There's no need to use fetal stem cells.
By prodding scientists to re-think their strategy, this is a win-win.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/features/lifestyle/health/chi-stemcell_21nov21,1,1 808941.story

Herb

We are going to see many medical advancements over the next 20-30 years.

I never was one who was too excited about fetal stem cell research and always felt science would find another way. But this is good news.

I agree. It's a win-win. I cannot fully agree that this happened because Bush's prodding made them go do more science - I mean, to imply that his resistance to endorsing stem-cell research casued this announcement of skin cells. But the win-win IS there because we can now agree on something and try and move forward on it.

The side-effect of it causing cancer on just about every subject is a tad concerning. But there looks to be ways to correct that.

It put's as ALL to the test though; A real solution has been offered and provided. One that offers compromise from each side. Each side said they would. Scientists have held up their end of the bargain. But I swear to God, if I start to hear from the other side that they still have a problem now because it's " playing God " or " STEM-cell research was never the problem. It was cell research at all that bothered us!" or anything that smacks of that, there will be blood.

Literally.

Forgive me for being skeptical, but I've seen this before. Someone on the right throws a fit about something ( global warming comes to mind ) and while science chips away at their argument, the right shifts the argument. Always maintaining an unattainable carrot all because they have a fundamental disagreement with the idea as a whole. But they can't come out and say that because they know there is all this proof against it.

But it's faith. So they just stand on it. No matter how misguided or flat out incorrect they are.

So here's to being cautiously optimistic!

Please, those on the right who are loading their guns to shoot this science down on moral grounds, please, I beg you - don't.

Juggler unfortunetely I can see it now similar to the Terry Shiavo situation.

My question to everyone regardless of faith and or beleifs is "Who doesn't and who wouldn't play god if given the oppurtunity?"

Even a broken clock is right twice a day.

THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH DUHbya!

Earth to Trixter: Democrats have constantly harped against Mr. Bush, who championed alternatives to using fetal stem cells.

http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2007/01/12/1825558.htm

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,312379,00.html

I said Mr. Bush was right and now it's proven. Mr. Bush has been fighting the use of fetal stem cells to the chagrin of liberals like yourself who continuously said he was wrong.

Mr. Bush wasn't even my first choice for president. You're free to blab on about your distaste for our president, whilst cling to your position, Trixter. As you would say, keep it up. You'll only be shown to be even more glaringly and pathetically wrong.

This is my favorite comment of all on this:

"...if you dig into the papers a little farther today you see scientists have now figured out how to make embryonic stem cells from adult skin cells. So you don't have to make test-tube babies to harvest stem cells. Wasn't that a talking point against George Bush? What do they say now?"

Herb

Embyronic stem cell research will still have to happen. As the article states, that's the gold standard. Not to mention, the research was going on not for the sake of pleasing the so-called moralists, but for the sake of ease and cost.

You were wrong with this recent outcome. Your predictions regarding the left's ability to pursue their penchant of destroying preborn life is likely to be wrong, as well.

Herb

The preborn life you speak of gets destroyed anyway, so get off your high horse.

And how ironic that Bush goes to such feats as to championing the protection a clump of cells destined for the trash heap, yet veto's health care for uninsured children already here on earth, and needlessly sends our troops to their deaths for a war of his choice.

You can't make this stuff up!

I don't think any war would be of his choosing just the stubborness not to end it when it needs to be over with.

You guys know it all, even when you're wrong.
Even I show a little humility from time to time.

Herb

"Even I show a little humility from time to time."

I sense a snowball in hell.

So Herb, you are giving Bush full credit on this new announcement? You really believe that this would not have happened had he not stuck to his guns?

Full credit? I don't even know what that would look like in this instance and that's not what I said.

However, it would not have been a front-burner issue had Mr. Bush not staked out a firm position, which caused him to be pilloried by arrogant democrats so eager to end the life of the pre-born, and the press in general.

I'm merely pointing out that Mr. Bush stood firm on this one and his pro-life position is being vindicated by science. Again, Mr. Bush wasn't my first choice. But for goodness sake, give some credit where it's due. You guys look like the inflexible ones.

Herb

True pro-lifers are not warmongers. Bush gets zero credit. Science could give a hoot about Bush and his "positions".

Uh, yeah.

So how much credit does Bush deserve? In your estimation, Herb.

Herb said>>>
You were wrong with this recent outcome. Your predictions regarding the left's ability to pursue their penchant of destroying preborn life is likely to be wrong, as well.

