http://www.rasmussenreports.com/public_content/politics/election_2008__1/2008_pr esidential_election/new_hampshire/election_2008_new_hampshire_democratic_primary

Herb

Sweet. Being a supporter of Obama, I'm happy to hear that.

The one question I have, is if the GOP want's Hillary to be the Democratic nominee, then why do you guys seem so scared of her?

Because they've ceded so much power to the executive branch, they know they're screwed if Hillary takes the reins.

Let me get this straight, Clinton has a LEAD of 10 points?

The conservatives' Mother of all Nightmares has them peeing in their pants. Depends, I suggest, depends.

She has a lead of 10 points in the demo primary, not the general election.

Well, duh! Now go back to your nuclear power plant Homer!

And Nwokie, if the Republicans make a mistake by picking a Bush clone, she will lead by 25 points in the general election.

Are you suggesting that one of the republican candidates is a "Bush clone"?

Pat Robertson endorsing Giuliani shows just how much The Far ( side ) Right despises Clinton. I mean, sure, you don't get any more crazy that Pat Robertson, but still.

It's adorable how disposable their core values are when it comes to the prospect of not winning.

who running is a Bush clone?

All of them are Bush clones...they're representing the GOP. I can't wait for the comparisons come advertising season. I can see it now: "Want more Bush type leadership, vote for "X".

Keep it up Herb!
You and the rest of YOUR EXTREME RIGHT flock are going to get America to rally around the one YOU pick on.
Keep it up Herb...
Keep it up!

"Keep it up Herb... "

Hey Trixter. Why are you always so eager to defend the leftist candidate? I thought you were a republican...or did you forget?

Herb

Hillary Clinton plays the victim and is called on it.

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/

Herb

It's not getter any better for Mrs. Clinton. Her democrat opponents are really pouring it on, now.

http://www.nydailynews.com/news/wn_report/2007/11/12/2007-11-12_hillary_clinton_ suddenly_vulnerable_as_b-2.html

Herb

You know of course that if Clinton wins by 10 points, the Supreme Court will give the win to whoever the Republican candidate is.

As they should.

really, all they will do, is make sure the rules that apply on election day are followed in any recounts.

"...the Supreme Court will give the win to whoever the Republican candidate is..."

Spot on, Nwokie. Especially if people like Mr. Hsu keep it up:

http://abcnews.go.com/Politics/Decision2008/wireStory?id=3583395

Herb

Herb, Nwokie: Now don't get mad, but you two are starting to sound like supporters of Pakistan's leader. You say "Too Hell with the votes, we are the only ones who can be in charged.

Not at all.

Just be even-handed. If Mrs. Clinton is taking funny money, call her on it as well.

Herb

Hey, she's giving the money back. So why doesn't George Jr. give the Saudis back the money they gave him to start the war in Iraq?

I believe the US should be re-paid in oil or other materiel by both Afghanistan and Iraq for all our work to free their countries.

Herb

Too bad it's the American taxpayer that is putting it on their "tab" to be paid back in the future with interest.

That shouldn't be and it's one of many areas where I disagree with the president.

Herb

"I believe the US should be re-paid in oil or other materiel by both Afghanistan and Iraq for all our work to free their countries."

I am so totally in agreement and wonder where that oil money is going now.

On top of that, we should be re-paid by Afghanistan [and our neighbors to the south] for abatement from all the illicit drugs shipped into our nation. That's drug warfare.

Herb

The U.S. can destroy all the poppies in Afghanistan, but Bush is afraid to make them mad. I say make them mad and get rid of the heroin trade.

I say leave the poppies alone if that's some poor Afghani's only source of income. And stop dumping planeloads of toxic HerrBacides on their heads.

We supported, then wiped out the poppies in Viet Nam and Thailand and the people starved, thanks to us.

(Back in the good 'ol days I remember seeing Ha$hi$h that had the gold Afghani state seal stamped onto it...)

"...and the people starved, thanks to us..."

Classic.

We give 50,000+ American lives trying to free the Vietnamese and it's blame America first.

Herb

"I am so totally in agreement and wonder where that oil money is going now."

The mighty US Army is unable to get any oil flowing in Iraq. So, no money is being made from Iraq oil anywhere.

As a result, GW Bush, the Texas oilman who wasn't able to find oil in Texas, isn't able to find oil in Iraq either.

I've been to SE Asia Herrbocrite, and talked to them and have seen it with my own 2 eyes, more than once. It's sad that babies (that are actually born!) are commonly still dying of Dysentary (sp?) due to lack of clean water in this day and age. It's a pretty devastating to see how those folks live. Or don't.

And we could probably solve the entire problem with the money we spend in just one day on "MISSION ACCOMPLISHED" and "THE WAR ON TERROR".

Let's hope we don't "give" another 50,000 lives to anybody. Oh wait, we've already passed that number, but it doesn't count because they're just burka-heads, not American boys and girls. did the WPE not learn ANYTHING?

No, he was AWOL, oops, absent that day. And no, he did not.

Now go back to the Watergate and take another nice long nap with your blinders on.

You can't make this stuff up:

http://www.cnn.com/2007/POLITICS/11/13/clinton.planted/index.html

Herbarino

Hillary is going to lose???
I don't have to move to Switzerland!!!!

Herb...
Still backin' The HUCKster?? JUMP SHIP! JUMP SHIP! He's DOA!
You can't make that stuff up!

Actually, Bush has already made that up. Hillary is using a page out of the Bush handbook when it comes to softball questions from the crowd.

"Still backin' The HUCKster??"

Mike Huckabee remains my first choice. Unlike all the democrats and some of the republicans, he's both pro-life and strong against terror.

Herb

Remember Jeff Gannon AKA James Dale Guckert?

I prefer someone who's strong on terror as well. That's why I'm voting for the Democrat nominee. The GOP nominees, including Huckabee, are "wrong" on terror.

There is a nice bumper sticker:

"Being Wrong is not a part of Strong."

A bumper sticker I saw today:

The road to Hell
is paved with Republicans!

Funny thing about HerrB's source above...it changes every day/week so his reference to HRC a week ago has changed since his thread starter info. Here are some newer items from there:

A Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey found that 61% of Americans would like to see U.S. troops brought home from Iraq within a year
================================================

In the race for the Democratic Presidential Nomination, Senator Hillary Clinton is the top choice for 41% of Likely Democratic Primary Voters. Senator Barack Obama earns the vote from 20% while former Senator John Edwards attracts 17%. Bill Richardson is preferred by 5% and no other candidate tops the 3% level among Likely Democratic Primary Voters.
=================================================

...To begin with, new data shows Thompson is no longer seen by Republican voters as the most conservative candidate in the field. Mitt Romney earns that title for the first time and Mike Huckabee is gaining quickly. Also, the full week results for the Rasmussen Reports Presidential Tracking Poll show Thompson’s support at the lowest level since May.

