http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22570624/

Goldman Sachs on Wednesday said it expects the U.S. economy to drop into recession this year, prompting the Federal Reserve to slash benchmark lending rates to 2.5 percent by the third quarter.

In a note to clients, Goldman said real gross domestic product would contract by 1 percent on an annualized basis in both the second and third quarters. For all of 2008, the investment bank said GDP would rise by 0.8 percent.

The unemployment rate will rise to 6.5 percent in 2009 from the current 5 percent, it said.

Yep, like all good things, the party must end sometime and the hangover begins. An economy propped up by tax cuts that created massive deficits, combined with minimal job growth, stagnate wages, and record deficit spending, is now headed towards recession.

Question is, who are the Bush people going to blame this on?

I hope it's ONLY a recession.
This issue keeps me awake nights.
This could be very ugly.

"This could be very ugly."

Amus: I'm with you. I'm expecting national companies to start laying off employees next month, in the trickle down effect.

USA Today yesterday reported the only people continuing to buy housing with no problem, are the Rich. I just hope "The Well To Do" keep buying like they've never bought before, to keep us all afloat! Each 4 car garage needs 4 SUV's or MONSTER TRUCKS in them!

The layoffs are coming very soon and the recession will be on like we have not seen in a long while. We had one at the beginning of DUHbya's first 4 years and now as he leaves.
DUHBYA!!!! Don't let that door hit you too hard in the ass on the way out!!!!
Trickle Down DOESN'T work!

The economy will probably be propped up until Jan. 21, 2009, when it will be conveniently blamed on the next President.

China doesn't need their military to invade... they already own us!

When it will be conveniently blamed on the next President.

Typical EXTREME RIGHT propaganda.

2008, as in 1992, on the wall at the Clinton presidential campaign HQ:

"Its the economy, stupid!"

Well, the economy was doing great, until the Demo's took over the house and senate.

LOL

It started in 1980 with the planned destruction of the middle class.
Clinton played his part by continuing those policies, and signing NAFTA.
Although, to his credit, he did make great progress on the debt.

Since 2000 it's been foot on the accelerator toward economic collapse.

Should the collapse occur prior to 1/20/2009, expect a declaration of Emergency, with Bush's Evangelical Mercenary Army (Blackwater) engaged to return order.

(My Doomsday scenario)

Nwokie, you're just not that smart of an okie, are you? The Dems took over in November. Bush has been in charge since 2000. It's his economy and it's his fault. All of his economic policies that he's put in place over the years are now failing.

The "great" economy you cite was a false economy propped up by unsustainable spending and tax cuts, along with artificially high house prices that allowed people to use their home as an ATM. Our economy is 2/3's consumer spending, and consumer's access to easy and cheap credit is over with.

If I knew what IRONY meant, I bet this would fit;

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20080110/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/fbi_unpaid_phone_bills

How utterly American that even the Government gets it's phone service cut off if you don't pay the bill.

( This seemed like the right thread to post this link ).

I love this part:

"Poor supervision of the program also allowed one employee to steal $25,000, the audit said."

Ah, the FBI. America's finest. Who's watching the henhouse?

Nwokie said>>>
Well, the economy was doing great, until the Demo's took over the house and senate.

BULLSHIT!

NOT sticking up for the Dems just fact! When you can find some FACT for us Nwokie then I'm all eyes!

The Fed says get ready for lower interest rates as they believe we are very close to entering a recession.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/22595525/

Are we headed towards stagflation??

"Well, the economy was doing great, until the Demo's took over the house and senate."

Yeah, tell that to the over three million blue-collar jobs that have been lost during this administration as a direct result of outsourcing. Ask them how great the economy is!

The economic growth was spurred largely by interest rate cuts by the Federal Reserve, post-9/11. That jobless growth has us with the US Dollar at record-low levels, average wages lower than in 2000, a housing and credit crisis with no end in sight ... should I go on?

"Well, the economy was doing great, until the Demo's took over the house and senate."

Maybe. But the downturn has not been CAUSED by the house and senate being taken over by Democrats.

You might as well say " Well the economy was fine until Anna Nicole Smith died." It's got that much to do with what is going on, Nwokie.

You know Boys & Girls our Government LOVES when YOU Bicker among your selves, placing blame on either party system. They know it doesn't really matter! THEY'RE IN CONTROL.

Parties come and go and THEY STAY IN CONTROL. So keep it up and keep telling yourself, YOU have a say and a VOTE. They like hearing "You Still Believe". That keeps them safe but don't look behind the CURTIN, it might really Frighten You.

Well, not to put to fine of a point on it, but that assumes a lot of things that, frankly, I do too often. So I hear ya.

The frustrating part is that they are allowed to do it for so long relative to just about any other occupation that most of us deal with on a daily basis. I mean, if we make a mistake and collectively elect someone, it can take a long time to ferret out the fact that they are shitty at their job. And then, even when we know it, we have to wait a LONG time to get a chance to fix it. It goes against all kinds of things Americans are used to. So it gets pent up and has some pretty amazing effects on our society as a whole. It's not that we don't have a say that is so frustrating. It's that we have to say it and eat it and deal with it for literally YEARS before we get a chance to DO something about it.

The only REAL reprecussion is to dole out shame while we vote them out of office. Shame USED to be an effective tool. But so many in our Government know that someone will always be out to shame them that it just rolls off of them anymore. Leaving us with, well, what Craig noted.

I often wonder what will be the impetus to a dramatic change in our entire system. And I'm talking about Constitution shifts, tenure shifts, term shifts, accountability shifts. I suspect it will take a nuclear war. A complete societal breakdown and being forced to rebuild from scratch.

Or maybe an invasion from another race.

Beause it ain't gonna be through the system we have now. It won't happen through a revolt. It won't happen peacefully either. It'll take something truly shocking.

If I had ANY extra anything right now, I'd put it in a box on a long string and hide it in my bathroom wall and wait until...

Chickenjuggler: You Speak The Truth.

"If I had ANY extra anything right now"

Mrs merkin: That's the problem with most of America and says a lot about the state we're in!

I'm betting, You (and the rest of us) won't have to "wait until..." very long.

Here we go! Sorry, I said February layoffs. This is jumping the gun a bit.

Macy's To Layoff 271 In Midwest. From WBBM Chicago:

http://cbs2chicago.com/local/macys.employee.layoffs.2.628383.html

Mrs. M sez: "If I had ANY extra anything right now, I'd put it in a box on a long string and hide it in my bathroom wall and wait until..."

Not a good idea. Your contractor gets first dibs at it!

From AP:

----------------------Stocks Extend Plunge; Dow Falls 306----------------------

[excerpts]

"It's not rocket science — the economy is slowing dramatically, and it's being reflected in economic reports."

Other economic reports added to investors' glum mood. The Commerce Department said housing starts plunged 14 percent to 1.01 million in December, marking the weakest pace of home building in more than 16 years. In addition, permits to build new homes dropped 8 percent last month to 1.07 million, the lowest level since 1993.

Merrill Lynch & Co. on Thursday posted a massive loss that underscored the depth of the economy's credit problems. The world's largest brokerage said it lost $9.91 billion in the fourth quarter, hurt by big write-downs from investments and trades battered by tight credit conditions.

Read the article here:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gHs5OM3gFG_DytQQZFbWfgPT08MAD8U7U2S02

Bond traders are speaking loud and clear on whether they think a recession is coming.