Nixon was a pussy!

"So how much credit does Bush deserve? In your estimation, Herb."

About as much as a rock star or celebrity who focuses attention on a humanitarian, or more commonly these days, environmental cause.

Herb

"Nixon was a *#)(*#!"

Trixter, Mr. Nixon made plenty of big mistakes. That said, he was probably twice the man you, and most definitely I, will ever be. And that's the truth.

Humble Herb

" About as much as a rock star or celebrity who focuses attention on a humanitarian, or more commonly these days, environmental cause."

That's actually very well put.

So none.

Not true.

If you're going to give Mr. Gore credit for highlighting global warming, at least give Mr. Bush credit for something even closer and certainly less removed from the very issue of life and death.

Anything less is intellectually dishonest.

Herbert Milhous

OK then.

Very little.

It's one thing to claim you caused a scientific breakthrough.

It's a very different thing to say you called attention to an existing PROBLEM and gave support to that. Money. Donations. Volunteerism. Etc.

There is no way you can really believe that Bush's obstruction of stem-cell research spurred anything but an alternative that is less than the one previously offered. Scientifically.

Protect the unborn but yet send our sons and daughters to sand dune city to die for the all-mighty crude. Makes perfect sense. Gotta keep them soldier factories running and pumping out more troops.

The discovery would have happened no matter who was in the White House.

"...less than the one previously offered. Scientifically..."

Only time will tell. Yet had it not been for opposition to using fetal stem cells, we'd likely not have know about this wonderful opportunity, which appears to be in some significant ways better. And don't you now feel a few steps more removed from nazi doctors who over time continued to move the ethical line until serious moral lapses occured?

Those who believe human life is precious are very happy.

Herb

Precious only if your not yet born!

I Repeat:

Protect the unborn but yet send our sons and daughters to sand dune city to die for the all-mighty crude. Makes perfect sense. Gotta keep them soldier factories running and pumping out more troops.

We must remember that this research occurs on embryos that are destined to go to the trash heep. It is not life and should not be viewed as life.

"Yet had it not been for opposition to using fetal stem cells, we'd likely not have know about this wonderful opportunity."

Wrong. Science seeks continued betterment, and this discovery would have been made regardless. One of the positive byproducts appears to be that it can be done in a way that pleases the anti-science crowd yet moves us all forward. Personally I don't have an iota of issue with embryonic stem cell research. With Parkinson's disease on one side, Alzheimer's and dementia on the other, I'm darn hoping this research will lead to cures of what could affect me down the road. I don't like the idea of your crazy religious views hampering scientific discovery.

"Science seeks continued betterment, and this discovery would have been made regardless."

Instead of the Almighty, you worship at the altar of science, which cannot ascribe meaning to anything, but simply observe natural phenomena.

We have both a mind and a soul. One without the other is incomplete.

Herb

No response, typical.

There are none blinder than those who will not see.

Happy Thanksgiving to you.

Herb

Yeah. I'm a little done with solicitiing a response that continually comes from both sides of a person's mouth. It's futile. If I really need to quote what I am referring to, I will. But dammit, I just get tired of it.

This constant fighting for clarification on over-stating and understating with Herb is just, you know, sad. I mean, to imply ( but never really say ) that Bush's public disdain for stem cell research somehow caused this " breakthrough " is just plain incorrect. Now, admittedly, that's my opinion. I could be just plain wrong. We'd never know unless the actual scientists involved said so. I'm willing to abide by that proclaimation. There. I said it.

But when Herb get's on that beaten horse, yet again, and says it with such truthiness, it goes beyond his abilty to reason or discuss. " X is in place now - therefore Y must have caused it."

It's just absurd.

There is nothing sadder than those who can see yet are blinded by there own agenda.

"X is in place now - therefore Y must have caused it."

He was a factor. Pooh-pooh him if you want, be he remains the most powerful man on earth. What he says has gravitas to many and he can effect events.

You have your opinion, I have mine.

Herb

It's less than honest to characterize the above rebuttal as "opinion".

There is all kinds of stem cell research going on right now.

These guys have published their results, that happen to align with an agenda. Good news for the pro-lifers! Take that and run with it, feel good about it, but... don't go trying to marginalize others with it. The causality link is not there!

Had we no GOP meddling, it's highly likely these guys will still have published!

