Not a fun issue, I know. It's just as worthy as any other topic though.

Can we just start out with some facts before it gets too emotional?

I know I could find out some of this on my own, but I'd rather keep it conversational for just a bit; For instance, what are some stats? How many abortions have been performed per year in the past decade or so? Are they trending up or down?

And you can answer this or not, I totally respect a non-answer if you just don't want to talk about it - but - you know what's coming; Anyone here ever had to make or help make that choice? What were the circumstances?

OH MY GOD!!!!!!!
CJ do you know what you just did???
Herb will be all over this like flies on shit!!!!
Emotions aside....
This is going to be a blood bath!

Also, what exactly was happening when it was illegal?

What's your take on RU486 ( Morning After Pill )? Is it the same position as abortion for you?

Do any religious beliefs play a discernable part in your position? That is to say, do Agnostics or Atheists find it as equally terrbile as, say, those who go to Church?

Well, to be honest Trixter, I wouldn't have even thought to create the topic had not every other thread already been peppered with it. So I figured, hey, let's just talk about it. See where it goes.

Haven't had to help make that choice. Know people that have though.

The morning after pill, I consider a contraceptive. IMHO, it's early enough and how it acts really makes all the more subtle matters involved moot.

Religion does not play a significant part for me at this time. At the beginning there is a potential for a person, at the end, there is a person. It used to though. At that time, my reasons for my positions were different, but my core position remained mostly unchanged, namely:

somewhere in there, a self forms and when that happens, I think it's murder. Before that time, no self - no murder.

Despite the above, the mother and child are intertwined. Tech must then be considered. The more advanced the tech, the more viability is seen earlier in the process.

Viability is a key differentiator for me. Early on, non viable abortions are these days pre-self, particularly very early on. No brainer. Those are choices for the mother to make. Later on, I still think it's a choice, but one that is no longer one made easily. Professionals should be involved and options weighed.

At any time, the mother could choose to end both lives, therefore she has absolute control of the situation. It's costly however.

I do not consider this topic a "nothing else matters" kind of issue. It's something we need to work hard on --really hard, but not at the expense of all else.

Because the mother does have control of things, the reality is abortions will absolutely happen.

No answer, at this time and with our current level of theological and scientific understanding, is acceptable unless it embodies:

-Alternatives! (adoption)

-Education (Prevention, management)

-Empowerment for the mothers to be (Assistance)

-Prevention (Technology surrounding this, male / female birth control options, etc...)

-Choice. (until such time as we know more, we are left in a state of ambiguity and that means choice depending on one's beliefs)

Such a solution, embraced by a significant number of people, maybe backed by law, would cut the number of abortions to a small fraction of what they are today. Given:

I've never met anybody that is "pro-abortion" as in, "Hey! That's a killer option, let me help."

It then is rational to say this is a shared goal among all people. Lower numbers means less of a problem, leaving us to focus on greater understanding and other pressing issues.

Also given the above, the male role is one of empowerment, not regulation. Not our scene, not really our control. Empowerment means working on solutions holistically, bearing in mind men need to give the same respect concerning bodies as we expect to receive in like kind.

It also means men need to be socially responsible and aware of their options and willing to contribute to the pool of ready alternatives and education.

Anyone ever had their mind changed on the topic?

Yes!

Early on, before I really thought through things. (swallowing dogma whole --sucks, but hey, we've all done it!)

Bought the whole, "It's a sin and it's bad and just think of all the unborn babies!" bit.

Well, some real adult life kind of changed that. Really, we see women often in the position where they just have to deal and the guy does not. Rape, incest, and other ugly things forced me to ask about accountability.

Should somebody just have to deal, given the out?

Really, in a lot of life situations, the answer is "no". Also, most self-respecting people wouldn't just deal on principle and sanity alone. This issue is no different.

If it is a sin, how come we are not really pushing the alternative and education bit? Lack of access to contraception, general sexual ignorance, help for mothers to be and a whole batch of other things just didn't add up.

Seems to me, we need to take the high ground in these matters and a lot of it isn't structured that way.

