My new favorite website:

http://democratsforlife.org/

Can I join?

Herb

From the Web Page About Us

Democrats for Life of America exists to foster respect for life, from the beginning of life to natural death.

Check

This includes, but is not limited to, opposition to abortion, capital punishment, and euthanasia.

Check

I must qualify as "Pro Life"

What they don't mention is if they are Anti Choice.

I could not find any reference to a stand on Roe v. Wade.

What I did see that would tend to be a turn off to many "Pro-Life" Republicans was a reference toward religious tolerance.

If the 'choice' involves stopping a beating heart of the unborn, no truly pro-life position would favour it.

Otherwise, the term pro-life is meaningless.

Herb

I know your position.

I was trying to determine theirs.

True pro-lifers aren't warmongers.

"I was trying to determine theirs."

No problem. I guess I was trying to understand how one could say they're both. I think Mrs. Clinton might try. But after waffling around in support of two opposing views on alien driver licenses last week, maybe not.

Herb

I'm pro waffles. I love them, eat them as often as I can. I think there is no higher form of food.

I'm also pro-choice. I don't believe you don't have to love waffles like I do, in fact you don't have to like them at all. You might even hate them, which is your right.

So I'm pro waffle and pro choice about waffles. Get it, Herb?

I'm anti-family.

I'm anti bicycle.

I'm Auntie Em.
Have you seen Dorothy?

I'm anti killing innocent pre-born little kids.

Herb

I'm anti-killing innocent pre-born older adults.

Pre-born.

I'm ANTI-EXTREME polotics,My way or the highway thinkin' you gotta do it my way and that's it!

Herb said>>>I'm anti killing innocent pre-born little kids.

But as soon as their out you could give a crap....

"But as soon as their out you could give a crap...."

I've stated my position and will pay higher taxes for kids. So prove your statement. You won't because you can't.

More liberal drivel from a so-called 'republican.'

Herbert Milhous Nixon III

At least 75,000 innocent Iraqi civilians have been killed as a result of the war YOU support, and a war that we all know now was NOT necessary. By continuing to support an unnecessary war that is killing innocent people ALREADY ON THIS EARTH, you are hardly a true pro-lifer. You're nothing more than a hypocrite that is anti-abortion, but certainly not pro-life.

"...At least 75,000 innocent Iraqi civilians..."

#1. Cite your source.
#2. Show how the true figure for lives lost is more than the lives lost by Saddam Hussein's dastardly reign of terror.

Herb

#1. Herrbocrite rarely cites his sources.
#2. If he really cared, he'd Google it himself and show you that you're wrong. But he can't and/or won't.

#1:

76,352-83,175 killed: http://www.iraqbodycount.org/

Over 100,000 civilians killed as of 2004:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A7967-2004Oct28.html

Opinion Research Business (ORB) poll conducted August 12-19, 2007 estimated 1,220,580 violent deaths due to the Iraq War.

The United Nations reported that 34,452 violent deaths occurred in 2006 alone.

The Lancet study's figure of 654,965 excess deaths through the end of June 2006.

Concerning war-related deaths (civilian and non-civilian), and deaths from criminal gangs, Iraq's Health Minister Ali al-Shemari said that since the March 2003 invasion between 100,000-150,000 Iraqis had been killed.

7,479 total police and military killed through 26 September 2007.

112 journalists, 40 media support workers, and 95 aid workers have been killed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Casualties_of_the_conflict_in_Iraq_since_2003

3859 US troops killed in action so far.
http://icasualties.org/oif/

#2:

It would be pure speculation to predict how many people would have been killed by Saddam during this time period, but I believe that no matter the source, a reasonable estimate would be far, far less that what our actions have caused.

A true pro-lifer does not support such unnecessary deaths like what has occured thanks to the US invasion of Iraq.

"It would be pure speculation to predict how many people would have been killed by Saddam during this time period..."

How convenient.

Trash N' Bash from the left.
Nothing new here, folks.

Herb

Ignoring facts will get you nowhere in life.

The troll ignored the fact that we went to Iraq to rid Saddam of WMDs, NOT to save his people from his reign of terror.

How convenient.

Based on the fact that Saddam was contained, I'm sure the number of deaths would be much less than what they stand at today as a result of our invasion.

