Egypt can seal their borders, why can't we?
http://voanews.com/english/2008-02-03-voa14.cfm

Cause Egypt does not have to deal with liberals in their country.

True Democracy is messy business isn't it?
Even in a Democratic Republic.

Would you prefer to live under Egypt's version?

"Although power is ostensibly organized under a multi-party semi-presidential system, whereby the executive power is theoretically divided between the President and the Prime Minister, in practice it rests almost solely with the President who traditionally has been elected in single-candidate elections for more than fifty years."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Egypt#Politics

Mc74...
Maybe then Egypt is YOUR place... I'll pay for your plane ticket...

Egypt has a shorter border, its mainly sand, and no one is going to sue their military for violating the illegal immigrants rights.

They might have a President that will come up with an immigration bill unlike DUHbya....

They have an immigration policy, none allowed. Without proper documentation.

Borders in other countries:
Armed guards with automatic weapons.
You are lucky if you try to cross illegally and get a warning shot instead of just being shot.

US/Mexico:
Border patrol once in a while.
If you get caught, you get sent back so try, try, try again.

Build a wall like in "Escape from NY".

They have an immigration policy, none allowed. Without proper documentation.

When a Prez with BALLS can step up and make that policy here then we're in business. Well, Hillary won't have that option.... WHAT AM I SAYING! Hillary has bigger balls than DUHbya...

I am completely behind sensible measures, but this seems like more chatter from a minority who would be comforted by a police state. If you want to live the true spirit of America, be savvy, and you won't come off like a bigot or blockhead. We need to rebuild our whole economy, not create a few jobs with a massive public works project along the Mexican border.

Less informed folks are still willing to reassign blame, so we ought to take a closer look. Let's see, this time is it from executives and stockholders to immigrants. C'mon, get with it people -- that is sooooo 1882.

After decades of outsourcing, downsizing and venture capitalism, most folks are aware enough to know that jobs are only ever lost to increase profits to stockholders. Few jobs have been lost to "unfair" government regulations, environmentalists, Unions, or members of any ethnic community -- legal or not. Deregulation and insider deals are what is killing us slowly, like it or not.

The twentieth century was rife with oppressive ideas, but I will focus on just one: Walls. After assuring the citizens that the barrier was to protect them from outsiders, many nations adopted tight security measures.

Here is just a handful of countries that sealed their borders, built walls and manned them with troops:

• Albania
• Bulgaria
• China
• Czechoslovakia
• Egypt
• Germany
• Hungary
• Israel
• Korea
• Libya
• Poland
• Romania
• Russia
• South Africa
• Yugoslavia

When did Russia Czechslovakia, Poland South Africa or Yugoslavia ever build a wall along their entire border with another country? For that matter Korea doesn't have a wall, there is a heck of a minefield, but no wall.

A melting pot that gives more bennefits to illegals than to it's own homeless and starving children. Hell, you don't even need to read or write english to get a drivers license. The test is now multi-lingual while our street signs are not. If you want to live and drive in the USA then read, write, and speak english!!!!!

So our big mighty wall would be even more oppressive, I mean, impressive?

Pretzel logic, but what the hell, I guess beating the Eastern bloc at wall building would give you a sense of pride.

As for me, I have friends who escaped oppression during the cold war. I look at any wall and know damn well that it works both ways.

I guess you are right, a wall would be stupid. Let's just start with huge fines for those who hire illegal workers in the US and make it mandatory to read, right, and speak english to become a citizen and sure to get a drivers license. But, once here, how to you deny emergency medical care to them with no insurance, no job, and no way to ever collect for services? There needs to be better border security with or without any border barriers in place. In addition if found in country illegally they need to be deported immediately. This applies to Little Cuba as well.

I think we do need to fix it. It is difficult for many Americans to read English too, and many are coddled rather than expected to read forms and documents in their native language. The system is still abused by poor whites more often than anybody else, so let us not overstate it. We need a system that encourages everyone to learn our language, and that means television is a far bigger evil than immigration.

The people from other countries who exploit our great nation the most are not poor, but they dip deeply into the dole. They come from places like Saudi Arabia, Dubai, Israel, India and China. They ask for security and a marketplace, and we give them our futures, our money, our troops, our jobs, and our industrial base. Furthermore, by putting folks out of work, many of these foreigners blatantly abuse our welfare system.

But isn't America an English speaking country? Would we have to speak Chinese if we moved to China? Would they coddle me?

China has many languages and they have adapted quite well over the centuries.