At the end of the day, that's not honoring God, and that failure is a net loss over all and I'm quite sure that's not the overall goal.

If it is, well then it brings the whole matter of faith and it's merits into question as how can one be expected to have conviction surrounding something that may be doing a lot of harm?

Now, those were some of my experiences and the religious environment had it's problems. Granted that. However, many of those problems continue to manifest today, and a lot of these people are pushing pushing the issue!

If we are supposed to try to be better, we've gotta have outs; otherwise, it's a setup for failure in general. That's a waste of time, no matter what one's beliefs are.

It broke down for me with most of that, leaving choice as an option. Getting married and having a close relationship with my wife and other women (friends and family) also brought perspective.

It's a lot like talking to a gay person for the first time. You realize that perhaps you just don't know some stuff!

BTW: Being humble, as in knowing you might not know some stuff, accepting that, dealing with that, and moving forward through that, is possibly the one key element of character that survived my early troubled religious times! It's a good thing, selfless and empowering, if one just wants to grow and get better, the not knowing is not a big deal.

So, pride then is an issue with this topic as well. BIG ASS ISSUE, IMHO. Many people let what they own, who they hang with and other silly things define who they are. This is a mistake, and coming to terms with this issue was one of the bumps in the road for me personally getting past pride.

Chickenjuggler, you're to be congratulated for starting this thread. It's a topic often avoided, but people on all sides agree it is important.

Herb

Are you streaming tonight?

Here maybe?

http://community.loudcity.com/stations/salem-fm/tune_in

Dont care, its not my body. Kill away.

And you know Herb I really really want to come along side you 100 percent on this. I wish this were a non-topic, meaning there would be no need for its discussion because we would have solved it long ago.

My wife gives some good insight, well I think it's good, but she says the initial responsibility lands literally in the lap of the man. No sperm in the egg, no pregnancy, no need for abortion.

I kidded her the other day and said, instead of making abortion illegal lets make sex illegal. All sex. That would end not only abortions but also plenty of marriages and a few other things.

But my point was to try and see the bigger picture. I guess I'm still defining that for myself. Sometimes I read Herb's posts and I have to say it does tug at me at times. But then I take that step back and say, but what about the aids pandemic in Africa? What about Darfur and what about our own working poor? The several million young women involved in sex trafficking. Abortion is one of many important issues.

I hope this thread remains civil.

As far as stats go I think Herb quoted about 1 million abortions happen yearly in the US.

Country	1985	1990	1995	2000	2003	2004
Bulgaria	132041	144644	97023	61378	48035	—
Canada	60956	71092	70549	105427	103768	—
Cuba	138671	147530	83963	76293	65628	67277
Finland	13832	12232	9884	10930	10709	11091
France	173335	161129	—	—	—	—
Germany1	—	145267	97937	134609	128030	129650
Greece	180	1216	—	—	—	—
Hungary	81970	90394	76957	59249	53789	52539
Iceland	705	714	807	987	951	—
India	583704	596345	—	—	—	—
Israel	18406	15509	—	18689	19671	19712
Italy	210192	161285	134137	—	124118	—
Japan	550127	456797	343024	341146	319831	301673
New Zealand	7130	11173	—	16103	18511	—
Norway	14599	15551	13672	14635	13888	14071
Poland	135564	59417	559	138	174	199
Russia	—	4103425	2766362	—	1,797,5672	1797567
Sweden	30838	37489	—	30980	34473	34454
United Kingdom	180983	184092	167297	197366	—	—
United States	1588600	1429577	1210883	1328000	1287000	—

I recently read that abortion numbers are down.
But check out your chart. China isn't on the list. There, forced abortions and sterilizations are government policy. And China is a very big country, indeed. And speaking of big countries, why is India showing no abortions since 1995?

Herb

No, I've never had to make the choice or help make the choice or been involved in the decision. I know some people that have though.

Yes, I've changed my mind about it.

When I was younger and more "rebellious" I thought "Hey, it's the woman’s choice so everybody else can go pack sand"

At this point in my (our) life, my wife and I were not going to have any kids. We were going to breed Vizslas.