TRICKLE DOWN DOESN'T WORK!!!!

Hah I don't think Bush's skewed version of Reaganomics are at fault here as much as the demise of the middle class, which has more to do with all those blue-collar jobs we no longer have (McCain is right, they're gone and they ain't coming back).

The economic recovery we had was inflated by interest rates being dropped to record low levels to spur spending ... which worked, short-term. Now the piper wants to be paid, the housing bubble has burst, mortgage lender greed on the lax rules has bankrupt millions, income levels are stagnant and what new jobs are being created are service-sector (meaning lower wages) ...

God bless America. Land that I love.

"mortgage lender greed on the lax rules has bankrupt millions"

Well, not quite. I would say consumer greed has bankrupted said consumers, and deservedly so.

So what can be done to turn things around here people? I've a house in Waldport I'm trying to sell!

IMHO, the current mess is gonna have to run it's course.

Also IMHO, a nice, big initiative, like the Interstate Highway system, would put a lot of people to work. Alternative energy infrastructure build out anyone?

Skep: How long has it been for sale?

KSKD: Does the WPA ring a bell?

Craig, we had it on the market for a month or so and got a low ball offer, but took it anyway because of the 140 (then) houses for sale in/near Waldport, NOT ONE HOUSE WAS SOLD DURING THE ENTIRE MONTH OF NOVEMBER!!!! Well, anyway, the buyer backed out a week before closing.

I took it off the market when the listing expired in Dec and started to work on the items in the inspection report -- namely the T1-11 siding. (Damn you Louisiana Pacific!) Will relist in Feb. $155k for nice stick-built 3 br 2 ba ranch in nice gated community. Yep, $155k for a typical house that would bring $300k+ in Gresham or Hillsboro.

Only an hour from Otis!

kskd sez: "Alternative energy infrastructure build out anyone?"

Good idea. What sort of alternative energy systems can put people to work evenly throughout the state and/or country? Electrical panels along highway medians? Huge underground rainwater water cisterns along the same?

What we need are innovative idea's to leverage clean energy to it's fullest potential.

Take a look at this:
http://www.archinect.com/images/uploads/turbine_freeway_structure_2.jpg

Having these on I-84 Through the gorge would generate tons of wind power.

Heck on a busy freeway with a steady flow the traffic itself would create the needed wind to rotate the thing.

Those things are kind of cool. Ugly though.

Craig, no it doesnt! Help me out here!

Throughout the nation... well, there is biodiesel. Looks like we can use corn, hemp, some grass that's native here, other things. All of that needs local refineries and the supply chains to service them.

Solar can go all over the place, as can the rain stuff.

As much as I hate it, a nuke plant or two could happen. Maybe one of the newer ones that can reburn the fuel multiple times.

Gotta be a market for small, very efficient vehicles for the biodiesel or maybe just alcohol. Make those semi locally.

Plenty of windy parts of the nation, generators could go there.

Research and dev for some nice and high paying jobs for all those displaced professionals we are seeing. Repurpose those guys and get the ocean stuff working proper.

We could be making lots of food for local regions. In fact, those local regions could make their own damn food. So, educate them, provide subsidies, but do it in the form of gear and know how, not dollars, unless applied to secure farming rights.

(IMHO, that one really packs a bigger punch than most people think. Lots of food travels that just does not have to. Also that one will favor smaller markets, not chains so much. That's good to.)

Somebody has gotta be making stuff, so do what it takes policy wise to make that happen. Bonus points for green processes and made in USA business models.

Apply R&D to the biodiesel / alcohol fuel source. Car conversions have an immediate impact and provide jobs for service, installation, manufacturing. Gotta eat our own dog food if the alternative thing makes any sense at all. Does us little good to import all that crap, if we don't have to.

Some infrastructure changes for local electrical power. Minor, but needed.

These kinds of things are investments, so we help pay for those. Instead of lots of dollars going to wars (we need good military, but that's different) and multi-national corporations, we send those dollars into people, with the made in USA business model, to help them buy the goods and services they need here.

The return is less dependence on overseas stuff, a stronger currency, as we are building wealth that can be exploited to our mutual benefit for years to come, just like the interstate system brought us. (big business is still getting returns on that, so we know that kind of thing works huge)

And we get exports! Right now, that's military, stories and lots of virtual things. (financials) Exporting real things --we made, balances the economic forces nicely, and gives our policy more teeth.

The water thing is very interesting, particulary in ag areas. Bet there are some serious gains there, if the infrastructure is there.

One other thing I would do personally is do what it takes to equate "made in USA" equal "quality and built to last". Those things are not generally true, and getting those things means solid R & D, too.

One random example. I've a friend, who uses blenders on a regular basis. The American made ones are very expensive, but they are actually quite good. $300 -vs- $90. The "will it blend guys" make almost everything here. After going through a set of cheaper ones, the better blender is the better choice as it will last.

That's a big part of dealing with the cost differences, but it's gotta be real, not just marketing.

Here's an idea. Demonstrate a "Made in USA" product is clearly differentiated from overseas products, in terms of it's use value and service life, and get a subsidy / tax break / incentive, whatever your ideology fits best, with the sole purpose of having it compete directly with those things not made here.

Couple that with R & D grants to enable it to happen, and we will have some great exports in a few years, along with some solid purchasing options.

Not too related, but I bought my son a portland made bike this year. It's freaking awesome, locally serviced, registered, etc... Everybody wants it, and it's very well built. Nice to know the dollars went here instead of to Shimano, right?

Same principle applied. After going through a coupla lesser overseas BMX bikes, it appears this one would have just gone the distance, saving me money and time. So, educate people about that.

Invest, or meet your needs? Great question to be asking, right?

Probably the most depressing thing in politics right now, is how little discussion of this kind, we see from everybody. It really needs to happen.

Think empowerment, not entitlement. Also consider the diminished impact our gig players will have on things. The more regional / local things are, the less we must be linked to the greater stock markets. That's highly likely to bring stability in living to a lot of people, and that's good.

No matter what any of us say, basic needs need to be met in a sustainable way. After that's done, people are doing well, then we can discuss matters of morality, ideology, etc...

"Those things are kind of cool. Ugly though."

Au contraire, Pierre!

I think those things are beautiful!

I saw a feature on those helical windmills a few days ago on the Science Channel.

One of the cool features are that they can start in low wind conditions, and for some reason the won't go any faster than about 300 RPM, making them ideal for gusty locations.

On the show, the guy was putting them on rooftops in downtown Chicago.

KSKD: Here's the history of the WPA:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Works_Progress_Administration

That makes sense. Yep. Rings a bell all right.

IMHO, we need initiatives like this right now.

Vitalogy Amus, Trixter, and Craig were right...and it only took a week right here in PDX.

"Oregon Health & Science University plans to announce today that it will cut 200 to 300 jobs, raise tuition by 10 percent to 25 percent, trim construction on Portland's South Waterfront, and restructure or close a score of clinical, research and education programs."

(Admittedly, it's due to the removal of tort caps, but still...I read some guys blog who said he just moved here for a new job at OHSU and is worried sick.)

So I wonder if all the hideous waterfront development is going to be the new Chernobyl ghetto, full of vacant penthouses and empty storefronts and a rusting unused tram. I picture Trash blowing around, seagulls scavenging for garbage, broken windows. etc. Hey! Maybe "Dignity" Village can relocate!

