Author: Missing_kskd
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 9:25 am
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This ended up being a family discussion. Thought it would be entertaining here too. We ended up believing they do. Their souls do not burn as bright as ours do, of course, but they do burn and are easily seen when one is close to an animal. Some people believe animals are just kind of on auto-pilot, governed by a lot of hard wired behavior, conditions responses, tuned to basic needs. Anyone here in that camp? It's hard to support that when one sees things like: (and maybe just sharing some animal stories would be fun!) My favorite cat, Zoe, jumps up on her chair, looks at the fireplace, then the wood box, then me! When I look away, then return my attention her way, she does it again, stands up, curls the tail, and just looks me in the eye, like "So? Where is it?" I go to build the fire, need some stuff, and get followed. If I'm off the path, she gets my attention, makes noise, and generally gets unsettled, until I get back on task. Having made the fire, she then, sits near it, watching it until it's gone. ...I'm sleeping and awaken to a foot, placed as nicely as possible on my forehead. Open my eyes and there is the cat, looking at me, again with the tail moving slowly back and forth, between the curl and a straight up position. I move, and she jumps to the window, looking out, at me, then out, prep to jump, waiting... I come home from work, and she finds me straight away. Wants to be held, so I do this. Each time she smells, looks and smells some more. After a time, she leaves and does her thing. After years of this, I finally realize what is happening! She wants to know about my day. Where I've been, have I had food, was it wet, what kind of mood am I in? Never understood why she wanted to be held after coming in. She is telling me the same thing! After a smell, I realize she has been sitting under the rose bush, rolling in the lawn, was where it was wet, and had some food recently, and in a frisky mood, maybe time to play a little? Interesting no? Instinct, or an intelligence with enough in common with ours, to see common ground and bond?
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Author: Entre_nous
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 10:10 am
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I have had animals, large and small, all of my life. I really can't imagine life without them. When my first horse was carrying her second foal, she would let me take naps with her in the pasture.(I was 7 yrs old) My Mom would come home to find us both passed out in the grass. When the foal arrived, she and I did the same thing. She would sleep with her head in my lap, and follow me into the house! The bond between "predator" and "prey" is truly a blessing. When a horse allows you to become one, too, exchanging breath nose to nose, looking you right back in the eye, and running to you at your call for nothing more than an ear rub and a kind word, it's hard to imagine them not having a soul. They certainly can choose not to allow you access. On the way to my home in Amboy (WA), there were certain spots where you just expected deer to cross the road, and adjusted accordingly. I came around the bend, and a doe was crossing with her brand-new fawn (baby spots, even!) They stopped, and the fawn walked right up to my window (which was down) and started telling me a story, little bleats and whistles. He was not afraid, and the doe just waited for him. Some really powerful stuff, for me. My friend Julie was with me and we couldn't stop talking about it. I'm sure I saw purpose in that fawn's eyes, and since he had nothing to gain, nor was conditioned to humans, "soul" works for me! Definitely, a waking dream-walk with my spirit guide... @Missing: cats are the best bosses I've ever had: Clear and defined priorities, expectations, and repercussions when the burden is not met. According to mine, the Egyptians had it right, oh, those were the days
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Author: Vitalogy
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 10:35 am
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If humans have souls, then so do animals. If animals don't have souls, humans don't either. That's how I see it.
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Author: Darktemper
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 11:35 am
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You want Proof Positive, i've got it at my house. Every night I see the unquestioning love that our guide dog pup in training has for anyone and everyone and I believe that in order to have the ability to love there must be a soul present. But you need to define it a little better than any animal though. For I am not so sure about say a shark, snake, or lizard. Those creatures seem to be purely instinctual in nature without regard for others of their own species. I would say that being Warm-Blooded would be the qualifier.
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Author: Chickenjuggler
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 11:41 am
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They have souls.
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Author: Alfredo_t
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 1:20 pm
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I don't believe in supernatural phenomena, such a souls, so I would have to answer the question with a "no." However, I do think that, to varying degrees, animals have various aspects of consciousness, such as emotions, memory, and the ability to think. The degree to which they have these aspects depends on how sophisticated their nervous systems are.
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Author: Trixter
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 3:27 pm
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Well said Alfredo.
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Author: Edselehr
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 4:26 pm
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Vitalogy's answer works best for me so far. Though Alfredo explains it well.
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Author: Littlesongs
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 4:53 pm
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Great discussion. I'd love to be empirical about this topic, but I just thought about my cat and he came to the back door. "Here kitty kitty" must be for the duller ones. I'd better rustle him up some dinner.
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Author: Missing_kskd
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 5:03 pm
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soul noun - "that which makes us unique" Does that make it easier?
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Author: Jr_tech
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 5:32 pm
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Can animals think, reason? Is that what makes us unique? Read about Alex the Parrot: http://www.123compute.net/dreaming/knocking/alex.html When searching for an article on Alex, I just read that the bird died in September... if he had a soul, may it rest in peace.
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Author: Chickenjuggler
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 7:42 pm
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What about frogs?
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Author: Edselehr
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 8:26 pm
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I like frogs.
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Author: Littlesongs
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 8:34 pm
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What if your kite wraps around a power line?
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Author: Missing_kskd
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 9:06 pm
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So do I. Frogs are cool. I don't think I've enough in common with a frog to get along with one though. LOL guys! Little: STEP AWAY FROM THE STRING AND GO TELL MAMMA.
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Author: Darktemper
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 9:09 pm
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Frog's are GREAT....they taste like Chicken!
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Author: Missing_kskd
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 9:10 pm
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Dark, I totally agree. I'm pretty sure our animals love us the best they can. Those other animals though. Is it they are something less, or that we just don't share enough in common with them to make deeper bonds?
