That's it really. What's your process? How do you get to, "Yep, I agree with that!"

#1, if its something I personally know.
#2, Is it from a source, I know to usually be reliable.
#3, Is it something, that seems reasonable, from info I already know.
#4, If its important enough, I research the issue.

Too easy. I listen to Rush, Hannity, Savage and Ann, then support the opposite.

If they take the time to note, even briefly, how they got to their conclusion - that'll catch my attention. I need a bit of logic to follow. Not just a conclusion. Overstating things or oversimplifying things are usually a red flag for me. I see that as a dodge that people do in order to try and play on emotions and hope that they don't get questioned past their " obvious " passionate stance.

The ability to answer a question counts for a lot to me too. That penchant for pretending to answer a question ( but not really doing it as to avoid causing any possible voters to look elsewhere ) is noticed by me when then don't really answer a question. The debates were full of them. The candidates that answered the questions posed, most directly, I found myself trusting that they were telling the truth the most.

People that harp on one particular issue, to a degree that only I expect to be bothered by it ( re; it's my own issue ) I have a hard time trusting.

Finally, if someone is open to another interpretation and is willing to at least engage in the discussion of it, that counts for a lot. People who pretend not to read follow up posts and avoid discussion of just about any kind, really, can't be trusted to tell the truth. Why whould they? They have already made up their mind. Having to publically state that they have either had their mind changed OR that another has had an effect on them would be cause for, in their world, weakness. People who see that as being weak are lying to themselves to a degree that I just don't have the inclination to try and bring out of their long-termed self-inflicted exile. ( Contrary to recent attempts of that very thing by me ).

I could go on and on - but being long winded makes me look like somethign different than I actually feel.

So I'll stop....any second now....here I go...almost stopping....

You know what else I DO like?...kidding

...shutting up now....here I go...not talking...

*KOFF*

You could just do the opposite of what Herb post's. I think Herb's favorite movie is probably "Dodgeball".

If authority says it, I usually assume it's not truth.

For years I knew that if I voted against any bill supported by the aclu or John Kitzhaber, I was right.

Now, all I need do is vote for those supported by National Right to Life and the NRA.

Herb

"Dodgeball"

I guess if Herb can dodge the answers to the many question that have been asked of him here over the years that maybe just maybe he can dodge a wrench being thrown at him?

Oh wait that wrench hasn't been thrown yet but will the day that Obama is sworn in in Jan of 09.

I'll gladly enjoy seeing Mr. Obama named president over Mrs. Clinton, who would do far more damage to our country. Besides, if he were named our commander in chief, we'll have significant gridlock in a year or two anyway. Bring it on.

Herb

Hey, hey, HEY!

This is the truth thread. Thanks for the posts so far. Let's not get bogged down in personal crap, or who might kick whose ass politically.

Not the point.

Think of it like this. There are lots of metrics that people use to commit to something being true, or at least reach agreement. Knowing something about that helps know others --might even help talking to them.

That's where I was really going.

So far, we've got some interesting answers. There is more emotion in the answers, so far, than I thought!

Clearly, at this stage, another persons conviction carries a LOT of weight! Interesting no?

(hope so)

So, let's talk about this truth stuff some. Do the answers have merit, flaws, resonate?

For me personally, the type of person matters more than I thought. Some of what CJ posted makes a lot of sense! Didn't really know that prior --glad I do now.

Carry on!

This is where I miss my mom.

Well, she loves you. That's absolutely true.

I just pick ANYTHING that Herb and his EXTREME RIGHT is against. That way I know 99% of America will behind my decision. What's good for America is what's good for me. The my way or the highway GANG/CULT is not MY way.
Very simple choice really.

I guess I've really never thought about the actual process of evaluating.

I suppose I consider things like; the source, the subject, my knowledge of it, and how does it wash in my (feeble) mind.

I can't say I have a set process for it.

Look for information on how they reached their conclusion, and then look for classic logical fallacies in how they arrived at that conclusion. (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fallacy)

Lastly, note and disregard arguments based solely on emotion.

Are you saying there is no emotional truth then?

Gut instinct and common sense have done pretty good for me!

Emotional truth? You can't handle the truth!