I wish OHSU would've closed the Primate Research Center first!

And it's ONLY the beginning to the total collapse of DUHbya's economic plan for America. Sooner he leaves the better we will all be!

Did you hear about this?

"Sprint Nextel Corp.'s stock plunged Friday after the wireless carrier said it will cut 4,000 jobs and close 125 retail locations in response to a steep drop in its customer base."

"the job cuts and retail closings are a first step in Hesse's efforts to "stop the bleeding.""


Here's the entire story from AP:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5gxz-WPw8ShbPHv9t3nQfColxXQpgD8U8J9BG2

Thats because their losing business to the other wireless carriers.

Their customer service SUCKS!

"The economy will probably be propped up until Jan. 21, 2009, when it will be conveniently blamed on the next President."

You're probably right. Just like Bush was blamed for the economic downturn he walked into in January 2001. Say what you want about Bush, but that particular economic slowdown didn't start on his watch. I remember thinking in Spring of 2000, when things started looking bad, "if a Rebublican wins the 2000 election, he'll be blamed for this economic slowdown".

Tomorrow should be interesting.
Markets are down bigtime all over the world today.

Yes, today's drops are equal to those after 9/11. Although we've already priced in some pain, more pain is to come. The world is now realizing that the US economy can't continue to grow and borrow to the point we have to date. Less borrowing equals a retraction. We're in trouble. Be prepared to see 10-15% drops in your 401K or IRA. This will be the documented proof of the failure of Bush economic policy. Credit cards are only a short term fix with a long term cost.

When we start making stuff again, this will all go away.

As opposed to "making stuff up".

Let this be a lesson to future Presidents of the "r" kind.

Nice!

(added to playbook)

Here it is:

"Fears that the United States may be in a recession reverberated around the world on Monday, sending stock markets from Mumbai to Frankfurt into a tailspin"

Read the entire New York Times article below:

--------------World Markets Plunge On Fears of U.S. Slowdown-------------

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/22/business/worldbusiness/22markets.html?ref=busi ness

You notice when Herb can't rewrite history to fit his EXTREME views of Bush or come up with half truths he is NOWHERE to be seen.
Thank God that the economy doesn't have anything to do with abortion or he's be here ranting.

"Thank God that the economy doesn't have anything to do with abortion or he's be here ranting."


I dunno, the economy is down, abortion is down -- a close enough connection for the scientifically unsound.

Well it's still early and Fed's cut the rate to 3/4 but the market just isn't taking it.

I think it's great that abortions are down. Whatever the reason.

I think it's great that the Fed knocked off 3/4 of a point. now the reason for THAT, I do care about.

I can't help but laugh at the talking heads that keep saying we haven't "technically" had two quarters of negative GDP yet. Clearly one only read the headlines any day recently.

Today it's layoffs at Yahoo and BOA profits off 95%. And BOA is bailing out Countrywide?

Come and listen to my story of a prez named Bush,
Silver spoon in mouth and brains in the tush,
Took this whole country down a deep rat hole,
I hope every xmas he gets a lump of coal.

"Come and listen to my story of a prez named Bush,
Silver spoon in mouth and brains in the tush,
Took this whole country down a deep rat hole,
I hope every xmas he gets a lump of coal."

Has to be added to our "Classic" file. Nice job Andy.

2nd verse:

And now we all know W's a friend to Billionaires,
But all the Republican candidates say "Get away from here".
The Whitehouse is the place I want to be,
But it'll never happen if I am linked to the W. P. E.

Thanks DUHbya!

TRICKLE DOWN DOESN'T WORK!!!!!!

Will the SUV manufacturers be next?

This from Business Week:

Winnebago Says Layoffs Imminent

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/financialnews/D8UCEODG0.htm

This from the Pittsburgh Business Times:

National Home Price Decline In 2007 Called First Drop Since Great Depression

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/stories/2008/01/21/daily34.html

"Will the SUV manufacturers be next?"

I don't think so. We love our SUVs . . . however, according to articles I read recently, the V8 is finished . . . Americans are ready to let go of it.

DOH!!
I could have had a V8?

"...the V8 is finished . . ."

We said that in 1972 and 1981 also, so I'm not inclined to believe it now. There may be a temporary drop in interest in V-8's but when you look at diesels you can get great mileage and efficiency, and keep all the power (and more!)

As they say, there's no replacement for displacement.

The smart ones are evolving them.

The GMC Hybrid Yukon has the first ever Two-Mode propulsion system in any SUV. With it's active fuel management that trims down to 4-cylinders at highway speeds and complete electric in the city.
Take a look:
http://www.gmc.com/yukonhybrid/index.jsp

I guess I should clarify my V8 comment. There still will be V8's in trucks and some SUVs for towing needs, and of course, V8 diesels, but the good old stand alone V8 will be history.

True...Unless you're hauling or towing, a V-8 or larger is overkill.

Furniture Retailer "Wickes" Files For Bankruptcy

"citing tough times in wake of the slumping U.S. housing market."

"rising fuel prices and woes in the housing and subprime-lending markets hurt the retail furniture industry, he said. Several Wickes Furniture stores are located in areas that have been affected by record foreclosures."

Read more about this from Reuters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssConsumerGoodsAndRetailNews/idUSN0459624820080 204

MANY MANY more to come......

These days have been hard as hell for small businesses. This is just one sad story of millions across this land. Harlem, a cradle of American music, is bidding farewell to record stores.

Not that I disagree with the premise that Bush is driving the economy into the toilet, but furniture retailers are a bad example. They're always having "going out of business" sales.

Furniture isn't the ONLY thing!!

Didn't the state legislators pass a bill to ban bogus "going out of business" promotions?

Anyone else remember "Stereo Super Stores"? I can't remember how many times that place changed names.

It bankrupt Tom Peterson.

I remember when I lived in St. Louis, they (Missouri) passed a law that said you could only have 1 "Going Out of Business" sale every 5 years!

My post on this thread dated January 9, 2008:

"Amus: I'm with you. I'm expecting national companies to start laying off employees next month, in the trickle down effect."

Macy's To Cut 2,300 Jobs In Restructuring. This from The LA Times:

http://www.latimes.com/business/la-fi-macy7feb07,1,6118938.story

Macy's To Close Seattle Regional Office, Cut 750 Jobs. This from The Seattle Times:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/businesstechnology/2004167930_webmacys06.h tml

We're just starting February. I'm expecting more of this.

It's ONLY going to get worse!

THANKS DUHbya and Co.!!!!

Recession my ass! More like a Depression comin' our way!!

/just my opinion

That will be the end game outcome "Depression". Trouble is people are having a hard time even swallowing "Recession". By Spring Recession will be the word.

If there's anyone reading this, not convinced we're in a Recession right now, go to google news and put in the search word "Layoffs".

Yep.

I think there is little doubt at this point.

Time to start living small and buying smart people.

Where do you go to buy smart people?

...."Trickle Down DOESN'T work!"

You would think that they would know that just by looking at the Colorado River....

I have touted for five years to stay cash fat....

But the smaller I tried to live, the smaller the income flow seemed to get as well. At least my house has been free and clear for the past 8 years, but the increases in food fuel and taxes is eating all the money needed for upkeep. Prop taxes up more than 50 percent in that time, Electric rates up 50 percent in the past year Nat gas 250 percent, Gasoline up from 1.15 to 3.05
Sales tax up from 4.5 to 7.5 Food prices the same. Eggs up from .89 to 1.79 in past year,
Anyone priced Plywood?
Not everything is up so steeply, but wages for the average working stiff are not anywhere close to keeping pace.

