Dumbing down the youth and hope of America. I just thought you conservatives out there would like to read this and rush to defend King Redneck's No Child Left Behind. It's working SOOOOOOO well.

http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1688508,00.html?xid=rss-topstorie s

Lots of reasons for that, in the US, everyone is entitled to a free education through 12th grade.

The US hasn't gone far enough to go back to teaching the basics reading , writting, and mathmatics.

Too much time is spent in teaching social values, and not holding children accountable.

No child left behind....

Behind the bus!

It's not working


Too much time is spent in teaching social values.

Isn't that the EXTREME RIGHTS mantra???

I've been interacting with a fair number of educators lately. I don't know any of them that say NCLB is a net good.

Then look to Ted Kennedy as well. He co-sponsored it.

Herb

It it Bush's responsibility to carry out the law, and that is where the primary failure lies. The goals of NCLB are laudable, but to hold schools and students accountable for improvement without providing the funding necessary to realize the improvement, failure is inevitable.

Wait a minute.

Why is it Mr. Bush's responsibility? It's congress who both co-sponsors and funds, and the states who implement NCLB.

Sounds ham-fisted to me. Cut the lame duck a break. All this food talk is making me hungry.

Herb

As a person who has a wife and a mother who work in public schools, I can tell you that NCLB is a disaster for two reasons: One, it's not fully funded and two, there's more emphasis on testing than there is on actual learning, due to the penalties of not having students pass those tests. NCLB should be completely scrapped.

"Why is it Mr. Bush's responsibility?"

The legislative branch legislates, the executive branch executes. Congress opens or closes the purse, but cannot force the president to spend money he is given.

"Sounds ham-fisted to me. Cut the lame duck a break."

A doe-eyed Girl Scout selling cookies at your door would sound ham-fisted to you. And this lame duck has earned absolutely no free passes.

"One, it's not fully funded and two, there's more emphasis on testing than there is on actual learning, due to the penalties of not having students pass those tests."

Then what's the democrat plan to hold schools and teachers accountable? The NEA lobby is essentially in the pocket of the democrats. It really is the fox guarding the chicken coop. Uh oh. More food.

There have to be SOME checks and balances in place here. I've heard it's very, very hard to fire a bad teacher...and while there are many more good ones, given the education lobby's trashing of school vouchers, where poor kids TRULY have a choice, we all know how powerful the education lobby is, and that bad teachers do exist.

What really burns my craw is that democrats vote against school vouchers...whilst sending THEIR kids to private schools. Hypocrisy in action.

But wait, there's more:

"While just 12.2 percent of U.S. families send their children to private schools, that figure rises to 17.5 percent among urban families in general and to 21.5 percent among urban public school teachers, almost twice the national average."

http://www.heartland.org/Article.cfm?artId=15818

Herb

Then look to Ted Kennedy as well. He co-sponsored it.

He's a drunk just like DUHbya. What's your point???

Nice ad hominem attack.
I provide facts and they're met once more with no substance, just a ham-fist.
Why don't you democrats call Trix on his drivel at least once in a while?

Herb

Just like YOU neo-CONers....

"There have to be SOME checks and balances in place here. I've heard it's very, very hard to fire a bad teacher...and while there are many more good ones, given their trashing of school vouchers for poor kids to TRULY have a choice, we all know how powerful the education lobby is, and that bad teachers do exist."

You offer some thoughtful comments. Being in a teacher's union, I can tell you that they are all about making sure teacher's rights are protected. It is a precarious situation, because students are not widgits, and "quality teaching" is very subjective. A poor teacher in a room full of talented, motivated students will generate better results than an excellent teacher in a room full of disaffected, disconnected and less talented students. But if evidence shows that a teacher is doing a disservice to the students in the classroom, then the union is no more interested in keeping that teacher than then the district would be. Yet, it is the obligation of the union to protect the teacher's right to fair dismissal.

School vouchers allow tax money to be extracted from the public school (money that doesn't belong to the parents of the student BTW, but to the taxpayers as a whole) which is bound by many federal, state and local regulations, and let that money go to private schools with far fewer regulations. If the public schools could pick and choose students as they please in the same way that private schools could, then the public school success rate would skyrocket. But, public schools MUST accept any student in the attendance area and is obligated by LAW to serve the needs of that student, any may only 'expel' that student for excessive absenteeism or extreme misconduct.

Vouchers are just another way to rig the system against public schools. Hold private schools to the same standards as public schools, then let's talk about vouchers.

Right on, Edselehr!

Andrew

"What really burns my craw is that democrats vote against school vouchers...whilst sending THEIR kids to private schools. Hypocrisy in action."

Not at all. Any and all people should have the right to home school, or send their students to private schools if they wish, as long as they are not asking taxpayers to support that choice. Vouchers are a way for people to buy a private education with public money. That's basically a form of welfare - and you are in favor of it?

Logic and demographics would tell me that urban folks have a higher percentage of their kids going to private school BECAUSE THEY CAN AFFORD IT.

I wouldn't dare send my children to private school. If you can't cut it at a public school, you certainly won't cut it in the real world. Plus, my personal experience with friends that went to private school versus those of us that went to public school, none of my private school buddies have amounted to squat, while all us poor publicly educated people now enjoy 6 figure incomes. Go figure.

Well then its obvious, President Bush hates kids. Especially Trixters kids.

I don't think Bush hates kids, he's just misguided in his policies. Since he was born with a silver spoon in his mouth from day one, he really has no idea how the common person lives.

But, part of my wonders if NCLB is a back door way to eliminate public education all together.

Frankly, public education is the biggest "socialist" program in the nation. Free to all comers, and available in every corner of the U.S.. And it is still largely a fortress against blatent commercialism - advertisers are constantly trying to get access to the captive audience that is the 8-18 year old student sitting in class for six hours a day. Of course, the neocons want to see it go away.

I think it's a way to hobble public education, for sure. It's a negative reinforcement that's aimed at generating a positive result. (this almost never works!)

I'm totally not for vouchers of any kind. Agreed completely with the comments made on how that will impact public schools.

Also agreed on the "can't cut it in public school" comment! Right on target there! (my experiences are similar, BTW. most of them spoiled, incompetent, entitled, snobs)

Think of it this way. You've one kid, kept sheltered, clean, not exposed to the environment much at all. Then you've got another kid, really living outside, getting dirty, etc...

The second kid will have adapted to outside conditions far better than the first one would have. This will have translated into a more robust adult life as lots of little annoyances really factor out. Not catching so many colds, higher tolerance for less than perfect conditions, and other similar kinds of things.

One really outstanding attribute public schools have is they are simply filled with lots of different kinds of people! This expands on ones capacity for tolerance and conflict resolution, right at the age where it's really gonna have some serious impact. To me, this is absolutely key to getting along in adult life, where this is the norm, for all but some extreme class cases.

We are human after all. You can deny the humanity, but there is absolutely no avoiding it.

Having watched my kids go through school, the single biggest problem facing us today, where educating kids is concerned, happens to be getting parents involved. Fix that and a whole lot of stuff changes for the better.