*double PLONK*

Another classic George Carlin line referring to the right-wing pro-life pro-defense crowd ...

"If you're in the womb, you're fine ... if you're out, you're fucked."

"...If you're in the womb, you're fine.."

Not around bloodthirsty abortionists like naral and 'planned parenthood!'

http://www.jillstanek.com/archives/Elena%203.jpg

Herb

Herb you have yet to respond to the 30,000 children that died today due to preventable starvation. (10 million in a year)

Your morality is very selective.

I'm not being selective when it comes to children. I say save 'em all, Chris. It's the left who's being selective. To them, the pre-born don't even count! Think about it.

It all starts with the preborn child, and continues until they're adults. That's why we have pre-natal health care. For example giving the Moms prenatal vitamins helps prevent spina bifida.

And this is coming from a conservative: I say raise our taxes if it TRULY goes to save the kids...and not some group with a socialist agenda, like the NEA or some pinko anti-American labour union.

Herb

An embryo or fetus is not a child.

Then you're fine with partial birth abortion.

Herb

Herb, where have I said I'm fine with partial birth abortion? Please don't lie about my position in order to further your agenda.

Herb, until now, I thought I understood how you feel about abortion - and even why you felt that way. Perfectly understandable.

But I've been watching and listening as closely as I could as you've clearly " upped " things around there on this topic. It made me wonder even more.

So rather than just label you in some way that marginalize how you feel, I'm just going to ask you;

Have you even protested in front of an Abortion Clinic in any way? Or been a part of some specific plan to try and stop a specific doctor or clinic from operating in any way?

You have publically crossed a line that is beginning to smack of some of the same tactics that I see others usings ( specific verbiage, literature, pictures seemingly drawn by children, shaming tactics, etc. ) that is very prevalent among people who protest. You know the ones - screaming at women being escorted into a clinic, false pleading and feigned counselling from across the street. It just made me wonder; Have you ever done that?

"...where have I said I'm fine with partial birth abortion?"

Fine. Then be intellectually honest: If a fetus is not a child as you proclaim, what is the problem with partial birth abortion?

fe·tus Pronunciation Key [fee-tuhs]
–noun, plural -tus·es. Embryology. (used chiefly of viviparous mammals) the young of an animal in the womb or egg, esp. in the later stages of development when the body structures are in the recognizable form of its kind, in humans after the end of the second month of gestation.

Herb

"Have you even protested in front of an Abortion Clinic in any way? Or been a part of some specific plan to try and stop a specific doctor or clinic from operating in...ANY WAY? [capitals added]"

ANY way?

Donations to pro-life groups? Yes.
Prayer? Yes.
Pro-life marching? Yes.

I believe in working within the system to change bad law. That's how partial birth abortion was overturned, and how Roe v. Wade will be overturned.

Herb

I'm against partial birth abortion unless it's medically necessary for the life of the woman. I'm against an outright ban though, because I believe the life of the woman trumps that of the fetus she's carrying.

Personally, I've never been a part of an abortion, and I never want to be part of one. I think abortion sucks. But, I respect the right of a woman to choose to terminate her pregnancy if she chooses to. It's her body and should be her right. It should also be done as soon as possible.

My wife and I are currently trying to get pregnant. We've had two miscarriages in the last year, one at 11 weeks and one only a few weeks just last month. We're both mid 30's, so we are ready for a family. I completely understand people's position of being against abortion. For the most part, I am too. But, I don't believe in allowing the govenment that kind of control over a woman's body or her medical choices. I also worry about women being subject to investigations when there's a miscarriage.

My stance on reducing abortion is that sex education should be mandatory and that birth control should be government subsidized and made available to anyone who wants it. We already know from statisics that abortions happen at the same rate whether it's legal or illegal. Educating our people and arming them with birth control is the best bet.

You can't find any doctor that will say that there is a medical reason for a partial birth abortion. They are all for the mental health of the woman.

Vitalogy, then with all due respect, if you're uncomfortable with partial birth abortion, you might consider thoughtfully re-thinking the statement "...a fetus is not a child."

If the unborn isn't a child, there's no need to have doubts about abortion.

Herb

"You can't find any doctor that will say that there is a medical reason for a partial birth abortion. They are all for the mental health of the woman."

