exam an Oregon graduation requirement, by statute?

Historically this was not the case. Somebody, from my otherwise fine school district, indicated that this test was a graduation requirement, along with providing all personal information requested.

Before I go off, just thought I would ask a few people I know and do some research. Any of you know about this?

Something I should know?

Thanks!

I would like to know more about this for sure. I too will wait to see if someone has some good info.

Thanks for bringing this to my (our) attention

Spoke with my kid today. These things happened in our school:

-prior to the test, a school-wide announcement was made:

'None of this is for the Military. They are just here to help.'

-teachers, from different classes during the day said the following:

'this is just part of the list of things you need to do in order to graduate.'

'You have to take this test [name].'

-when asked what the test was for / about, educator responses to the students included:

"career planning"

"find out what your skills are"

"to help you decide what you want to do"

We have instructed our kids not to take the ASVAB test. They are free to take one after 18, but not before.

After being lied to (I believe, unless it really is a graduation requirement and I've not kept up.) and manupulated via some pretty serious misrepresentations, my kid was seated for his test.

Seeing the recruiters and reading ASVAB, he asked, "Do I really have to sit here and take this test?"

Answer: "Yes, this test is mandatory."

So, he marked up pretty designs in the dots, came home, and here we are...

I'll be doing some research tonight to prep for my school visit in the morning.

"I'll be doing some research tonight to prep for my school visit in the morning."

I bet you will. And I'll be right behind you.

Thanks.

As of right now, I can find no requirement linking the ASVAB to an Oregon High School diploma.

Some schools use it to fill out the career interest / study requirements either in effect, or coming online as of 2007.

http://arcweb.sos.state.or.us/rules/OARS_500/OAR_581/581_022.html

http://www.ode.state.or.us/search/results/?id=28

Arrgh.

Liars. I really hate that. It's hard enough to get a trust relationship with the schools. This undermines a lot of work.

It seems to relate to the post-HS plans of the graduate, in terms of goal setting and career consideration...I went to Google, which directed me to the ODE site...searched "military entrance assessment" (dead end)
so I looked at the requirements for diploma and found 22 credits required AND these four additional:
1. Develop an education plan & build an educational profile

2. Demonstrate applied learning

3. Demonstrate career related knowledge and skills

4. Participate in career related learning experience

It looks like the assessment would apply as "research" for requirements for #1 & #3.

Not having a child in school, I'm out of the loop and I'm glad you brought this up for discussion. I'm interested to read more about this and will keep digging.

I'd love to know which kids are being steered in this direction and why. What I've found so far is probably not news to you, and I look forward to seeing the other replies.

Yep. You are spot on and that's how the test is positioned.

However, these requirements do not make the test mandatory --and that's the key phrase right there. Military people are in the room, kids are wondering and being lied to / presented with serious misrepresentations.

If you find an actual link, as in one cannot graduate, unless one takes the ASVAB test, I am very interested in seeing it.

Re: Which kids?

Get this!

Basically all the Juniors were called to assembly, lied to (test is mandatory for graduation), misrepresented to (military just here to help, test is for career planning), then led into group test taking.

Not just some kids. All the juniors.

I type too slowly

I would like to be behind you too. Cudos for your stance "..18, not before." Plus, your kid not giving in to the intimidation factor on all sides is a testament to your skills, IMHO. I'd love to see that paper

I wonder if it's buried somewhere in No Kid Left Behind...off I go...If I'm not back in 1 hour, send help armed with Crown Royal.

Gawd, have they no shame?

I'd call the new superintendant in the AM, after that glowing article about her today in the "O", I'd be surprised if she thought this was OK.

Edsel, where are you...he probably knows!

It appears NCLB forces schools to release student personal information.

There is an opt out. With all the goings on, I didn't get this done (or don't remember --will find out tomorrow.)

I'll deal with the other kids and close that loop.

There is no penalty for not taking the ASVAB, federal or state from what I can see. If there were, it would have to be detailed and linked to criminal or civil law, administrative rule, something... it's just not. I think I'm safe on that matter.

Again, if you find something contrary, do post it here.

The schools like the tests because they get paid for allowing them to happen. All they do is play "rope a dope" with the kids, get it done and cash in, leaving the military to do it's thing with fresh lists of names each year.

That misrepresentation / intercom announcement is really chapping my ass right now.

We just spent the evening covering how and why ASVAB = day off from school. Now they won't forget it! Never hurts to include a little positive reinforcement ;)

No shame?