Where parents are unwilling or worse, unable to get involved with their kids, the problems are greater. There are all sorts of little variations here and there, but the general trend is pretty damn hard to hide.

These kinds of problems are all linked to basic things. Such things include:

-lack of energy
-lack of support
-inability to tolerate others (boundary issues)
-lack of supplies, means methods
-high stress family environment (conflict)
-poor conflict resolution skills (anger management)
-inability to prioritize (meeting basic needs, vs learning, vs free time, play)
-poor health
-poor core values (lying, stealing, cheating, misguided pride, etc...)

A great deal of our available teacher to student time is consumed by manifestations of these things! At some schools, the percentage of problem kids is low. At others, it's fairly high and this impacts the educators in a big way. Those same educators, faced with similar distributions of student readiness would perform in a similar manner, and that's so often overlooked it's just funny.

Getting away from "the bad kids" is at the top of the list for those I know wanting to get vouchers. They want to move their kids to the "good schools", and of course, those "good schools" would quickly suffer from any number of things as a result of those moves, but nobody talks about that either.

We experienced (and to a degree still do) the bad kid syndrome. Moving our kids to another school might have dodged the issue. For us, this really was not an option.

So, my wife went down there and attended class! Got death threats, heard language that would make anyone here blush, caught kids stoned, you name it, all of it was happening.

Took about two months of hard work to deal with it, in my kids classes. My wife began regularly attending key classes, assisting the teacher and taking notes. Also, when behaviors permitted, she would help students out, when she felt good about the material being presented.

Also started calling parents, making a few visits, and showing those teachers some real support. Many of those parents had NO IDEA. For those, things changed damn quick. Some parents did have an idea, but could do little about it, for a whole lot of reasons. From our perspective, it was win some lose some.

All boiled down to about 10 king pins. Get them on the right path, and the rest of the followers and fan boys / girls would more or less just do the same thing, so that's exactly what we worked hard to make happen.

This was a few years ago. Our last is moving through the school and is one of those "bad kids" right now. (arrgh!!!)

We've got support through the roof! Not a person down there unwilling to give us some help, tell us stuff and help with options. Give a little, get a little. Worked for us. Was not easy, but neither was moving.

All of the trouble we are seeing in the middle class is only making this worse too. My wife and I were lucky in that she does not have to work much. (we just don't live all that big) Many (and I mean most) families have both parents working, or a single parent.

In both those scenarios, that's a huge amount of parent kid educator time lost and where that time is lost, kids run astray, problems often not caught until they develop into major issues, which takes more time to resolve than it would have otherwise.

Hate to say it, but a lot of the policies being advocated by most voucher supporters are directly impacting the quality of their schools. It's an ugly cycle, and one that's just not being talked up enough.

(A whole bunch of the blame for that crap, lies with our mainstream corporate media, with it's corporate bias)

Getting "better teachers" is also very high on the list.

I question that frankly. I'm quite sure we've got some bad eggs. They are always there, no matter what, but they are just not concentrated in one school or another, but just there, among their peers. Worst case, there might be a clump of them somewhere.

The average student is going to experience a few bad teachers. IMHO, this is a damn good experience! If one cannot adapt to this, what happens when one gets a "bad boss", or something similar?

This is gonna happen too, so why not empower the kids to deal, rather than try to shelter, control and avoid? We chose the empower route, of course, unless the educator warranted some greater action. (one or two have) Before taking that action though, we as parents made damn sure we were on the high ground before just blaming the teacher and acting accordingly.

(this does not happen as much as it should either!)

Given there are always some percentage of poor performing people, there really is no avoiding this stuff, dealing is the only real option, if one thinks about it.

I've also experienced seeing a whole lot of voucher wanting people, who seem to have issues of their own!

Going to a religious school is pretty high on the list. Hear that one a lot actually. Usually hear it mixed with the other top hitters. I'm not sure this is a valid reason for vouchers. We've church, home and activity time to work that angle. Not worth devaluing schools over.

Finally, also agreed that Bush does not hate kids. Really don't see that in him actually. Too much ideology impacting his policies are the problem, not the actual desire to improve on our kids education.

I have educators in the family who would agree with Edselehr. One thing to keep in mind for us Oregon residents is that when NCLB was being introduced Oregon's standards we already at or above the national standard. We had checks and balances already in place and it was working.

Of course those standards need to be tweaked or adjusted, but Oregon was there.

In talking with my kids public school teachers that first year NCLB was infused into the school system, I heard more complaints from teachers who said they had become test givers and not teachers. You teach to the test and not to a kids learning style. One size does not fit all in education. To me that is where Bush's policy truly fails.

So much of the time educators are left out of the decision making process when it comes to programs like NCLB.

“my personal experience with friends that went to private school versus those of us that went to public school, none of my private school buddies have amounted to squat, while all us poor publicly educated people now enjoy 6 figure incomes.”

I have not seen that in my friends who went to private high schools. Plus income level doesn’t represent intelligence or lack of it.

Just felt that was a bit of a sweeping generalization.

Well then its obvious, President Bush hates kids. Especially Trixters kids.

And ALL the kids in the Hillsboro School Dist.

"You teach to the test and not to a kids learning style. One size does not fit all in education."

Then what's the democrat plan to elevate our nation's standing in education? Our scores are not great compared to other nations. As I recall, we're slipping and are being beaten especially badly in math and reading. I say back to basics.

Herb

It's not a democratic or republican issue...it's an education issue. I can't fault Bush for trying to help our system, however he went about it the wrong way. If any Dems went along with it then they were just as much to blame.

Get educators involved. Talk to the people on the front lines of our public education system. Look at regional and local programs that are working. Allow states to implement their own programs or continue with the ones that are successful.

I don't believe vouchers are the answer at this time. But the wild card in all this is the parents and or guardians of our school age kids. Talk to teachers and with few exceptions, they can pretty much tell what kind of a home life a kid has based on what they bring to the classroom.

No vouchers. Public schools HAVE to educate all kids, while private schools can reject kids. If vouchers are gonna be allowed for private schools, we're gonna have to divvy up the worst of the worst at public schools and send some to private schools.

Fair is fair. Otherwise, no vouchers, period.

Where's the 'choice' democrats are always talking about? Seriously. Not only do democrats effectively deprive choice to the pre-born, but by opposing vouchers outright, they deprive choice to kids in school, too.

If poor kids can use a voucher good for any school, public or private, you'd see more accountability among the foxes guarding the education henhouse simply due to competition. That's a good thing.

Why should only kids of the wealthy get to pick and choose where they attend school? Kids in private schools consistently demonstrate higher scores at a fraction of the cost. And if ALL students are given vouchers, it's a phoney argument that only below average students will remain in public schools. Bologna. Poor kids and kids with low scores will simply go to the school that's best...private or public.

If one is a populist, as I heard Mr. Huckabee described by a commentator today, then let's all leave the partisanship at home. Otherwise, it's yet another lame excuse whilst pandering to the NEA base. Who suffers? It's the kids. I think I might become a populist.