Here's something to really twist your pro-life noodle:

Wonder if other results would have been published right now that flat out trump these, had there been no meddling over moral issues?

I'll bet every pro-lifer on the planet would gladly partake of that organ in a petri dish, if it would save their lives! That's what we don't know, do we?

We don't know how far we've been set back. Who is gonna die because somebody "believes" something, but has yet to establish that in either a court of law, or via peer-reviewed scientific method.

Electing somebody, that thinks ..err "believes" as you do, then watching them circumvent the courts and the scientific method is just selfish at the least. It's less than honest at the worst.

Cheapen innocent human life at our nation's peril.

Be a hero, save a whale.
Save a baby, go to jail.

Herb

" Save a baby, go to jail. "

You go to jail because you forgot to work within the system. Something you claim is important. So do it and deal with the results. I do. You say you do too. Keep doing it. If you think that your cause, wahtever it may be, warrants illegal activity, then have at it. Terrorists, speeders and jaywalkers do it all the time. But let's not pretend that people who do something illegal don't deserve to be punished.

I got a new keyboard since my last post. I spilled a beer on it. I'm done buying fancy ones. 12 dollar keyboards are of value to me now.

Ahem.

I'm not about breaking the law.

But it doesn't take much imagination to envision laws being written to criminalize freedom of speech, like a peaceful pro-life march.

We've already seen hate speech charged against ministers for preaching the Gospel.

Herb

" But it doesn't take much imagination to envision laws being written to criminalize freedom of speech,"

It takes ZERO imagination. It takes reading the paper though.

And who is the current KING of that?

You believe this.

A lot of people believe this. There are other issues too. (genetic pollution of our race, over extending life, etc...)

The matter is up for debate for a reason; namely, not everyone values a coupla cells in the same way they do an actual person.

(remember the petri dish bit --could you really grab the dish, then walk out to tell the people you saved all those lives, and left the young kid in the fire and feel good about that?)

Many of us believe a coupla cells is a potential person. We throw those cells away too! How come we don't have pro-lifers funding the gestation of all those innocent lives?

Where are the "save the blastocysts" bumper stickers Herb?

You should feel really good about those scientists finding out that the pro-life approach to this may be viable! That's good news!

You really shouldn't feel all that good about claiming some higher ground over it though. That's the less than honest part --that and the idea that somehow Bush helped this along.

Your authority in this, is not established as an authoritative one. This is fact, not fiction.

And that's where the other element comes into play. The GOP is forcing these issues via political power. Power they got by cheating, circumventing the rules, manipulating, lying, etc...

Nobody is saying you, and others like you are wrong in your view. Many are saying you are just not known to be right!

If this were not the case, the GOP would not need to be doing all the stuff it is doing! Making the case would be a straightforward application of our legal and political process.

Like I said, less than honest. Straight up, full on, rational and honest, means acceptance of the realities we see today. You are not there right now, and that's what set others off!

Why not be cool about it huh? This is great news that supports the idea that we can do this in a way that makes sense to pro-life people. Build on that and sell it to us that way.

Nothing good is ever gained by marginalizing others. Better to just demonstrate the right path on it's merits.

"save the blastocysts"

I'm stealing that.

Oh, and some of those people "Preaching the Gospel" were pushing the line between advocacy and abuse pretty hard, were leveraging the public dime to promote their religion, etc...

It's almost never a case of simple persecution like you pretend it is. Doubt it?

Post one up and let's go through it and see. The "new thread" button is there. Go find your best case and let's take a real close look at one; otherwise, this is just hand waving.

This thread is about the stem cell bit. It's possible we don't need to use embryonic ones. It's also quite possible that we do.

Jury is still out Herb.

--and you are quickly turning what would be good news all around into some kind of, "see, all this GOP stuff is right" kind of thing and that's just not gonna fly.

Well, in Herb's defense, I was the one that brooched the opposing topic. I knew what I was getting into when I posted it. I just am a masochist.

Do it!

(stick it on the old beater work car first though --you never know!)

"You really shouldn't feel all that good about claiming some higher ground over it though..."

I don't believe feeling good about advocating the defense of innocent life is a bad thing.

And as far as feeling marginalised, perhaps that's your conscience telling you that you may wish to re-think our culture's cheapening of life in pursuit of hedonism, convenience, the illusion of eternal youth, and a desire for longevity at all costs..even if it destroys the innocent living.

Herb

" I don't believe feeling good about advocating the defense of innocent life is a bad thing. "

It's not. You should try it sometime.