I just don't see any real solutions coming from the guys setting the policy. President isn't so important, but what are state and Local Governments doing to stave off the downturn?

State and local governments are underpowered to respond to the outsourcing of America's manufacturing and engineering jobs which are a direct result of Bush and Republican Congressional incentives and tax breaks to large corporations, which has resulted in the mess we are in.

buying smart people!

Heh, what a difference a comma makes huh?

Well, for us that's gonna mean getting out of our house situation. Kids are wanting a place, so we are gonna work with them to do that, with the idea they can buy it later on.

We move somewhere that's just cheap, and trade some commute for cash flow, sock some away.

Live small means reducing that monthly nut to the smallest possible with good quality of life. We are also finding it means leveraging family. If we are all working together, things are a lot easier and robust than if we are not.

The kids might just want to ride through this nasty time and we want to cut the nut. So, we are gonna all do that.

Until we see this nation making stuff again, I'm afraid it's an ugly cycle for a whole lot of people. Get consumed by it, or work to mitigate it.

A few of us won't have significant worries, and that's great too.

Heh, what a difference a comma makes huh?

The best example of that I've seen is this sentence:

I helped my uncle Jack, off the horse.

Try it without the comma!

I will admit that I do not have to worry much about the downturn in the economy because of wise investments that I made in my younger years and that fact that my father is a tad wealthy. But what hurts me is watching my friends struggle when half minded politicians make laws that benefit their tax brackets and their friends. That ONLY hurts the middle class of America and in turn will DAMAGE America greatly.
TRICKLE DOWN doesn't work in this day and age and NEVER will. Find a NEW solution before everythinig is made in China.

What really concerns me are the children, growing up in this situation which will not change for the better any time soon. What about college in their future? What about jobs for these kids in the future? I guess there's always the military. I'll bet the military won't have problems filling their quota in the future. Also we're going to need to keep the military strong for the next ten years with our current plan for the Middle East.

U.S. Economists are beginning to see what's coming. This from yesterdays U.S.A. Today, Money B section, front page:

---------------------Survey Points To Steep Recession---------------------

"The U.S. economy has entered a recession that will be more painful and drawn out than the usual downturn, the director of the Reuters/University of Michigan consumer sentiment survey said Friday. Inflation pressures will linger despite the retrenchment in consumer spending, complicating policymakers' task, the University's Richard Curtin said in a report, citing data from The Conference Board, an industry group. "This is no ordinary recession," he said. "The after-effects will last much longer than the typical downturn.""
_________________________________________________________________

Well there you go. We're most likely heading into an area most of us have never experienced.

bring back Steam powered locomotives....
cheaper to operate than diesel
more powerful.

of course all the people who knew how to run build and maintain them are all gone.....

hey a whole new industry awaits.

old is new

Hey Roger, we're already there.

Stagflation here we come.

Big time.

When the economy falls below 0.7v, everything will stop (except things running on Germanium).

Only someone as vacuous as the Shrub could run the Voltage of the whole country down so low.

That guy is one dim bulb!

....Hey Roger, we're already there.....

Not quite, but at least the thinking is going that direction.....

BUT....

Will they make the infrastructure investment on a scale large enough to to make the difference?

This will be the Norm soon anyway, so why not give them a home?

-----------------------Foreclosed Homes Occupied by Homeless----------------------
"He said there are an average 4,000 homeless in Cleveland on any given night. There are an estimated 15,000 single-family homes vacant due to foreclosure in Cleveland and suburban Cuyahoga County."

Read the entire story by AP:

http://ap.google.com/article/ALeqM5iiqjOXbjCN76vpwnt8Ql4keBUIkgD8USLGL81

Thanks DUHbya!

This reminds me of something that really struck me as cool when I visited Amsterdam- any building that remains vacant for a certain period (and there are lots of them there due to the age and maintenance costs of those buildings) become fair game for squatters. There's a HUGE squatter community there, complete with squat-based cafes and clubs.

Maybe Cleveland should take a look at this.

Squatters should have zero rights. They are nothing more than parasites within a community.

I have to agree. I moonlight as a property manager and my first task was to convince some squatters to become renters with a low ball rental agreement, then after a few months I'm evicting them for failing to pay the rent on time.

Vitalogy, if I may observe, you certainly enjoy a level of personal entitlement and class separation. Imagine now, for a few scary moments that you have nothing. It happens every day in this country to somebody. Some of these folks made even more than you do before the axe fell. My two well invested cents.

Tadc makes a very good point. In the years after World War Two, many old buildings all over Europe were transformed from bombed out crime scenes into communities. There have been clashes, and bad apples, but overall it forced people to see vacant places in a different light. Even some of the governments have conceded that much of the movement was positive. As Skeptical knows first hand, Americans are not always as imaginative.

Building owners who let things go are far worse than squatters. For example, much of the low income housing in our city was left to rot for years. Then, conveniently, one by one, fires led to massive contracts for rebuilding some and selling the rest at a tidy profit.

It is also fairly traditional in our city to create slum conditions in neighborhoods that are slated for future development. Evicting old people, minorities, students and artists when values skyrocket is far easier than doing good business.

Out of state investors are some of the worst offenders. They profit by opening a festering sore in a neighborhood miles away. Meth labs, crack houses or mysterious dead meat odors are sure signs of an absentee landlord.

Our property owners in Portland will often plead ignorance to the inside information, but folks, there is reason behind the madness. Planners draw things up way in advance. In addition, the PDC is one of the more unscrupulous and potentially corrupt parts of our local government.

The Everett Street Lofts were a great example. The PDC convinced folks to take a big risk on a really scary neighborhood, set up a small business and help growth. True to their word, folks invested, dodged the junkies and made a go of it.

As soon as the value of the property jumped, they were all given notice. It took one hell of a fight for them to keep their art studios and apartments, even though they were the reason the neighborhood was nicer. Without art, there is no Pearl.

On the Eastside, one of the worst development blunders happened decades ago. Since then, Moyer built apartments have hosted every vice, abuse and deviance one could imagine. By and large, the houses they replaced were classic Victorians. When those were torn down, the new neighbors were stacked on top of each other, disconnected and the community suffered.

Of course, a restored and converted old house gives one a sense of belonging that no crackerbox will ever duplicate. It also retains value and adds to the character of a street. However, it does not garnish massive city investment like an inside deal for a hundred brand new eyesores.

Damn, Cleveland just makes me sad to read about. Since China took the jobs, make the businesses that stole their livelihood pay for four thousand foreclosed houses and a chicken in every pot.

I hate to end on a sour note, so here is some hope and a worthy fight from the good people of New Orleans.

Littlesongs, squatters are trespassers and freeloaders. I happen to own a rental house, and if I was unlucky enough to lose my tenant and the place was empty for a few months, what gives anyone the right to break in and call it home? I don't think personal entitlement or class separation has anything to do with it.

Nobody's suggesting that someone should be entitled to break in and take over if the place was "empty for a few months".

The suggestion is that if you effectively abandon the place and are waiting for it to fall (or burn) down, you are inviting the trespassers/freeloaders in. This is the de-facto case pretty much anywhere, they have just codified it into law in Amsterdam.