Shadows are falling and I've been here all day
It's too hot to sleep time is running away
Feel like my soul has turned into steel
I've still got the scars that the sun didn't heal
There's not even room enough to be anywhere
It's not dark yet, but it's getting there

Well my sense of humanity has gone down the drain
Behind every beautiful thing there's been some kind of pain
She wrote me a letter and she wrote it so kind
She put down in writing what was in her mind
I just don't see why I should even care
It's not dark yet, but it's getting there

Well, I've been to London and I've been to gay Paree
I've followed the river and I got to the sea
I've been down on the bottom of a world full of lies
I ain't looking for nothing in anyone's eyes
Sometimes my burden seems more than I can bear
It's not dark yet, but it's getting there

I was born here and I'll die here against my will
I know it looks like I'm moving, but I'm standing still
Every nerve in my body is so vacant and numb
I can't even remember what it was I came here to get away from
Don't even hear a murmur of a prayer
It's not dark yet, but it's getting there.

Not Dark Yet by Bob Dylan

As far as a process ... these days, I'm just happy that the country as a whole makes it through the day with such poor leadership run amok ... as far as a process ... these days, I can't believe there is room for analysis anymore, because there is no common sense in government and a distinct lack of common sense in the most vocal political extremists. Bring me tomorrow I pray and don't let George Bush fuck things up any worse than he has already.

Well hurry on sundown
See what tomorrow brings
Hurry on sundown
See what tomorrow brings
Well it may bring war
Any old thing
Well look into your mind's eye
See what you can see
There's hundreds of people
Like you and me

Hurry On Sundown by Dave Brock

I refuse to accept the view that mankind is so tragically bound to the starless midnight of racism and war that the bright daybreak of peace and brotherhood can never become a reality.... I believe that unarmed truth and unconditional love will have the final word. ~Martin Luther King, Jr.

What is truth for me is not everyone else’s truth. I define my truth by my circumstances, experiences and lots of intangibles. I can border my truth or leave it unbridled.

So, it's relative then.

Do you hold anything absolute, if so, what kinds of things?

2+2=4 -- That's true for everybody, at least everybody we know. Death is another one. Good stuff might happen after we die here, but we will absolutely die.

Are those kinds of truth different from love or maybe things like rights of man?

For me personally, there are absolutes --known bullet proof truths. They are all consistent, do not self-reference, logical (no fallacies), true at all times, etc...

(not many of those)

There are factual truths. Maybe not true at all times, but do not violate the absolutes, and share their properties. My wallet is in my back pocket right now. Verifiable, true, but not always true.

Emotional truths are something I'm thinking over. Have already gotten here:

A true emotion is one expressed because it needs to be --demanding, undeniable, common to all healthy people. It is not expressed for any other reason --that's self-serving emotion, and something I believe to be false.

False, like lies are false. Self-lies, lies to others, etc...

Ignorance, when mixed with emotion is true, but dangerous. This is why we must share with one another. Knowledge is not only power, but very likely sanity!

After reading this great thread, I'm gonna put another dangerous one out there:

If we don't know any different, and that's simple ignorance, not being stupid, and believe something to be true, then it's a personal truth. That kind of covers what Chris was getting at. Thinking on that one some, but thought I would share.

How I get there is for another post. Still sorting some of it out. --at least that which I can sort out!

How about this personal philosophy:

How can you expect to be honest with others if you cannot first be honest with your own self.

There are a lot of intangible thigns that come into play too. Sometimes I don't even think about them until I realize that someone was untruthful and then I can often go back and see EXACTLY where I was deceived and for what purpose. And while it's too late, sometimes, it's still important, to me. ( But then I get into scheming and plotting and holding a grudge - and that's not healthy. So I gotta watch that part of myself ).

First off, I think that postmodernism (the idea that "truth" is a cultural illusion) is a bunch of B.S.

I believe that the scientific method is the best tool that humans have developed for evaluating truth. This works very well when trying to answer questions that deal with physics, medicine, mathematics, etc. The scientific method has a great track record in that it helped to bring about all of the modern conveniences that we take for granted, including the computers that we are using to participate on this forum. However, the questions are about things like culture, ethics, the economy, or politics, one is dealing with systems that are too complicated to model, and the the scientific method becomes difficult to apply.

If the scientific method can't be used, then one has to look at the potential motivations behind the people or organization making a claim, and one has to see where that claim fits in with what is already known.

Missing I’d probably agree that in many ways my truth would be relative in many ways, but that always seems to get me trouble with the more conservative believing traditions.

For me there is faith. Yes the spiritual kind.

It's certainly weighs in on my personal thinking but doesn't deny logical and scientific proof. It doesn't separate sacred and secular.

It’s a faith, yes in God. I acknowledge and believe in God. But many spiritual traditions do as well and to me they all have their place.

