With a horrible track record and the clock ticking, the impotent UN has neither the guts, nor the time to control Iran's forward movement on nukes.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/iran/story/0,,2212071,00.html

Let's hear your suggestions to address the problem without placing ham-fisted blame on the current lame-duck administration...who may take out the nukes with force if necessary, I may add.

Herb

The link took me nowhere. Please double check. Possibly Bush has already used nukes to take this web site out.

oops...my bad...link is working.

This is where a strong coalition would be very helpful to the US. Our eyes should have been on Iran from the start and not Iraq. What the US doesn't need is more military action in the Middle East without a strong and I mean a strong coalition. If we choose to go it alone from a military perspective I'm afraid the Middle East will explode into some wide-ranging violence that the US will have little control over. The "war on terror" would be lost.

Avoidance of any military action should be the prime directive and finding ways to get Iran to disarm, but I will agree their president is the wild card.

So what are you ideas Herb?

Or we could just turn the whole middle east into glass.

So what are you ideas Herb?

I like your idea of a coalition, Chris.
But it's also important to understand that we will be unpopular with most Islamic countries if we lift a finger to protect Israel, especially if it means blocking nukes from an Islamic country.

We'll be called one-sided, which may be fair. However, last time I checked, Tel Aviv wasn't intent on taking out Mecca, at least militarily.

We need to be prepared for this certainty. And as Lady Thatcher told Mr. Bush Sr., "Now's not the time to get wobbly, George."

Herb

I think the US is pretty unpopular in the Middle East as it stands.

Do you think a strong coalition threat, at least countries Iran has had some kind working relationship with, and more sanctions along side of that threat, might get their attention? Trying to avoid a warning shot over the bow but showing that card, do you think that would be strong enough to get Iran's attention?

I want the countries in the region to step up and deal with it.

It should be THEIR plan. THEIR ideas. Not ours.

There. That's my idea.

Ah geez CJ. You always come up with the better ideas. I'll never get anywhere in this Political Science course.

Israel has nukes, no? It seems like it's just the worst kept secret - but do we agree that they do or not?

"And as Lady Thatcher told Mr. Bush Sr., "Now's not the time to get wobbly, George."

If I remember correctly, I think she said this whilst under his desk in the oval office, right?

Oh wait, wrong Bush. It was Bushie Jr.

Never mind.

I think the President of the United States should take NO ACTION in Iran, even if they nuke another country. We've our hands full installing rightful democracy to the honorable people of Iraq and we've haven't the troops, money and enthusiasm to do more.

We can give the world an opportunity to resolve the Iran crisis on their own until the next President of the United States takes office. But not until then. Not. Until. Bush. Is. Gone.

Keep trying to change the subject.
Classic leftist trash N Bash. No substance.

And since you brought it up, it was Mr. Bush's predecessor who was impeached for lying about indecent acts inside the oval office.

I don't blame you, though. The democrat-led congress is at 11% approval. That's an all-time low, folks. No wonder the left is throwing anything and everything against the wall. It has to be miserable to be a liberal.

But I'd rather have you hijack a thread than the Supreme Court, for democrats to legalise partial birth abortion again.

Whine on.

Herb

Oh well then, lets INVADE Iran! We KNOW they have WMDS. They have an army too. Not the French kind. What's another half a trillion bucks and 100,000 dead American boys?

and over and over and over again.

sh.tk.sk.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk..sh.tk.sk.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk.s h.tk..sh.tk.sk.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk..sh.tk.sk.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk.s h.tk.sh.tk..sh.tk.sk.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk.sh.tk..damn record keeps getting stuck in the same spot.

Let's not forget that the 11% approval rating also includes the obstructionist GOP as well.

Regarding Iran, I don't see them as an imminent threat. Israel can take care of themselves, they have enough nukes to blow up the whole middle east. So if they feel threatened, then they should cover their own butts and not require us to hold their hands. Besides, I view Israel as being barely above the terrorists themselves.