This, of course, is a contradiction.

"You can't find any doctor that will say that there is a medical reason for a partial birth abortion."

Maybe because "Partial Birth Abortion" is a term made up for the procedure by Herb's buddies.

Do a little research and see how many are performed and WHY!

Do you think any, and I mean ANY woman WANTS this done at ANY stage of a pregnancy? Even if she's NOT in her "right mind"? It's not like they're done just because a woman feels like ending her pregnancy!

JHC on a popsicle stick! Why does anyone bother or continue to engage these two buffoons on this subject? I am SO SICK of it. You men can talk all you want, but ultimately neither of you will ever have to make that decision or have any idea what it feels like. Ever. No matter how much you want to.

As someone said earlier, we all know where each other stands on this topic, nobody is going to change their mind. If I had my way, the only time this subject should come up is when we are discussing a candidate's position on it. That's all I (we?) need to know here.

Can't we all just put a permanent moratorium on this topic?

And Vitalogy, I am so very, very sorry for your losses. I've been there, and it's so unfair. I know your pain. Keep reaching for that star.

Love,

MM

" Pro-life marching? Yes. "

In front of clinics? Just curious.

"In front of clinics?"

No, but I give a 'thumbs up' to those who do.

In my opinion, these precious people value life highly and share a bond with those who stood in the way of Hitler's ovens.

Herb

Thanks Mrs M. As with anything that's worth having, it's worth working for.

Chickenjuggler asked - "In front of clinics?"

Herb answered - "No, but I give a 'thumbs up' to those who do."

OK. Thank you for answering so clearly. I appreciate that.

Then Chickenjuggler went back to assembling new bookcases for which for make his wife happy.

Herb wrote:

In my opinion, these precious people value life highly and share a bond with those who stood in the way of Hitler's ovens.

YOUR OPINION????

All you do is make them and smoke a cigarette. Where do you get off telling other people what to do with their bodies you self proclaimed "freedom lover"?

"All you do is make them and smoke a cigarette."

Sorry, I don't smoke. But since this about snuffing out life, as was pointed out by a Supreme Court justice, one's freedom stops at another person's nose. Except this is about far more than punching someone in the schnozz. It's about human life.

Your outrage is misplaced, for most outrageous of all is that you apparently don't recognize pre-born babies with a beating heart as human. Their human DNA is just as evident as yours or mine.

Herb

just as you don't recognize preborn older adults with a beating hearts as human.

Q: Do you smoke after sex?



A: I don't know, I've never looked*!

!!

(yes, BTW --It's the greatest cig ever.)

*down there

Herb will fight tooth and nail for the birth of a baby but doesn't give a rat's ass after it's born.
True EXTREMIST!

Don't lie Trixter.

What you said is untrue.

I am an adoptive parent.

Herb

Up until 1989, I was a registered Republican.

From then until just last year I was registered Independant.

Unless there are some big changes in the Republican party, I expect to be:

A "Democrat for Life"

Same here.

But Herb you don't advocate SOCIAL programs EXCEPT pro-life???? NO social programs paid for by tax-payers dollars??? NONE???
That's what I mean by NOT giving a rat's ass about after they've been popped out.
BTW... My sister and brother both have adopted kids. One from China and another from Russia.

"...you don't advocate SOCIAL programs EXCEPT pro-life???? NO social programs paid for by tax-payers dollars??? NONE??? "

Actually, that's not true. I said I would have voted for Measure 50 IF most of the money actually went to kids, and not to some pro-abortion, anti-family socialist slush fund of Mr. Kulongoski's.

Herb

No, you voted against measure 50 because you think it's more important for big tobacco to protect their profits rather than apply a tax to big tobacco to help uninsured children. Talk about a black heart.

"...you voted against measure 50 because you think it's more important for big tobacco to protect their profits..."

Wrong yet again, my leftist friend. I would gladly support the outlawing of cigarettes. Too bad Oregon's liberal democrat majority doesn't have the guts to put it in writing for Mr. Kulongoski's signature. I guess they're all too busy pushing their abortion message. Unlike smokers, the preborn can't fight back.

