http://politicalticker.blogs.cnn.com/2008/02/14/mccains-marine-son-returns-from- iraq-2/

"Hi Dad!"

(firm strong handshake and awkward hug)

"Why the hell did you vote against banning torture?!"

(very awkward pause)

"Sorry Dad. I was just wondering with what you went through and all..."

(very awkward pause)

"Congratulations on the nomination Pops! Hey, let's go get a beer."

(sigh of relief with residual guilty shoulders)

"We'll talk about it later..."

Hi Dad!"

(firm strong handshake and awkward hug)

"Why the hell did you vote against banning torture?!"

Son, I did it, to protect you and all of your fellow servicemen, to let the bad guys know, if they refuse to conform to acceptable practices, there will be consequences!

"But Dad, then if they had tortured me, you could not have complained. as they were only doing what we were doing."

"Well, son, I told you to join the Navy, but you chose the Marines, so you knew what to expect."

So being able to complain makes you happy.

In WWII, when after the Battle of the Bulge, it was thought that the SS had murdered over a hundred US soldiers at Malmondy (later it was determined, that probably didn't hapen" Gen Eisenhower ordered no SS prisoners be taken alive for a week, in retaliation. The order was even put in writting.

*Plonk!*

This is a no-win, worst case scenario Nwokie. If torture is bad (and you can bet that it is, otherwise we would have never realized Geneva), then it's just bad.

Two wrongs do not make a right.

When you get to the point where it's one of those "mamma says" kinds of truisms working against you, you've not got the high ground.

"Two wrongs do not make a right."

How selective the left is. We don't hear 'Two wrongs do not make a right' when it comes to abortion.

Just crickets chirping.

Herb

"Just crickets chirping."

Those are in your head.

Hey Herb, would you take the dish?

Herb...
INSTEAD of jacking all the threads with abortion and Bible thumpin' why don't you start your own thread and LEAVE the other threads alone! It seems like those are YOUR ONLY issues.
GET SOME NEW MATERIAL!!!!!

First of all, the main source of contention, is that the US may have "waterboarder" some terrorists.

There are two arguments here, 1. Is waterboarding tortute. and 2. Is there ever justification for it.

I have stated a legitimate POW can not be treated badly. Period.

However illegal combatants, have fewer rights than a POW, and consequently can be treated more harshly. I and many others don't consider waterboarding torture, it causes no permanant harm. The US has also not signed the 3rd Geneva convention, which does grant more rights to "Illegal combatants". As a soldier my first duty is to complete a mission, secondly is the safety and welfare of troops assigned to me. If causing an illegal combatant some momentary unpleasantness helps to fullfill my mission, or save some of my troops, I'm going to do it. I had rather deal with my concises that write letters to the next of kin.

"I have stated a legitimate POW can not be treated badly. Period.

However illegal combatants, have fewer rights than a POW, and consequently can be treated more harshly."

I defer to Nwokie. I also understand that spies have long been segregated out of POW populations and treated differently.

Herb

Humans are humans regardless of label.

Absolutely.

Nope, don't agree with that. Some folks because of their actions, lose the right to be considered human.

Nice in theory, democrats.

However, if you're the one on an airplane and have to deal with dastardly evil-doers, don't tell me you wouldn't want them taken out, pronto...and you wouldn't worry too much if they mess their pants in the process. And if their pals know of a guy who's going to hurt many others, don't tell me you're not going to twist some arms. Either that, or let the Israelis have a friendly 'talk' with them.

Again, what part of 'innocent life' do you liberals not understand?

Herb

Herb, have you ever considered for a second that the so-called "terrorist" that we take out, that every so often one of them is completely innocent? For being one to claim they defend innocent life, you're awfully selective.

Please don't question my desire about defending innocent life. I am completely sincere and want NO harm to any innocents.

Riddle me this, Batman. You have dastardly terrorists willing to slice throats or blow up hundreds of innocent people like in the Spain train attack.

You're telling me that you're willing to give evil-doers, who have no reservation about blowing themselves and others up, the kid glove treatment?

No wonder they don't fear us. Dr. Savage happens to be right on this one. These terrorists will hire a Columbia law grad and tie the hands of those who defend us.

Herb

Good grief!

Not supporting the idea of people torturing other people is not giving the terrorists the kid glove treatment.

