http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21888916/

More reasons why mega-cults are bad for your health.

Like idle hands,
Megachurches are the Devil's playground.

I'm sure there are plenty of even phonier preachers than that guy.
But just because there are crooked doctors, or accountants, or lawyers, it doesn't mean you avoid them all. Therefore, Caveat Emptor*.

Also, be as wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove:

"Jesus also warned against idealizing mankind when he told his disciples to be wise as a serpent and gentle as a dove. To be wise as a serpent means that you guard yourself against the evils in human nature. Unlike the liberal Christians, Jesus did not indulge in vain Rousseauist fantasies about the innate goodness of man, or try to force such fantasies on society. The second chapter of the Gospel of John pointedly tells us that "Jesus did not trust himself to them ... for he knew himself what was in man." But liberal fundamentalists only heed the part of Jesus' message that fits their liberal preconceptions. They tell everyone to be gentle as a dove, while conveniently forgetting the business about being wise as a serpent. They distort the Christian teaching of faith and salvation into a politics of indiscriminate global charity."

http://www.frontpagemag.com/articles/Read.aspx?GUID={15B3A3CB-4D5C-4EE2-A437-9C064DAE631D}

Herb

*P.S. Or maybe just Dick Cavett. He's pretty good, too.

Frontpagemag.com.

I took a look Herb because I never heard of this web site. Now I know why. Let's look at today's headlines. "Hatred, Egyptian Style". "The Muslim Student Union: Where 'Community,' 'Prayer,' and Jew-Hatred Come Together" "Terrorism Awareness Project." "Platform for Terriorist."

If this is where you choose to get your news it certainly explains much about you. It's all negative, negative, kill or be killed theology. I sometimes really question your doctrinal understanding Herb. You're a bright guy however you only see one side of the bible. Yours!

The bible also teaches about putting good and just thoughts into our hearts. I don't read enough of those from you.

Chris, what part of the Bible quote 'wise as serpents' doesn't work for you? As much as I regret it, Kum-Bah-Yah isn't always the best policy.

Consider that police officers protect us from evil. But that doesn't mean they always give the bad guys every benefit of the doubt. Sometimes they actually have to think like a crook to protect us, and themselves.

I enjoy focusing on the best side of people. But sometimes that's simply not wise. The people referred to in the website are from a culture that says Jews are inhuman and Christians should be killed. Go ahead and Kum-Bah-Yah with that at your own peril.

Herb

Herb, you represent a culture that says gays are inhuman and not worthy of equal rights. So what's the difference?

Who has said gays shouldn't have equal rights, they have the exact same rights everyone else has.

They don't have the right to marry and file joint income taxes, among many other family planning limitations.

A majority of Americans believe that marriage is between a man and a woman.

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9C0CE5DA123FF932A15751C1A9659C8B6 3

Herb

A majority of Americans once believed slavery was okay.

A majority of Americans once believed that interracial marriage should be outlawed.

A majority of Americans once thought women should not have the right to vote.

A majority of Americans once believed that blacks should not be able to own homes in white neighborhoods.

And let's chalk up Herb's comment as proof of at least one person here who believes gays should not have equal rights. It couldn't be more crystal clear!

I have a non-rhetorical question about this story: What is the difference between a religion and a cult?

There have been attempts to officially define cults. The one aspect of cult-dom that I think is most important is when the leader uses his position of influence to get some personal benefit from the members that he could not get outside of the organization. These benefits could include things such as money, sex, ego gratification, or favors. Under this definition, a lot of organizations--even ones that are not spiritual or religious--could qualify as cults.

What is the difference between a religion and a cult?

None. They are one in the same.

No doubt there is a blurred line between what is accepted religious practice and what is a cult. I think you need to look at things not in one giant sweeping generalization, but individually.

But it depends on your perspective. Vitalogy since you have no belief in God I can see where religion and a cult look the same.
Me on the other hand having grown up in the church, having a Presbyterian pastor as a father I see it from a different perspective. Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple...cult for sure in my book.

Mormons? I have many close LDS friends and though we don't talk much about our faith with each other I know there are some very different doctrinal differences from what I believe. But that hasn't gotten in the way of our friendships. Because of them I don't see it as a cult.

BTW- Vitalogy loved your post concerning slavery, interracial marriage as spot on. As a card carrying member of the Presbyterian church, our denomination realized that we had made some mistakes. One was about slavery, the other about divorce and the other about a woman’s role in the family.

I can't remember the name of the pastor but circa 1860, this traveling evangelist would preach under his tent and at the end of his sermon asked people to come forward. Not to be prayed for but he handed out a piece of paper that had information on how to help bring slavery to an end and help in the women's suffragist movement. It was social justice, the best kind of religion.

A religion is YOUR religion. A cult is THE OTHER GUY'S religion.

Whether you believe in a God or the UFO behind a comet, this is another good reason to keep your religious thoughts between yourself and your God/UFO.

No doubt there is a blurred line between what is accepted religious practice and what is a cult. I think you need to look at things not in one giant sweeping generalization, but individually.

But it depends on your perspective. Vitalogy since you have no belief in God I can see where religion and a cult look the same.
Me on the other hand having grown up in the church, having a Presbyterian pastor as a father I see it from a different perspective. Jim Jones and the Peoples Temple...cult for sure in my book.

Mormons? I have many close LDS friends and though we don't talk much about our faith with each other I know there are some very different doctrinal differences from what I believe. But that hasn't gotten in the way of our friendships. Because of them I don't see it as a cult.

BTW- Vitalogy loved your post concerning slavery, interracial marriage as spot on. As a card carrying member of the Presbyterian church, our denomination realized that we had made some mistakes. One was about slavery, the other about divorce and the other about a woman’s role in the family.