If the HUCKster will lock-step with the fascist DUHbya regime then he might pull in the EXTREME RIGHT voters that seem to be like deer in the headlights right now.

Trixter, you're acting like a leftist loon again.

Mr. Huckabee is a good guy. If you're simply going to trash talk, you look silly unless you provide some facts once in a while.

Otherwise, it's simply leftist agitprop.

Herb

Herb YOUR always acting like an EXTREME RIGHT loon.....

Herb said>>>
Otherwise, it's simply leftist agitprop.

LOL!
Thanks Commie....

Agitprop. Is that one of Bill O'Reilly's cute little words he trots out to close his nightly show, right before he tells us that he's "looking out for us?"

Agitprop:
In the western world, agitprop has a negative connotation. In the United Kingdom during the 1980s, for example, socialist elements of the political scene were often accused of using agitprop to convey an extreme left-wing message via television programmes or theatre.

Thanks Wiki....

EXTREMIST Herb is at it again....
KEEP IT UP Herb and Hillary will be sitting in the Oval office that her husband got a hummer in!
Thanks again!

Maybe she can get one, too!

Tit for tat, I say!

Vitalogy, every time I see a new word pop up that is obviously fed to Herb from Fox, I think of this...and I think of it often.

http://www.kithfan.org/work/transcripts/three/ascert.html

It's like some sort of secret handshake code tag. If you use the word, you buy into the ideology.

Looking for some entertainment?

Use one of these FOX words, then twist the talking point around 180. They will look at you really funny and often will get really animated in their conversation --defensive even. Kind of like, "you can't use our word like that!"

Fun stuff.

"...I see a new word pop up that is obviously fed to Herb from Fox..."

Wrong again. I happen to read.

Herb

Oh, OK, it's from the Fox website...

Agitprop appears to be a favorite word of Fox's Drama writer Michael Kuchwara.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,213027,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Mar31/0,4670,TheaterWarPlays,00.html

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007Aug20/0,4670,TheaterStratfordFestival,00.html

FAUXNews is EXTREME RIGHT propaganda.

“If she can’t handle the heat during a Democratic contest, wait until the Republicans really start going after her,” [Wolf Blitzer] told TV Newser. “If she’s the nominee.”

I think she'll be just fine. What's your point, if you have one?

I can see his point plain as day, it's right there in plain view, right above his shoulders sitting on his neck.

Would Margaret Thatcher, Indira Gandhi or Golda Meir whine about a tough election fight like Mrs. Clinton?

Heck, no. If you can't take the heat, then get out of the kitchen. This is PRECISELY why the first woman president will be a republican in the Lady Thatcher mould:

"On Tuesday, a top aide to Hillary Clinton indirectly warned moderator Wolf Blitzer not to be too hard on her in Thursday's debate. The warning was issued via the Drudge Report, an influential Web site that has received numerous leaks from the Clinton campaign on such topics as her fundraising prowess.

"This campaign is about issues, not on who we can bring down and destroy," a senior Clinton aide told cyberjournalist Matt Drudge. "Blitzer should not go down to the levels of character attack and pull 'a Russert.' "

Blitzer, who said he had not been directly contacted by the Clinton campaign, called the New York Democrat "a sophisticated, strong politician." But he also issued his own veiled warning.

"If she can't handle the heat during a Democratic contest, wait until the Republicans really start going after her," he told TV Newser. "If she's the nominee."

Blitzer also defended Russert against criticism by Bill Clinton.

"I think Russert was doing his job," he said. "He was trying to follow up and be Tim Russert. He asks tough questions. That's what people want. I admire him."

Finally, Blitzer took issue with Bill Clinton's complaint that six "boys" - a reference to the other Democratic presidential candidates -ganged up on one "girl," his wife.

"Hillary Clinton is the front-runner," Blitzer said. "No matter if it's a boy or girl, there's a tendency to gang up on that person. It's a natural phenomenon."

http://www.democrats.org/page/community/post/deeannaroberts/CvBm

The best you can do is quote a blog quoting the Examiner.com and trying to make it look it was directly from www.democrats.org? Lame.

Hey Merkin, maybe I should send Nick Folk over their to kick that soap box out from under him. Wadda ya think bout that?

No refutation.
Just blame the source.
Classic leftist move.
Try to prove me wrong.
You can't.
Hand wring on, lefties.

Herbert Milhous

Wayne on

Wayne off

Wayne on

W.......

Ah Crap, the damn thing is stuck again.

Here you go Herrbocrite:

Refutation!

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philip_Anschutz

Damn, that was too easy.

You're proven wrong every single day here, you dipstick.

Other than being a tad liberal, sounds like my kinda guy.

Herb

"Heck, no. If you can't take the heat, then get out of the kitchen."

I agree, Herb:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bi8zyp1je9Y

More Bush bashing.

Sorry, he's not my ideal candidate, either.
But it shows how desperate the left is to continue kicking a lame duck.

Oh well, at least you didn't kick the deceased Mr. Nixon, God rest his blessed soul.

Herbert Milhous

Hey HerbB, put on a new record, the one your playing get's stuck in the same spot all of the time. It's like listening to Starship "We Built This City" over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over and over!

and over.

You mean the 'lay off a lame duck' record, or the 'Mr. Nixon was an okay guy record?'

Don't say 'both.'

Herbert M.

P.S. Anyone going to watch the democrat debates tonight?

I don't know what a Democrat debate is.

Thought I might check out the Democratic debate though.

With their squelching of views favouring the pro-life cause and educational choice, democrats are hardly democratic.

Herb

and over.

Worst songs ever:

http://www.usatoday.com/life/music/news/2004-04-18-worst-songs_x.htm

1. We Built This City Starship
2. Achy Breaky Heart Billy Ray Cyrus
3. Everybody Have Fun Tonight Wang Chung
4. Rollin' Limpbizkit
5. Ice Ice Baby Vanilla Ice
6. The Heart of Rock & Roll Huey Lewis & The News
7. Don't Worry, Be Happy Bobby McFerrin
8. Party All the Time Eddie Murphy
9. American Life Madonna 2003
10. Ebony and Ivory Paul McCartney, Stevie Wonder

You forgot one:

Spin On by HerbB Hamfist

Yeah, if I couldn't defend horrific democrat positions, I'd try to hijack the thread and change the subject, too.

Jabber on, leftists.

Herb

We learned it from watching you Herb, we learned it from watching you!

Everybody was Kung-Fu Fighting!

So what if Clinton's lead increases in the near future, Herb? Will it make you change your mind about her?

Herb said>>>
Yeah, if I couldn't defend horrific democrat positions, I'd try to hijack the thread and change the subject, too.

Jabber on Commie

Okay, Brezhnev.
Say 'hi' to Andropov for me.