I truly believe Herb you get all your ideas from the writing on the bathroom stalls at Liberty University.

It's the same old tired ideas that don't move us forward in the 21st century. But you'll repeat over and over again because if you say them long enough they may come true. I really hope the GOP gets is ass handed to them a year from now. Because it will be great to wipe your crap in your face.

Holy crap Batman! Bif, Bam, Pow!

"Keep trying to change the subject."

Herrbocrite, it's always only YOU that's trying in vain to quickly change the subject by bringing up "changing the subject".

The only things that will need changing aound here are your drool cups and your bibs that are stained from all the liquid poop that seeps from your Castro-ish jowls.

(Meanwhile, I'm still staring at Chris and thinking "did he really just write that?")

I know, my jaw hit the floor on that one!

It's just the Santa Cruz Organic root beer talking. DT, you know that feeling, right?

I have no memory of what you are referring to.

Neither does PDXRadio. I couldn't find the thread anywhere.

Just so you know...." I can bring it!"

"...the 11% approval rating also includes the obstructionist GOP as well."

Nice try. Voters well remember how cocky democrats were when they finally got a majority in the congress. Now you try to distance yourself from that 'victory.'

It won't wash. The fact that Mr. Bush, whose surge in Iraq is more effective by the day [with no thanks to defeatist democrats] has over twice the approval than the democrat-congress, says it all.

Ham-fist on. It's a badge of honour to be assailed by democrat 'soft on terror' goons.

Herb

I am glad to see that violence in some reports out of Iraq is lessening. Is it due to the troop surge or a combination of many factors it's hard to say. But I am for it.

Herb you have been by far THE cockiest right-winger on this board bar none. And to associate yourself with Bush's approval rating is like saying "Judas and I are best friends."

You certainly do keep the toilet full around here. Thank god you're easy to flush.

I'm not distancing myself from the victory the Democrats had in 2006. I'm realistic about it though. Unlike yourself, I'm smart enough to see that a small minority in both Houses with a dipshit still as president doesn't allow the Democrats to do what they want. The 11% rating is reflective of GOP obstruction, and the smart voters (not you) will recognize this in 2008 and give the Dems a stronger majority so they can conduct the business the voters elected them to do.

"...Thank god..."

Uh, that's "...Thank God..."

Herb

"...The 11% rating is reflective of GOP obstruction..."

The leftist blame game in action.
Accusing republicans for the failure of democrats. How about taking some responsibility...for ONCE!

Nice try. What a hoot.

Herb

How about dealing with reality? Do the words veto or fillibuster mean anything to you, or do you just conveniently ignore them like so many other facts? If the Dems had a fillibuster proof majority I'd see your point, but as far as I can tell, you're just being disingenious.

Hey, I like gridlock as much as the next guy.
With very few exceptions, like the war on terror, or Roe v. Wade, whether the administration is Republican or Democrat, with gridlock there's less trouble government can create for Joe Citizen.

Gordon Gecko in the film "Wall Street" said 'Greed is good.' I disagree. By and large, 'Gridlock is good.'

But there is no other explanation for the low voter confidence democrats now have, except for their abysmal lack of accomplishment. In addition, for the 2008 election they're simply pandering to their union and labour base, whilst nibbling around the edges.

Like him or not, at least a guy like Kucinich says what he believes. These other lefty demos are trying to be 'Republican Lite' and it's absurd how they actually think they can win anything that way.

Herb

I purposely wrote thank god lower case because I am so disgusted with your flippant, cocky, attitude.

Your attitude reminds of a song from movie soundtrack to Godspell.

"Alas alas for you

Lawyers and pharisees

Hypocrits that you be

Searching for souls and fools to forsake them

You travel the land you scour the sea

After you've got your converts you make them

Twice as fit for hell!

As you are yourselves!

