I've seen MP3 players that have FM-only tuners built in. I was under the impression that the FCC required all tuners to have both FM and AM. Was I misinformed, or did this change? Of course, the person who told me this was a radio "mentor" of mine who had a huge hard-on for AM.

I think such a requirement was talked about many years ago, similar to the "all-channel" requirement for TVs enacted in the early 60s, but it never came about for radios.

...and was the other way around!

This might be one IBOC upside. Ibiquity does require both AM and FM right?

When, and if, we get the smaller, low power chipsets, AM is likely to appear on a player then. (I would probably buy one too, if it comes to pass.)

the only way i think a hd iboc receiverrequirement ould happen would be to "help HD2 "stationsif they started failing and if there were good demand for the programming presuming its not available eldewhere.but,but,but, noise free digitalam is not enough of a factor at this point.IMO

I think the FCC should require computer makers to produce keyboards where the space bar doesn't stick. That would help 62kgw's posts to look better.

how about a requiement that CD players also play 45's and 33 1/3 LP's. also require dvd machines play vhs tapes.What's this got to do with pdx radio, i don't know???require laptop computers include software and operating sysytem other than microsft.!!!!!!

I think that the answer is no, either way. AM only radios were available well into the 1980s. (Does anyone else remember Radio Shack's Flavoradios?) FM only radios have appeared sporadically, with common examples today being tuners in MP3 players and inexpensive auto-seek tuners in dollar-store radios and novelty-type radios.

A few months ago, I saw a press release from Silicon Labs announcing that they would soon release a tuner chip incorporating both AM and FM; this chip is intended for portable devices, such as MP3 players.

**If you don't want to hear any more technical "gobbledy-gook", please ignore the rest of this message.**

The new Silicon Labs chip has an on-board varactor diode to resonate the AM ferrite rod antenna. The design is such that the chip can auto-adjust for a wide variety of antenna inductances. The lack of this AM front end auto-tuning feature in previous generations of tuner chips might have been a big part of why MP3 players with radios have been FM only up to now. The design trend for these types of consumer items seems to be that if implementing a feature necessitates any kind of manual adjustment at the factory or a "high number" of discrete components, then that feature is not going to be implemented. Today, there are even companies that build complete TV tuners on a chip (MicroTune and others).

62kgw,
A discussion about radio tuners is certainly relevant on this board. Lighten up, and if you don't like this topic about tuners, you can "tune out".

HD radios should be absolutlyrequired to do c-quam AM stereo!!!

many HD Radio receivers can also receive C-QUAM but some do better than others. The Accurian does a good job but still has a narrow bandwidth as specified by Ibiquity as does the Sangean but for some strange reason it does not seem to perform as well.

Does Tandy even still make Accurians that are programmed to receive Cquam? I had read some time ago Motorola basically forced them to stop; if I remember right, citing copyright/licensing troubles or probably something to that effect. Have they started again?

(If they have, this might just prompt me to buy an Accurian myself just for the crude Cquam capability, if nothing else.....it would be kind of nice to listen to analogue AM stereo when I am not in the truck!)

62, I agree. Really, I could see nothing more disappointing about the technology than to get a brand-new radio, turn it on and discover the nice, wideband AM that supposedly is broadcasting in stereo only comes in as tinny, narrowband mono. The first time I heard "Sunny 1520" in Stereo (original factory radio pulled from a 1987 Eagle Premiere mounted in a chassis with a pair of Harmon-Kardon stereo speakers and its own 12VDC power supply, at my friend's house circa 2001) was probably one of the more startling radio listening experiences I remember.

Radios today can literally be reduced in size to the point where entire systems are supported on chips.....I bet it probably couldn't be too much trouble to implement some kind of Cquam decoder in software in one of those units. Probably the only real roadblock to this that I can think of is the problem of licensing and patents.........

I mean, If people are going to insist on perjoratively marketing the Ibiquity system as somehow being "high definition" then the very least they can do for maybe ¢.50 more to the end consumer is throw in an AM stereo decoder; at least the consumer could actually hear truly "high-definition" analogue AM, assuming one is broadcasting in his area of course!

The really nice thing about that is the broadcasters having the choice!

Not all stations are gonna go IBOC easily, nor will clusters of them all get along easily. Cquam will be there for those cases, and as a differentiator. Talk, AM Stereo sounds just excellent, for example. I prefer it to any other modulation technology.

Having that capability in HD Radios is not some bizzare failure indicator for AM IBOC. It is actually just making the most capable radio there is.

Have that DSP massage analog broadcasts, and it's really a radio that just sounds better than other radios, thus, the moniker "HD Radio" kind of makes more sense than it would otherwise.