Herb

But Herb my EXTREME RIGHT friend YOUR the one that says consistently that the LEFT wants more taxes for SOCIAL PROGRAMS and that the LEFT is pushing us closer to SOCIALISM with SOCIAL PROGRAMS! But, you advocate spending TAX-PAYERS money for PRO-LIFE issues.
Kinda makes you more of a SOCIALIST HYPOCRITE than most on this board.

Well, abortion has nothing to do with Measure 50. But I do think it's ironic for someone who is so consumed with protecting the pre-born to choose big tobacco over uninsured children, you know, the "post-born." The choice seemed pretty clear to me, and I voted for the children. Unlike yourself, I put my money where my mouth is.

"you advocate spending TAX-PAYERS money for PRO-LIFE issues. Kinda makes you more of a SOCIALIST HYPOCRITE than most on this board."

You have a problem, my liberal pal. There is little that's more important than the defense of innocent life. Yet the left is more willing to spend millions of taxpayer's dollars in defense of a convicted murderer, than the innocent murdered in the womb.

Herb

Last time I checked, the right to a defense is not a liberal agenda, it's a Constitutional requirement. But, I know you neo-cons like to piss on the Constitution unless the discussion is about guns.

It's OK to outlaw cigarettes!
Because I don't smoke!

It's OK to outlaw people's legal choices, if they're female and/or gay!
Because I'm neither!

It's NOT OK to ban/outlaw guns!
Because I like 'em!


That's why he's the Herrbocrite!


And to paraphrase just him:

Piss On!

And to paraphrase the upcoming Christmas ads for "The Clapper":

Piss Off!

Herb said>>>
You have a problem, my liberal pal.

It's YOU that has the problem... YOU CAN'T READ! Liberal... LOL! Your so deft that you can't comprehend what people type on this board.
Your actions and those that follow your EXTREME RIGHT ways are the one's that will put Hillary in the White House.
Thanks Herb....

Herb also said>>
There is little that's more important than the defense of innocent life. Yet the left is more willing to spend millions of taxpayer's dollars in defense of a convicted murderer, than the innocent murdered in the womb.

But YOU'LL send thousands to their deaths and think NOTHING of it for the sake of YOUR agenda. What does that say about you??? YOUR willing to spend TRILLIONS!!!!!!!! without thinking about the CHILD that is being lost to another mother!!!!!!
Sick... Simply sick.
Thanks Commie.

HerrB sez:

It's OK to kill the post-born in other countries: both our own and the residents!
Because I believe in the WPE and WMD's, and they're all either terrorists or they are now happy and FREE! (Despite evidence to the contrary). Plus, Guns are good!

"Thanks Commie."

Ouch.
Other than Nixon-bashing, that's the ultimate insult.

Herb

Herb...
I heard Castro is looking for a friend. Ill sends his regards in your fight for EXTREMISM. Your "MY WAY OR THE HIGHWAY" attitude is going to get Hillary planted in the White House with the largest victory margin EVER.
KEEP IT UP!

"I heard Castro is looking for a friend."

Well, that blackheart is going to have to look elsewhere.

Herb

With a PRO-life vote I bet you would give him your hand...
In bed with the Red...
Keep it up Herb....

You mean when the Supreme Court overturns Roe v. Wade?

Okay. I'd go for that. I'd shake the evil blackheart's hand.

Reminds me of a quote by Winston Churchill:

"If Hitler invaded hell I would make at least a favorable reference to the devil in the House of Commons."

But I wouldn't turn my back on the guy, nor would I eat or drink anything he offered. The guy's a cold-blooded murderer.

Herb

If it can be overturned, it can be overturned again. This administration has shown me that nothing is set in stone. Our system is mallable.

So Herb, look forward to this.

At the end of the day, the human race is progressive by nature. We become more educated and with that education comes greater social and technical awareness that will always trump the dogma.

Always has, always will.

You lose in the longer term.

Losses will occur in the short term, too.

"...the human race is progressive by nature."

I gave you more credit, for you have arrogantly and pridefully bought into man's sheer folly.
Hitler, Marx & Engels all thought mankind would 'progress' too. They were all miserably and thoroughly wrong. Here's why:

"...the heart of man is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked." Jeremiah 17:9

"...there is nothing new under the sun." Ecclesiastes 1:9

Mankind hasn't changed. Sin is the reason.