At some point we decided that sure we'd have a dog or two, but we wanted kids too.

I can't say exactly when my point of view change, but I don't think it was a instant change. I think it was gradual mindset change.

I think it probably began when my wife got pregnant with our son.

By the time he was born I had changed my perspective and felt that abortion was indeed wrong.

And over the years the more I think about it the more convinced I am that it is wrong.

I feel that life does begin at conception. I mean, a woman is pregnant from that point so it stands to reason that then is when life begins.

When a woman is pregnant you don't say; "Congratulations on your group of cells" or "Congratulations on your fetus" it's a baby.

There is not some magical point during the pregnancy that this "mass of cells" magically becomes a baby. Yes, there is a point where it can live outside the womb even if it's not full term, but it is none the less a baby from day one.

Well there you have it. That is my point of view.

Herb, I challenge you to see this film when it plays next week at the Portland International Film Festival:

4 Months, 3 Weeks & 2 Days

"a bleak tale of illegal abortion that powerfully affirms one's faith in people."

During the course of one day in 1987 in Communist Romania, Otilia helps her friend and roommate Gabita to get a late-term abortion done (at that time, any sort of abortion, as well as any kind of contraceptive were illegal in Romania). The film is very realistic and shows the rough and gritty situation in which the girls, particularly Otilia, must make decisions and deal with their consequences. Not for the faint of heart.

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1032846/trailers-me708447451

Read the reviews:

http://www.rottentomatoes.com/m/4_months_3_weeks_and_2_days/#synopsis

"(A) harrowing tale of the grim lengths to which two young women will go to end an unwelcome pregnancy in a totalitarian society that is indifferent to their fate unless it involves punishing them"

The film appeared on many critics' top ten lists of the best films of 2007.[10]

1st - A.O. Scott, The New York Times
1st - Dana Stevens, Slate
2nd - Liam Lacey and Rick Groen, The Globe and Mail
3rd - Peter Rainer, The Christian Science Monitor
3rd - Scott Foundas, LA Weekly (tied with Lake of Fire)
3rd - Wesley Morris, The Boston Globe
4th - Ella Taylor, LA Weekly (tied with Lake of Fire)
4th - Kenneth Turan, Los Angeles Times (tied with Lady Chatterley)
5th - Kevin Crust, Los Angeles Times
8th - Lisa Schwarzbaum, Entertainment Weekly
9th - Philip Martin, Arkansas Democrat-Gazette

And too many awards to list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/4_Months,_3_Weeks_and_2_Days

Skybill-Your point of view is much appreciated.

Having been in the delivery room to "catch" both my kids cut the cord and do all that stuff, it can change your perspective.

Maybe it's semantics for me. Does conception mean life? Or is it just a life form that hasn’t really formed. Can it be called life?

When my wife miscarried with her first pregnancy I saw in the toilet (sorry for the graphic nature of this) a small sack with a black dot. Nothing was distinguishable but there was something.

Call me a fence rider on this if you may. I still believe a woman has control over her own body, thus her own choices.

Mrs. Merk thanks for the warnings. Think I'll not take in the movie even though I have heard about it. Just don't like to put that kind of stuff in my head.

And I am shocked that Herrbocrite has put up none of his special "statistics".

Mrs_Merkin writes:
Herb, I challenge you to see this film when it plays next week at the Portland International Film Festival:

4 Months, 3 Weeks & 2 Days

And after PIFF, it will play at Cinema 21 starting March 14.

Andrew

Thanks, Andrew! I was bummed about being out of town for the PIFF screenings. I'd like to see it.

Actually, I'm not sure if "like" is the right word, though. Compelled, maybe?

"During the course of one day in 1987 in Communist Romania.."

Communism and abortion. Two wonderful things, if you're an atheistic leftist.

Oh, and here are your abortion statistics, as requested:

http://www.nrlc.org/abortion/facts/abortionstats.html

Herb

My views on abortion are so mixed that the thought sometimes tears me up, but having said that, I cannot see it totally banned.

I wish it were not used for birth control, but the ban never stopped women from seeking abortions in the past from butchers who not only took the fetus but the life of the mother.