DT, you forgot one;

US/Mexico:
Border patrol once in a while.
If you get caught, you get sent back so try, try, try again.

...If the border patrol does happen to shoot you, the border patrol agents will go to jail and you can sue the government. Even if you are a convicted drug smuggler.

DT, you are 100000% right on with this statement: If you want to live and drive in the USA then read, write, and speak English!!!!!

That is one of my pet peeves.

I have almost canceled my Washington Mutual account several times because you have to choose English when you stick your card in their ATM. My knuckle gets sore every time I use the ATM from punching the "English" button!

The damn thing is smart enough to know my PIN so why can't it know I want English?

Rant over!!

Because the company that makes the software is in Mexico. Cost to much to have it made in the USA.

It doesn't know your pin, until you enter it, and it acces's the banks database.

And many of them charge you when the device connects to the database, so their waiting until you select your type of transaction, before doing anything.

And the software isn't written in Mexico, I'm not sure why, but Mexico develops very little software.

I think they should all just be in english, with no other options.

Skybill, that's a good point. Information gleaned from the magnetic strip of the card should allow the machine to default to the language of choice, without having to choose. It seems like that would be an easy thing to do?

I agree. It seems to me that would be quite helpful abroad as well. Since many of these banks are global, why not have the machine address you in your native language everywhere? It would simplify the process and encourage tourists to carry plastic in metropolitan shopping districts. It could keep them all consuming without thinking at familiar chains and prevent them from having to mingle with the local population. It might be just like being home. All sarcasm aside, it is a really solid idea.

A wall that keeps folks out is a wall that keeps us in.

It doesn't keep any one out or in, that is legally prepared to travel.

It only keeps the criminals in or out.

Just like gun laws do not keep guns out of the hands of criminals, walls will not contain them. the money would be better spent in actually locking up illegal aliens for a term of 3 to 6 months before sending them home. they might then reconsider the worth of trying to get here again.

"It doesn't keep any one out or in, that is legally prepared to travel.

It only keeps the criminals in or out."

Spoken like a Soviet border guard.

Just for perspective, watch these newsreels and remember what our nation did to help these people. We sent them food and good wishes. Our government continued a fruitless witchhunt.

Real people died behind barbed wire overseas while our leaders frantically searched for bogeymen at home. Sound familiar?

It ought to give you pause whenever our benevolent leaders speak of walls, towers and guns. Those turrets will cover 360 degrees, and at least half of that will be American soil.

No, don't jail them in the US, send them to Guantanamo for 6 months. Then drop them someplace in Brazil and let them get home on their own.

I have no problem with what the Soviet Border guards did, there is a reason we have borders.

I'm with Littlesongs.

Either it's the land of the free, or it isn't. You know, before we ended up with a clown in charge, other nations were concerned about how easy it was to be American.

Now they aren't, and that's telling isn't it?

I like the old way. We are open and willing to share our great nation. We knew we had it right and spreading it with more Americans is probably one of the best things we could have done.

Now we are entering the bunker mentality. That means we have problems, but we don't have acceptance. Big mistake.

Let's talk churches for a minute. So, we've got church A, and it's open to all comers. Solid church, teaching the gospel, improving it's community, and growing by leaps and bounds. No corruption, no judgement, just worship, sharing and a common faith.

Sounds good huh? I think so.

Now we've got church B. It's kind of a members only club. It does not grow so fast, might not just teach the gospel either. Nobody really knows what they are about because it's difficult to get in to check things out, and they ask for stiff commitments and dollars to enter and play ball.

All things being equal, the open and accessible church is gonna just swamp the club. Sure, the club is not gonna go away, but it's really more about it's members than anything else.

That closed church starts really wanting control. Only some songs, english only, maybe the elders start leveraging their position and ideas quit cropping up as those are counter to the vision, etc....

The open one ends up all over town, lots of people, languages, ideas, sharing, community.

Closed places have issues. Open ones just don't.

Why?

Because they are open, people can see what is happening, talk about stuff, share, improve, and check those self-serving people just as they should.

Now back to nations.

This one is getting closed down. Why?

BECAUSE WE'VE AN ASSLOAD OF PROBLEMS. Secrecy is about hiding lies, not security. Closed borders are about limiting the movements of people here as much as it is outsiders. It's about closing down ideas, establishing control and all those other

NOT LAND OF THE FREE things we point to various parts of the world and laugh at.

Did anyone ever consider the idea that maybe, right now, we just don't have it so right as we once did? That's difficult to share, does not give us the high ground, and means others don't like us so much any more.