Herb

...for the season?

How needlepointy of you.

"...the heart of man is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked." Jeremiah 17:9

If you believe in this statement, then you cannot truly believe in democracy. If man is deceitful, they therefore must be lead, else chaos will reign.

So which kind of tyranny do you prefer Herb - fascism or communism?

He prefers fascism, as long as it's his brand.

"If you believe in this statement, then you cannot truly believe in democracy."

Wrong yet again, my liberal pal.

Our founding fathers were Godly men, yet they understood how treacherous and ruthlessly evil man is, and would always be. Ever hear about 'checks and balances?'

They recognized that the best they could do was try to set up a terrific system and pray for providence from the Almighty.

Smart men. Imperfect, but smart.

Herbert Milhous Nixon III

"Quick! Everyone! Look over here at the founding fathers!" says Herrbocrite.

Ah, another nice dodge attempt from the slimemaster.

Classic.

No facts.
Just more mud slinging.

No wonder the approval rate for the democrat congress is 11%.
And falling.

Herb

"for you have arrogantly and pridefully..."

Really?

I think it just chaps your ass to see that perhaps things are not quite as cut 'n dried as you would like to believe.

Looking back over the road we have traveled, as a race, is not arrogant, or prideful. It's just rational. The events are there, as are the results and body of knowledge so acquired.

Say what you will. Mankind has progressed! I would love to see your case for regression --if only for the entertainment value alone.


I'm sorry you have such a dark view of people.

Know why we lie?

We lie out of shame. Know why we have shame?

Because we allow others to define who we are and what we are worth.

If one feels good about ones own self, (and there is absolutely no reason to feel otherwise, unless one is self-serving at others expense) there is no reason to lie, period.

Lies are all about control. Basically, some of us need to impact what others do and say, for self-serving reasons. We lie, engage in wars, manupulate, etc... to serve some element of ourselves.

We use this and shame to impact people, limit them, control them, and devalue them.

In this, religion can either do a lot of good, or a lot of bad. If said religion is based on shame, then it's gonna do a lot of bad.

Period, end of story.

So then, you are really focused on the bad part. That's the shame part. We all should be feeling really bad about how evil, deceitful and wicked we are.

Gotta tell you, I'm not those things. A whole lot of people are not those things.

Some of us probably are, but that's their issue, not one for the whole race.

You wanna deny sin and its effects, do so at your own folly.

Mankind will ALWAYS be capable of tremendous good, and tremendous evil. That's just the way it is, ever since the fall. Some Germans put people in ovens. Other Germans hid people in their own homes under the threat of execution. We have free choice. As long as we have a choice, we will continue to make good decisions and bad ones.

Oh, you can try to re-invent the wheel and delude yourself into THINKING that man has changed. But you'll be greatly disappointed, for it will be a rude awakening, indeed.

Again, look at the founding fathers. Terrific minds, but flawed. Leaders are no different today. Their saving grace was faith in the Almighty.

http://www.eadshome.com/QuotesoftheFounders.htm

Herb

"Their saving grace was faith in the Almighty.

I would say that was their downfall.

"If you believe in this statement, then you cannot truly believe in democracy."

Wrong yet again, my liberal pal.

Our founding fathers were Godly men, yet they understood how treacherous and ruthlessly evil man is, and would always be. Ever hear about 'checks and balances?

You say the heart of man is evil. But Locke - the grandfather of democracy - felt the true, deep heart of man was selfless and caring for others. The circumstances and needs of existence on this Earth drive men to evil deeds, but if the conditions of life can be improved, the selflessness of man can begin to emerge. What we do and who we truly are often are two different things.

I do not deny that people act selfishly and even in evil ways. But what, on average, is the true nature of man? If you believe in our heart of hearts that all men are evil, then you agree with Hobbes, Machiavelli and others that the people must be lead by a strong leader, without question. However if you agree with Locke, then democracy is a viable form of government. Think about it - why would you participate in a system where each of your fellow voters is thinking primarily of their own selfish needs, rather than the needs of the society?