Alas, alas for you

Lawyers and pharisees

Hypocrites that you are

Sure that the kingdom of Heaven awaits you

You will not venture half so far

Other men who might enter the gates you

Keep from passing through!

Drag them down with you!

You snakes, you viper's brood

You cannot escape being Devil's food!

I send you prophets, I send you preachers

Sages and rages and ages of teachers

Nothing can bar your mood

Alas, alas for you

Lawyers and Pharisees

Hypocrites to a man

Sons of the dogs who murdered the prophets

Finishing off what your fathers began

You don't have time to scorn and to scoff

It's getting very late!

Vengence doesn't wait!

You snakes, you viper's brood

You cannot escape being Devil's food!

I send you prophets, I send you preachers

Sages and rages and ages of teachers

Nothing can bar your mood

Blind guides, blind fools

The blood you spilt

On you will fall!

This nation, this generation

Will bear the guilt of it all!

Alas, alas alas for you! Blind fools!!"

"But there is no other explanation for the low voter confidence democrats now have."

I suppose there's also no explanation for the money advantage the Democrats currently have over the GOP?

Godspell.

Never saw it, but I hear it blasphemes plenty.

It's a badge of honour to be assailed by those who buy into such productions.

Herb

Every time Herb speaks, God cringes.

I'm hoping God has a little red HerrB-doll and lots of big long hat pins.

I take comfort in knowing that HerrB gets closer to seeing Nixon in that special place every day.

I'm thinking Nixon wants nothing to do this nutty groupie. (See stalker thread on the other side.)

"It's a badge of honour to be assailed by those who buy into such productions."

Such irony coming from a guy that has bought into the biggest production of all time.

Herb you are predictable if nothing else.

The only thing about the movie Godspell that I didn't care for was the ending. The story line stayed pretty true to the gospel. However one needs to actually watch the stage play musical or movie to come away with any REAL conclusions instead casting stones ignorantly.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/12/03/iran.nuclear/index.html

There. Probelm solved.

I am more worried now.
Bush said there were WMD in Iraq and there were not.

Now he says there are no nukes in Iran, so that means there must be some.

It's telling that those who wanted to come up with a plan for Iran based it all on the " fact " that they were developing a weapons program CURRENTLY.

That's not the telling part.

The telling part is that there will now come a shift in the argument from those very same people saying that " It was never about a weapons program." and they'll continue to solicit responses to a non-existent problem. Oh sure, they'll dream one up and try and get us all scared again - but the absolute bloodthirst for war by them is nothing short of stunning.

And completely worthy of being dismissed on this front now. Anyone who STILL wants a war with Iran is just looking for trouble. They like to start fights. They want another chance at a war because they blew it in Afghanistan and Iraq.

In short, why should I believe or support anything they say anymore? They have their own agenda that does nothing good. All bad. Purely to exercise some sort of dominance because daddy didn't love them enough and they want to lash out and be muy macho. They believe that you only get respect through power over another.

No. That's fear.

We're all done with you now.

But by all means, grasp at it and make your case for war NOW. You just can't let go of fear, can you? And it infuriates you that many of us have. So then you call us weak or unpatriotic - fine - whatever. We're not. But because we show some ability to reason and figure things out, you can't operate on that level, so you fall back on fear.

It's sad.

Now here, I'll start you off for the response " No, CJ, what's sad is you being not fearful...Nixon...abortion....hand-wring....touche'! Rinse. Repeat. "

Iran is a paper tiger, just like Iraq was. We could destroy them completely with a push of a button, and they know it.

The latest National Intelligence Estimate (NIE) that concludes Iran isn't trying to build nuclear weapons was requested by:

A. George W. Bush
B. Dick Cheney
C. Condi Rice
D. Harry Reid

You'd think A, B, or C would want the best intelligence on Iran right? Isn't it amazing that Harry Reid had to drag it out of the US government that Iran isn't really building nuclear weapons after all???

