with the liturgy, I relate doctrinally toward churches like the more conservative Lutheran denominations. However, prophetically there are some different approaches and I particularly appreciate the Seventh Day Adventist view. That said, Baptists overall are pretty spot on, stressing both God's Grace along with the need to turn from our sin.

They all preach the Gospel Truth and my adherence is more of a preference than anything. For instance, some people like loud music in church, others don't. Bible-believing Christians share far more in common than where they differ. And that's the beauty of Christianity. It's much more than a religion...it's a relationship.

Herb

Fire and Brimstone kinda stuff then....?

If there's no fire and brimstone for some, you tell us where Hitler meets justice.

Herb

A: When he simultaneously bit the cyanide capsule and pulled the trigger.

Why hell is necessary

First, hell is necessary because human dignity demands it.
Virtually every human being believes that what we do and how we live matters.
Fyodor Dostoyevsky said, "If there is no immortality, then everything is permitted."

Second, hell is necessary because justice demands it. While the particulars may vary from person to person and society to society, there is universal agreement that wrong things must be punished and that evil must be judged.

Surveys revealed that after 9/11, the percentage of people who believe in hell increased from 64 percent to 71 percent.

Finally, hell is necessary because love demands it. God loves us so much and is so eager for us to love him, that he allows us the freedom not to love him back.

Peter Kreeft says, "Those who do not wish to love God must be allowed not to love Him. Those who do not want to be with God must be allowed to be separated from him."

The answer, then, to the question, "Why would a good God send people to hell?" is that he doesn't; but he will let people go there if they so choose.

Every day people choose to live their lives apart from God, and God allows them to do so; if they want to live apart from him for all eternity, he will allow them to do that, as well.

http://www.preachingtoday.com/sermons/outlines/whywouldagoodgodsendpeopletohell. html

Your discussion of hell reminded me of a story I read a while back.

Googled for it and found it:

------------------------------------

The following is *supposedly* an actual question given on a University of Washington chemistry mid-term. The answer by one student was so "profound" that the professor shared it with colleagues, via the Internet, which is, of course, why we now have the pleasure of enjoying it as well.

Bonus Question: Is Hell exothermic (gives off heat), or endothermic (absorbs heat)?

Most of the students wrote proofs of their beliefs using Boyle`s Law (gas cools when it expands and heats when it is compressed), or some variant.

One student, however, wrote the following:

First, we need to know how the mass of Hell is changing in time. So we need to know the rate at which souls are moving into Hell and the rate at which they are leaving. I think that we can safely assume that once a soul gets to Hell, it will not leave. Therefore, no souls are leaving.

As for how many souls are entering Hell, let`s look at the different Religions that exist in the world today. Most of these religions state that if you are not a member of their religion, you will go to Hell. Since there is more than one of these religions and since people do not belong to more than one religion, we can project that all souls go to Hell.

With birth and death rates as they are, we can expect the number of souls in Hell to increase exponentially. Now, we look at the rate of change of the volume in Hell because Boyle`s Law states that in order for the temperature and pressure in Hell to stay the same, the volume of Hell has to expand proportionately as souls are added.

This gives two possibilities:

1. If Hell is expanding at a slower rate than the rate at which souls enter Hell, then the temperature and pressure in Hell will increase until all Hell breaks loose.

2. If Hell is expanding at a rate faster than the increase of souls in Hell, then the temperature and pressure will drop until Hell freezes over.

So which is it?

If we accept the postulate given to me by Teresa during my Freshman year that, "it will be a cold day in Hell before I sleep with you", and take into account the fact that I slept with her last night, then number 2 must be true, and thus I am sure that Hell is exothermic and has already frozen over. The corollary of this theory is that since Hell has frozen over, it follows that it is not accepting any more souls and is therefore, extinct...leaving only Heaven thereby proving the existence of a divine being which explains why, last night, Teresa kept shouting "Oh my God."

If there's no fire and brimstone for some, you tell us where Hitler meets justice.


Same place DUHbya and the DICKster will.

Hell is made up to scare people. There's no proof a hell exists.

But if it did Vit just think if you were stuck there with Hitler, DUHbya and the DICKster....

I think that the Catholics have the most elaborate view of hell in all of theology. If they have any say in the matter, Hagee will be rewarded with his own special corner of Hades.

Beyond Alfredo_t, I have not seen any real examination of the Catholic position on this issue. Folks, Hagee asserts that the church collaborated with the Nazis. It is an assertion that hurts both Catholics and Jews. Forget the "whore" stuff, this is a really disgusting distortion of the truth.

Hagee goes further than just hating his fellow Christians. Though they also believe in the same God, and also consider Abraham their father, he wants to see every Muslim wiped off the face of the earth. Here he is in an interview on NPR's Fresh Air:

HAGEE: There are 1.3 billion people who follow the Islamic faith, so if you're saying there's only 15 percent that want to come to America or invade Israel to crush it, you're only talking about 200 million people. That's far more than Hitler and Japan and Italy and all of the axis powers in World War II had under arms. That is a massive number of people. So while we may define radical Islam as a minority, because there are so many, it is still an overpowering military potential.

GROSS: But what you said is that all Muslims have a mandate to kill Christians and Jews. Do you believe that?

HAGEE: Well, the Quran teaches that. Yes, it teaches that very clearly.