Finally, here are some Founding Father quotes for you:

"But it does me no injury for my neighbor to say there are twenty gods or no God. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." - Thom. Jefferson

"Question with boldness even the existence of a god; because if there be one he must approve of the homage of reason more than that of blindfolded fear." - Thom. Jefferson

"I have found Christian dogma unintelligible. Early in life, I absenteed myself from Christian assemblies." - Benj. Franklin

"Lighthouses are more helpful then churches." -Benj. Franklin

Faith in the Almighty, eh? I'll take the Founder's reasoning over their faith any day.

Most certainly Franklin and Jefferson will be dismissed by the troll as Bash & Dash (tm) liberals of the ilk that resides in this forum.

"But Locke - the grandfather of democracy - felt the true, deep heart of man was selfless and caring for others."

It's a pleasant experience to embrace and understand Mother Teresa. But try to explain Hitler. Explain Stalin. Pol Pot. Mengele. Castro.

"But what, on average, is the true nature of man?"

A fair question. But there's an intrinsic problem, because it is misleading to consider an 'average' student, or an 'average' criminal or saint. One can be very selective or not at all selective about what 'average' is.

Truth is, here we are comparing man with himself. Try comparing man with God, for that is a better standard. That standard is also much, much, higher.

C.S. Lewis offered this view of Christ becoming man, and how low man is from the Almighty. In a discussion about what it meant for Jesus to come and live on earth as a human being, he wrote:

"The Eternal being who knows everything and who created the whole universe, became not only a man, but (before that) a baby, and before that a fetus inside a woman’s body. If you want to get the hang of it, think how you would like to become a slug or a crab."

"If you believe in our heart of hearts that all men are evil, then you agree with Hobbes, Machiavelli and others that the people must be lead by a strong leader, without question. However if you agree with Locke, then democracy is a viable form of government."

No, men are not totally evil. And I sincerely believe democracy is a God-given institution. Think about it. The great democracies are where God is often revered. But you only need a touch of strychnine to do the job. That's the problem. Someone like a Hitler could keep the trains running on time, so he was defended by those who either profited from his madness or saw the little real good he did. Besides, hey he was a vegetarian and was kind to animals.

But when we look at mankind, let's look at everything. Consider that many people won't let your car in as you try to merge onto the highway. They might even get road rage. Or they lie to their family. Or they cheat on their income taxes. Or they steal a few office products from work. Or have a gambling addiction and embezzle. But maybe they give to an animal shelter. So they feel righteous. But they're not.

It's what's in our heart that counts. And only by living in accordance with the Almighty can our conscience recognize how depraved and selectively okay we are with our own flaws.

"But we are all like an unclean thing, and all of our righteousnesses are like filthy rags" (Isaiah 64:6)

Herb

"It's a pleasant experience to embrace and understand Mother Teresa. But try to explain Hitler. Explain Stalin. Pol Pot. Mengele. Castro."

Your answer your query later in your own post: Madness. These megalomaniacs (and isn't this every leader, to some extent?) were mentally ill - sociopaths. Perhaps this is a very rare condition, or perhaps the circumstances allowing these people to rise to power occur only rarely, but it is clearly still not "average".

"it is misleading to consider an 'average' student, or an 'average' criminal or saint. One can be very selective or not at all selective about what 'average' is."

Wha? Average is not an abstract concept. It's that big bulk of people in the middle. The trait the vast majority have. Otherwise known as "average". Why can't you keep this train on the tracks?

"Truth is, here we are comparing man with himself. Try comparing man with God, for that is a better standard. That standard is also much, much, higher."

Here is what you said, in a different context: "My dog has average canine intelligence. But, I am comparing him to other dogs - I should try comparing him to humans, which is a much higher standard. Ah - now I see that my dog is an imbecile, an idiot, a drooling panting dunce." I don't think it's appropriate to talk about the nature of Man in a comparative way, because we're not trying to figure out what he can or might be, but what he is.

"The great democracies are where God is often revered."

Probably true. But might that reverence come from the freedom to worship as one sees fit, or even to have the option to not worship at all? If the state begins to dictate God, then we begin to see God as a dictator and despot, and people will turn away from him.

Besides, hey he was a vegetarian and was kind to animals.

Wacko.