Herb

There's a choice. If we allow vouchers, we also give private schools some of the bottom of the barrel kids they can't reject. Can't have it both ways.

"Kids in private schools consistently demonstrate higher scores at a fraction of the cost."

Of course they do. When you are allowed to pick and choose the students you educate, it's expected that those select students should score higher and cost less to educate.

And if you think vouchers will solve anything, think again. All vouchers will do is consolidate the best students to the best schools. There's a finite amount of "best schools" and not everyone can attend the best schools, and we all know how the selection process would go with vouchers. It would leave the poorest and most challenging kids with the schools that perform the worst.

"It would leave the poorest and most challenging kids with the schools that perform the worst."

As my French pals would say, 'Au Contraire.' Why would parents send their kids to any but the best one for their child? They may have to reach a little more to achieve, but I say open the doors to any kid who wants a shot at a better education.

What I'm hearing is that competition doesn't work. Yet you guys get your socks in a knot when there's no open bidding against Halliburton. 'No competition' you yell.

You can't have it both ways.

It's not a zero sum game, either. All schools can improve. Competition is the vehicle to get there. Embracing mediocrity is not an option simply to appease the NEA.

Herb

"Competition is the vehicle to get there."

Competition is good when the playing field is level.

"Why would parents send their kids to any but the best one for their child?"

1) inconvenient/impractical/impossible to transport the student to the "best" school on a daily basis.

2) Voucher only pays part of the cost (the "best" school is private and very expensive, so the voucher only covers part, and parents cannot afford to pay the balance).

3) The "best" school in the area according to test scores is private, but also has a star and crescent above the door; yes, it is run by a mosque. No reason not to send your kids to this "best" school, right Herb?

"All schools can improve. Competition is the vehicle to get there. Embracing mediocrity is not an option..."

Schools provide a universal public service for the betterment of the entire community, no different than police or fire. Shall we apply your competition model to those areas as well? Contract out fire and police to private companies, let them "compete" to see who does it better (not sure what the metric or standard would be there) then reward the best? If this seems farfetched, then why doesn't the idea of privatizing public education?

Actually, I'm not 100% sure of the right answer in all this. Here's the link to a Frontline report on Edison Schools, a for-profit education company contracted by some struggling districts back east. Take a look; they can't seem to find a clear answer either.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/edison/inside/

Didn't know about Edison Schools. Very interesting read --thanks!

Herb, what happens when you have the best school with 250 slots and you have 700 kids applying? That school would hand pick the best 250 kids to attend. The 450 left overs apply to the second best school, but that school only has 200 slots, so they hand pick the best 200 kids to attend. The 250 left overs apply to the third best school, but they have only 150 slots, so they hand pick the best 150 leaving the last 100 of the most undesirable kids to attend what is regarded as the worst school.

Vouchers would create a draft system where the best schools would draft the best students. This would create far more inequity than we currently have.

Maybe we ought to be doing the FIRE or POLICE voucher thing then, hmm.

I just figured out the One Thing Bush Does Really Well....

He makes Democrats look good.

Edselehr, I respect your contributions to teaching kids. If you're a public school teacher you work hard. At the same time, you also have a vested interest in the situation.

I've attended both public and private schools and am not an educator. That being the case, I have an arguably more objective, albeit not necessarily always as nuanced, view.

That's my opinion.

Herb

I've always found that those that work in a specific industry tend to know more what they are talking about than those that don't, when it comes to said industry.

Since I am not Herrbocrite, I have an arguably more objective, albeit not necessarily always as nuanced, view.

Herrbocrite, that may go down as one of your dumbest, yet most egotistical posts ever. What a tool.

That's MY opinion.

I understand your anger. Since you provide little more than ad hominem attacks, it's clear that you have no argument.

And rather than being objective, you simply have invective.

Herb

I understand your anger. Since you provide little more than ad hominem attacks, it's clear that you have no argument.

Herb... Looked in the mirror latley??? You really should take some time for yourself and get a tune-up.

Herb, that's not fair at all.

Once again, the sheer number of unanswered posts on your account, is easily the highest here for the longest time running.

Frustration and anger builds with each one too. Over time --and it has been a significant amount of time, it manifests into posts like Mrs M just posted.

Look at the recent deal with you and Amus. He asked for some support on your President Carter charges. He really didn't get it.

I know, from your perspective, it's cut and dried, but from others it's not, and that's the dynamic you fail to address more often than not. If you make those charges, for example, then fail to really engage others regarding them, it's not good form to just move on and assume your burden has been met, when it hasn't.

It's almost as if, by some twisted reasoning, that case would be on Amus! He failed, so you get to just continue on, having not been successfully challenged!

(and that's not the case)

Just once, I would absolutely love to see you go the distance on something. As CJ often puts it:

take it all the way out for me, spoon feed it, one bite at a time. I often say, sell me, meaning exactly the same thing! Others clamor for the same thing, each in their own way. A few just tune out for a while, and frankly, that harms us. Not cool.

I don't think you really understand the anger. It's not over one post, or even a few. It's over a considerable period of time.

FYI, something that builds in that fashion tends to stick around. It does not fade quickly, but will fade, given no further reason to grow. You keep it just below the level where people are really gonna go off, then play right there, over and over and over.

This means tolerance for you, is always consistently low! People have short triggers, in other words, and it's not because they are lefties, hate conservatives, America, you, or any other damn thing, either.

Of course, that plays nicely into your, "conservatives [insert some trite thing here]", "but liberals [insert some other petty thing here]" bit.

You still owe Amus the rest of that conversation you know. Take it all the way out. Do the work, bring your support to the table and let's look it over. If it's solid, you are gonna get the nod. This group has demonstrated that time and time again.

You really haven't, on a majority of the stuff you bring here for discussion, and again, that's where a whole lot of the anger and negative comments directed your way, come from.

Step up man. Grow a pair and go the distance on some of this stuff. No dodges. It can't be all that bad to take it all the way out. Many of us do it regularly and we still wake up each day, likely better off than we were before. This is just not something to fear, unless you fear understanding!

(and you might, for all I know)

I call foul for judging Mrs M for having no argument, given the above has yet to be addressed on your part.

I understand your position. However, read through my post. I sincerely congratulated someone for their hard work. Yet, because I didn't happen to agree with their specific position, all sorts of epithets are spewed.

It's a basic tenet that to further a discussion, one doesn't verbally assault the person. Go after the idea.

When I'm treated civilly, I generally respond in kind. Have I made comments that go after those with whom I disagree? Sure. But communist dictators aside, if you look closer, it's typically regarding an offending group, not individuals.

If someone gets personally abusive and offers nothing to further a point, there's really no point in responding.

Herb

"If someone offers nothing to further a point, there's really no point in responding".

Hmmmmmmmmm. Good words to remember.

Exactly.

That'll also help prevent ham-fists from flying.

Again: Go after the idea, but aside from black-hearted murderous dictators, if someone goes ad hominem, they must have little to back them up, otherwise they'd use it.

Herb

Herb I will give you this much credit. Never in my life have I found myself using phrases like "ad hominem" "ham-fisted" and those other Herbisms.