NPR

No, it does not, and any theology student could tell you that was a bald-faced lie. This is not only a falsehood, but it is the sort of rhetoric that has put our country in the position of having killed and tortured more Semitic people than any nation since Hitler. There is no value in this hateful screed in a world that must accept our differences and cooperate in an multi-lateral effort to root out terror.

Furthermore, a Presidential candidate who has an adopted daughter from a Muslim country, Pakistan, ought to distance himself from this hellfire bigotry. McCain needs to realize that these are the very folks who would assault, imprison or kill his own kin to assuage their fears.

Behind his carefully crafted "Zionist Hick" persona, Hagee is simple-minded paranoid, a nihilist and a bigot. He wants to come off as a buddy to the state of Israel, but by using the Holocaust as a political football, he shows his hand.

He can thinly disguise it under all his other vitriol, but he hates everyone, including Jews, especially the liberal gay ones. After all, in his feverish view of Armageddon, his beloved Israel is nuked. This is something that most people, including atheists and gentiles, have worked for generations to avoid.

If one were to flesh out all the details of his need for the end of the world, one would also have to note a few excepts from this 2006 story in the Pittsburgh Post-Gazette:

"This is a religious war that Islam cannot -- and must not -- win," Mr. Hagee wrote in a recent book, "Jerusalem Countdown," which focuses on what he says is a coming nuclear showdown with Iran. "The end of the world as we know it is rapidly approaching. ... Rejoice and be exceeding glad -- the best is yet to be."

PPG

Pastor, I see no reason to test out your whole "lifeboat" theory of God. I believe that our world is made better by Christlike Christians. These are not a bunch of pious sadistic armchair laymen who delight in massive suffering and pain night after night on the television -- between your sermons.

"Kill everyone and Jesus will come back" is a really scary idea in principle, and as we have painfully discovered, it is certainly not sound foreign policy. We are America. We must not engage in crusades. We must engage in justice. Have they thought for a moment that a "savior" might not waste time on able bodied people who refused to do his humanitarian work?

The God of Hagee has no love. Instead of feeling any compassion whatsoever for his fellow man, or pledging support from his massive non-profit financial empire, he has a whole other view of Hurricane Katrina. From Fresh Air:

GROSS: I just want to ask you one question based on one of your sermons that -- and this isn't about Israel. You said after Hurricane Katrina that it was an act of God, and you said "when you violate God's will long enough, the judgment of God comes to you. Katrina is an act of God for a society that is becoming Sodom and Gomorrah reborn." Do you still think that Katrina is punishment from God for a society that's becoming like Sodom and Gomorrah?

HAGEE: All hurricanes are acts of God, because God controls the heavens. I believe that New Orleans had a level of sin that was offensive to God, and they are -- were recipients of the judgment of God for that. The newspaper carried the story in our local area that was not carried nationally that there was to be a homosexual parade there on the Monday that the Katrina came. And the promise of that parade was that it was going to reach a level of sexuality never demonstrated before in any of the other Gay Pride parades. So I believe that the judgment of God is a very real thing. I know that there are people who demur from that, but I believe that the Bible teaches that when you violate the law of God, that God brings punishment sometimes before the day of judgment. And I believe that the Hurricane Katrina was, in fact, the judgment of God against the city of New Orleans.

GROSS: So I know you're very opposed to homosexuality, but you think that the whole city was punished because of things like the forthcoming Gay Pride parade.

HAGEE: This is true. All of the city was punished because of the sin that happened there in that city.

Not a word about the role of his huge congregation in relief efforts, not a hint of responsibility to comfort the stricken, not an ounce of compassion for anybody. In fact -- even if you were living on the Gulf Coast, and were among the many straight-white-law-abiding-gay-hating-John-Hagee-viewers who lost everything -- he thought you folks "deserved" catastrophe.

Between the lines, what he is saying is that gays -- as well as the unlucky, the rescuers, the handicapped, the elderly, the poor, the blacks, etc. -- deserve anything bad that happens to them because his "God of destruction" parcels out justice through nature. Why then, Pastor, do so many God-fearing folks -- who believe the same small-minded things that you do -- die in tornadoes?

Hagee has prejudice, bigotry and fear enough for everyone. His attitudes remind us that the KKK and most neo-Nazi organizations are rooted in Christian pseudo-doctrines. His disdain and disregard for African-Americans has been exhibited over and over. Another glaring example can be found in the Post-Gazette article:

Mr. Hagee also upset black leaders. To help students seeking odd jobs, his church newsletter, The Cluster, advertised a "slave" sale. "Slavery in America is returning to Cornerstone," it said. "Make plans to come and go home with a slave." Mr. Hagee apologized but, in a radio interview, protested about pressure to be "politically correct" and joked that perhaps his pet dog should be called a "canine American."

I just have one question of the good Senator from Arizona. To keep John young, hip and honest, I will text message him right now:

WTF WWJD?

(Herb is busily and excitedly packing his bags and heading to San Antonio)

Nixon will be so jealous, Hagee could be Herbbocrite's new hero and soul mate!

The HUCKster and Hagee on the 2012 ballot!

The HUCKster and Hagee on the 2012 ballot!

How about Hagee-Huckabee?

They may be a tad liberal for my tastes, but they'd nominate some terrific Supreme Court justices. naral and the aclu would be shaking in their boots and we'd have Roe v. Wade overturned in no time!

Herbert Hagee Huckabee

we'd have Roe v. Wade overturned in no time!

And abortions would still be happening....