I guess Herb would say that is just punishment for a woman who would seek an abortion.

Yet, do we want to go back to a Bulgarian-type state that pushes women into back alleys with non-doctors?

I don't. That's kind of a big deal for me.

Anytime we regulate and put people at greater risk, I'm not ok with that. It just does not equate to a net gain overall, IMHO.

"Communism and abortion. Two wonderful things, if you're an atheistic leftist."

More like Communism and government forced birth. Sounds like a match made in heaven for Herb.

"I cannot see it totally banned."

A total ban is not easily enforced, nor is it the immediate goal. But like any violent act perpetrated upon the innocent, one can make abortionists reduce their activities and pay the consequences....which in turn go to the victimized women. Those funds could also be placed in the hands of adoption programs to give the little kids a home.

"I guess Herb would say that is just punishment for a woman who would seek an abortion."

Never. The innocent women and kids are the victims and not criminals. Same thing with prostitution. Go after the slimeball johns, not desperate girls often hooked on drugs.

The relative handful of bloodthirsty, money-hungry 'doctors' are the ones to go after. They know better and could use their powerful positions to heal, not kill. And go after them we should, with every legal means possible.

Physicians were once instructed to follow the Hippocratic Oath: '...first, do no harm.' Sadly, in this day of state-approved euthanasia, they aren't required to make that pledge anymore.

Herb

If you truly cared about reducing abortion, you'd be in favor of contraception and sex ed. However, your beef is not with abortion itself, it's with controlling other's behaviors that you disagree with. This is why your anti-abortion stance has little credibility.

"If you truly cared about reducing abortion, you'd be in favor of contraception and sex ed."

Once again, you're wrong and know nothing of my positions. I don't carry H20 for the pontiff and have no problem with most contraception. There's also nothing wrong with age-appropriate sex ed in biology and health classes, at least as long as it's not pushed by radical leftists with an agenda.

Herb

"Nationwide, 6.2% of high school students had had sexual intercourse for the first time before age 13. Overall, the prevalence of having had sexual intercourse before age 13 was higher among male (8.8%) than female (3.7%) students." (source - Center for Disease Control, 2005)

Conclusion: Herb concedes that sex ed is appropriately taught to kids as young as 10-12 years old - and perhaps even younger, since this is the age that a significant number are first having sex.

But like any violent act perpetrated upon the innocent.

Like the Iraqi children that have died???

Classic move from the leftist playbook.

Blame our honourable troops for risking their lives freeing others.

You ought to be ashamed, but since you're a liberal, that's apparently next to impossible.

Herb

Let's keep this on the topic at hand.

Through our differences I am reading a deep desire to find a place we can call common ground. I have sensed that with Herb and SkyBill and those of us who have disagreed with them.

I'm trying to Obama-size myself.

Fair enough, Chris.

Right you are.

Herb

Herb, nobody's blaming the troops. They take orders and do the job they are there to do. The blame lies solely on the back of George W. Bush and those (read YOU) that continue to support him and his misguided policies. I'm just glad I don't have to wash blood off of my hands since I've been against him and his policies since day one.

The surge is working. As a result, plenty of liberal democrats are running away from the topic of Iraq.

So when the Iraqis are through this, self-governing and successful, you'll admit you were wrong?

Herb

Well, in that vein:

I'm completely ok with a ramped regulation.

Very early, it's no-brainer. Do it, or not, with the understanding this is a valid choice. Beliefs differ, therefore the right action differs. That's reality.

From there, things change.

IMHO, spreading this out over time perfectly matches the physical realities we live with today. We don't know when the person begins for sure, so maybe we really don't then have a justification for an outright ban, particularly given all the complexities.

We do know a ways in, there's a more or less viable person there. IMHO, the law and our education should reflect that.

Combine that with hard-hitting programs aimed at advocacy, prevention, education, alternatives, assistance.

Bet'cha, if we came together as a nation on that, the numbers would be a small fraction in maybe as little as 5 years. A nice bonus involves advocacy on the topic being far more acceptable as there would be no serious divide politically.