So thank you for upgrading my vocabulary....I think.

Yeah, they're kind of catchy, I'll grant you that. I'll also take your tongue-in-cheek, semi-back-handed compliment with a Herb-esque grin.

And while unabashedly liberal, at least MissingKSKD, Chris, Edselehr and the occasional ChickenJuggler make an effort. Not to dismiss ShyGuy, but he hasn't posted as many as the others.

By and large, conservatives here generally make a point usually without resorting to personal attacks. They happen, just not as frequently.

And if democrats want to debate the issues here and not simply Trash N' Bash, I'm happy to work with those who wish to elevate the discourse. However, I've noted that a handful of liberals here rarely, if ever, actually even attempt to make a cogent point. It's either calling people neo-cons or worse.

What's humourous is the left's insistence that they are the 'big tent' party, the 'party of the people,' or 'the party of the diverse.'

Nothing could be further from the truth. As evidenced here, if someone is not in lockstep with the liberal canon on key items like labour unions, so-called 'choice,' and anti-Iraq involvement, they get uncivil in a hurry.

You may have a majority on this particular board, but that's to be expected, as this site involves PORTLAND radio and politics. Ironically, whenever it suits their situation, it's also the left which is always postulating that might does not make right.

Liberals on this board can be very smug and self-congratulatory, and the question should be, why? You're consistently preaching to the same liberal choir. That's why it's so obvious when democrats fall back on name-calling without ever addressing the issue at hand. If you can't argue your way out of a paper bag HERE, with all your liberal pals weighing in to try and bail you out, no wonder your party hasn't been able to overcome a less than popular lame-duck president.

You may not like how conservatives present their case, but at least we show up and can string a few sentences together.

Spin on.

Herb

Herb we have to agree that we have seen life from different perspectives or at least have lived life up to this point that helps us formulate our opinions.

I don't always agree with those whom I share a political alliance with on this message board, but there are many posts you have added that play into stereotypical stances. It's those posts I find difficult in digesting.

We can only posses what we experience. Until we walk in someone else’s shoes we will never truly know why a person believes what they do? And when personal growth takes place along a humans journey walk and they make changes and choices based on that walk, we need to respect that walk as their own and not try and make that persons walk my walk. This is where I feel you make grave errors in you opinions about people who disagree with your views.

I agree some people just attack and I am guilty of doing it to you. Once I finally calm down emotionally I am able to see you as another human being along this journey who has had different experiences than mine.

I appreciate that you find some of my posts worthy of your respect. I find you intelligent, decent sense of humor and probably deep down a real softy.

This message board certainly leans left but not as far left as maybe some of the people we post about who are in the politically arena. To say the left is always this or the right is always this is simply inaccurate.

Catch phrases like “flip-flopper” are used to show someone’s indecisiveness and puts questions on their capabilities to make decisive decisions. If we are honest, if someone changes their mind once the truth is revealed or they take a different stance based on new information, then we are all guilty of being flip floppers.

It was not that long ago you were excited about having Alan Keys back on the GOP ticket, but now you’re a Huckabee fan? Flip flopper? (wink and a smile)

You want black and white answers to what you deem to be black and white issues. Man if life were that easy to figure out we wouldn’t be in some of the messes we are into today.

We all like preaching to choir from time to time. I think we all love to hear a good “Amen” of support from our own circle of influence from time to time. It’s ego gratifying.

You should at least be grateful that Dan Packard opened this side of his web site up and chose to allow all points of view (with the few exceptions we all know about) to express their views without recourse. Dan could have easily kept you and those whom share your value system out of the conversation.

Now spin that for me Batman.

"...It was not that long ago you were excited about having Alan Keys back on the GOP ticket, but now you’re a Huckabee fan? Flip flopper? (wink and a smile.."

100%, absolutely, totally, guilty as charged. It may sound funny to democrats here, but I really have been kind of torn between Mr. Keyes and Mr. Huckabee. I will also admit, as you perceptibly and tactfully pointed out, that were Mr. Keyes doing so well at the moment, I would indeed be pulling for his candidacy instead.

Herb 'flipper' Milhous

The current administration is a lot like a merry go round that keeps spinng faster and faster. The faster it spins the more people get flung off of it. Except for the head honcho in the center, you know the one that is dizzy beyond all reasoning. Once the ride stops he will look around for some help to keep him from falling on his face but everyone will have spun off leaving him to take the fall all by himself!

I wasn't trying to "nail" the flipper tag on you Herb, but you did go silent on Mr. Keyes. Do you think Huckabee is a little more balanced in his approach than Keyes? Is he more approachable than Keyes to the American public?

Huckabee is more likable, for sure, than Keyes ... and much more to the center.

I'll be honest...I've not been following any of the candidates closely. So far no one excites me on either side. But I appreciate that others are watching more closely, I simply have more important things going on.

Having been a governor, Mr. Huckabee has a tad more executive gravitas than former UN ambassador Mr. Keyes.

From what I've read, I believe Mr. Huckabee is also more even-tempered. I'm pleased that Mr. Keyes is an African-American republican nominee and firmly believe our first presidential ticket with a woman and minority will be republican.

Both Mr. Huckabee and Mr. Keyes would promote a pro-life platform, and that's my main deal, along with the other Herb issues of fighting terror and freeing Cubans from that dastardly blackhearted evil doer, Castro.

Herb

Alan Keyes is a bigot and possibly mentally ill. He's also a very hateful and mean spirited person. Mike Huckabee, although flawed in his beliefs, seems like a nice, genuine, human being. How someone could be considering both candidates I find interesting, because I see them as worlds apart.

"I've been interacting with a fair number of educators lately. I don't know any of them that say NCLB is a net good."

That's not surprising. NCLB is not something that was intended to benefit teachers. It was intended to benefit children.

That was not the intent of my post.

The amount of benefit they are able to deliver to the kids is lower overall, than it was prior to NCLB.

"NCLB is not something that was intended to benefit teachers. It was intended to benefit children."

And of course we know all teachers are motivated by selfish motives and not interested in the kids they teach.

What a sad world you live in.

What the hell was that for?! The NCLB initiative required testing at certain grade levels, and it may reflect poorly upon a teacher if his or her students fail the test. This is why I'm not surprised to hear teachers not support it. I'm not saying I blame them, I'm just saying it sounds natural for educators to oppose it. Wouldn't YOU be against the idea of another evaluation at work without additional reward?

If said evaluation improved the overall work scene, then I would not be against it. That's the opinion I hear most often, regarding NCLB, BTW. Another one happens to be that program harming poor schools in that the funds they likely need to improve are keyed to said improvement!

That kind of cycle is never good.

It does not serve to improve education enough to warrant all the changes and work involved with it.

BTW, not being for an evaluation at work, without additional reward (or compensation), IS SELFISH, just like the post above said it was.

My own personal bias happens to be that NCLB puts the pressure on teachers, while ignoring the problems we have with parents and families in general.

It's tough to get involved with both the school and your kids education when both parents are working, money is tight, etc...

My own experience is proving this out right now too. My wife has not had to work to keep things running, and generally has been able to be involved.