The Hyundai Sonata has a DSP in it's analog FM audio chain. It's nothing short of excellent, even in fringe areas. I didn't think that level of processing was possible. IMHO, these kinds of things should be a part of the HD Radio experience, at least until when / if all digital broadcasts begin sometime...

Somebody should be able to make a deal with Moto. It's not like they've got buyers lined up these days.

That somebody really should be Ibiquity. From there, licensees of the tech, simply get to build better radios. Much cleaner than the skunk works type stuff we are seeing now.

OK, this isn't any further off topic than the rest so here goes: When all the big AM stations are gone ie, when the large companies can no longer make a profit from them and they are bought up by mom and pops selling only direct advertising ala the old KKEY, what will become of the AM band in general? Will the NAB continue to support it? Will the FCC allow interference levels to reach new highs? Will even direct advertisers lose interest? Will there be any listeners at all?

IMHO, it's about content.

If there is compelling content, with daily relevance, on the band, people will listen. Am is not a bad listening experience, most of the time in the car. I drive a lot and really only have issues maybe 5 percent of the total listening time.

That's still quite a bit of solid time!

My issue with AM really is the industry creating it's own reality? "Am is dead because we think it's dead!" Or is AM really dying because people no longer tune the dial?

It's both, I'm sure. I just can't escape the notion that the former is being overblown, faulting technology for what really may well be a content problem.

> Somebody should be able to make a deal with Moto. > It's not like they've got buyers lined up these days.

From looking at Motorola's heavily marketing-spun webpage, I don't see any indication that they are even in the broadcast equipment business today. The division that made the C-QUAM decoder ICs was spun off to ON Semiconductor circa 2000, and ON Semi. discontinued those parts shortly thereafter. For the record, I never received any nasty-grams from Motorola about the "open-source" C-QUAM transmitter schematic that I put up on the Intenet many years ago.

I think that the real question behind the "AM is dead" issue is, "how much is this technology worth to you?" The major broadcast groups could declare it dead when they deem that:

1) The value of the land that its AM transmitter sites sit on is too high to continue using it for that purpose
2) Engineers who know how to maintain AM sites become too scarce
3) Promoting AM stations becomes too hard

Because these major conglomerates, especially Clear Channel, have so much clout, they *will* create their own reality when they decide that "AM is dead." It will be a lot like the situation in some Western European countries, where the major player (a public broadcaster, in those cases) decided that they wanted to get out of AM*.

* I have never been to Europe, but I have read and heard accounts that in Finland, Austria, and possibly Holland, all AM broadcasting stopped years ago and that in Germany there are still AM stations carrying BBC World Service and niche programs, but hardly anyone listens.

Alfredo, That scenario is happening in Canada right now. AM's are moving thier programming to FM and shutting of the AM transmitters. They are however keeping the allottments.

> Alfredo, That scenario is happening in Canada right now.

Yep; that has been going on there for a long time. I think that it was around 2000 that the CBC started to shut down its AMs, in some cases replacing the big AM signals with several low(er) powered FM signals. The first Canadian AM that I remember flipping was Ottawa's "54 Rock." I used to listen to that station back in the late 1980s when I lived in Pennsylvania. In 1993, I was living in Rochester, NY, and I heard the announcements on 540 about the move to FM. Then one night, either in late 1993 or early 1994, the Ottawa 540 was no more.

If we had fewer radio stations in this country, I think that the AM to FM migration might have happened here.

There IS compelling content and daily relevance but people still aren't listening. The point is that the bottom age of most AM listeners keeps going up. It used to be that people would discover News/Talk somewhere between 35 and 45 and stay with it. I believe the figure is now well over 45 and if it hits very close to 55, it's all over because there won't be any agency buys. When this happens, the big companies will bail out and we'll be left with mom and pops trying to sell direct accounts across the entire AM dial! Tell me if I'm wrong.

Agreed. Talk is pretty good. News? I don't know as I've never been news radio consumer. Honestly, I think there are better venues for straight up news. Commentary is where it's at for AM.

I've met plenty of younger talk consumers! Not sure that part is accurate. Could just be my circle I travel in too. Actually, that's highly likely, so agreed there.

If half the AM's go away, things can change! Maybe that's not a bad thing in the longer term. Fewer AM's, of better quality might be a whole lot more viable than what we have now.

I still believe AM can be leveraged in the following ways:

-simulcast the HD2's!

Doing that alone would give people a reason to tune the band. They might just find something of interest. If this one thing is coupled with some other ideas, sampling will be at it's highest potential.

-edgy talk. I think talk has a LOT of life left. Lots to explore. AAR has opened up proggy talk. Some of those voices brought new listeners, not already consuming talk, to the band. That's both sides of the politics, giving stations something to differentiate with. IMHO, that's good for AM generally.