Herb

When the Clinton's get desperate, the ham-fists get flyin':

Just days after increasingly acrimonious exchanges in Thursday’s Democratic debate, agents of Mrs Clinton were quoted as saying that they had obtained unspecified “scandalous information” about Mr Obama.

His campaign responded furiously over the weekend, challenging Mrs Clinton either to make the information public “or concede the truth that there is none”. Mr Obama, who is standing on a platform of changing Washington’s adversarial culture, accused the Democratic front-runner of using “Swift Boat” tactics of “innuendo and insinuation” similar to those deployed in the 2004 race when John Kerry’s Vietnam war record as a Swift Boat captain was smeared.

“I am prepared to stand up to that kind of politics, whether it’s deployed by candidates in our party, in the other party or by any third party,” he said. “The cause of moving America forward demands that we defeat it.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/article2896710.ece

Herbert Milhous Nixon IV

Problem with that, the swift boat folks told the truth about Kerry.

LOL

The swift boaters were proven to be liars. That's already been settled.

It just keeps coming back. Mis-information, broadcast over and over...

"Mis-information, broadcast over and over..."

Yep, it's almost like a religion.

Textbook Cult.

Everything the "Swif boat" personel said was true, Kerry wasn't in Cambodia on Christmas day, as he claimed. Kerry has never released his DD 214 as he promised, which will show the status of his original discharge.

Swiffers™! Those are those maxi pad-like thingies that you mop the floor with! Wet or dry, you decide!

(Wow, Okie, I didn't know you were over there with those guys!)

It's like some weird game. As long as all the regular players keep saying the stuff, it's perfectly ok to ignore the others, right or not.

Leftist thread hijack alert.

Were I a socialist, I'd try to change the topic from my party's pathetic positions and performance,too. That includes the left's all-time low of 11% approval in the democrat-led congress.

Herb

Nwokie>>>Kerry has never released his DD 214 as he promised, which will show the status of his original discharge.

Want to bet on that?

On May 20, Kerry signed a document called Standard Form 180, authorizing the Navy to send an ''undeleted" copy of his ''complete military service record and medical record" to the Globe. Asked why he delayed signing the form for so long, Kerry said in a written response: ''The call for me to sign a 180 form came from the same partisan operatives who were lying about my record on a daily basis on the Web and in the right-wing media. Even though the media was discrediting them, they continued to lie. I felt strongly that we shouldn't kowtow to them and their attempts to drag their lies out."

link

Hey, that pathetic performance goes right back to the "if you obstruct, we will invoke the nuclear option and change the rules to suit us" GOP.

The lot of them working the "do as we say, not as we do, we are all about gridlock, and are counting on you Democrats to not be the asses we are" for all it's worth, hoping to score whatever they can before getting their asses handed to them, for all the Un-American crap they've pulled.

What I'm going to love watching is the whole, "but Bush isn't running!" play. Remember party unity Herb? Yeah, that's right. A whole field of Bush Republicans, all looking to do more of the same.

Most of the country is looking for a change up, and that's just not gonna come from the current GOP.

...betcha all something, that nice clarification gets ignored.

Were I the Herrbocrite, I'd try to change the topic from my party's pathetic positions and performance,too.

Forgive me for plagerism, but "You can't make this stuff up!©"

Wahooo!

" left's all-time low of 11% approval in the democrat-led congress."

OK. Fine Herb. If you are going to keep saying that, let's determine who is getting the 11 % approval.

I say it's only Democrats. 11% for Democrats. What's the approval rating for Republicans?

The most visible national republican is Mr. Bush, with an approval rating nearly three times of the democrat-led congress.

Mr. Bush certainly wasn't my first choice for president, yet he's practically run the table on the democrats. Imagine what Mr. Nixon might have been able to do.

Herb

Yeah. That wasn't at all what I asked.

Troll, What's the approval rating for Republicans?

Its called Google. Pretty simple set up. You want to know an answer? type it in.

Mc74, you're not the troll!

For cryin' out loud. My point is that you can't parse out an 11% approval rating for a group comprised more than one and say it only applies to ONE of those groups.

Herb, we get your point. Really. But for Pete's sake, it doesn't apply the way you keep saying it. And every time you say it, it makes you look ridiculous. You use words wrong all the time, it's nothing new. But you sound like a fool when you cite that 11% crap ALL the time and apply it to Democrats ONLY.

Touche'!

"OK. Fine Herb. If you are going to keep saying that, let's determine who is getting the 11 % approval.

I say it's only Democrats. 11% for Democrats. What's the approval rating for Republicans?"

-- Chickenjuggler

*PLONK*

"I laughed like hell."

-- Kurt Vonnegut

That's it. That's the bizzare cult thing right there.

It does not matter much if some of the elements of the talking points are wrong. Most people are not gonna go and look.

So then it's a numbers game. There is air cover from FOX, AM and a whole slug of pundits. If it makes "joe six pack" kind of sense, just say it, and say it a lot.

Frame that whole mess with bumper sticker marginalizations for those doing anything else --particularly those incorporating solid facts into their efforts.

Make 'em look bad. That's the whole "but he lives in a mansion" bit. It's just about doing whatever it takes to keep the focus off of their actual message.

The air cover serves to secure some common core points. Again, does not matter if they are solid or not, only that they are heard a lot.

"the real issue is more complex" (which is silly given the over simplifications we see regularly) "socalist whatever" "government doesn't work", etc...

These things are meant to appeal to core desires, needs, or maybe issues most of us have. Some of us explore them, but most of us are just frustrated. Heard often enough, it makes people wanna believe, and that's key.

So, going forward then, the GOP needs the help. They are the party that just wants to get business running the way it should, get rid of restrictions, etc...

All the crap that annoys people. Having a restriction of some kind is not anti-business, for example, but can be framed this way. There are a ton more, just like it. Taxed to death, etc...

Weave in reaffirmation for common personal failings, such as bigotry, racism, class envy, etc...

And you've got the party that appeals to anybody with a chip on their shoulder, or personal axe to grind. (hates gay people, etc...)

This brings us to people talking to people. As long as the air cover is there, views that are not really defensible actually sound reasonable. After all, they are on the radio, in the church, on the TV, etc...

Even if the occasional thing ends up being easily seen as bunk, or is refuted in discussion, the idea that all of it can't be off base is yet another one of those "joe six pack" air cover things being reinforced each day.

The more you distort, the more votes you get, period. And look who is at the top of the chain: FOX, with the worst overall record of informing people daily and consistently.

And that brings me to things we see here, repeated every few weeks:

-there really were WMD's (any remotely plausable out, such as moved in trucks, whatever, keeps the dream alive)

-swift boaters actually told the truth

-Iraq is free / doing well / better off

-Bush beat the leftists two times

and it goes on and on and on.

Any out folks. If it's even remotely possible, then the dream is still alive.