I can't remember the name of the pastor but circa 1860, this traveling evangelist would preach under his tent and at the end of his sermon asked people to come forward. Not to be prayed for but he handed out a piece of paper that had information on how to help bring slavery to an end and help in the women's suffragist movement. It was social justice, the best kind of religion.

I really like Skeps definition.

...would add that a cult is something rational people would have no part of.

Chris, I wouldn't say I don't believe in god, but what I can say for sure is that I don't believe in god as presented by all the different religions, as all religions but one would be wrong if one did exist, and as of today, I've yet to see any reasonable proof as to whose correct and who's not. So, you can call me an agnostic with an atheistic twist who's certainly willing to be proven wrong. What really rubs me is when people assume because you don't believe in god or go to church every week that you lack morals. This is simply not true, and luckily, we live in a part of the country where this kind of judgment is not prevalent. I've been to other parts of the country where this isn't the case, and I find it sickening and very un-christian like.

Regarding religion, I see it as a cult. It's a teaching that is meant to mold people's beliefs and is often abused to take advantage of society's weakest. I see going to church as a club type activity or a hobby, separate from a religion. I know people that go to church yet don't buy into all the dogma that surrounds their religion of choice, rather, they go to interact with people they share similar qualities with.

I can totally see how going to church can seem like a club. Actually nothing totally wrong with that in itself.

I don't go looking for answers to life’s questions when I go to church. I go to worship, fellowship and in my case also play in our churches contemporary worship band. It scratches my musical itch.

Some of the strongest and most creative minds I know are church going people. Church is a place where they get their spiritual gas tank filled. Like you said I don't always agree with my pastor, or some of the churches policies, then again I didn't agree with some of the companies I used to work for too.

The Pastors who always seem to find their way into the spotlight saying the most outrageous things do not speak for many believers. There are very intelligent evangelical pastors who actually have a clue. One I have mentioned before is the Rev. Jim Wallis. A contemporary theologian who is politically savvy but doesn't throw the bible around like some kind of rules book. Very refreshing and thought provoking man.

I'm not about to try and convince you or anyone else if God exists. I can only tell you about what I have experienced. It's personal that way. If you have questions I'll try and answer them and on more than one occasion my answer is....I don't know.

I have a few observations to share.

The very best church services I have attended were always more interactive than reactive. This also translated into congregations that were more cooperative than conformist. As individuals, the members were also more involved and compassionate, rather than compulsive and reactionary.

After moving to Portland, I grew up in a church that was built by the very folks who filled the pews. My Aunt did the stained glass, my Father built staircases, framed rooms and volunteered late hours beyond his full-time job. The building was filled with the same joy and love that built it. I made wonderful friends, some of whom I still know today.

I also remember being young at camp meeting in Gladstone and hearing wonderful stories of the mission field before bedtime. Or an optimistic talk from a layman and astronomer who encouraged us to go outside, look up and see the gorgeous sky that God would soon fill with his return. God was powerful. God was nature. God was life itself. God was simply everything good.

As the 70s ended, and the 80s began, the entire religion slowly changed. Instead of children singing and imagining wonderful things, or adults reading from the scriptures and discussing passages in depth, we started to be shown things without quality interaction. In fact, any sort of compromise was viewed as weak, and consensus was seldom given enough time to be reached. The inclusive family gatherings about God's natural wonders hosted by scientists stopped abruptly without explanation -- even in our church school.

Movies, videos, touring lecturers and wild eyed authors soon turned the weekly prayer meetings from a fun night with families into an evening of tapping our fears. Instead of playing outside, the kids would all gather for worn 16mm prints of Disney's utterly warped and fictional view of nature. Later on, we were sold the lifestyle of Warren Miller, but without any reverence for the mountain, just the activity. Of course, the parents would be whisked away and fed an ever more hysterical and elaborate version of the "time of trouble" for the millionth time.

A neighbor down the street had a father with one of the most elaborate spectacles of Armageddon. It was no small irony that he hosted the show in a small theater inside his mortuary in East County. As the independent fear mongers went, he was big time: A really wide screen, automatic soft fade between the banks of slide projectors and a professional soundtrack with voice overs pumped through a state of the art sound system. Yes, of course he charged admission -- I mean, took a donation -- to see his version of the end of time.

It started out with a small handful of opportunists, bigots and loonies, but it soon spread like wildfire. The last great moment our congregation enjoyed was unselfishly sharing with refugees from Vietnam. Then suddenly, it was 1950 again, the Russians were coming, our neighbors were snoops, and everyone who wasn't in our little circle to get the truth would perish in a lake of fire. The sky that God was coming back through was looking more and more like London during the Blitz.

As congregations, we were also bombarded with a wave of get rich schemes led valiantly by Amway, and speculative property investments by the conference. Churches grew bigger and bigger, not with people, but with more land and larger buildings. Rumors spread about misdoings, embezzlements and worse. Soon, we knew more about the infrastructure of our religion than we did about loving one another.

Once there was any dissent, the witch hunts began and people were excommunicated. My very first act as a young Junior Deacon? Voting on whether my dear friends' mother and her husband should sit next to us every weekend because she remarried after a divorce. The spiritual value was undermined by gossip, suspicion, politics and greed until our family finally left in disgust. Three generations of my parents' families were in this church, now only a couple folks remain.

Being frightened and brow-beaten into a tightly controlled way of life is in my definition of a cult. A spiritual vehicle used for the sole purpose of financial gain and/or the glory of an individual or individuals is a cult. In my book, if the very act of waking up, going to church and having fellowship is an act of free will, it is religion. If not, it is also a cult.

My two cents in the offering plate.