Andrew

This could be the most important result of the 2006 elections! You can be damned sure the Republicans in the Congress wouldn't want it known that Iran really isn't a threat!

Andrew

FIGHT FIGHT FIGHT

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20071207/ap_on_re_eu/us_iran

Just can't deal with anything that may slow down the dogs of war, can we? Nope. Gotta build a coalition. Gotta start campaigning. Now that it's been shown to be less of a priority, Iran is now the #1 priority.

Bush and Cheney are so backwards sometimes. Everything is spun to create an oppotunity for war. EVERYTHING. Never peace. NEVER.

Does that not bother anyone?

It bothers me big time.

Major control issues, combined with greed and lust for power thrives in a chaotic environment. I think the reason why is all about keeping people focused on anything but building order and peace.

Besides, we don't really make anything but toilets and war machinery anymore. The damn toilets would be made in china too, if they were not so expensive to ship!

"Bush and Cheney are so backwards sometimes. Everything is spun to create an oppotunity for war. EVERYTHING. Never peace. NEVER."

Isn't it the good, Christianly thing to do? Isn't that what Jesus would do?

Can Jan. 20th, 2009 get here yet?

"Never peace. NEVER. Does that not bother anyone?"

You're placing blame in the wrong direction.

First, Mr. Bush was elected by the American people. Let's start there. This is a democracy. If you don't like what his approach in dealing with dictators, then present a viable candidate for 2008.

Second, students of history know too well what happens when bullies like Hitler and Saddam are appeased. They simply become bigger and stronger bullies. Solve that, and you're half way there. Because the only things thugs respect is a power greater than themselves. Why on earth would Iran declare their intent to obliterate one of the few democracies in the region like Israel? Because Iran is headed by anti-Israel bullies who only understand one thing: force.

I stand for peace whenever possible. But peace at all costs is a path to tyranny by black-hearted, ham-fisted, evil-doers. Ask those who wish Hitler had been stood up to early on before he became an empowered monster.

Herb

Israel being a target of many countries in the Middle East couldn't have ANYTHING to do with US arming them to the teeth with God knows what weapons and their complete inability to stop encroaching on their neighbors' borders, could it?

Even WE aren't arrogant enough to build a wall INSIDE Mexico in the name of "Security"...

"Israel being a target of many countries in the Middle East couldn't have ANYTHING to do with US arming them to the teeth with God knows what weapons and their complete inability to stop encroaching on their neighbors' borders, could it?"

Since the US gives many billions to those allied AGAINST Israel, let's be even-handed and not ham-fisted:

"Aid is central to Washington's relationship with Cairo. The US has provided Egypt with $1.3 billion a year in military aid since 1979, and an average of $815 million a year in economic assistance. All told, Egypt has received over $50 BILLION [caps added] in US largesse since 1975."

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0412/p07s01-wome.html

Herbert Milhous

Don't fret, Herb, I'm coming back. I'm just looking for some unbiased reports (during my workday) Here's a little historical info, though...love this table.

www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

"First, Mr. Bush was elected by the American people. Let's start there. This is a democracy. If you don't like what his approach in dealing with dictators, then present a viable candidate for 2008."

Or, if his leadership style presents the potential for grave danger prior to the next election, impeach him.

Exactly. Impeach away if you don't like the guy.

Herb

Herb, I think I have proven to you in particular that I am willing to engage in a conversation with you.

I think you also know all the reasons why I am now ignoring you.

But back to my point, I know that " it's politics." Yeah. I get that. Maybe I will be proven wrong with my assessment of why and to whom we turn to and ask for help ( Russia today - Saudi Arabia tomorrow - Iran themselves in about 10 years ) but the end game with Bush's policies always seem to have a strong undercurrent of an agenda that is VERY myopic. Everything they do now just has the stench of war all over it. It's never something to feel good behind or feel good about - much less look forward to.