I totally disagree. If you don't own the property, you don't have a right to be using it, no matter what the condition or the justification you can cook up in your head.

Vitalogy, I wish you worked for the BLM or the Forest Service. Tadc is right, I am talking about years of disuse or abuse, not months. If eminent domain is good enough for a freeway, or a subsidized factory, it is good enough for housing.

In the case of the PDC, these were folks who played by the rules, invested thousands and thousands of dollars, risked their necks, created community, and added value. Once they saw that hard work pay off, they were told to simply go away. In the case of Moyer, our neighborhoods were abused for a profit.

I would never suggest "something for nothing" and in Europe, it is far from it. These folks invested a great deal of time and money into making something out of nothing. When property owners failed to carry out their responsibility in the decades after the war, it took a great deal of imagination to restore large portions of their cities.

Squatters, by definition, are getting something for nothing. Otherwise, they'd call themselves renters or owners.

Cool. In the context of our European neighbors, we simply disagree on this point. I have never suggested that your investment property was a slum. However, if it is, I can understand the defensiveness.

So, how about that economy?

Repo Lots Overflow With Reclaimed Cars

USA Today excerpt:

"We're experiencing significant growth in repo volume to the point where we're using additional lots to store them," says Tom Kontos, executive vice president of Indiana-based Adesa Auctions. "Our inventories are growing to record levels," caused by repos on top of a glut of cars coming off leases and out of rental service."

"Our business has skyrocketed," says Patrick Altes, president of Falcon International in Daytona Beach, Fla. In recent times, his service saw a first wave of defaults that involved picking up boats and recreational vehicles. Now, it's cars and trucks, often in affluent neighborhoods."

Here's the entire article:

http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/2008-02-13-repo-man_N.htm

If You're currently out of work and want job security. Becoming a "Repo Man" has a real bright future.

Craiglists has a lot more listings for Repo Men than ever before. Some are even willing to train!

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/trp/580732582.html (SE Portland)

http://portland.craigslist.org/mlt/trp/579567520.html (Gresham)

THANKS DUHbya!
THANKS BRAINWASHED Republican House and Senate!
Thanks Uncle Ronnie for Trickle Down Economics!

This is the automotive counterpart of the housing meltdown - all those "no payments for the first year" and "0% interest" deals coming home to roost!

March 4, 2008

Housing, Deepest Decline Since Great Depression

CHICAGO (MarketWatch) -- Housing is in its "deepest, most rapid downswing since the Great Depression," the chief economist for the National Association of Home Builders said Tuesday, and the downward momentum on housing prices appears to be accelerating.

Read the entire article from Dowjones Marketwatch:

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/housing-deepest-most-rapid-decline/story.a spx?guid=A811AA1E-D0D3-4AA8-917C-95F7F154AA08

I am sooooo thankful we are out from our mortgage.

I wish everyone could have made it but it looks as if a lot of families will be homeless in the future. Not a good outlook. Currently about 2 Million vacant homes in America.

Just thank the Bush administration....

Watershed show this morning on "Coast & Coast AM". I pulled this synopses from the website. I have not added anything to this:
_______________________________________________________________

"Dire Web Bot Predictions
George Ure and his colleague 'Cliff' shared their web bot predictions about America and global events. Their method captures changes in language patterns within Internet discussions. This aggregated data is then processed with software to determine various keywords, which they interpret in a predictive fashion. Emotional events from the future can subconsciously imprint into the present and trickle into language, Cliff further explained."

Here are some of their predictions for the remainder of 2008 (and beyond):

*In late March, look for massive employment to take hold.

*During the summer, a backlash against the US government could involve a call to hold the elections early.

*As the housing industry continues its collapse, there could be a seizure or lock-up of the ability to transfer property.

*A "fuzzy revolution" could involve squatters or collectives moving into empty or foreclosed homes.

*In October, there'll be a major stock market crash or a climate event that has a disastrous effect on the economy.

*There could be a major bank failure, possibly involving a foreign bailout that is reneged upon.

*A "global coastal event" within the next five years will involve a rise in sea levels that will knock out oil refineries.

*There will be an untimely demise for millions by 2012, brought upon by some combination of pandemics, economic collapse, breakdown of health care and unknown energies from space.

...and more importantly, the lizard/human hybrids
that populate all levels of govenment will shed their human forms, call down their alien handlers, and finally subjugate the entire human population. Small groups of humans will retreat to mountainous regions and conduct guerrilla warfare for decades in an attempt to overthrow the new regime........................

Whatever truth is hidden in overnight wacko radio is lost in the presentation... For years the BUY GOLD crowd touted the coming boom and subsequent stock market crash... well duh... Just the cycle of greed and not being happy with steady growth....

Here's a tip, eventually Oil will max out and "collapse" and someone will get stuck. Same for gold/silver Buy gold at 950 then at what price do you sell? How many people got caught up in the silver frenzy and bought at 30 or 40 saw it go to 50 then were still holding it at 4..... My uncle bought 20 thousand dollars worth at 45 dollars an ounce. all these years later he still has it and it's gone up to near twenty..... He is still a loser!

Just greed. for years he was happy with his CDs and bank accounts paying 4-5 percent. Nice piece of property, paid off home, enough to live out his years comfortably... Didn't need "MORE" but had to have it anyway.....

Until there is a fundamental change in investment thinking, segments of the markets will always be susceptable to manipulation. The banks got greedy, and are now in trouble. The U.S. poured enormous sums overseas while neglecting our own infrastructure. Sure, a cheaper U.S. dollar makes our exports more attractive, but we've nothing left to export other than scrap paper and steel. We've dismantled our manufacturing and sold it for cash, we've sold our banking to overseas financiers... See what american pies the Royal bank of Scotland, UBS, Deutches Bank and several other world majors have their fingers in. Now we hurt because our interest rate are low which makes the dollar unattractive to investors. These investors buy other currencies or commodies driving up those prices. Higher rates used to control inflation and spur investment, now we have inflation partially caused by a lower dollar and low interest rates to keep our economy in the buying mode. Trouble is we are still slowing down, companies are still shedding jobs to buoy their stock prices, and inflation presures are soaking discresionary spending... A perfect storm brewing... We're still selling infrastructure for quick cash. Foreign companies have purchased and dismantled factories and shipped them home, our banks are owned by foreign firms, hell, we are even selling our toll roads....Well we got cash fat, but now we are spending the cash for the goods and services we no longer own and produce..... The end of the line is we have no self produced goods and services, and no cash because we had to spend it for the stuff we used to produce........

Now which group of government officials steps up and lays out a very painfully economic solution to fix this scenario? More importantly, who among us would vote for a candidate who would offer such a bitter pill to swallow? No easy answer but there are solutions......

Roosevelt didn't run on that stuff. Once he was in there, he realized what needed to happen and we got the new deal.

That's probably the most likely scenario to play out today as well.

A new deal type effort would be a great help to the troubled investment people. They could change their thinking to deal with our situation today, but I fear that simply means moving their investments elsewhere.

Better to come to Jesus on the implications that come with not making things here anymore.

Fix that, and most of the traditional investment thinking will do just fine.

One reality is that money by itself just doesn't make more money. There has got to be, at the lowest level, the building of wealth to accompany that money, or it's worthless.

Really, holding large pools of money determines who can capture and own that wealth being generated. It doesn't just magicially make more wealth on it's own.

Those investments have to be made in SOMETHING.