But when we look at mankind, let's look at everything. Consider that many people won't let your car in as you try to merge onto the highway. They might even get road rage. Or they lie to their family. Or they cheat on their income taxes. Or they steal a few office products from work. Or have a gambling addiction and embezzle. But maybe they give to an animal shelter. So they feel righteous. But they're not."

All true. But this could be read in many ways. Either your interpretation or mine could make sense of this person's actions.

"It's what's in our heart that counts. And only by living in accordance with the Almighty are we even recognize how depraved and selectively okay we are with our own flaws."

There are many paths to enlightenment, Grasshopper. You have yours, which is great - really. But ramming it down the throats of others is disrespectful, discourteous, and frankly unAmerican. That's why you catch it so often from this group.

...Grasshopper

Love it! Have a great weekend Edselehr!

"It's that big bulk of people in the middle."

Plenty of people watch Jerry Springer. In fact, it has pretty good ratings, I would imagine. But it's also dumbing down. Besides, who wants to be average? Few would admit it.

"If the state begins to dictate God..."

What? Show me where I've ever said that. Yet we say it is wrong to commit certain crimes. Is that not legislating morality?

"...we're not trying to figure out what he can or might be, but what he is."

You're pretty good with hypotheticals. So along with considering 'average people,' consider this:

A record 7 million people -- one in every 32 U.S. adults -- were behind bars, on probation or on parole by the end of last year, a Justice Department report released yesterday shows.

Of those, 2.2 million were in prison or jail, an increase of 2.7 percent over the previous year, according to the report.

More than 4.1 million people were on probation and 784,208 were on parole at the end of 2005. Prison releases are increasing, but admissions are increasing more.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/11/30/AR2006113000912.html

But mankind is improving, right?

Herb

I see you typing but all I hear is Blah Blah Blah!

What'cha got going this weekend Dark?

Big plans. Gotta clean out the store room and garage, take two loads of pack rat garbage to the dump, redo some more trim in the ol' homestead, fix the wiring in the kitchen, repair the seal on the dryer door, pressure wash the front porch, put moss killer on the roof, winterize the cars and put together the winter road kits for same. Then on Sunday .........Gonna grind the Fluffy Merkins (Merkins Fantasy Football Team) into the astroturf!

I'm pullin' for ya, Dark, just 'cuz I love the trash talk over there! BTW, look in your junk folder for a note from me. Sometimes they go there...

"..I see you typing but all I hear is Blah Blah Blah!"

Dismiss it with a wave of the hand if you wish. It doesn't change the truth.

Herb

From your point of view! And every person has there own and who is to say which is wrong and which is right? Not you or I thats for sure! So quit preaching like your's is the only damn way or you'll rot in hell because absolute's corrupt absolutely!

HerrB is becoming a megalomaniac right in front of us. He's starting to remind me of monsters like Hitler.

It starts out small and innocuous, and before you know, it's exploded into a full-blown case of 'there can be no deviation from my plan', and now it's escalated to Defcon 2: "I know better than all of you, and I even know what God wants! I've read his book, so I'm an expert. Now follow me!"

Geeeez, we are this far away from an election, man I don't even want to be around after the candidates are choosen. HerbB will be up high on his pulpit for sure preaching his prattle and basically pissing off good people with his flippant use of the liberal card. Well i'd rather be an open minded liberal and a closed minded fool any day! Go Hillary go, i'm gonna vote for her just to piss off Herr HerbB. (Not Really) but damn it Wayne, knock it off!

"Plenty of people watch Jerry Springer. In fact, it has pretty good ratings"

As do TV ministries. Laugh at Jerry Springer if you wish, but you're closer to being one of them than anybody else here.

I'd be worried if I DIDN'T tick off the left around here.

Herb

Get over yourself.

Someone has to represent the non-radical view.

Herb

Didn't Mimi have a whole bunch of "Herb" doll's sitting on her desk?

Who's Mimi?

Herb

She did. And hat pins too.

Ever watch the Drew Carey show? Mimi was a secretary, you know the one that wore the Mu-Mu.

Why is it called a mu-mu, or is it Moo Moo?

"Someone has to represent the non-radical view."

Actually, you represent the radical view.

Yep.

When somebody says, "Nothing else matters, but..." that's radical.

Herb said>>>
Someone has to represent the non-radical view.

That WOULDN'T be you.....