-Gays are wrong and can be fixed

-Government really doesn't work and we can all relax when our wealthy best take care of us

-The economy is fine

-Iraq will be a success

Real soon now, the truth will come out, "THEY WILL LEARN A LESSON" and I'LL BE RIGHT, and THEY WILL BE WRONG, I TOLD YOU SO.

That's the cult. The only way to break it is to just put somebody in a room, deny them the echo chamber and just talk it all out, until every last bit is shown to be the crap it is, then wait a long time.

--even then, something they want really bad, like it being ok to hate gays or black people, for example, might just trump the simple truth, because it's easier to just buy the lie than it is to come to some level of acceptance for one's own personal issues.

That's what powers the GOP --or at least it's loyal, die hard 20-30 percent base.

"die hard 20-30 percent base."

I'm thinking by 2030 that base will finally die off (and rather easily at that -- helped by stresses from acute global warming.)

And that would be the second time in Earth's history where the Dinosaurs were rendered extinct by an environmental event.

Could there be an upside to Global warming after all?

"...something they want really bad, like it being ok to hate gays or black people.."

I gave you more credit than that. It shows how absolutely wrong your perception of conservatives truly is. Do you have ANY conservative friends? It also highlights how you've bought into the philosophy found only among a fringe of true 'conservative haters' who wish their political opponents to 'die off.' There's your real hate.

It's obvious who's truly intolerant and shame on you for buying into such garbage.

Herb

Herb,

Have you forgotten about your hero's "Southern Strategy"?

I have lots of conservative friends!

I have some significant conservative leanings as well. Used to be a registered Republican, remember?

None of them say the stuff you do. eg: "Democrat led Congress with 10 percent approval rating."

All of them are pretty unhappy with the state of affairs too. None of them have any real personal issues or axes to grind.

I have some neighbors that do say that stuff, and do have their axes to grind.

With most ordinary people, having a discussion about something has an impact. Say we've got the "there really were WMD's" bit on the table.

So, we talk about the 9/11 report, look at the crap the administration pulled (bogus pictures, etc...), and basically go through the known facts.

This ends up being, there were no WMD's.

A later discussion then does not involve that failed point, unless something new comes to the table, and then it's about rejudging that point, before using it to support other points.

Over time then, both parties can continue to talk about matters in a fairly sane way, not having to refute, what is otherwise noise, on a regular basis.

Now, some people, fall into the category I just mentioned above. I used "hating gay people" as just an example. Really, it's just some core issue that matters more than anything else.

You, yourself, have one of these! It's abortion. It does not matter how the law gets changed, only that it does, in fact, get changed. You've stated that here many, many times.

You also tend to continue to bring up the same crap over and over and over, despite it being fairly obvious it's not reality.

eg: "He defeated you leftists twice."

The fact is, he was selected by the Supreme Court. That's common knowledge, yet the "won twice" continues to be used as a supporting point for a lot of other stuff.

This is not like the normal discussion I mentioned above. And it's cult like too! I don't mean to slam you or anybody on this, but I do find it pretty bizzare.

Essentially, your position here has been, "whatever it takes to overturn Rowe". That post above about leveraging the air cover, repeating stuff, etc... all applies!

Crime is ok, war is ok, exploitation is ok, etc... so long as those court justices get appointed, it's all ok. This is the behavior I was posting about.

Forget the "hating gay people" part. It was just an example of an axe to grind, or personal issue. Focus on the behavior part of the post and you'll see what I mean.

Finally, conservative is not a bad thing, nor is progressive, green, etc... I've written over and over and over and over, that we are all more complex than these simple and broad labels account for. I mean it too.

But, like the other things that keep getting repeated, over and over and over, it just never quite gets there.

Really, it's a lot like that guy that can't learn anything new. Disease damaged the part of his brain responsible for new memories.

Each day is starting over. One can make a lot of progress, then it's gone after a time. This is why I wrote what I wrote.

We go around on some matters, reaching a point where things kind of get worked out. Then some time passes, and I think during that time a lot of air cover gets consumed, all is forgotten / confused / whatever, then out it comes again, like roaches.

Unless one just has at it and kills them all, they return rather quickly, leaving one right back at the start. That's how it feels a lot of the time.

Sorry. I still like you, but this is what it is. Since it all clicked, I posted about it, hoping to share where I ended up on the matter.

Shoot it down, if you like! It's all good, because that process leads to better and more accurate info and that's what I'm all about over the longer term.

And perception is reality too Herb. Doing this stuff has caused conservatives a lot of harm. Why? Because, like it or not, that really is the image the conservative GOP projects.

Of course, it's just not true for a lot of conservatives, but that really loud die hard 23 percent, have made just a few things the issue. They have defined the party and worked long and hard to get it there.

Everybody else went along and now here we are with a pretty UGLY looking GOP, good people lumped in with the bad.

(maybe they should have spoke up just a bit sooner to avoid this mess)

Nowhere does my post contain intolerance. It's really an expression of frustration with how futile some discussions really are and why.

That's rational.

I gotta say Herb, my experience is equally disturbing. Yes, I do have conservative friends. Quite a few. Many of them, admittedly, are older. But not all of them are. So it's kind of, you know, a waiting game for me.

But let me point this out to you;

Democrats and Republicans each have members that hate gays or black people. It's not some myth. So when you pretend to hold some high moral ground that members of your party are misunderstood and are not bigoted, it's laughable. Both parties have it.

A BIG difference is that SO often, it's Republicans that wish to bring it to the table under the umbrella of making it a law. You want everyone else to FEEL that way too. And because we don't, you call us Godless and immoral. That it going to get a reaction. And that reaction, in it's most healthy way available, is to call you out on it and keep pointing out that a law will not change how we feel about moral issues.

Republicans during this administration have gotten just about everything they want when it comes to moral issues. At least they have made it VERY clear what it is that they want. The problem is that it is always " Do what we say. Not what we do." Or it's always some additional power grab that many of us have just had enough of.

So when people say things like " They'll die off eventually," as harsh as that sounds, it's the most humane way of saying " These Republicans are so unwilling to compromise or let people live their OWN lives, and since we didn't think they'd be THIS successful in trying to obstruct people from doing so ( Nobody expected Bush [ Cheney or Rove too ] to be so inept that he would react to being called an idiot by upping the ante at every turn with uncomfortable, if not down right illegal, abuses of power ) that we just have to learn from this era of absolute ugliness and do what we can to not let it happen again." But as you can see, the current flock of Republican candidates still tow that party line, even in the face of disaster ( literal and figurative ) and are actually running on platform that smacks of Bush all over again. Why in the WORLD would you want that again? If you don't want that again, then say so. But when you deny the very real issues that Republicans are a VERY large part of that creates deep divisions wihtin our citizens, then you are, in a very literal sense, part of the problem and not the solution.

You think that Democrats are weak. And how does that manifest itself? It shows when you exercise your power and control in a way that you know can't be defeated. To say nothing of actually FIXING some issue. You create barrier after barrier and you wear that ability like a badge of honor. But you do it out of spite to exert revenge because you and Bush have been mocked because your leader is a fucking idiot.