This last year and a half or so, that's not been an option, and what do you know? Kids are having more issues with education then they normally do. Go figure! We are now at the point where we can dig in again. I'll bet enough to matter that those problems get resolved and we've kids doing how they should be doing again.

NCLB carries with it the assumption that schools can handle this on their own, with enough pressure applied. That simply is not the case.

And that really is the foundation for most of the opposition opinion I've heard from educators.

"That's not surprising. NCLB is not something that was intended to benefit teachers. It was intended to benefit children."

You nailed it, Shane.

Those with a vested interest in the education lobby are not going to look kindly upon accountability measures. Why would they, especially if they're convinced they don't need to change? Education, like all other professions, needs to adapt to the realities of life.

Parents and taxpayers in general want more accountability from educators.

Herb

If a particular child fails to succeed in school, who should be held accountable - teachers certainly, but anyone else?

What action(s) should be taken with each of the people on the list from Question 1?

Shane,

I misinterpreted your intention.
For that I appologise.

I thought you were saying basically what Herb just said.

For equating you with him, I'm doubly sorry.

In Oregon NCLB was not necessary to begin with. Oregon already had high standards in place and NCLB handcuffed many teachers who were already making sure kids hit benchmarks.

You're going to have exceptions even in the best situations and Missing nailed it. It starts at home. However home for many children is the last place some of these kids get help.

I think NCLB was meant for good and I truly applaud Bush's desire to make it so every child gets a good education. But the legislation was flawed from the outset and teachers became tests givers and took away their ability to truly teach.

"If a particular child fails to succeed in school, who should be held accountable - teachers certainly, but anyone else?"

Parents don't get a pass, nor should they.

Herb

It was intended to benefit children.

Too bad it HASN'T worked.

"Parents don't get a pass, nor should they."

How much responsibility should they carry?

If you want higher accountability, then you must be prepared to pay for it.

No.

Accountability is not more expensive. It's not cheap, but actually far less expensive than the ineffective, inefficient unaccountable public system now in place.

I agree with Edselehr that parents need to step up to the plate and bring to school a child who is at the very least teachable and not a discipline problem. Ideally, the child should want to learn.

If I had my way, corporal punishment would be an option for teachers, aclu be darned. Teachers need to be helped, or a clear message needs to be sent that certain behaviours will simply not be tolerated.

Herb

"How much responsibility should they [parents] carry?"

I'm thinking at least half. ESPECIALLY before they are of school age. If you're not gonna give your toddler attention, at least PAY someone to do it. It will make all the difference in the world.

Oregon Schools have been so de-funded over the past 10 years it's really amazing to me that students still get a decent education.

Behavior problems show up in any learning institution. That hasn't changed. I was walking the halls of the high school where my daughter goes the other day and a teacher had stopped a young man and was doing some parenting and encouragement. The body language of the student said it all..."Yup this teachers right I got to get my act together."

I agree that certain behaviors need to be dealt with, and a clear message of what is appropriate encouraged. But at the same time you have to take each behavioral problem individually and NOT group them all together.

Digression:

Soap Box mode = 1

Herb sez: "If I had my way, corporal punishment would be an option for teachers"

I think we need a LOT stronger discipline options available to schools, but this is NOT one of them to be considered, period.

Corporal means and methods, if considered at all, should be left to parents. There is absolutely no good done from non-family members applying this technique to kids.

If the kid is in a place where people wish it were an option, there are core problems that need to be worked on. That's a higher level activity, if it's to do any good. Simple intimidation isn't gonna cut it. That's all corporal means are, in the context of non-family people attempting to apply them.

The one, and only time, I was supposed to be spanked in school, I was not scared at all. The idea that they actually believed a few swats would make "everything ok" and "correct bad behavior" was beyond rational and borderline insane! I ended up very angry and deeply offended they would even consider that path. I also was never once ashamed. Why?

Because one does not feel shame around those one has no respect for! See how nasty that is?

I never got hit, and it cost me in a lot of ways to accomplish that back then. I did not have the tools to tell anybody why, but did know it was beyond wrong. Back then I "felt bad" for a long time and it really hosed up a lot of stuff. Today I've the words and mental tools to articulate it. Then, it was just survival.

I didn't want to change who I was! (still don't!) I did need help figuring out how to do the right things and why. A spanking --actually submitting to that was just off the charts wrong, particularly if they "just did it, because they couldn't think of anything else", or said anything like, "you should be ashamed".

Damage was done during that exchange, and I do not mean physical damage either. It's the kind of damage that still to this day remains somewhat troublesome to work through. I'm there, but it's not pretty. Back then, I committed to not leaving that room --ever, rather than let some ass, who I had no respect for, do that to me.

Let's just say that's one power struggle the kid won that day and leave it there. The educator and I met years later. We both agree it should just stay there and that's something, coming from two otherwise healthy adults! We also both know far better these days too. It was wrong then, would be wrong now, will always be wrong, until something about our race changes significantly.

Herb, I absolutely hear you on not tolerating some behaviors! That is absolutely possible without physical discipline --or worse. Failure to grok this means being highly likely to do more harm than good.

I was one of those kids. Being scared was not even on the radar, when it came to some NON RELATIVE / NON FAMILY member attempting to employ such techniques. Anger, being offended, and most importantly, loss of any measure of respect are the most common result for strong willed people.

The loss of respect means a near complete inability for those people to ever reach that kid and do them some good. Has a major league impact on learning also.

For the weaker ones, they do correct as fear conquers will, but are broken in other ways. When that happens to young people, a part of them dies.

I watched it happen, saw people who needed help, changed for the worse. I swore that would not be me. (and it wasn't, but again, it was very costly --I'm not really sure which was worse actually!)

That's it really. It's completely possible to deal with non-compliance without corporal means and methods being employed by the school.

The key to this is very simple:

It has to be worth more to do the right things than the wrong ones.

Pain, does not significantly change this equation. All it really does is build fear and inhibition, and shame, depending on the kid.

So, to get at this, one has to understand that kids value system. What matters, what does not? From there, the key can be applied to reinforce the right behaviors. This takes work, but doesn't doing any thing right?

If, extreme means are necessary, and the family cannot employ them, we need more options. Just booting the kids, like we normally do now, does not cut it. Running them through the courts is not a great solution for many of them either, though I have seen that do some good.

Maybe boot camps? Better psychology? Labor?

I can think of a lot of things --have employed a lot of things to reach and impact kids. Where I saw success, I understood the value system in play. That really is the key.

Carry on, soap box mode = 0

I was that kid, too!

My fifth grade teacher was world famous for giving swats. His paddle had names on it and holes in it...a force to be reckoned with, in my young mind.

I retaliated at someone sitting behind me tugging my hair and poking me with a pencil when Mr. S wasn't looking...she didn't get caught, but I did, naturally, and the paddle came out. The open rebellion from me got me sent to the principal's office to wait for my Mom. No swats, though. Kids in my class talked about it for days, the legend grew, and the paddle left school, retired. It's been a topic at reunions, even, we all laugh about it now...