Too many people focused on how money works, not why it works the way it does.

$4.00 gas
$4.00 milk
$3.00 bread
$3.00 cheese
Pizza going up 25% in the next 3-6 months
Fresh Vegetables going up 10% in the next 3-6 months!

Thanks DUHbya! YOUR economic policies SUCK!

"Thanks DUHbya! YOUR economic policies SUCK!"

Yep, and Mr. McCain plans on continuing them should be be elected.

You forgot eggs going from 79 cents to 1.79 a dozen... Ouch!


Not all on BOOSH, but his pouring money into the IRAQ rathole certainly sped things along. Remember that congress and the senate both have to sign off on a Presidents game plan. Too many factors came into play. You can indeed say that as a Manager, GEE DUB did not meet expectations.

My fear is that the next group hasn't talked about a plan... Only the fact that they are for kids, health care, education, jobs, housing, alternative fuels, puppy dogs and kittycats....

If you have to raise taxes, OR subsidize any proposed fixes, then it creates another set of problems......

Here's a sore spot to rile you. We have approx 300 million people in country, yet we have the same oil refining capacity as we did at 225 million... Corn isn't the answer. You can't refine it at the same price of oil (hence subsidies) and corn is brutal as a crop. Either you rest the land after each crop, or pile on the fertilizer meaning higher cost. Couple that with less wheat and other crops produced and you have higher feed and food costs. Wind power to generate electricity is a viable option is many area, EXCEPT environmentalists cry foul over the potential for bird kills from the props....

Every proposal will have tradeoffs. What is acceptable to me might not be to you. Me, I want Windmills generating power on the windswept plains, and on the high ground above the Hudson, Ohio, and Mississippi Rivers, along the Pacific...Ocean Shores, Westport, Seaside, Monterrey, Oceanside and countless other regions are mighty breezy. Certainly easier and cheaper than nuke plants without the hazards... Build the infrastucture and generate some electricity. Don't be afraid to cut down some trees, just be smart enought to not strip the whole hillside, and replant what you cut.... Use our own resources produce U.S. oil and pay for it with U.S. Dollars. Take care of our own needs before trying to solve the worlds problems..... I don't want to be the policeman for the world any more. We can't afford it, and the countries we try to help as a whole don't appreciate the meddling. For every Iraqi who thinks we are saviors, another one is rooting for the Iranians. For every starving person in Darfur that we feed, Someone else in the region is wishing them dead...The U.N. was set up to solve the worlds problems... They have failed, and someone out of power will always be there to kill their way to the top at the expense of people who just want to exist. We can't change that, so let's take a timeout and fix our own problems before trying to solve the worlds' Only the Chinese can clean up China, and as the third world rushes to move up the economic ladder, they will have to learn that their growth comes with a cost that they are not willing to pay at this time......

All we gotta do is start making stuff right here, with resources here, people here and our dollars here.

When that starts, most all of this other crap goes away.

. a couple years back, A Ukrainian company bought the assets of a local bankrupt steel mill, dismantled it and shipped it all over there. That is just a microcosm of what ails us...... we sell hi level Jeans to world markets, but have to import the freakin cloth to make them, and the lower dollar makes the cloth cost more and the food and gas the workers buy cost more as well. NET= working people with a lower standard of living.....Simple example but multiply that by how many people? a million? 5 million? 10?

Republicans always leave the Democrats with a deficit.

Yep, that's one thing for sure the current administration is good at, Defecating!

Filled the gas tank today. $55.

On 3/14/07 same gas tank: $44
On 3/21/06 same gas tank: $38.50
On 3/9/05 same gas tank: $32.70
On 3/18/04 same gas tank: $30.47
On 4/17/03 same gas tank: $26.40
On 3/15/02 same gas tank $23.95
On 3/11/01 same gas tank #24.00
On 3/22/00 same gas tank $23.00
On 3/8/99 same gas tank: $21.25

Bush-Cheney energy policy. Any questions?

The oil companies are making record profits....Yeah, it's Bush's fault.

As Mr. Cosby says; RRRRRIIIIIIGGGGGGGHHHHT

http://money.cnn.com/2008/02/01/news/companies/exxon_earnings/

http://money.cnn.com/2007/02/01/news/companies/exxon/index.htm

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2007/feb2007/oil-f03.shtml

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/02/01/business/01cnd-exxon.html?em&ex=1202101200&en= 575e77c5fd8688b0&ei=5087

http://www.reuters.com/article/rbssEnergyNews/idUSL2063082320080125

Need I go on?

Do a Google search for “Oil Company Profits” and see what you come up with.

I'm all for a free market and a capitalist society, but why when the price of crude jumps today does the price at the pump jump the same day when that oil won't be refined and delivered to the consumer for a month or more?

The oil companies are crooks. They have us by the short and curly's and they know it.

Why do I have to pay $200+ for a copy of Office 2007, it only costs MS a few cents to make the cd and print the labels.

its supply and demand.

Do you think the cost of manufacturing something, anything, is all that should be covered in a price point?

If " Yes." then we can just stop now. You are obviously a 6 year old.

If " No." then you just answered your own question.

$200+ for a copy of Office 2007...

You don't!

Get it OEM, stay with he one you have, use Open Office, etc...

Sorry, but that's just stupid on a lot of levels. Back to the thread at hand.

((Bush-Cheney foreign policy) + (Bush-Cheney domestic policy) + (Bush- Cheney energy policy) + (Bush-Cheney tax policy)) x 7.25 years = Ø

Why do I have to pay $200+ for a copy of Office 2007, it only costs MS a few cents to make the cd and print the labels.

For the same reason some medicine costs $30+ per pill.

Development and research costs.

Supply and demand does have something to do with it, especially since MS has a pretty big corner on the market.

Plus when you are paying $200+ at a retailer you have to figure in their markup which is probably 30% or more.

We are a capitalist society. (And that's a good thing!!)

I filled a near EMPTY Geo tank up today - $19 bucks.

Last year it was only $14.50!

Ok, if anyone is convinced we're NOT headed for a Depression. Please tell us how America is going to get out from all this debt?

Where will all this money come from?

Where will the new jobs come from?

You've got about 8 months to fix this.

Already cooked.

Better live small, don't carry debt you don't have to.

We've got to start making things here for the longer term fix.

Damn. We were going to start a desperately-needed kitchen remodel this summer. Think we will have to borrow $15K-$20K to make it happen. We've been living with this shithole 1971 kitchen since we moved here in 1996 getting ready for this year, then a recession hits...

Well, maybe we'll be able to find some good cheap labor. (BTW, anyone want to recommend a good construction guy to give me some advice on removing a wall?)

Major bummer!

Probably are gonna find that labor, given how things are going. The usual gotchas apply, as in you might get what you pay for.

Have any DIY friends you can rope into this thing? It might really pay off if you can trade favors for some mentoring and help with the really tough stuff.

A good friend just got done with a 2 year remodel project. Lots of us helped where we could. House was ~150 or so, now worth ~300 or so. New wiring, walls, floors, etc...

I traded the wiring work for $1,500 I needed to bail myself out of a tough medical situation. The labor would have easily been $4K otherwise. We spread it over a month or so, doing sections at a time, keeping parts of the house hot as needed.

She did a lot of it herself, after learning from others or getting help. Only really paid for serious labor. All the detail stuff was done one evening at a time.