The President of the United States is a fucking idiot.

I do not care if you carry water for Bush. You say that NOW. But before things went so obvously terrible, you supported almost ALL of his efforts. However misguided and wrong they were. He is still your hope incarnate for things you want for us as a whole. And until you distance yourself from his actions, thoughts, ideas, execution, abuses - YOU are the party he represents; Stubborn and prideful. Power hungry to a degree that has NEVER been seen in this country. EVER. Unfortunately " hypocrites " and " non-thinkers " applies too.

Each attempt to morally legislate has been met with resistance. Why is that? Because we are Godless? Man, Herb. When you look at the stuff you post around here, in the manner you do it - avoiding the parts of conversations that make a string point against your point, until the subject changes. THEN you'll talk again. Ignoring ( not really though - you see it and consciously decide to not address it because there really isn't a good answer ) the other stuff that makes you look bad. Among the MANY other things. When you do all that, are you really surprised that you don't attract support? You can't be. And I don't think you really want support. I think you are just fine with zero support as long as you have power. And your power over others does NOT come from God - as you like to claim. Your power comes from your party. Republicans. THAT is your vessel. You've got a President who actually believes that God told him to invade Iraq.

Do you really believe that God speaks to Bush like that and says things like that? Of course not. But you tolerate that kind of nut-job lie because it is still the only path you've got to get what you want: More power over others.

You've taught me MANY good things Herb. Many. But one not-good thing though; Trying to bring people together right now is futile. You and your party have cock-blocked everything you could when it came to money, power or control. You are a very " The proof is in the pudding " kind of guy, Herb. That's understandable. That's why when you say that Bush was elected TWICE, well, even I have to shake my head at that one. I can't believe it either sometimes. You're right. You won the battle. But your party has lost the war. You LOST support for your agendas. You LOST trust. You LOST my support when you couldn't produce anything good from all the things you claimed you HAD to have in order to make our country unified and safe. You smashed and grabbed everything you could in 7 LONG years. And what have you got to show me for stealing those things that were important to me?

More fear. More civil liberites flushed down the toilet. A President who is retarded.

But you did show me it all at face value. We were afraid this would happen. But you lied to us and said it wouldn't.

It did.

We think we deserve our turn at this game now. If Democrats blow it like Republicans have - then we deserve to be called on our bullshit too. If there are as few good results in the next administration ( Republican or Democrat ) this country will tear itself apart. And terrorists will just watch it all on CNN and won't have to lift a finger.

Whew. That was long.

Herb said>>>
it's obvious who's truly intolerant and shame on you for buying into such garbage.

Keep it up Herb and YOU EXTREMEIES are going to be 100% responsible for Hillary winning in the biggest landslide in Political history.
Keep it up!
I can move to Switzerland tomorrow if I have to but come November of 08' your going to want to to.
KEEP IT UP!

To wish someone dead based upon their political beliefs is not only wrong, it's sheer evil and totally unAmerican.

There's no excuse on this from either side, liberal or conservative. I want no part of it.

Herb

" To wish someone dead based upon their political beliefs is not only wrong, it's sheer evil and totally unAmerican. "

There are exceptions though, right?

When UNborn babies are in the mix.... KILL THE BASTARDS!!!!
Ooooooops....
I did it! Sorry!!!
Turned yet another thread into an abortion issue. Damn! I'm becoming just like Herb!
Could someone be so kind to pull the trigger now!

Like Herb wouldn't be dancing in the streets if Ruth Bader Ginsberg croaked tomorrow. Hypocrite.

You're wrong. Apparently unlike liberals on this board, I wish no ill on those with a different political view. Even with murderers, who I don't have a lot of love for such as Fidel Castro, if someone has done something illegal or wrong politically, go through legal or political systems to correct it. To frame my view as otherwise is simply untrue.

I wouldn't tolerate this 'wish you were dead' view from conservatives, and the fact that it's necessary to address it with liberals shows how low many democrats have sunk. It's one thing to brag up your own positions. But when one crosses so far over the line into wishing death upon others, it's no less than psychotic.

I can't believe you guys defend this stuff. Among the leftist fringe, if you can't present a cogent message, you want to kill the messenger.

Herb

" " To wish someone dead based upon their political beliefs is not only wrong, it's sheer evil and totally unAmerican. "


So there are no exceptions?

It's not a trap, btw Herb. But you are implying that it's just such an open and shut case. I wanted to know if that was an accurate understanding of how you feel;

No exceptions.

You can answer that Yes or No, if you'd like.

"...you are implying that it's just such an open and shut case."

Aside from war, or an armed attacker upon innocents, I'm trying to understand what part of 'not wishing others dead' is difficult. Are you wondering about terrorists? Even there, we're to use justifiable force and include a court trial, not random executions.

Don't like what someone does? Work within the system for change. Martin Luther King used civil disobedience, but the history books I've read show he did not wish people who did evil against him dead.

Throughout the miserable Clinton years, never once did I wish ill upon the then president. Did I want him to resign? Sure. But that's it.

If one is a war criminal, try them for war crimes. If one commits crimes against humanity, like Pol Pot, Stalin, or Castro, go after them for that. This shouldn't be a long thread.

Herb

Hey, I really appreciate that explanation. We agree.

No problem.

Herb

Unbelievable!

So, after all that conversation, we get focused on "wishing others dead"? ?!?

Once again, *anything* but actually dealing with some fundamental realities. Right on cue.

It's almost as if being able to make that kind of comment, which I didn't BTW, means doing so perfectly as to not allow an out.

If one is there, maybe it's simple bad form. Spelling error, or perhaps tired slang, then THANK GOD! We can TALK ABOUT THAT AND NOT FACE THE ACTUAL ISSUE; namely,

why continue to repeat mis-information every so often, as if one has to prove the entire body of differences, just to get a SINGLE FUCKING POINT ACROSS?

That's what my post was about. The cult thing, not this whole "wish they would die off" digression we are on right now.

Who cares really?

AS LONG AS NOBODY IS ACTING ON IT, it's just fantasy. Like my regular, "When is God calling Pat Robertson Home?" bit. Yeah, I think it's time.

Why even pretend to be above human in this? Hell, why even focus on this crap, when WE'VE GOT THE MIS-INFORMATION POSTED ON A REGULAR BASIS.

There are lots of points where they are just done. Cooked, nailed, whatever. Known useless.

Yet, they still appear if there is even the smallest of outs, no matter how implausible they may be.

Most normal people don't do this. They think, "oh yeah, I got my ass handed to me on that one, better make sure I can support it, or maybe that other guy is right." Something along those lines.

Forget this nice distraction Herb. Sometimes people wish other people would die. Happens. It's not the end of the world either. It is happening right now today, gonna happen tomorrow, and the next day, and the next.

Non issue.