The biggie for me turned out to be disappointment from any teacher I respected. Those had the knack of getting the point across by letting me know in lots of unique ways that they knew I could do better, be better, and I had let them down. They made me feel that they believed I was great, and goofin' off. Big downer, and I would do 10 times the work to get back in good graces.

I don't know what to do about the kids that seem unreachable, and with the class sizes these days, I don't know how teachers can find the extra time to figure them out. How do you find the right key?

I submit that when it comes to boys of a certain age, a significant percentage respond to little else than the credible threat of corporal punishment. Just because it didn't work on some, doesn't mean the entire concept should be discarded.

For example, the problem with schoolyard bullies is often that they go unchallenged. That bully often turns into the street thug that society has had foisted upon it by a job the parents, and to a lesser degree, our schools didn't address. The problem with delinquent youth is too often the absence of a father, and an absence of firm, enforceable boundaries which by default, are to some degree a responsibility of our schools.

Herb

Then it can be done at home, or by a family member. There is zero place for that in the schools. Take that same kid, work him hard, Drill Sargent style for an entire weekend and see if he does not pay some attention after that experience. Hitting, particularly hitting older kids, does absolutely no good.

(this works, I've had to do it, and doing it sucks because you don't get any rest either, but it is extremely effective! they do listen after a day or so. They grok it after the weekend is over. They completely dread having to go through that again. The mere mention of having to spend a weekend improving their mind and body, will get them to reconsider whatever boundary they are thinking about crossing.)

Entre_nous: Yep. Ours and that paddle with holes retired too. We talk about it also. For god's sake, who drills holes in the paddle for that extra fear factor? Who respects those who would do that? Plenty of kids feared that, so that worked, but it comes with the consequences I detailed above. Not good.

Herb, you are spot on where boundary issues are concerned. That's probably the number one problem. Agreed on the source of the deficiency too.

Rather than fix the symptom (acting out in school, paddling), shouldn't we be working hard on fixing the core problem? (family, set expectations and boundaries?)

That's my primary reason for no hitting in the schools for discipline. It's fixing a symptom, and it's fear and shame based too. Neither of these things are good things, in this context.

In my experience, the older they are, the more likely other approaches are to work. The very young cannot be reasoned with. Sometimes a swat gets their attention. No big crime there.

Note also, it's done to get their attention. Should be followed by some discussion and reinforcement of how that swat came to pass.

An older kid, laughs at a swat. Not likely to get their attention in the same fashion, unless it's fairly brutal. On the other hand, a weekend of hard work, coupled with very long lectures, little sleep, missing their plans, not being able to use their cell phone, etc... all gets their attention rather quickly.

Another very effective attention getter is having their friends know exactly why they were missed at some activity. Again, older kids have more invested in this area. Lots to lose and worry over.

Think again about that value system. It is the key.

Entre_nous: How to find that key? The only way I know is to take the time to get to know that kid. Parents can tell you stuff, they will tell you stuff, watch their behavior, observe who their friends are, what they do and how it's valued.

Again, in my experience, there really is only a very small percentage of king pins causing the trouble. Focus on them, let the others see it happen, and suddenly they are not "cool" any more. With that goes the followers and that seriously impacts their value system. (they value the followers and status highly, in general)

I don't know that teachers have that time. Ours didn't. That's a big part of why we went to the school and attended class with our kid. (she was in classes where major issues were disrupting the learning)

It took a nice chunk of time to resolve. It did get resolved too.

I would gladly pay for people to do this, given they were empowered enough to actually do what we did. That time was valuable to us. Lots of parents don't have it (which is something we need to fix), but would benefit from others having it.

One other thing. If one addresses boundary / non-compliance, lying with hitting / spanking, then one starts a cycle of shame and fear that is highly likely to continue in their families when they grow up. This isn't good either.

Parenting is much more than these things. The core of it is trust and respect. If you have those things, there are NO issues that cannot be worked out. If you don't, and leverage fear and shame instead, you are highly likely to get fear based compliance (which is a lie), and not have longer term respect. (which means no ability to reach them at a value level)

Most of the boys I know who got swats got them regularly, and wore them like a badge of courage. They did not change and typically became even more aggressive to everyone else, thereby incurring more swats...a nasty cycle for all of us. Most of them got swats at home, too, so clearly their parents didn't figure them out, either.

It doesn't seem logical to try and stop a student from being a bully by being a bully...IMHO.

"Then it can be done at home, or by a family member....Rather than fix the symptom (acting out in school, paddling), shouldn't we be working hard on fixing the core problem? (family, set expectations and boundaries?)"

But that's why we're even having the discussion. It's not being done and often there is no father to enforce the boundaries. I defer to Edselehr on the most common situation, but I would suggest you often have an overwhelmed working Mom with more than one kid, at wit's end.

I'm not saying use it for older kids. I'm talking about 10 to 14 year old boys. If you remove the corporal punishment option and they continue being disruptive, and won't straighten up with counseling, then the remaining option appears to be suspension, at least until you get their attention.

Herb

We used to get a choice, 3 days or three swats. Once I chose the 3 days, I went back to school that very next day and aksed for the three swats instead. Lets just say this was indeed gonna be the lesser of the two punishments! Not to say that I did not also get punished at home as well but this one was less painful.

Yeah, those are the age I'm talking about too. And I'm telling you right now, that isn't gonna work at the school.

Having it work at home depends on a lot of stuff, and it's not always the best option. In my experience, it's rarely the best option.

Those kids causing all the trouble, were right where you indicated. Single moms (most of them), little home supervision, lots of at school bully status, etc... the whole deal.

We took them down, one by one, no hitting. Here's what we did:

-got to know that mother. Invited her over for a conversation between parents. We got to know one another and learned key things about that kid.

-empowered that mother. I was more than happy to get some of my yard work done! Seemed to be a good trade at the time. While that kid is working his ass off, we had some very frank discussions. Those had impact.

She also knew she was not alone either. This matters a whole lot!

-deal with the status issues at school. One came to school stoned. That was easy! We simply let the others know they were stoned, and that's why they were always the loser, not doing well, picking on others, etc...

Every kid in that classroom knew then all they had to do was go and report that bully stoned and it's over! (He didn't come stoned very many more times, once the others knew what to look for. My wife worked in drug and alchol recovery for 10 years. It's easy to impart the good tools from that, for others to use.)

-and that follows by empowering the other kids in a fashion similar to the mother.

Let them know they have lots of options. Also let them know what following bullies and losers gets you. (nothing good) Play off of self-respect and the desire to be good kids, and very soon, those bullies look like the losers they are.

That all goes right to status and that value system.

Hitting has a short impact and builds the need for revenge / release. Bad combo. Doing the things we did has a very long impact, and also builds revenge, but not toward the other kids. (this is why we got fricking death threats from middle schoolers!)

It reached a point where the decent kids would start checking the bad ones! We had the high ground and they all knew it.

Expensive stuff in terms of time, but it works. The problem is getting more people to actually do it, not escalating the problem with hitting.