What does that do?

INCREASES THE NEED FOR SECURITY.

As an American, I don't want any border keeping immigrants out. Anybody that wants to come here and become an American citizen should be able to, no questions asked, period.

Of course, if you're a thug trying to get in this country to create chaos, then you have no mercy from me.

As an American, I don't want any border keeping immigrants out. Anybody that wants to come here and become an American citizen should be able to, no questions asked, period.

I agree. As LONG as they come here legally.

To grant immunity to the illegal’s here now is a slap in the face to all the immigrants who DID come here legally and get their citizenship.

And BTW, FLUENT ENGILISH should be a requirement.

I don't like immunity either.

Better to put them on a path to citizenship, with some accountability and public service in there.

English? Maybe. That's one of those things we really don't get to control. Language is a norm, not something we get to legislate.

Either the language remains viable, or it doesn't.

Given the investment in in globally, english is not going anywhere soon.

We are just spoiled in our mono-culture. Seeing things in other languages is no crime. Happens every where and now it's happening here too.

Want to know one big driver for this?

We outsourced our manufacturing? Now they don't care about the US only version. Cheaper to slap all the languages on it and call it good for the globe.

When we made stuff, we made it for us first, others second.

Just something to think about.

Ok, I should make it more clear. It shouldn't ever be illegal for anyone to enter the country -- in other words, how or why someone got here shouldn't matter, we'll just absorb them.

As for the English requirement, its troublesome because for one thing, Unlike many other languages, English is very difficult to learn. But I am open to English being the official language of the United States and certain elements of the country must always be conducted in English, for instance, The Excutive, Legislative and Judical branches, the military, the legal system et al, much like English is required air traffic operations around the world.

But with this being a free market country, I'd say everything else is fair game.

Skeptical, I have to disagree.

If a person wants to come here then there should be a process for them to apply for entry and when granted THEN come here.

"Absorbing" them shouldn't happen. If they are here illegally, send them packing back home, with the proper papers to apply for entry and as I mentioned above, after it is approved, THEN and ONLY THEN should they be allowed back.

As far as it never being illegal for anyone to enter, I say that there are some people who should NEVER be granted entry. Drug dealers, criminals and such are not welcome here. No way. Remember what Castro did when Jimmy Carter said anybody from Cuba could come here. He opened the jails and let all the criminals out to come to Florida.

I have no problem with immigrants speaking their native language at home or with their family and friends, but if you are out in the workforce, then you have to speak English.

I get so pissed off when I'm at some place and I try to explain what I want, over and over and over and all I get is a dumb stare like I'm the one speaking a foreign language.

Things like job applications, driver’s license manuals and other forms should be printed in English only.

All are welcome here, that's how America got to be as great as we are. Just come here legally.

"But isn't America an English speaking country? Would we have to speak Chinese if we moved to China? Would they coddle me?"

Trixter, English is the accepted language here in the US, and the one used ... but we don't have an OFFICIAL language ... probably the only industrialized nation on Earth that doesn't. That's why there's a big push by a lot of chest-thumping lawmakers to make it the "official language".

Of course many minorities and immigrants are against this.

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quote:

Of course many minorities and immigrants are against this.

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Bill, I like you. I hate to point out obvious irony, but...

"FLUENT ENGILISH should be a requirement."

My Grandfather came to the United States as a young boy. Before long, he spoke both Italian and English. He was quite good at communicating in either tongue. In fact, he mastered the most difficult linguistic puzzle of all: Humor.

I like the idea that all Americans are bound together by our nation. It would be foolish to bleach out every trace of culture from our new arrivals. Cuisine and the arts would suffer greatly if we insisted on folks cooking nothing but hamburgers and only expressing themselves in advertising.

With all of that said, I support the idea of a literacy campaign for all Americans. This past Sunday we all sat down to watch an elite group of millionaires play a game. I think everyone here is keenly aware that more than a few guys on that gridiron were illiterate college graduates.

This sort of coddling sends a mixed message. Not only to new immigrants, but to generations of young people. The mind ought to be the most exercised part of a young person. If brawn got them into a good school, the brain must also benefit from the opportunity. Academic standards are there to protect the future of the athlete.

To settle any questions about ID requirements in Oregon, here is the latest from our Department of Transportation.

So, have we ended our brief love affair with a border wall? Or is everyone still infatuated with it?

"City police Lt. Kappel Reinhardt once stood helplessly as a fatally wounded East German man, gunned down only a foot from the Berlin Wall, climbed to escape to the West.