And what about technology / society / law talk? We are literally living in a historic time where Internet, computers, media, control, privacy, etc... are being introduced, redefined, legislated. There are a LOT of ramifications to this stuff. IMHO, enough to talk about, given some creative framing.

-try building some KBBT type stations. If they see success, promote them, simulcast them as / with HD2's. Maybe just try it on the HD2, with the AM sample-casting!

-put younger people on the dial. If the band is gonna die, (and it might!) it seems foolish to allow that to happen without an attempt of this kind.

(that goes for the HD2's as well)

-couple the mom 'n pops with Google and perhaps form a distributed network. Seems to me, a mom 'n pop station could use another inlet for buys right? In this networked environment of today, I don't see why this won't be possible.

Viable? Another matter. Who knows?

The majors could also work on new programming. This has gotta be done for the HD2's anyway, so why not extend the effort to AM? Programs can be produced today, for very little dollars.

Right now, those end up on the Internet, streamed, downloaded, whatever. The better programs really should end up on air.

For existing listeners, subscription programming is a good thing, and is happening today. IMHO, this can continue and should. More of it needs to happen, and I think that's only possible if somebody bothers to start sifting through the programs being produced today, picks some, then gets them on air to greater audiences.

AM / HD2 is the perfect place for this. The AM side might see numbers. If so, they might step up for either an HD radio for better quality, or perhaps earlier access. (AM delayed maybe) Or, they might consider subscribing to that program and perhaps others.

One other hurdle is the old and mouldy perception surrounding AM. KBBT was interesting in that it hit younger listeners --and they listened!

So, part of doing these things (or other likely smarter / better things), has got to be some re-education about the band. Set new expectations and then manage them.

To date, the industry has not always been good at this. Right now, the HD radio stuff is starting to be managed well. (still need those younger voices though) Extend that, use AM as a test ground, make the dial kind of wild and edgy.

Those types will listen, because it can be part of the experience. Think rebel, not retro.

That is a good point and the AM band does need listeners but there is one other thing I would like to address and it is a big one, receivers. Most AM receivers are narrow band and thus the sound quality suffers greatly because of this fact with a good wide band AM receiver FM mono or FM stereo quality sound is possible and a good median between sound quality and selectivity is about a 7 KHz bandwidth but I have seen receivers with a 10 and even 15 KHz bandwidth and they sound good. Not too long ago Radio Shack made a tuned RF receiver that had both a narrow band filter which I think was about 5 KHz and a wide band filter which was close to 10 KHz this receiver sounded good and was quite sensitive it even had external antenna jacks for longwire antennas and also larger loops if needed. Also since it looks like IBOC will not become the standard for AM and FM anytime soon wideband AM stereo receivers should also be available that would cause the engineers and owners of AM stations to think about going stereo as more listeners would be able to receive the stereo signals and be able to see the full potential of the AM broadcast band. More AM stations going analog stereo might not happen but even then with IBOC decent quality stereo sound can be provided but the problem is the reliability of the digital signals, frequent drop outs will occur even well within the analog fringe area because of the reduced ERP of the digital signals one possible solution, increase the power of the digital signals but that might add to the interference to analog stations so this is a "lesser of two evils" type of thing cause more interference to analog stations and improve the digital coverage of IBOC stations or, stay at the reduced power and not cause as much interference.

Problem: If it's successful, it ends up on FM. See recent Spanish Inquisition! No one expected that.

That is an absolutely wonderful problem to have!

If that actually happened, then it would mean:

-content efforts are successful

(so continue those, vetting them on the HD2's and AM to continue that on the edge feel, instead of the retro old feel)

-new expectations have been set for AM

(continue to manage those over time)

-solid ideas to improve AM become viable again.

I don't think any of the bandwidth / quality issues are significant at this time. People listen now to muddy web streams, and they listen to AM now. They will listen in the near future too.

If we get new people tuning, then it's an issue again. Right now, it's work with what is out there, make it a content play period. Going stereo or IBOC really is secondary and people can always go and get subscription streams, free streams or HD-radios.

I still think it's an excellent idea for some major radio company to go ahead and get their own podcast client out there. Couple it with PVR type, record your stuff and listen later functionality and begin to set the expectation that there are PROGRAMS on the radio, not just music or talk.

Setting the expectation for programs has a lot of really great implications where re-purposing content, getting people to tune for specific reasons, new content, etc... are concerned.

On iTunes, I can subscribe to a show and get it every time it is broadcast. This is usually a delay, but maybe paying for it means no or far less of a delay.

Maybe somebody can work with Apple? Leverage that and begin to get new stuff aired. Again, there is lots of interesting programs out there. Some of them have just gotta be viable, and those producing them would be highly likely to entertain such a venture.

(what exactly have they got to lose?)