Let's get back to the MIS-INFORMATION and CULT LIKE BEHAVIOR.

Let's just take one point, right here, right now.

There were NO WMD's. Can't we just say that one is done now? So all that stuff that depends on there actually being WMD's ends up kind of moot doesn't it?

"Sometimes people wish other people would die. Happens. It's not the end of the world either. It is happening right now today, gonna happen tomorrow, and the next day, and the next. Non issue."

Non issue? By giving such unhumane and uncivil behaviour a pass, your inexcusable prattle is unworthy of response.

Herb

See, there it is. "the out" THANK GOD THAT'S OVER. MIGHT ACTUALLY HAVE TO TALK ABOUT SOME STUFF IF WE CAN'T JUST MAKE THE WHOLE TOPIC SEEM FOUL.

So, now the entire issue is "not worthy of a response" because of this one critical issue? Same shit, different day Herb.

You are a flat out, bald faced, liar, if you claim to have never wished somebody would just die, or celebrated the death of some real baddie.

BTW: I didn't say it. Go ahead and look! You lumped it in, like you always do. Mixing stuff together, equating things not really equal, stir, shake, act indignant, then hope it all blows over, so you can get back to working the same "you just wait, you all are gonna learn a lesson" gig over and over again.

We get to think what we want here. Acting on it is a different story. But celebrating the death of an asshole is no crime. Hoping it happens is also no big crime.

I can think of a whole host of people who I wouldn't shed a tear for.

Herb:

Castro? Saddam? Bin Laden? And the classic - Hitler? Haven't or wouldn't wish them dead? When Osama was supposedly in our gun sights during the Clinton years, and Sandy Berger said "Don't kill him"* you support his decision?

(*from the ABC docu-fiction "Path to 9/11")

Monday, November 19, 2007 - 2:56 pm

Aside from war, or an armed attacker upon innocents, I'm trying to understand what part of 'not wishing others dead' is difficult.

Herb

Well, for the record, I do not wish you were dead Herb. Or even a vegetable.

I wish a hangnail upon you. And maybe some split ends on your hair.

And some humility on occasion.

What do you wish upon me?

I'll second that.

"Aside from war, or an armed attacker upon innocents, I'm trying to understand what part of 'not wishing others dead' is difficult."

Okay then...based on his own criteria, Herb's answer is:

Osama - wishing him dead
Hitler - wished him dead
Saddam - wished him dead
Castro - not wishing him dead

Just call me Press Secretary.

"What do you wish upon me?"

Chickenjuggler, I wish you a happy life, lots of refreshing sleep, plenty of good food, peace with God and Stella galore.

Herb

Edselehr, great, now we can refer to you when we can't get a straight answer out of the troll!

How dare you wish me refreshing sleep! I know what that is " code " for; More sleep = less posting.

Oh. Wait. That would be a GOOD thing.

But a happy life? Wellllll that's just insul...oh wait. That's a good thing too.

Ah HA! But good food! Are you slamming my cooking? Evil. Not nice.

God. Covered.

Stella...I wish me Stella too.

"...an armed attacker upon innocents..."

Last time I checked, Mr. Castro was indeed armed and definitely oppressing innocent Cuban people.

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/rm/19712.htm

Herb

(Sorry...my bad)

Mr. "Don't Fear the Reaper" would like to issue a correction:

Castro - wishing him dead too.


...and a Merry Christmas to all!

Sorry you see things that way, Edselehr.

I simply wish Mr. Castro would step down and free his innocent people. However, justice will be served at some point, for we will all be judged at the end of this life.

Ever hear of hating the sin and loving the sinner? It's especially difficult to do with a black-hearted murderer like Castro. But that's what we're supposed to TRY to do.

Herb

Then don't make me have to figure out what you are saying. Your vague blanket statements make it difficult to represent your position during these press conferences. So tell me, what should I say when people ask if Herb wishes for the death of anyone? Because your "aside from war" statement left some wiggle room; politically shrewd, but inconclusive.

If you're actually interested, I would suggest only in the defense of innocent life.

Herb

Herb>>Last time I checked, Mr. Castro was indeed armed and definitely oppressing innocent Cuban people.

So why don't we have diplomatic relations with them? Is it because of the Southern Florida GOP Cuban vote?

Could be, at least in part.

The guy is a murderous thug. I have no problem with slapping him on the wrist. Even though US foreign policy hasn't always been consistent on this, it should be and we shouldn't reward murderers like Cuba OR China with favoured trading status of any kind.

Both are examples of murderous commie dictatorships.

Herb

If John Kennedy hadn't lost his nerve, we would have been rid of Castro long ago.

Yeah, the Bay of Pigs was bungled badly.

Herb

And if Nixon wouldn't have been such a pussy we wouldn't have lost in Nam.

Ok. Now the gloves really come off.

Democrats got us INTO Vietnam and Mr. Nixon is the one who mined the harbours at Haiphong, AGAINST THE WISHES OF THE WIMPY DEMOCRATS. THANK YOU, HANOI JANE FONDA.

Don't get me started on this one, unless you actually want to contend with the facts.
Herbert Milhous Nixon IV

Nixon dropped the ball and LOST Man for us and because of that THOUSANDS of men and women are screwed up because of it. And DUHbya will end with the same fate in History because of Iraq.

WP'sE!

Nixon was a pussy!
So was Reagan!

I'm not talking about the Bay of Pigs, the Army had Special Forces in Cuba in 62-63 who's function was to eliminate fidel, the only thing that stopped them, after they were in position, and had the subject in a gunsight, was the White House (Kennedy) wouldn't give final permission.

As to Vietnam, Nixon won that war, he had a peace treaty in which N Vietnam guaranteed to remove its troops, it wasn't until he was impeached and the North Sent divisions South, that the Democratic Congress, prevented President ford from honoring the treaty.

ABORTION SHOULD BE LEGAL FOREVER!!!!

Castro for President!

Jane Fonda for Vice!!!

There you go.

Castro and Jane Fonda.
Trix's America-hating heroes.
Why not throw Brezhnev, Mao and that king of blackhearts, Stalin, in there too, pal.

Herb

Exactly what kind of vice do you have in mind for jane? For an older woman, she isn't bad looking, as long as she keeps her mouth shut, at least doesn't talk.

I have no animus toward Ms. Fonda other than her typical Hollywood 'blame America first' attitude.

Herb

If Ms Fonda didn't care about America, then why would she speak up? This "blame America first" crap is just a convenient dodge to write off someone's valid opinion that you disagree with.

I have lots of animosity against Hanoi Jane, someone that encouraged N Vietnamese Anti Aircraft gunners to shoot down US planes, WHo called American Airmen criminals, and that those captured "deserved what they got". Someone that literally gave aid and comfort to our enemies!

She spoke the truth and jokers like yourself are in denial.