It appears dollars are hard enough to come by, doesn't it?

Anyone have a press contact?

I really like the "O" idea. It's likely too late to get it done that way, prior to a meeting, but I absolutely will be calling the Super. No question about it. I just want to see if the lower level staff will stick their foot in it any deeper first.

(makes for a better story that way, at the least)

We are not Portland Public BTW.

Don't you just love the little provisions the Bush Administration has tucked away in NCLB?

Yep. He's a $&)(*$#! Only a little while left!

What I've found so far confirms your thoughts about no actual statutory requirements or repercussions, and confirms the $$ flow as well: not in so many words, but the implication is clear: more completed participants = more money.

Did you see these in your search?

http://idahofallz.com/2006/11/28

that leads to

www.antiwar.com/whitehurst/?articleid=5049

They all seem to confirm the "not mandatory" status of the ASVAB. The Idaho Falls story is old, but also talks about Juniors being coerced into surrendering personal info and testing without parental consent...

Hi all,

Interesting experience with the ASVAB testing, Missing. Do your kids attend private or public?

Our district, and my building in particular, has a particularly progressive staff, so this kind of testing would never get past the front door. In fact, military presence in our building is limited and rare. But, we have a recruiting office close by our campus.

There are currently no required exit tests for high school in Oregon, simply that you must complete the required number of credits (this varies from district to district - state numbers are minimums). Even to say "you must take this test" sounds flakey, but is eerily similar to the recently abandoned CIM standards, which were dropped mainly because they had no teeth. For CIM the student simply needed to attempt to meet CIM standards.

Perhaps the school or district has required participation in ASVAB due to the new "essential skills" standards that are moving to the front as CIM recedes to the back. These are workplace skills that employers (and the military) would like to see kids have more of. Here's an informative site that outlines the recent changes in grad requirements. Note in particular the emphasis on Essential Skills:

http://www.getreadyoregon.org/newrequirements.aspx

Back to testing: NCLB is funding-based. In fact all national education standards are funding-based, meaning that the only penalty for not meeting the standards is the potential loss of funding. Some districts in the US have found the NCLB standards so unfair and onerous that they have simply opted out, and refused to take federal funding, meaning that NCLB is toothless for them.

But for the 99.9% of schools looking to meet AYP (adequate yearly progress ) under NCLB, they must test to show how they are doing. These areas are reading, writing, math and science. The ASVAB is a vocational skills test so wouldn't directly aid in determining AYP in the four prescribed areas.

So...ASVAB sounds like one way a school is attempting to address Essential Skills training and assessment. It's a test that might do a good job of addressing and assessing those skills, but has the unfortunate connection with the military. A particular school or district (I believe) could require participation in an ASVAB assessment, but the results are irrelevant to graduation (how could you "fail" it, anyway?) It would be nice if the assessment results could stay solely within the district, but I imagine the military is retaining the right to process the results (for obvious reasons). BTW, where do the Selective Service registration records go? Do the military have access to those? Or is 18 too late for them to recruit?

Educators hate reinventing the wheel, so if a good assessment tool that addresses the upcoming Essential Skills standard exists in the ASVAB, we'd be inclined to want to use it, though many will balk (I would) at the source of it. I'm betting that in time better assessments will arise that will take the place of the ASVAB. This is all new, folks, and we're still working out the kinks.

Most of the sources I found suggest that this test is not readily applicable in the terms of skills that a potential employer would want, except for the military. So it seems that career planning or dangling the $-for-college carrot, would be a ruse to get the student's personal info, going around parental consent ( since most of those students are juniors).

Please keep us posted.

Thanks for looking into the details, Entre. If that's the case then I cannot begin to concieve why a high school would make any such test "required". Very, very odd.

Long ago, my High School worked the same gig. It was eerie hearing my son describe the day. Brought back some memories.

One in particular was confirmed with him this morning. The military administers the test. I remember some lady, I never saw again, being somewhat stern with us, administering the test.

His account is similar.

Ed: My kids are in public schools. We've gone around on CIM / CAM too. If one digs deep into that matter, it's something a school can require, but a parent can override with a letter detailing why.

I suspect the law governing these kinds of things is broad enough to apply to this ASVAB as well.

BTW: When I took that test years ago, I scored very high in electrical, mechanical and analytical. Got pestered to the Nth degree by military people.

So, eventually, I caved as I was into a frame where I might want to participate in the military. Recruiter scored with about 10 of us.