I'm not advocating corporal punishment but will admit that it did teach me some valueable lessons in making better choices. 3 days suspension was not one of them! It can be very effective in some cases and grossly ineffective in others. It depends on the child, the problem, and the way it is administered.

A bully is really someone that is fearful. They have some kind of insecurity that is being played out because of some fear in their own life.

I posted a story not long ago where a 9th grade boy went to school wearing a pink shirt. Was teased by a few bullies. The next day other students wore lots of pink in support of this student. Put the bullies in their place with creative thinking.

If you let the peers of these 10-14 year old boys be the judges, peers tend to come down harder on punishment. Let the kids be part of the solution with bullies.

Corporal punishment is more psychology than it is pain.

The paddle sends a direct message that someone cares about what you did.

Simple suspension just sends the message that "we don't care what you do, just go away."

And folks, don't blame all the problems in single moms. Bullies have been around forever and they still come from two-parent families.

Totally agreed on the single moms not being all of the problem. (there are a lot of them though --at least that's been my experience)

Suspension, without anything else attached, is exactly that. In my house, suspension means a lot of really hard work, coupled with some very frank discussion while said work is happening.

Agreed on the psychology element. I also think it's lazy psychology too. Lots of ways to get in their head. Spanking is only one of many.

Chris, I love that story. Social norms working at their finest! Very powerful stuff.

Yes, the anticipation of the punishment is always worse than the punishment itself. How many of you heard this from your mom: "You just wait till your dad gets home"! Those were some of the longest periods of time I can recall. It was also a time to suck up to mom and try to disuede her from telling dad. It was also a buffer when one parent was angry that they not administer punishment while angry at the child. Punishing a child while angry at that child is never a good idea under any circumstance. Just like in school, it was never the teacher administering the swats, it was usually the Vice Principal.

Yeah, that buffer is a healthy thing! Punishment in anger is almost always wrong.

BTW: That, "just wait until dad gets home" bit works, spanking or not! The Drill Sergent thing works just as well as a spanking does. Takes longer though.

The worst part of the whole thing was hearing " thp thp thp thp thp thp" as the belt was pulled through the loops.

I remember that!

Anyone ever have to go and select their own spanking stick? Of all the things, I absolutely hated that most of all!

My Great Grandma did that. She had a tree in the front yard and I had to fetch the switch for her. What was worse was getting sent back out to get a different one because the one I chose first was not just the right size and length. Had to be fairly skinny, long, and have just the right flex in it.

When I was in school, the teacher did the swats, and they sent a note home, and I got it again from Dad.

The thing about punishment, it has to be swift and effective. If you know for sure when you do something wrong, and your caught your going to get a serious punishment, you will think twice.

The paddle or belt should never be applied in anger.

First, calmly explain why the punishment is being used and forget that old "this hurts me more than it hurts you."

So when kids are out of control what do you do???

"The thing about punishment, it has to be swift and effective. If you know for sure when you do something wrong, and your caught your going to get a serious punishment, you will think twice."

Only if it's not worth it! eg: Let's say a kid really wants to go to that party. They will weigh whatever punishment against the value of the party. A spanking is quick, might hurt, etc... Truth is, that may be worth the party! If it is, then no amount of spanking will serve to impact that behavior, and other means must be employed.

Failure to recognize this means simple escalation of the problem, which often leads to abuse. Ugly.

This all varies by kid, and is the primary reason why I consider corporal punishment to be lazy psychology. Really what is happening is this kind of punishment ends up not being worth it to a lot of kids, so it works a lot of the time.

However, it works via fear and intimidation. Fear based thought and norms do kids a lot of harm, in that the deeper self-serving issues do not get addressed.

Instead of having a healthy kid, you end up with a scared one, full of inhibitions that really are not based on understanding of the world and how it works. These kids end up being actors, instead of who they really are!

Most of this stuff then gets sorted out in their 20's, when it does not have to be!

Instead of scaring a person into good behavior, why not get them to buy into it? If they understand why something is not a good idea, then they will not do it, because it's not worth doing, will impact them as a person, etc...

Again, this is where working a kids value system comes into play. Punishment is not a means to an end. It only gets their attention. The real correction comes from improving their understanding of the world and what impact their actions will have on it and them!

@Trixter: You do what it takes to get control. Sometimes this means physically holding them and dealing with them until they get it out. Once that has happened, then progress can be made. Get people to help with this, if necessary.

One key is to let them know there is absolutely nothing they can do to get you to lose control. Another one is to avoid power struggles. The adult almost always loses big. That means their end game is known. They lose if they lose control --always. It is extremely important for them to know this. If one parent loses it, go get the other one involved. No playing one off the other either. Kids will try to split the parents and leverage that to avoid facing tough issues.

That means both parents support one another absolutely --even if a mistake is made, support must be absolute. There is time after the fact to go back and clean up the mistake with them, and between yourselves as parents.

Having these things in place means they absolutely know you, as the parent, will go the distance and have the resources to do so. That means involving friends and family too. It is very important they have people to talk to, but also very important those people are well aligned with you, the parents.

Make no mistake, I've done my spanking. Only when they are young though, and only when I had no alternative available to me.

As soon as they begin to really value stuff, I leverage that instead. Young kids don't have this well developed enough for it to make sense, and sometimes it takes that to get their attention.

This varies widely by kid too, making it harder to just make a rule. I suspect this is why the State of Oregon holds the position it does. Fear of abuse is another big reason for it, and the primary one for me personally opposing it in the schools.

BTW: The State of Oregon takes it's foster parents (adoptive or not) through a series of courses related to parenting. The State position on this is no corporal punishment is ok, period.

Most of what I have written here is a result of those training sessions, long conversations with child psychology professionals, therapists and counselors. Our kids had a TON of NASTY ISSUES. We've nailed all but a coupla minor ones, and spanking really only played a small part, at times. The really tough stuff was handled with conversations and creative punishments, aimed directly at their value system.

The biggest issue is people not knowing what their alternatives are! Spanking ends up being this catch all kind of thing, because of that. That was the first thing these people told me, and it proved to be spot on.

I think corporal punishment has one very good affect, it teaches you to learn how to not get caught! Which was very good training to have, when I was in the military.

I learned at a very young age, to think about something, and plan my actions well.

Herb, you must live in some sort of vacuum. What industry in the world would not demand more compensation when more accountablility is required (which means more hours)? The problem with people like you is that you want more for less, and that's just not the way the world works. Teachers are underpaid as it is. Asking them to add more hours to their workload without paying them for it is complete bullshit. It wouldn't work in my industry, and it doesn't work for teachers. With the importance of educating our children, it is beyond me why folks like yourself are more than willing to spend $3 billion per week in Iraq, yet arnen't willing to properly compensate teachers teaching our own children. Very sad.

As for corporal punishment, the only person physically punishing a child should be their parent or guardian.

Asking them to add more hours to their workload without paying them for it is complete *******.

Please show me where I said teachers need to add more hours to their workload. Quite the contrary. As they become more efficient, they'll do the work without extra time.

Herb

NCLB requires more accountability. More accountability = more hours. And as far as being efficient, yes, teachers are more efficient these days, but that efficiency has been eroded by increases in class size.