It's quite possible to lean on them really hard and not torture them. That's what we should be doing.

And here's a noodler for you:

If somebody is willing to die in order to get something done, torture just isn't gonna deliver anything good! Think about it.

We've no assurance the info obtained would solve the problem (and if it were me, I would structure the attack such that no member really has what it takes to deliver said info).

They have an extremely high motive to provide bad information. If it sounds good, they might get a break and or easier death, right? (Again, if it were me, I would have said info ready to deliver.)

They might actually relish the torture. Think of it as a sacrifice for the greater good. The worse it hurts here, the better their status in the holy land in the after life. That's a very real proposition for these guys.

Finally, given no immediate danger, what good is torture doing for us?

It's a no-win guys. All you are doing is peddling fear and ignorance. Most of the world isn't buying it any more.

When we change up the white house, we are going to deal with this crap, one moron at a time. Our global cred will build back up and these discussions will be seen as rabid support for a fear monger and war monger.

---and everybody gets due process. EVERYBODY.

Go read our history as to why. I can't believe we are even talking about this shit. If this were so cut 'n dried, easy cheezy, how come we don't have a legal definition for "enemy combatant"?

Just because someone is willing to do something bad, doesn't make them a superman.

A lot of people that have done real horrible stuff, fold when the cops show up.

You keep using that word "torture", when no one has proposed torture, giving someone rough treatment, and having a good cop, bad cop routine can be very beneficial. No everybody doesn't get Due Process, if I'm in the field, and I see someone I even remotly think is a terrorist, he/she is gonna have a very short life span.

"It's quite possible to lean on them really hard and not torture them."

Nwokie might be rolling his eyes at that one, and he and several others on this board know infinitely more than I do on this matter.

I don't know what this would look like. I mean, if we've taken away many procedures, what's left?True liberals from what I understand have a problem with sleep deprivation, putting such dastardly evil-doers in a cool chamber, or even playing them dreadful and loud rap music.

Is there even a general consensus among democrats of what's inside the box and what's not allowable?I wish some Israelis could weigh in here. Those guys seem to have a handle on this type of terror, since they've been dealing with it since 1948.

Herbert Milhous Kissinger Netanyahu

Best I can offer Herb is that I do know several Israeli Army (a high school buddy lives in Israel) and have had an ex-Israeli military officer as a teacher as a youth in religious school, but anti-terror activities are handled by the Mossad, and they are primarily covert so don't expect them to pop into our little corner of the net.

The Institute for Intelligence and Special Tasks
ha-Mossad le-Modiin ule-Tafkidim Meyuhadim

Formerly known as the Central Institute for Coordination and the Central Institute for Intelligence and Security, Mossad was formed on 01 April 1951. Mossad was established by then Prime Minister David Ben Gurion, who gave as Mossad's primary directive: "For our state which since its creation has been under siege by its enemies. Intelligence constitutes the first line of defence...we must learn well how to recognise what is going on around us."

They clearly understood what was required to protect the homeland, unlike Bush and Co. whom clearly didn't have a clue when our homeland was attacked by mostly Saudi terrorists of al Queda. Instead of focusing on the problem, we went into Iraq. Clearly a misguided and mismanaged effort. For all the lives and money we have wasted, we are no further in defeating the real enemy. In fact, we only invited them to fight us in a second theater instead of focusing on Afghanistan and Homeland Security. The Mossad has made its share of mistakes, but I agree with you, they "get it" and IMO clearly Bush and the Republicans do not.
http://www.globalsecurity.org/intell/world/israel/mossad.htm

Thanks for the information, Andy. That reminds me of the time I heard the Israeli hawk Moshe Dayan speak and was really impressed.

I'm sure your friend with connections could teach us a thing or two about defeating terror. I read that after some hijackings, it was the Israelis who first re-inforced cockpit doors. End of problem.

Herb

A little over a year ago I attended my friends sons wedding which was held in L.A. Many of the groom's friends came to L.A. from Israel to attend. I had the opportunity to talk with these young men, mostly dual citizenship American Israeli Jews. They likened international terror to the gang problems in American cities, only on steroids. American politics IMO has been slow to grasp this concept. We can not fight today's problems with legacy tactics.

"They likened international terror to the gang problems in American cities, only on steroids."

Exactly right.