"He was crying, 'Help me, help me,' " and we could not reach him," Reinhardt said of 18-year-old Peter Fechter. "We could not let our people over the wall because we were not sure they would shoot them or not."

A West German officer dropped a first aid package over the wall to the stunned youth but after more than an hour standoff on that gray 1962 afternoon, nervous East German guards carried the young man away, dead."

We don't need a wall. Yes that brief interlude is over. We need strong enforcement of laws pertaining to the hiring of illegal workers and a working system of deportation for those not on the path towards becoming a legal US citizen.

Littlesongs, I might have been confusing in my previous post.

Fluent English as a requirement to gain citizenship is more the direction I was going.

I wouldn't expect people to not use their native language at home or with family and friends or gatherings of like kinds, etc.

For them to be able to continue their family heritage is a must.

What I am saying is that to conduct business in public, you need to speak English.

My grandparents on my mom's side were both from Italy too. I loved being in their home and hearing them speak Italian! But they both spoke English too. Same thing on dad's side except they were from Germany and Ireland!

I'm 1/2 Italian, 1/2 German and 1/2 Irish...I guess that why I'm so big. 3 halves!

Yea. The more I think about it, a fence really won't work unless we have the resources to post guards along it 24x7. They will just cut thru it or tunnel under it etc.

I have to go with the strong enforcement of not hiring illegals.

First, there should be massive fines for ANY employer who hires an illegal. Minimum of $10 million per illegal they are caught hiring.

Second, if an employer hires an illegal and is caught, they should be banned from EVER receiving a government contract again. Even if it is something as simple as a defense contractor hiring an illegal to be a janitor.

Third, no SSN, no job. Or driver’s license or welfare benefits, etc. Period.

Make it tough and enforce it. Enforcing it is the tough part. Too many judges who just won't do their jobs.

So, a typical dinner at Bills:

Rigatoni, SauerKraut & Brott's, and a Guinness to wash it down.

Works for me!!!

Mmmmmm. Guinness. Love it, if it's poured right!

Can only handle one or two though. So filling. It's like eating a loaf of good bread!

Yep, nothing quite like devouring a whole loaf of good garlic bread.

I am glad you guys are willing to discuss this issue and come to some consensus. In fact, I think we might have come up with a plan:

• Airtight restrictions for employers and stiff penalties large enough to bankrupt the offenders. It will apply to individuals and firms whether it be a roofer, a spoiled yuppie missus, a small sweatshop, a local produce plant or large chain retailer.
• Strict guidelines for the issuance of ID cards and licenses.
• A border patrol that is well equipped, well trained, well paid and well supervised. It will be the duty of our government and no private contractors will be hired. Oversight must be maintained so that they do not engage in nefarious activities such as drug and human trafficking.
• Schools that ensure every American can read and write in English.

Littlesongs, just remember that exercise is BAD for you.

Here's my theory: Your heart only has a finite number of beats in it. If you exercise, it raises your heart rate thus shortening the time span that those finite number of beats will take place.

What da ya think?

Ask me some time about my theory on salt and cholesterol.

OK, sanctions for employeers, I agree, however there are several considerations, how are they to know who is here legally?

If they hire someone with forged identity cards, what level of assurance should they go through to verify them?

If someone hires someone to do yard work, are they expected to have a computer verification system to make sure the person they hire is here legally, or are you going to confiscate an 80 year old womans house, because she couldn't determine someone didn't have real papers?

I don't suppose you have any answers to those questions? Or solutions to the issues?

Get to know who you hire before you hire them, foster the relationship during their time with you, and stay current with them as they grow. Do this simple thing, and you will seldom be surprised by your employees. If you are too big, too busy, or too addled to engage the people you hire, you really ought to find another job for yourself.

One other thing: Pay people next to nothing and you should expect next to nothing from people. In this case, that "nothing" includes vital information that could save your business.

(Your heart only has a finite number of beats in it. If you exercise, it raises your heart rate thus shortening the time span that those finite number of beats will take place. Uh-oh. Mine has a murmur and it waltzes, so I guess I am only gonna get 66% of what I had coming.)

My solutions, which isn't perfect, but I think its acceptable.

Go ahead with the improvements to the identity system, and have severe sanctions for companies that don't use it.

Also have a telephone system, an individual can use to verify someones eligibility to work.

And in addition to the severe sanctions on companies, any one caught evading the system, or assisting others to evade the system receive severe sanctions including fines and jail time.