Ended up doing a term with the National Guard, didn't actually see any of my skill set used and that chapped my ass. I know from personal experience, the recruiters will SAY ANYTHING to get their number.

I didn't re-up and by that time had began to have deeper political / ideological convictions forming. Some of those were directly impacted by my brief military experience.

Not all of that was bad, BTW. IMHO, the boot camp experience is actually a very good one for personal growth, discipline and just simple perspective.

There is absolutely no level of personal intimidation that can have any serious or lasting impact on me these days. Frankly, I've not seen anybody even come close to the level seen in even the least effective drill sargents!

Core things, like "move with a purpose", following directions, acting quickly, assessing situations, etc... all good. As was the first aid, survival stuff (which I really grooved on).

I am absolutely not anti-military. That's part of why I just posted what I did. I am however extremely biased toward it being a reasoned choice. Our military should lead by example in this. Lying, etc... are offenses that are punishable in the UCMJ. (uniform code of military justice)

Getting their numbers via these things is just less than honorable. The school jumping in, playing "rope a dope" for some dollars, is even more offensive and also runs contrary to their code of ethics.

Asses.

And where are our conservative, "Practice what you preach!" friends on this one huh? Seeing the silence on this thread, and having read the "lives in a mansion / has a big ass carbon foot print" comments on our recent Gore / Edwards threads, is more than a bit telling, don't 'ya all think?

I'm gonna head down there today and ask these questions:

-is the ASVAB test mandatory?

-does the military see the results?

-who administers / proctors the test?

-what compensation does the school receive in return for this activity?

Then I'm gonna start working the press. I did find some nice bi-lingual resources for parents. I've got a few, who are interested in passing the stuff around. Would link it, but I'm on another machine. Will do later.

(continued)

My core beef is not the test, nor the school enabling it to happen.

It's the LIE and MISREPRESENTATIONS that are at issue. Growing up, those two things caused me no end of grief. Took half my life to really get past those things, understand my own self, feel good about that, and deal straight up and honestly with others.

(this is no small thing for anybody really, which is a big part of why we have the problems we do today.)

As a parent, I know better than to give --even a little on these things. They lie at the core of good people. We are supposed to be building good people, one kid at a time. --...err maybe 4 at a time, in my case!

Our public schools spend considerable amounts of time hammering kids on core code of ethics matters. Don't lie, do what you are told, treat others with respect, resolve differences without violence, etc...

This implies a position of trust and integrety --and must, as that kind of learning is done by example, modeled through various social situations experienced as one goes through childhood.

(every educator has to have been taken through this right?)

When this kind of crap is done, it goes a coupla ways.

If the parent is active, some discussion will occur. That's how it will go with my family.

If the parent is not active, the kid finds it out later in life. And that's how it goes with a lot of families.

What message do they learn in either case?

In the former, the school is gonna lose some of their trust relationship, thus limiting the impact of their efforts. My kids already call me on things they find to be odd. I've let them know I'm only a cell phone call away, and they do call and it's been good.

(and it annoys that school, but all in all, it's been good for all parties)

In the latter case, there is no reinforcement of the correct behaviors. The default then is some sort of it only matters when it comes to peoples attention kind of thing and here we are today with a whole bunch of people with all sorts of varied understandings about what is a lie, what is a manipulation, no perception of the potential negative impact, little ability to help their own kids, and it's all some ugly cycle.

Hell, it takes most of childhood to clarify, lie / manupulation -vs- "mistake"! Having to work through this crap, does not help one bit, and takes a ton of time and energy, I might not actually have, and that just chaps my ass huge!

Interestingly, my brief military experience, really highlighted how important these basic things are! In a war / combat / state of emergency scenario, we don't need a bunch of people running around trying to deal with basic human issues and that situation at the same time.

It is the same with ordinary adult life!

..or is it? I have to wonder, seriously wonder.

Do you think it's an attempt to cherry-pick the kids who have little parental involvement and are easy targets for any predatory element?

Get the test results, approach the kids who meet the benchmarks, establish relationship outside parental scope-of-influence, offer carrots. Little Johnny comes home and says "I'm joining the military" and parents have no influence because the recruiter has taken over the position as friend and advisor.

I hate to sound all Orwellian, yo, but c'mon...

IMHO, they most strongly target areas where there are high percentages of poor / ethnic people.

So, had the meeting. After some discussion, I did confirm that the ASVAB is not mandatory.

Of course then, why state that it is?

Answer: To make jobs easier! That's really it.