There are black and white truths no doubt. But there are subtle truths that linger more grey and aren’t as easily understood.

Not sure I’m making much sense.

Chris, you are making a great deal of sense. I believe that research is the root of truth, but I will also concede that there are few absolutes. Sometimes, one simply must have faith, not only in the intangibles, but the facts as well.

I also agree with Alfredo about the scientific method. Sometimes, you have to approach a subject like an archaeological dig. You have to sift for hours to find one concrete fact. If you aren't satisfied or convinced by the first argument, move your shovel and dig again.

However, accepting concrete absolutes can be an uncomfortable process. I really love how Chickenjuggler put it:

"Having to publicly state that they have either had their mind changed OR that another has had an effect on them would be cause for, in their world, weakness. People who see that as being weak are lying to themselves to a degree that I just don't have the inclination to try and bring out of their long-termed self-inflicted exile."

To follow up on what Andy brought to the table, here is a classic from Dr. Winston O'Boogie:

I'm sick and tired of hearing things
From uptight, short-sighted, narrow-minded hypocrites
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth

I've had enough of reading things
By neurotic, psychotic, pig-headed politicians
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth

No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of Tricky Dicky
Is gonna Mother Hubbard soft soap me
With just a pocketful of hope
Money for dope
Money for rope

I'm sick to death of seeing things
From tight-lipped, condescending, mama's little chauvinists
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth now

I've had enough of watching scenes
Of schizophrenic, ego-centric, paranoid prima donnas
All I want is the truth now
Just gimme some truth

No short-haired, yellow-bellied, son of Tricky Dicky
Is gonna Mother Hubbard soft soap me
With just a pocketful of soap
Its money for dope
Money for rope

All I want is the truth now
Just gimme some truth now
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth
All I want is the truth
Just gimme some truth

"How can you expect to be honest with others if you cannot first be honest with your own self."

Oh yeah. This is important big time.

I would add, you really don't know if you are being honest with others, if you cannot know you are being honest with yourself! So you might mean well, but actually do a lot of harm, and not know it. Messy, messy.

**Reaching a state where you know when you are being honest with yourself, is one of the key things necessary to completely self-identify and also reason at your fullest.

I'm beginning to realize a whole lotta people don't get there.

Missing I think integrity is also a key factor.

When we choose things that are ethically against our own personal value system I think we look over our shoulder more often looking for the hammer to fall. So we use deceptive maneuvers that eventually catch up with us because we chose to compromise our integrity.

I did this a few years ago and it cost me a friendship of 10 years. I regret it to this very day.

Yeah, I agree.

I also don't think you can get integrity without achieving a very high degree of self-honesty. Gotta know who you really are, if things are gonna really matter right?

That's not easy --as anyone, who has worked their way down that path knows. Given that, it's easier to just latch on to others --as role models, and deal that way.

IMHO, that's where strength of character comes from --at least in part. If somebody has come to grips with who they are, I believe they have a higher degree of mental energy to apply elsewhere, and that makes them strong. The clarity that comes from self-acceptance, shows as a distinct and vital character.

Truth is a term that doesn't apply well to emotion. There are no false or true emotions... emotions simply *are*. Our interpratation of those emotions can be true or false, but that interpretation is colored by our wants, needs and beliefs (and other emotions). For example, one commonly misinterpreted emotion is love - a person might *think* they are in love when in fact they are feeling one or more other strong emotions, coupled with the desire to *be* in love.

Interesting.

I agree, BTW.


Well, what about emotions that are expressed for self-serving reasons?

What I was getting at was emotions can weight into a value judgement of some kind. That person might weigh all of that and accept something as true, or valid.

So, the emotions they feel, or express, or read from others than can either be valid ones or invalid ones, where a "true" emotion is one that's an accurate expression of the state of mind of the person. ie: real

A false one is contrived somehow.

It's probably true that emotions can't be quantified and reasoned through like other things can, but their impact on those things where we don't have a full compliment of facts to reason with, does warrant some characterization of them as true / false -- maybe invalid / valid, doesn't it?

How to validate truth? Go to the prime source. Next: secondary sources. Be sure to check out what the opposing argument is. Then use your own good sense.

Take all information with a grain of salt. Use your own judgment. Don't rely on the opinions of so-called "experts". Everyone, even scientists, has bias built into their decision making process. We're all human.

If you're convinced something is true, beware! Don't be lazy. Check out the other side of "the truth". Play devil's advocate. The truth only comes out after it's been through the fire of looking at all sides.