Herb, I was right to begin with, and you won't be on this earth long enough to call me wrong. The Iraqis will never be self governed and successful.

"The Iraqis will never be self governed and successful."

Your position is duly noted. They said the exact same thing about the Soviet Union, and indeed the entire Eastern Bloc. I saw it first hand.

Cuba and Iraq will both be free. To insist otherwise is to give in to terror, to allow evil to triumph and surrender hope.

No thanks.

Herb

Cuba and Iraq will be free when their citizens stand up. I don't see that happening anytime soon, as their culture dictates they stand down.

This took some cojones, Chickenjuggler. Merkin and Andrew, thanks for the heads up on a tough picture. I appreciate everyone who has weighed in on this issue so far.

I think that Edselehr has the right age group for approaching some very adult issues. It is far easier to encourage a child to read when they begin school than to teach them to read from scratch. The very same truism applies to sex.

The parents have the first responsibility to their kids to tell them the truth before that information is reinforced by facts and science in school.

Contraception should be available to kids in puberty. Most rubbers will be used for balloons and pranks, but the few that stop someone from life-altering heartbreak are worth the expense, education and effort.

For the most part, this discussion is going somewhere. Since the abortion issues always come up in the war threads; naturally, the war comes up in the abortion thread. We are a consistent bunch.

Hey, my kids have carried those things since 14.

And they did blow them up and play pranks with them too!

Classic move from the leftist playbook.

Blame our honourable troops for risking their lives freeing others.

You ought to be ashamed, but since you're a liberal, that's apparently next to impossible.


WOW!
Do you read what you type Herb? I'm just askin'....
WOW!
How do you sleep at night???

Herb, you say you saw the eastern block changes first hand and I not from your British style spellings you are not from the U.S.

Were you in Bulgaria when abortion was banned?

Are you now a U.S. citizen?

There are many with much more experience dealing with communistic dictatorships than me. However, I did indeed travel around and in the Eastern Bloc. I saw the wall from the outside looking in and the inside looking out.

Unless one has actually experienced this kind of thing their own eyes, such barbarism is very hard to comprehend. We think it simply cannot happen. At the time I was there, I noticed many of the buildings still had bullet holes from WWII.

While there, I witnessed first-hand the barbed wire, police dogs and shoot-to-kill sniper nests....all designed to keep people chained inside an inhumane system. It's therefore not hard for me to understand what Cubans and North Koreans are experiencing.

Herb

"While there, I witnessed first-hand the barbed wire, police dogs and shoot-to-kill sniper nests....all designed to keep people chained inside an inhumane system."

Sort of like the wall the U.S. is building along the border with Mexico.

With many important differences.

Here, we're keeping potentially unsavoury characters out unless they follow our immigration laws. Very important in this post-9/11 world.

There, the communists kept their very own people captive. They knew their diabolical system would crumble if people knew the truth.

Big difference.

Herb

The only difference is that we allow anyone to enter this country if they say they come from a communist country, but if they are black or brown they are not welcome no matter how desperate they are poor in a country that does not give a damn for them.

Plus, Herb, you still do not say what your citizen status is. What are you hiding?

I think Herb is from Switzerland. I just bought a new Tag Heuer watch and when I was reading the directions, the term "whilst" was used. Dead give away!

I'm beginning to think Herb is an illegal alien.

We let cubans immigrate. And we don't let just everyone from a communist country immigrate.
They have to prove they will be persecuted at home.

Cubans get in because they vote Republican.

Mexicans vote Democrat.

We have been a country that has for many years allowed the refugee to feel welcomed.

My mother worked for such an organization for nearly 13 years. It was called SOAR (Sponsors Organized to Assist Refugees). My mom was given credit for finding sponsors for the lives of some 6500 refugees in getting settled in the US. Indirectly that number was probably around 25-30,000.

My mom would call me up to ask for some help in getting beds to some of these new citizens. What a trip. I would drop off a mattress to some Romanian family. They didn't speak English and I certainly was no help. But loads of smiles and nodding of heads and grateful handshakes said it all.

We already have too many figurative walls; a physical one simply states, "you're not welcome here." One more divisive attitude we don't need.