Heroes like John McCain paid the price for the acts of Hanoi Jane. Mr. McCain spent 6 years in a north vietnamese hell-hole, courtesy of people like Ms. Fonda, who emboldened Mr. McCain's captors.

Anyone who says otherwise is in denial.

Herb

Whether or not Ms. Fonda even existed on this earth HAS NOTHING TO DO with John McCain spending time in a Vietnamese hell-hole. All this talk of "emboldening" the enemy is hogwash.

Actually its the truth, even the N vietnamese admit it, after tet, which was a very sound military defeat for the N Vietnamese, they were seriously thinking about quiting, until they started reading all the articles from the liberals in the US.

So what you're saying is that Jane Fonda is directly responsible for the jailing of John McCain, had she not existed on earth he would not have spent time in jail? Spare me.

It's wishful thinking and revisionist history to make the claim that military decisions are made according what "liberals in the US" are saying.

He would have spent less time, maybe none, because the war might have been over in early 67, before he was shot down.

Sorry, but to be frank, you're full of shit as usual.

Nwokie - man. You think that all your opinions are just truth all the time. Everything is a hypothetical scenario in your world. " What they should have done is this... " insert random thought or possibility that not even you yourself give any credibility to " and it would have turned out differently."

I don't know what you are compensating for every time you chime in with some random crap that gets you nowhere, but it's getting really old. State something and back it up with what happened instead of constantly giving shitty advice for the future.

if nwokies mom was never born there wouldn't have been a Vietnam war for okie to make stuff up about.

Think about that for a moment.

Herb said>>>
Heroes like John McCain paid the price for the acts of Hanoi Jane.

And Nixon was a pussy!

Ok, the gloves are REALLY coming off now.
Mr. Nixon served his country honourably as a veteran, and also went after the commie Alger Hiss. Mr. Nixon stood toe-to-toe against Brezhnev and China's evil commie leadership.

Mr. Nixon was flawed, but a great American.

Herb

Right on Herbster.

Herb: You should read Homer Hickam's (Rocket Boys) "The Ambassador's Son" for a fun look at Nixon in WWII.

I'll have to check that one out, especially if it's not too ham-fisted on the 37th president.

Herbert M.

Lilly livered Nixon was ham-fisted!

Better watch out, or I'll REALLY take the gloves off.

Herb

America hates Hillary Clinton and Co:

"Mrs Clinton might be the frontrunner in the polls, but almost everywhere we went people questioned her candidacy."

"While we found many people who hated Mrs Clinton, those who loved her were few and far between."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/11/24/wamerica124.xml& page=1

I'm sorry you have so much hate in your heart.
I pray for you.

Many people interviewed in 2004 said they hated George W Bush and company, and he managed to win re-election.

Let's look at who was interviewed for this partisan article:

-Marla Russ, a secretary and part-time policewoman at a football game in Weatherford, Oklahoma.

-We stopped at places such as Wooster, an Ohio town hit by the wave of house foreclosures, Hannibal on the Missouri banks of the Mississippi and El Dorado (pronounced with a "ray" rather than a "rah" in the middle), an oil-boom town in the Kansas flatlands of Middle America.

-We spoke to a megachurch minister in Washington state, new citizens in California, a cowboy doctor in Wyoming, a Kentucky country singer in Nashville and believers in UFOs in a dusty New Mexico town.

-A Vietnam veteran in Arizona and a Florida gun-shop owner were among those who made crude jokes about America "going to war every 30 days" under a female president.

-Micki Martinson, a housewife in Somerset, Pennsylvania.

-Although few people cite Obama's race as a negative factor, there are clearly worries about whether he is too exotic a creature for Middle America. Some openly speculated that he was a Muslim. (Fox news viewers)

-They all lie all the time," stated the Hertz attendant at the airport in Wichita, Kansas."

-Laura Dietz, a retiree in Phoenix, Arizona.

Basically, the author spent all their time in rural areas interviewing less educated, rural, old timers. Of course people like this would not like Hillary or any other Democrat. None of these people matter anyway, as they wouldn't be voting Democrat no matter who was running.

But it does matter, because many might decide to not vote at all, unless Hillary is running, then they will be voting early and often.

“Thanks to your democratic laws we will invade you; thanks to our religious laws, we will dominate you.” Islamic Cleric: Archbishop of Izmir

Like most religions, Islam in general, forbids lying. The Quran says, “Truly, Allah does not guide one who transgresses and lies.” Surah 40:28. In another authoritative book, called the Hadith, Mohammed was also quoted as saying the following: “Be honest because honesty leads to goodness, and goodness leads to Paradise. Beware of falsehood because it leads to immorality, and immorality leads to Hell.”

However, unlike most religions, within Islam there are certain provisions under which lying and deceiving is not simply tolerated, but actually encouraged. In his book “The spirit of Islam,” Afif A. Tabbarah writes in page 247, “Lying is not always bad, to be sure; there are times when telling a lie is more profitable and better for the general welfare, and for the settlement of conciliation among people, than telling the truth. “

Al-Takeyya

The Islamic principle of lying for the sake of Allah. Falsehoods told to prevent denigration of Islam, to protect oneself, or to promote the cause of Islam are sanctioned by the Qur'an, including lying under penalty of perjury in testimony before the United States Congress, lying or making distorted statements to the media such as claiming that Islam is a religion of peace, and deceiving fellow Muslims when the one lying has deemed them to be apostates. The word literally means to protect or guard against and conveys the principle that Muslims are permitted to lie as a preventative measure to protect themselves and Islam, especially in life or liberty threatening circumstances. It is important that the Muslim does not mean it in his heart, however. The concept of Al-Takeyya is based on the following verse in the Qu’ran:

Let not the believers take for friends or helpers unbelievers rather than believers; if any do that, in nothing will there be help from Allah, except by way of prevention that ye may guard yourselves from them. But Allah cautions you to remember Himself for the final goal is to Allah. Surah 3:28

Further, the concept of Al Takeyya permits behavior of a Muslim that is contrary to his faith if pretending to befriend infidels..."

http://pc540.blogspot.com/2005/06/does-islam-teach-that-its-ok-to-lie-in.html

WOW!
Herb's hate is astounding.....

Sorry.
The only haters here are Bush haters.

Herb

There are no Bush haters here. We've gone over this so many times it's just stupid.

A lot of people hate what he has done with the place. A lot of people think he is likely the worst possible leader we've had.

These things are not hating the man, just his deeds.

There is a difference, but somehow you continue to push this matter. Does it make you feel better somehow? Does it make it more possible to ignore the solid information and opinion, regularly posted here, to believe those who present a contradiction to you, to believe, "They are just Bush haters" and thus can be ignored?

What?

"These things are not hating the man, just his deeds...but somehow you continue to push this matter. Does it make you feel better somehow..."

The only ones relishing the denigration of our president are those slinging darts at the guy.