I think you should spend a week volunteering at your local school and walk a day in a teacher's shoes. Even better, go home with them and see how many hours are spent out of the classroom on grading and planning. If you have 5 classes with 30 students each, that's a 180 students. If it took you 5 minutes to grade each student's test, that's 15 hours worth of grading. You are simply out of touch my friend.

"More accountability = more hours."

Not if they cut out the fluff. Nix advanced basket weaving and replace it with the three R's.

Herb

Basket Weaving, aka art, music, and PE as we knew them are pretty much long gone, HerrB.

Obviously you haven't been paying attention.

Art, languages and music are fine, as is PE. But let's not sacrifice the basics, either.

Herb

What fluff should be cut? Be specific.

(cricket sounds)

Not that these have no value. BUT if they crowd out the essentials, that's a problem.

There are likely plenty more

cheerleading
ethnic studies
gender studies

Herb

Hey, I bet those cricket sound's don't last long around your place! Eh Gecko lady! Gadzook's, you need a new avatar!

So how about it, democrats. Are there ANY classes you deem less than worthy?

Cue the crickets.

Herb

Hey EXTREME RIGHTIES can YOU think of anything that doesn't involve ETHICS or GENDER?

Uh, that was ethnic, not ethic.

Herb

K..
MY BAD!
ETHNIC STUDIES...
Bigot??
Maybe??
Why can't we let SOME kids learn about themselves???

Okay, Trixter.
All classes are fine and dandy, since you've provided zero input on where to cut the fluff, unlike me, who at least provided data.

This is precisely what I'm talking about.

I'm asked for details.
I provide them.
The left here doesn't provide any.
And I'm the bad guy.

Hyper-partisan is right.

Herb

Thanks.
Your attitude is what will get Hillary in the White House.

I don't think we need any class cuts, period.

There's your data Herb.

Next.

I believe cheerleeding is an extra-curricular sport, not a class. Do you have any proof that the other 2 are offered as actual Oregon high school classes?

I haven't provided any myself, because I haven't had time to see what Portland High Schools actually offer. My 3 friends who are teachers aren't home from work yet, right Edsel?

cheerleading
ethnic studies
gender studies

Wow, what a great non-sequitor list. I doubt any of those are in the standard curriculum of public schools, but all three can be found at a university. I'm with Merkin, cheerleading is an activity -- not a class. I believe I can find the thread that ties it into reality.

Translation:

I love the hot cheerleaders from eastern and southern colleges. They have really gorgeous Black women. When they hop, I can see their panties.

Translation, con't:

"...But I'm outraged by the cheerleaders from Berkeley and Wellesley. They're all radical non-white or Jewish lesbians majoring in ethnic and gender studies and they don't shave! And they're probably all on affirmative action scholarships!

Whilst those poor BYU cheerleaders, Romney could fill up at least one of those famous Mormon cave vaults with the reams of jokes regarding them. They're not all that homely and you can't miss those hot "panties"! They go to the elbows and knees! And the basket-weaving pays off in either the Home Ec department or on their mission, since they're all there only to get their Mrs. degrees.

Yet none of them hold a candle to Eve and her new car!

Carry on.

LMFAO!

Reminds me of an old chestnut about Olympia:

How can you tell if a girl goes to Evergreen?

She wears barrettes in her pits.

At last, we have returned to topic. This discussion started with the phrase: "One Thing Bush Does Really Well...."

Fawn Liebowitz is rolling in her grave right now, laughing!

"...I haven't provided any myself..."

Of course you haven't. Once more, no data.

Once in a while, radicals ought to try holding themselves to the same standard they demand from others with whom they disagree.

It isn't an open-book test, either. Show your work.

Herb

Only if you show me yours first!

OMG....Now kids,

Of course you haven't. Once more, no data.

Sounds a lot like YOURSELF Herb.

"It isn't an open-book test, either. Show your work."

Actually you've got some showing of your own work that is long over due.

You never have supported your claim that Jimmy Carter is an Anti-Semite and that he is "bashing the US all day long"

Reference:

../2186/302256.html"#f7f7f7" align=left> Author: Herb
Tuesday, December 04, 2007 - 9:39 am

Classic.

Just because you don't like my answer doesn't make it any less credible.

Ask the more than dozen people who know Mr. Carter better than you or me. They quit due to what they deemed his unacceptable views regarding Jews.

Nice try.

Spin on.

Sorry..

You provided only Opinion and malicious interpretation.
And you never even touched the "bashing the US" accusation.

I have two kids in Portland Public Schools. I have been a card carrying PTA member for years. I have put in the time in the classroom when our kids were in their early grade school days.

Lots of nose wiping in pre-k through 3rd grade.

With a few exceptions, the teachers, principles and administrators have been superb.

Not that long ago PPS teachers were willing to take a 20 percent pay cut in order to keep a full school year. Because funding has been voter approved recently PPS is beginning to look into innovative and creative ways to improve schools both with new buildings and curriculum.

My brother and sister in law are both teachers. They taught overseas for 11 years. Teachers that go overseas from America are seen as "gods." They are paid well and given every possible tool, in most cases.

Coming home was a difficult decision for my brother’s family because as teachers they knew that it would be a struggle financially for them, and they would have to go above and beyond to be able to teach.

My brother is a very creative teacher. He will teach what the kids need to know in order to make benchmarks. And it's not always the curriculum offered because some it is way out of date or is simply wrong.

You add NCLB and I agree with Vitalogy, it does add more hours to an already crowded workday.

I also agree that if you complain about the system Herb be apart of the solution. Join a local PTA and find out what's really going on in schools. Get yourself educated on what is being offered and talk to educators.

Dumb question and somewhat off topic, Chris, but I thought you had a Southern Oregon radio show. Do you and/or Barb do the show over the internet?

Herb

Barb and I live in Portland and voice track our morning show in Coos Bay.

Herb...
Swings....
MISSES!
3 strikes and your.........
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOUUUT!

Amus..
You'll NEVER get a STRAIGHT answer out of Herb. He'll bash and trash you but NEVER answer the big questions....

Sing it with me everyone!!!!!

And the wheels on the bus go round and round
round and round
round and round
And the wheels on the bus go round and round
round and round
round and round

Trixter. I have yet to hear you respond to any question, except those posed by liberals.

Herb

I respond to your questions all the time. And YOUR EXTREME!

Now, now boys, is Vice Principal Radioblogman going have to take the paddle to Herb and Trixter.

It wouldn't be the first time I was paddled by the Vice Principal.

You are a man of many talents, Radioblogman.

Herb

Radioblogman.
The Principal of Vice.

Vice is nice, and I say that twice.
But I won't daddle with a paddle
At any price.

You'd could sell ticket's for that one!

I'm ready... As long as it's going to hurt I'm there....

OK, Trixter, why do we Democrats enjoy pain so much?

Is it because we have gotten use to it since the Supreme Court first elected Shrub?

Don't know Blogman... I'm NOT a Dem.

Then you must be one of the few fair Republicans.

TRUE Republican I am....