Hey, I don't feel marginalized period.

It's just that I can smell the sell, and that's not cool, for reasons already posted.

This breakthrough uses a retrovirus to force cell differentiation.

That's the same kind of nasty responsible for AIDS.

We cannot, at this time, allow these bodies to be introduced into humans. Way too many scary possibilities. New diseases, genetic issues, who knows. Nobody even knows how long the buggers will live, nor if they can move from cell to cell.

We may find any of these potential issues to be show stoppers for the longer term.

That, in and of itself, is a totally valid reason to continue ALL areas of relevant research. We call it research for a lot of reasons. In this case, plain old scope of science is a major reason.

We don't know the scope of things. We need to, if we are to refine the technology. That won't happen with dogma inhibiting the process.

Reagan contributed to numerous scientific advances in AIDS research by letting the American AIDS death tally skyrocket thereby shaming others into increasing AIDS research funding after he left office.

This is what non-intellectually-curious Bush is doing here.

We've a ways to go to recover from the Bush setback, not to mention the loss of stem cell researchers who went into other less-political medical research fields.

This is not a WIN-WIN situation. Its NEEDLESS DEATHS-LESS NEEDLESS DEATHS situation.

I don't wish death on anyone, but if SOMEBODY has to die a painful death that could have been prevented by early stemcell research, people who hindered research should be top of the list.

THIS HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH DUHbya!

You all took Herb's bait.

Not only did Shrub have nothing to do with anything except stifling research in this and many other areas where government funding is needed, but also his (Shrub's) list of "wrongs" is so long it would exceed the allowable space allowed per post.

quod erat demonstrandum

Guilty as charged.

Man, we are all suckers sometimes huh?

The title of the thread should've been obvious enough!

"Come here little fishies, come take a nibble".

Resist the troll bait, people.

Since you can't debate your point out of a paper bag, I don't blame you for trying to prevent an opposing view.

Sorry, but this is America.

Herb

"Mr. Bush was Right"?
Only to people like you. Thankfully, that number is dwindling.

Debate with you? Why bother? You're so slippery and such an old pro at not staying on topic and attempting diversions that it's not possible, or even worth my effort 90% of the time. It's like that old Monty Python skit, "I came here for an argument". Pointless.

I see it every single day here whilst CJ, MK, Edsel, Chris, Amus, DT, Skep, Vit, et. al try to get an honest answer or pin you down on ANYTHING.

You cue up the same ol' tired Herb-isms soundtrack LP:
Hamfists? Check!
Water-Carrying for _____? Check!
Nixon Worship bordering on mental illness? Check!
Ad Hominem? Check!
Pink gills, Castro, Commie, and all the other blah,blah blahs.

It's so tiresome. I skip or skim most of your posts and the sporadic link. But I'm happy to know that you don't "blame me" for not entering most of your little shit-storms.

"Sorry, but this is America."

Uh, duh. What is YOUR point on that sentence, exactly?

While I may choose not to debate you in or out of the paper/plastic bag covering your head, know this, and how your opinion affects me on this issue: I have many, many blastocysts "on ice" at my clinic. Every f#$%ing time you write about this subject makes me want to call the clinic and donate those blastocysts to research. Just as a personal "screw you and your inane "Mr. Bush was Right"" BS threads. Keep it up, you help me make my gut-wrenching decision that much easier.

I assume that you still don't have a vagina or uterus. I'm still on the fence about the brain.

LOL!!!

BEGIN SHORT

[fade from black, center out with circular mask]

Props / scene: small room with one odd red door, dull grey paint, whipping boy table, woman in dom costume, man in shorts, hair in disarray, red whip on table near doms hand, slowly moving, bright, off yellow light, with 120 degree cone shade, positioned 3' above head level of dom, man positioned on table, ready...]

Man: Somebody please spank me please!

Woman: [dons whip from table, grinning, raises hand to swing...]

[rapid fade to black, circular mask, edge to center, during swing --fade to complete before swing does]

[enter "Whap! Whap! Whap!" stock effect, on complete transition to black, loop through graphic]

[after 3 sec, display Lucida Console, white on black, "*Plonk!*" logo, 40pt type, centered on screen safe area, no fade in]

[hold effects 3 sec, rapid fade out both whip & graphic]

cue: soft cry, somewhat garbled, fading, worrysome

END (run time 15 sec)

See you at Sundance!