Total cost was about $60K. (and it's most of the house)

With outside labor, it would have easily been double.

A lot of that stuff isn't all that hard. Been surprised at the things we did. I started out doing wiring, because I know how to do that cold.

Ended up putting in floors, doors, framed up new walls, stairs, lots of stuff.

BTW, that 60K included tools. Materials were not all that bad, given good timing when buying them.

Being a kitchen, it's kind of a bummer because you need to use it. The kitchen in her house was fair, and we kind of worked around things and ate some dinners out while it was being done.

Grill works in a pinch too!

For the kitchen, recommend having the cabinets professionally installed! Money well spent! We went with Lowes and were very happy with the product and installation. We did the wood floors, wall removal, and re-wiring ourselves. Turned out pretty good. If you want to try and find discount cabinets there used to be a place on St Helens Hwy I think around 35th called CFO (Cabinet Factory Outlet). We bought our bathroom cabinets there and installed those ourselves.

Just looked on Dex and could not find it but did find this:

Quality Millwork Inc
2700 NW Saint Helens Rd
Portland, OR 97210-2244
(503) 248-9116

Right place, maybe just changed names.

Spray gloss white enamel on your current cabinets and save $15,000. I did. On the house we're selling! I also painted gloss enamel on the outdated vanity surface in both bathrooms and laid 4x4 black tile along the edge for a cheap "expensive" look.

I can do most of the work myself (framing, drywall, electrical, plumbing) but I have one tricky wall that may be carrying some load and I want to take it out. I'm thinking I can do some funky cantilever work in an adjacent attic space to support things, but it all depends on how much load the wall is bearing, if any at all. BTW this is a low-pitch roof California-style tri-level, with most of the midsection of the house being vaulted ceilings - not your standard truss & frame house.

I'll give ya 300 dollars hard cash for that geo...
350 if it's a stick!

White Gloss Enamel is also great for covering that old crappy brick fireplace. Take a little TSP and clean it up then gloss it over, really brightens up a room.

Ok, if anyone is convinced we're NOT headed for a Depression. Please tell us how America is going to get out from all this debt?

Where will all this money come from?

Where will the new jobs come from?

You've got about 8 months to fix this.

A new, new deal would be nice.

Put people to work. The sooner we start, the sooner it gets fixed for the longer term.

I do not believe there is a short term fix, that does not involve essentially selling our sovereignty to others.

Where will all this money come from?
From the taxes that will go sky high if the Democrats have their way.

Where will the new jobs come from?
From independent businesses if there are any left after the Democrats raise taxes so high they go out of business.

So, let's say that's not an option.

What then?

"From the taxes that will go sky high if the Democrats have their way."

I'm talking about right NOW. By the time the Democrats get in, there won't be much left to start with. You can't taxes turnips! The other thing with taxes, we're going to start seeing is our homes worth a lot less than what we paid for them. That will lead to less taxes to pay to Uncle Sam.

The Republicans want to be a nation at war but don't want to pay for it. Now that the GOP has broken the back of American labor, robbed the domestic programs to pay for the Iraq war, and sent the economy into what may be the deepest recession in a long time they are in no position to claim success in economic policy. Meanwhile, the Bush administration has seen to it that its big business interest friends have profited from over 7 years of financial mismanagement that has left the country bereft of military flexibility and the borders porous.

Turning back the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy is not the same as "taxes that will go sky high." Removing incentives to outsource jobs that could remain in America is not the same as "taxes that will go sky high."

The Bush economy has been a farce since day one. Now that the house of cards is on the verge of collapse, I, for one, am not the least bit surprised. The GOP has no solution that their party can even agree on. They won't win back the White House with the
same old stale rhetoric of attacking the Democrats as tax and spend liberals. Bye Bush. Bye GOP. Don't let the the door hit you on the way out.

This just in: With the stock market slide today, we've lost all gains, back to October 2006.

Turning back the Bush tax cuts for the wealthy...

I keep hearing that the tax cuts were only for the wealthy.

As Colonel Potter says: Bull Hockey.

It's just the Democrat Politicians whining because some of their earmark money or slush money is going to be taken away.

It's either that or I'm wealthy (If I am, someone forgot to tell me).

I get at least $3000-$5000 back BECAUSE of Bush's tax cuts that I didn't get back before the cuts were in place.

I'd bet most everyone on this board benefits from the cuts also, but because the liberal democrats have brainwashed so many, no one will admit it.

"I'll give ya 300 dollars hard cash for that geo...
350 if it's a stick!"

It IS a stick, But its also a convertable, so no go. I'm tracking Geos on eBay for the heck of it. Prices for Geos SOLD gave gone up substancially, expecially the 3 cylinder -- which I have. And a convertable PARTS car is at $850, 29 bids. We bought our Geo for $400.

You can have my 45 MPG convertable for $4500.

Get an 88 or 89 Corolla. It's a carb engine, emissions control tech very similar to the GEO.

It will get 40 mpg regularly.

BTW: If you are careful about it, you can hit 50 in the GEO. Had an 88 with carb, and got the 50 plenty of times.

"I keep hearing that the tax cuts were only for the wealthy.
As Colonel Potter says: Bull Hockey.
It's just the Democrat Politicians whining because some of their earmark money or slush money is going to be taken away.
It's either that or I'm wealthy (If I am, someone forgot to tell me).
I get at least $3000-$5000 back BECAUSE of Bush's tax cuts that I didn't get back before the cuts were in place.
I'd bet most everyone on this board benefits from the cuts also, but because the liberal democrats have brainwashed so many, no one will admit it."

I'm beginning to think you don't understand the Bush tax cuts or are assigning tax breaks to the Bush tax cuts incorrectly.

" Great piece in Newsweek here that breaks down the Bush tax cuts and tells the real story of the protect-the-rich agenda of the Bush White House. It points out that the Bush tax plan's most dramatic cuts don't come in income tax... you'll always hear flat tax advocates and the anti-tax hit squads say things like, "Everyone should pay the same amount - whether you make $30,000 or $300,000, your tax rate should be the same."

The problem with that theory is that most people on the low end of the income sale rely on their salaries for their income. Rich folks don't. They get income from dividends, interest, and capital gains, too. And guess where the biggest Bush tax cuts are? Right: those income sources beyond salaries. Bush uses a shell game of sorts, tossing around the anti-tax buzzwords and hoping to confuse the mass public into believing that they benefit from his plan -- but the reality is, those who have the most get the most. The Bush cuts give far more to the have-lots and relatively little to the folks in the middle... and the worst of it is, the anti-tax folks justify it by trying to make you and I resent the have-nots. (How often does the specter of welfare queens popping out child after child while living off the government teat get raised in these debates, either overtly or subtly?)

As Newsweek puts it, "If Bush gets what he wants, the income tax will become a misnomer -- it will really be a salary tax. Almost all income taxes would come from paychecks -- 80 percent of income for most families, less than half for the top 1 percent. Meanwhile taxpayers receiving dividends, interest and capital gains, known collectively as investment income, would have a much lighter burden than salary earners -- or maybe none at all. And here's the topper. In the name of preserving family farms and keeping small businesses in the family, Bush would eliminate the estate tax and create a new class of landed aristocrats who could inherit billions tax-free, invest the money, watch it compound tax-free and hand it down tax-free to their heirs."