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Author: Darktemper
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 9:14 pm
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Pure instinct, no emotion, no thought, just action and reaction. Eat, Breed, Die.
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Author: Edselehr
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 10:34 pm
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Missing on LS's question: BZZZZZZZ! WRONG. The correct answer is (all together now): CALL PACIFIC POWER! (If this all seems strange, you're a PNW newbie)
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Author: Missing_kskd
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 11:03 pm
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Holy crap! Of course! I completely missed it. And how many times have we all heard that damn spot? (not enough) Hey, can I get half credit? Calling Pacific Power, runs through mamma a lot of the time! Yeah, I'm reaching. Will go back to thinking about what Dark said. That bothers me some. Not sure why, but it does. I've watched these kinds of animals. I know somebody with a pet lizzard. It's not convincing to me though. For all I know, maybe my friend is simply too big to consider food, so the damn thing just tolerates him. That's not true of the cat or dog. They've got emotion and a bond. They miss people, desire specific ones at specific times, often for specific reasons. That's really not a lot different than we are, but for lack of vocal language and abstractions. Koko the Gorilla has both of these! (well, sign language, but that's close enough) That animal knows 2K words, and has asked for and loved it's own pets! It can coin a term, and often makes multiple associations like we do. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koko_(gorilla) First heard about Koko in National Geographic as a kid. Have kept up with development, from time to time, over the years. Amazing stuff.
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Author: Darktemper
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 11:15 pm
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Simply said, cold blooded reptiles, insects, and fish are running on just instinct, no soul so to speak. I just think that being warm blooded is the qualifier and/or separator. Very soulful. Cats and Dogs, absolutely have intelligence and thought, can love, and express themselves in unique ways.
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Author: Entre_nous
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 11:36 pm
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Guys, you forgot "DON'T TOUCH IT!" Guess it boils down to your definition of "soul". Do you think we relate to the warm blooded as soulful because they interact with us, and we can put their behaviors in human terms? Although I echo the feelings everyone has expressed about their furry companions, I'm thinking about what Alfredo_t said.
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Author: Randy_in_eugene
Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 1:12 am
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I've always wondered what would happen if one were to try proselytizing a gorilla via sign language. I think Koko, or some other primate was once asked, "Where will you go when you die?" The answer was "Comfortable hole."
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Author: Skeptical
Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 1:21 am
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Actually, there are some argument the primates are merely mimicking humans. As for the soul question, my answer is no. Sorry. I want to get an "A" on this test.
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Author: Mikekolb
Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 5:54 am
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If you believe that animals have souls, then indeed they do.
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Author: Amus
Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 7:09 am
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They say that the eyes are the window to the soul. Can you look into your pets eyes and have any doubt?
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Author: Darktemper
Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 7:18 am
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Extremely loud Echo on that man! As far as what Alfredo said, I do not view a soul as being a super-natural thing, for me, IMHO, it is about ones faith, the belief that there is something after this plane of existance, a place where the fire in our soul burns on forever. I can't buy into the notion that after we die that is it, get put into a hole and that is all she wrote. Faith, Faith that there is something else, something..... If not heaven or hell then something like a Nexus (a central hub between the realms of existence). Maybe it is heaven and hell, in that, you recieve from it what you carry into it. Ok...that was deep! Yes, animals have souls!
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Author: Brianl
Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 8:25 am
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Amus - you are absolutely right about looking into an animals eyes and not having a doubt. Now how can ANY of us not feel all mushy when our dog gives us that "puppy dog eyes" look and not just melt? I have a 100 lb Rottweiler who is old enough to start turning gray on her snout, and I STILL get all warm and fuzzy when she stares at me with those big brown eyes. I just hope all animals go to animal heaven. If the animal has issues, it's not the fault of the animal, it's the fault of the idiot HUMAN who owns/breeds the animal. The human is the one who deserves to go to hell for screwing them up, not the animal!
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Author: Wobboh
Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 11:15 am
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Ducks have souls. If Beavers did have souls, they'd be condemned to eternal damnation.
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Author: Amus
Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 11:51 am
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So if you look into a Beaver and see a soul....Duck!
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Author: Darktemper
Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 1:01 pm
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For some reason I have this sudden urge to fly south and rent "Howard The Duck"!
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Author: Chickenjuggler
Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 3:15 pm
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I dare someone to tell me Bumpity didn't have a soul.
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Author: Trixter
Wednesday, December 05, 2007 - 9:25 pm
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Bumpity AIN'T got no soul!
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Author: Darktemper
Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 7:41 am
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But he sure had a friend who gave him a Hand all of the time!
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Author: Shane
Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 10:32 am
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Some people don't believe in the concept of the soul at all. So I don't think people will ever agree on whether animals have souls. I think a lot of people believe that the only beings with souls are the beings who can know their creator, and are self-aware. I don't really have a strong opinion about it, honestly. I can't change it and can probably never know for sure, so I don't worry about it.
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Author: Andy_brown
Thursday, December 06, 2007 - 1:42 pm
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Those who don't believe in a soul may be defining the word narrowly. There is more than a religious connotation to a soul. It's spiritual. Religion doesn't own spirit any more than the bible thumpers own America, although they would deny they think so. A person's moral or emotional nature or sense of identity is one definition, which is difficult to refute. The soul is the essence of one's existence. The emotional or intellectual energy or intensity especially as revealed through one's art or performance is soul. The animals had soul long before man walked the earth. Those that don't see it just haven't looked for it. My cat has soul. My catfish has soul. James Brown had soul. Whether or not you have "a soul" that is eternal is a horse of a different color.
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Author: Shane
Friday, December 07, 2007 - 10:52 am
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You're right, I was sticking to a pretty narrow definition. I meant an internal entity that contains your spirit which consciously lives on after you die.
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