Plus, and call this Bush-bashing - I do not care - I do not trust out current administration to actually achieve their stated goals. Which they seem all too fine with. Which makes me think that they do not care about their stated goals. They actually, I believe, are so in the habit of stirring shit up that it's just their normal reaction now.

I hate sounding like " that guy " who is walking the streets with a sandwich board that has " The end is nigh " on it. But shit, man. How absolutely backwards is it that we half expect Bush to act this way? I feel very lied to and lulled. I'm ashamed of our elected leader. Deeply ashamed. I feel very trapped and scared about things. I am now entering a phase in my life in which my son is a huge priority. I am literally praying for his future like I have never before. It has woken me up to say a few things out loud and not just in my head. Sorry to sound preachy, but being in my own head has not done anything for me OR my son.

I just wish someone would try a different approach. I don't like where we are at these days. And frankly, I directly blame Bush and Cheney for almost all of it.

There. All done now.

"...an agenda that is VERY myopic."

Actually, that's not true. Mr. Bush has acknowledged that many of the situations his administration has been dealing with

A. Were there because a previous administration didn't deal with them effectively,

and

B. The fruits of his efforts will likely not be borne out until after he's out of office.

It's your right to trash the guy, but the final results of Mr. Bush's vision for freedom throughout the world will be judged by historians, not by us today.

http://www.cartoonstock.com/newscartoons/cartoonists/pju/lowres/pjun54l.jpg

I'm not biting!

I don't blame you.

I'd be concerned if I couldn't discuss my way out of a paper bag without name-calling, ham-fisted ad hominem attacks, swearing, or simply lying about what my opponent said. These are the same tactics tried against Mr. Bush by the democrat-led congress, with lousy results. That 11% approval rate, roughly 1/3 of the President's approval rating, proves that.

Whilst the left is afraid, or in lacking the sheer mental firepower, unable, of addressing facts with facts, I'll run the table.

Herb

Herb...
What did you think of Entre_nous's link??

The fruits of his efforts will likely not be borne out until after he's out of office.

But his ERRORS are being felt everyday in America RIGHT NOW!

History has already judged Bush to be the worst ever. History will only be tougher on him as time passes, this you can count on. The guy is a joke that's no longer funny and gets more pathetic with time.

And for the 50th time, the 11% approval rating is not only old, it's a reflection of GOP obstruction towards an agenda the majority elected Democrats to carry out. Come November 2008, we'll then see how right I am and how wrong Herb will be, just like in 2006.

Well then friend you be the most concerned person on this board with all of the name calling you do coupled with the lack of any credible support fir your posts! Pot and kettle all in the same post.

"Herb...What did you think of Entre_nous's link??The fruits of his efforts will likely not be borne out until after he's out of office. But his ERRORS are being felt everyday in America RIGHT NOW!"

Just like the pope, I disagree with plenty of decisions made by this president. He was wrong on the border, he was wrong on NAFTA, GATT, The WTO, big tobacco, I could go on with plenty. However, even though he was not my first choice, Mr. Bush is right on two of the biggest issues in our lifetime, terror and defending innocent life.

"History has already judged Bush to be the worst ever."

Like Mr. Kerry and Mr. Gore, here's where you will be SORELY disappointed in under-estimating the current president. In my opinion, while Mr. Nixon's prescience is what makes him the sine qua non of our nation's greatness during the modern era, Mr. Nixon himself could have learned a few things from Mr. Bush...like don't sweat those who detest you, just keep at your work:
http://providenceblog.blogspot.com/2007/05/keep-at-your-work.html

And that's one reason why the radical left despises him so much. They have been deprived of Mr. Bush giving one whit about their endless rants.

Herbert Milhous Nixon III

Bush only has one whit anyway (dimm) so it is unlikey as you say that he would part with it!

Talk about a non sequitur.

Herb

Well, I read Every post in this thread, It was started by Herb title Iran. He never said how Far, how fast, or why he ran.