Still think that Bush isn't just looking out for the privileged class? Still don't believe that Bush is protecting the rich at your expense? All you flat-taxers out there need to realize something about the Bush plan: it's not even close to what you say you're aiming for. If everyone should pay the same amount no matter what, then we shouldn't be handing out break after break to the rich. Again, from Newsweek:

"The farther up you go in income level, the more important lower taxes on investment income become. So higher-income people tend to get bigger percentage cuts in their total tax burden from Bush's cuts than lower-income people -- the exact opposite of how a progressive tax system is supposed to work."

If you support a "same rate for everyone" plan, then it's wholly hypocritical to support the Bush tax cuts. Bush and the Republicans like to whine about class warfare in the tax conversations. I'll agree with them on one thing: the tax debate right now does in fact involve class warfare. But that's because Bush and his uber-wealthy friends, the richest 1%, have declared war on the rest of us."
http://www.thechroniccurmudgeon.com/archives/2004/04/the_bush_tax_cu.htm

So it would appear that you are, Skybill, wealthier than you let on to be. So quit your whining, because the party will soon be over. Your buddies in the White House will soon be gone, gone, gone, gone, gone ... solid gone!

no, I dont want a rag top..... Mine cost 350, and it truly got every bit of 53 MPG. where's a 50 mpg straight gas car now, and why did they retire it? the replacement Aveo doesn't even get 40 MPG... Had to let mine go after 355,000 miles the lifetime brakes and exhaust were no longer available at Advance auto parts though I was welcome to buy another company's lifetime parts... as rusty as the body was, the 300 dollars wasn't worth it but the damn thing sure ran great!

.....Bush and his uber-wealthy friends, the richest 1%, have declared war on the rest of us."

Problem is most of those making the decisions are in the group benefiting, from those tax cuts....
Didn't hear Teddy K, or Hillary and Bill refuse theirs.

In all seriousness, Whoever wins in NOV, will not be looking out for the average guy..... Hear Hillary and Mr. Obama Slam NAFTA to the Ohio Union boys, Then send apologies to the Canadian PM after the debate for the anti NAFTA comments..... I really don't see anyone leveling the playing field, punishing those that ship the jobs out, lowering the tax burden of the working stiff, and fixing our own financial house.....
Come Jan 2009, New Face, same game......

"Come Jan 2009, New Face, same game......"

Let me correct You:

Come Jan 2009, New World Order, same game......

That damn nWo!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MROMXNWVhXk

Revisionist History and exagerations of the truth is what we would have to deal with if Hogan were the real leader of the NWO.

Thanks for the laugh Trixter. One of the greatest wrestling angles ever that way overstayed its welcome!

Yep. The beginning of the end for WCW basically.

I wonder sometimes if we will ever see wrestling on The Superstation TBS ever again? I think its another year before the clause in the contract that McMahon has says that the Time Warner stations can air wrestling.

Sorry for the thread jack peoples. What do you all think the market is gonna do in the next week? Continued slow decline? How long will it be before we see the Dow at 10,000 points or below? Will it dip even further than that? How long before we start seeing other cities like Cleveland in the same predicament?

Skybill, you do not get a $3000-$5000 benefit from the Bush tax cuts. I'm a 6 figure household, and even I don't get that kind of benefit from the Bush tax cuts. Not to mention, if you make less than $250K per year, you have nothing to worry about if taxes do go up.

What's better, charging the rich more, or charging the national credit card more? I will have to pay a share that credit card balance in the form of higher taxes or less services some day. I won't pay more if they raise taxes for those above $250K. And I sure as hell ain't shedding a tear for those fat cats that will have to pay more. Boo hoo!!

And, why are folks that make $50K per year SO WORRIED about taxes going up for millionaires??

Western Wash Real estate is overinflated as well, but not suffering the job losses ...YET.... No part of the country is immune, and there are just as many in retail people with mortgages there as well. The stock market turn has cost my wife half of her 401k. Problem with them is the limited investment choices stocks, bonds or mix, and while overseas mix is up right now, a tanking of the U.S. economy will turn those around too.....

I thought the NWO was a rap group.........

Yeah, why is that?

All I know is that I used to be worried about that. The reasons were:

-might make my own and would want to keep it

(debunked: Having made that much, it's easy to leverage it and make more. No brainer.)

-if they do well, we do well

(debunked: just look at things now. Markets up, down, middle, things still suck. They will keep the dollars and bitch about not being able to keep more. Building jobs here is all about lower paying ones, outsourcing everything else that might actually pay a solid wage.)

-we need those people

(debunked: Consolidation has brought us nothing but lower service levels per dollar. Moving wealth to the top just means it will stay there. Trickle down has failed twice now.)

To add to your statement Vitalogy, they made the profit at our expense, meaning it really wasn't profit. More like a redistribution, which is a very different thing.

Real profit, that does not harm all of us, comes from innovation applied to labor over time to create value.

THAT ISN'T HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, and is why we are in the hurts we are in.

Now, redistribution is simply moving value that already exists higher up the chain. Result, more value distributed over less people.

We still have the national burden to meet, so if we are not creating wealth, and concentrating what wealth we do have at the top, then the majority of people are gonna have to pick up the slack.

So really, those profits at the top of the chain are not signs of healthy growth and innovation, but rather a measure of the increased burden we all have to carry.

IMHO, this boils down to theft.

"profits at the top of the chain

Exactly. The money circulates at the top and that's what the shrub means by "basic economic factors are good."

What a crock of sh*t.

U.S. Dollar Plunge Sets Off Global Alarm Bells

The Telegraph:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/money/main.jhtml?xml=/money/2008/03/14/cndollar114.xm l

------------------Mortgage Defaults Force Denver Exodus------------------

"On Some Denver Blocks, as Many as One-Third of Residents Have Lost Their Homes".

"Foreclosures are ripping through the rows of new homes in the flatlands where Denver turns to prairie. Every week, 10 more families here need to find someplace else to live."

Read the entire article from abc News:

http://www.abcnews.go.com/Business/Economy/story?id=4570950&page=1

Thanks DUHbya and Co.
TRICKLE DOWN DOESN'T WORK!!!!!!

27 more days, just 27 more days is all I need.


(I've a house in Waldport that we've sold and is now in escrow. It'll close in less than 27 days if the bottom of the economy doesn't drop out.)

Bush economy on fire

Citigroup Records A Loss ... Plans 9,000 layoffs

Managers Among 4,650 Losing AT&T Jobs

Dell: Layoffs bigger than expected

AMD makes massive layoffs

13 more days.

(Fixed the roof, replaced the dry rot under the shower, took care of an ant problem, waiting for cabinet doors . . .)

Another 3,000 jobs lost at Merrill Lynch.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/Economy/wireStory?id=4671760

Here's a quote from The Sunday Oregonian "Outlook" section "Communities .08" Page W17:

------------------Home Building Slide Hurts Rural Oregon-------------------
----------Declining construction brings layoffs and unemployment-----------

"In January, nationwide applications for new home construction were the slowest in 17 Years."

"In the West, new home construction was at its lowest level since record keeping began in 1959, according to the U.S. Commerce Department."
________________________________________________________________

I always get scared when we run off the chart like we just did!

Bringing all this home to roost. Todays Oregonian, front page of Business:

----------------------Oregonians Losing Jobs By Hundreds-----------------------

http://www.oregonlive.com/business/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/business/1209178520 201560.xml&coll=7

The economy isn't as bad as once thought....

LOL!

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24384893/