So, those staff members get to come in, meet with my son and explain that lying to him was easier than not and why. He gets to ask whatever questions make sense, then we move on.

There were some events, not well executed prior to the ASVAB day that contributed to students not understanding all their options. Of those, that did get the message, some chose to not take the test. My son was not one of those who got the right information presented to him. Had this taken place, he would have just chosen to not take it and none of this discussion would have happened.

The primary issue, in this case, was my son ending up in the testing room. If he had been told he didn't have to take the test, many students would have looked at that and likely left too. Messy. Given high schoolers, likely pretty messy!

I can understand that. Don't like it, but understand it. We will see what my son thinks later.

So, rather than deal with that, it's easier to just lie and move the kids through to the next activity.

BTW: The school has stated they get the ASVAB for free, they do not receive dollars, only save them as standard, non military career assessments cost a coupla thousand dollars to administer. I don't think that's a significant amount of money, but that is what it is. At least I know why that test is being used over other ones.

Who has access to the "test" results?
Who/what/how are the results relayed to the student? Is it by mail, by guidance counselor? by military people? I find this whole thing pretty disturbing...

The tests are scored by the military, but "not added to the database without student / parent" consent.

Like I really believe that!

Student gets results in a few days, in a meet and greet setting where people are there to "help them make solid career choices" answer questions, etc..

I'm really glad your son gets to ask those questions. That's much better than the old days of "Because we said so" BS, or not coming clean with it at all, like there was some misunderstanding.

I'm intrigued by the test itself and have asked my crack(pot) research dept. for help in getting a true sample of it. One has a sophomore that may be facing this next year, and knew nothing about it. They are off to speak with the 10th grade counselor Monday.

Although they don't want to admit it, I've heard the ASVAB is one of the primary means of recruiting people into the military.
BTW, when I took it 10 years ago, the "consent" for the military to use the information was presented during the test itself, where you signed a statement saying you agreed to it so you would get the results. At the very least, I bet part of the information is used to create a national database of which people knew what in high school, to make any future draft easier.

I agree that there is an honesty issue here. If your kid lied to the school administrators, they'd probably give him detention, suspension or expulsion based on the severity of the issue and what was involved. But your kid can't request that they be forced to take a day off without pay or issue a public apology to the entire student body and actually expect they would carry through with it. If anything, I bet your kid will question the validity of anything else they tell him.

Yep.

That's what I emphasized with the Principal. He's actually a pretty good guy. Once we got past the damage control, parent handling 101, he was there. I didn't ask for something horrible, understood that person who lied was human, etc...

If those two have that conversation, they can re-establish a trust relationship. If he knows she is dealing with him straight up, we've got few worries. As it is right now, he absolutely will question. This all started with a question he knew we would get an answer to.

Having that person look him in the eye, tell him it was easier to just make him take the test and feel good about that is hard enough to make them reconsider their options next time.

If that happens, it's all good. We can move on and get back to doing those other things we are all supposed to be doing.

We talked about it (my son and I). She could have taken him aside and handled it. She could have let him leave and dealt with the mess. (really having some things not done means it's not totally her deal)

She could also have said, just sit there and do what you want. It's too difficult to do otherwise right now.

etc...

It's not a bad school. Good staff, and I've not had to do this much. I need to say that. I know I'm a hard case, but I do have great kids to show for it... Ideally, this will make it better still.

Newflyer, I remember the same thing!

It's not such a bad thing with the high cost of college what it is. Just don't go all cloak and dagger and lie about it. It is not required but is not necessarily a bad thing to do in order to see what options and all options for further education you have.

I agree with this. I also believe that kids should have access to military people. Some of them are interested and join and do very well. It's a viable career option, current political times aside.

My nephew is a great case in point. He didn't do all that well in his late teens. Couldn't keep a job, had a tough time adapting to adult life, blew off some college oppertunities, etc... Generally just didn't have direction.

He joined the Marines and is currently being trained for domestic response, search rescue, etc... It's an excellent choice --and a reasoned one we helped him with.

This is how you join the military, ideally that is.

Had he just signed up, he would likely be a grunt and that would be a waste of his excellent physical and mental skills. He's also big on helping people --perfect for his current role in the armed forces.

..also, had he not spoken to recruiters early on, he may well be continuing his misdirection, having left a choice --pretty good choice, off the table.

And college is expensive! The military can help with this, but one has to really make sure they are getting that help as part of an enlistment, or that said enlistment will reinforce one's personal goals and skills.