Fair enough. You got me.
Have a great weekend, everyone.

Herb

Nixon is regarded as one of the worst presidents ever. He resigned in disgrace. It's very fitting that you faithfully defend the guy that's even worse.

"Nixon is regarded as one of the worst presidents ever."

Read it and weep, Nixon-haters.

An ABC News poll about presidential greatness, taken 16-20 February 2000, asked 1012 adults nationwide, "Who do you think was the greatest American president?"

Abraham Lincoln (19%)
John Kennedy (17%)
Franklin Roosevelt (11%)
No opinion (10%)
Ronald Reagan (9%)
George Washington (8%)
Bill Clinton (7%)
Theodore Roosevelt (4%)
George H.W. Bush (4%)
Thomas Jefferson (3%)
Harry Truman (2%)
RICHARD NIXON (2%)
Jimmy Carter (1%)
Dwight Eisenhower (1%)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historical_rankings_of_United_States_Presidents

OK. It's Wiki. But published results are published results, so:

Check out the ratings of the sitting President compared to his peers, beginning just below the ABC poll, with Rasmussen Reports. All the polls he can be included in follow this one, to the end of the page. He even beats Mr. Nixon in % unfavorable.

Knowing that Clinton got 7% probably just burns you up huh Herb....
Throw Foreign relations and starting the EPA and RESIGNING IN DISGRACE was the best thing he did for America.

Imagine what Mr. Clinton's numbers could have been without lying under oath and being impeached.

Herb

Imagine what Mr. Clinton's numbers could have been without lying under oath and being impeached.

Just think what they would have been if he wasn't EXONERATED by the Senate.....

"Imagine what Mr. Clinton's numbers could have been without lying under oath and being impeached."

Okay...I'm imagining, and I'm not lying or being impeached right now. Mmmmmm...yes. Thanks Herb, it was fun to imagine without lying. Or without being impeached.

(I'm channeling my old grammar school teacher now)

Okay.

Imagine what Mr. Clinton's numbers could have been WITHOUT HIM lying under oath and being impeached.

It's Friday night, but I congratulate you for your eagle eye.

Herb

After the "Rush" thread, I thought this one would be dedicated to A Flock of Seagulls.

And I ran, ran so far awaaaaaaaaay...!

(Thanks for the good advice, Randy! I suggest you all do the same)

FLOCK
OF
SEAGULLS
"I
RAN"

Ugh...I need to clean my screen now...

I know, a flock of shit birds just flew over and crapped all over mine to! I'm gonna "Run Like Hell".

"Run to the hills,
Run for your life"

Wow. I got to quote Iron Maiden twice here already!
Cool.

Hi Mrs. M & Littlesongs! The silence was deafening...

Those were the days when a state of the art MTV music video could be created in a decaying old warehouse with a few lights and a bunch of tinfoil.

Now that same tinfoil can be found on Herb's head in the form of a pointed silver hat!

That's what I wear to keep my hair from catching on fire and my head exploding.

Just like the video. Just like neon parachute pants. Just like Herrbocrite: bad hair from decades past. Lots of smoke, no substance. A one-hit-wonder that got old fast.

Herb, I don't think posting the fact that only 2% polled say that Nixon was one of the great presidents really proves anything for you. If anything, it proves my point more than yours. Thanks!

When I first started reading Herb's posts, I was always amazed at how often he did that. He would post something ( usually a comparison of some kind - which is a tactic fervently avoided by debate teams ) that would make a point, but it would always support the argument against what he was trying to claim. I found it odd. I thought it was a trick or something.

Then I started seeing the rest of his posts in that light, trying to put myself in his brain. It was then I realized that he only sees what he wants to see. I mean, it was textbook blinders. Never seeing anything bigger than what he wants to see.

Then I got it.

And then I drank a beer.

The end.

And it was good. Can I have an amen?