I find it an interesting irony how those who defended Mr. Clinton through his multiple mistakes, dishonesty and outright lies...are the very same ones taking Mr. Bush for far less.

Again, Mr. Bush has INCREASED our defense spending, not cut it like Mr. Clinton.

Mr. Bush has fought terror and INCREASED our surveillance and monitoring capabilities, not cut it and put up a wall between the agencies like Mr. Clinton's appointee, Jamie Gorelick.

The difference between the left and the right? Conservatives take terrorists at their word when they say they want to destroy western civilisation. With nearly 3,000 murdered on 9/11, the Spain and London rail attacks, plus plenty of other terrorist actions throughout the globe, democrats want to bury their heads in the sand. That's precisely what terrorists want. Don't be angry at republicans if they fight hard to prevent them from succeeding.

Herb

"...democrats want to bury their heads in the sand."

Gosh HerrB, you should really put your amazing Kreskin-like (you remember him, right?) mind-reading talents to use and hit the TV circuit: Just think! Tyra Banks, Geraldo, Jerry Springer, Pat Robertson, etc!

blah, blah, blah, zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

(B)lather. Rinse. Repeat.

Classic leftist inability to address the issue.

No facts, just attitude.

Prattle on.

Herb

Here's some facts for you from MK above.
Please read them (again?):

"There are no Bush haters here. We've gone over this so many times it's just stupid.

A lot of people hate what he has done with the place. A lot of people think he is likely the worst possible leader we've had.

These things are not hating the man, just his deeds.

There is a difference, but somehow you continue to push this matter. Does it make you feel better somehow?

Does it make it more possible to ignore the solid information and opinion, regularly posted here, to believe those who present a contradiction to you, to believe, "They are just Bush haters" and thus can be ignored?"

Pull your own head outta the sand or from where ever it's stuck and try to stop IGNORING, Herrbocrite!

I addressed them.
All you posted was a ham-fisted, dismissive missive.

Herb

Classic leftist inability to address the issue.

But when faced with FACT issues THE EXTREME RIGHT runs and hides just like Nixon did.

You didn't address them well enough to meet your burden Herb. You rarely do.

The dismissive stuff is a straight up, old school, human response to repeated failures to meet that burden. After a time, particularly with no quarter given --or rarely given, on your part, people tend to get jaded.

The conversation is totally not honest on your part. I don't mean lies. I mean it's not really two way. Every one of us here, has gotten spanked hard on something. Does not matter what it is, it's just happened.

Most of us tend to suck it up, deal with that, then move on. It's about learning something and finding out what is defensible and what just isn't.

You just don't do this, or if you do, it's on something that really doesn't matter.

Look at the "Bush Haters", or "socialist Hate / Blame America first" bit.

Over and over and over, we've gone through that. There are no Bush haters here, nor are there any America haters. In fact, most of us love our nation enough to talk about it in earnest!

So, why not drop it huh? It's over, you lose Herb. Have lost so many times I can't even count. Despite this, I'll bet we don't go two days without you rolling out one of those divisive and inflammatory comments, in some form or other, here yet again.

You'll do it with absolutely no support for it. It's not even remotely defensible! You know it, I know it, everybody here knows it.

So why do it then? Why must we deal with that again and again and again?

That's just nuts. If I didn't know any better, I would say you do it just to keep greater conversations from happening. You know, like maybe some people here find common ground, and begin to support some stuff that might actually have an impact?

Actually, I'm just gonna say it. I think you and a bunch of other people (the 23 percenters) do this just to keep exactly that from happening! It's a noise strategy --kind of like an air cover, general purpose dodge to keep the harder questions under the radar as much as is possible.

Kind of freaky actually.

When is the last time you posted up something good for us? And I don't mean the group, but just Americans in general? Like a good news story, warm fuzzy, maybe just something fun?

I like reading those things. I like reading them, even if they come from the GOP, like when Bush shot down the genetic profiling stuff that was gonna happen.

Dude hit it right on, protected Americans from something that could really start a nasty slippery slope with a lot of impact. Stopped it cold --and I'm happy he did it!

I posted that too.

So where are your, "hey guys, check this out!" posts that don't carry some agenda?

Please, reconsider doing crap this day after day after day. It's a big world out there, why not share some of it with us? I meant what I said on your thread Herb. You are an interesting person, with strong convictions. Clever too. Come on, just relax and be a bit more human, won't you?

It's not gonna threaten your faith, the abortion battle will still be there, and everybody wants to eliminate terror. Dip a toe in, the water is fine man!

"...divisive and inflammatory comments..."

It would be easier to give ground were I alone in making such comments. I'm not.

Another problem is your actually believing 23% of voters control the nation, particularly with a democrat-controlled congress.

#1. Mr. Bush, who is now a lame duck, won election to the highest office twice. Hand wring if you must, but since they're not even capable of removing him from office, at some point the left will be forced to actually deal with it. Either that, or continue to navel-gaze, whilst losing time and energy on their agenda. In a way, I hope the left continues to bang away backwards at Mr. Bush, since they'll have less time, energy and money looking forward to continue pushing their pro-abortion views.

#2. If you're going to quote 23%, I'll continue quoting the 11% approval of our democrat-controlled congress.

#3. If you're going to accuse others of not being 'totally honest,' be careful. There's plenty of marginal, hyper-partisan activity on both sides.

Herb

There's plenty of marginal, hyper-partisan activity on both sides.

Admission! Herb FINALLY tells the God's honest truth!!!!!!!

God's honest truth is right It isn't always easy to get liberals to have anything to do with God.

At least you spelled Him with a capital "G."

Bless you, my son.

Herb

But Bush didn't really "win" his office the second time, did he?

Do you really think people are still "banging" away backwards" at Bush? There's nothing anybody can do to make him look worse than what he does all by hisself. You yourself wrote "lame duck".

You are so far removed from reality, it's kind of like the movie 'Pleasantville' in reverse. Or is it just 'Back to the Future'?

"But Bush didn't really "win" his office the second time, did he?"

This is precisely what I'm saying...the scare america talking points. Earth to leftists: It's reality-Mr. Bush really is president and won twice.

Speaking of 'Back to the Future,' what are you going to do, reverse time for a 'do-over?'

It's this kind of detachment from reality that makes guys like Ralph Nader stronger and this kind of continuous, ham-fisted piling onto a lame-duck that's borderline psycho.

Like I said, part of me doesn't want the left to 'get it' whilst giving it a rest, for the more the left looks backwards, the more it will enable the pro-life side to gain even more momentum.

Look what happened whenever the adulterous perjurer Mr. Clinton was called on his myriad misdeeds. Voters loved the impeached scoundrel even more.

Herb

I'll take the adulterous perjurer over the lying AWOL idiot who has the blood of hundreds of thousands on his hands, any day of the week (and twice on Sundays, for the Sabbath!)

I reread this thread and realized that "agitprop" is on the no-fly list. I learned the word years ago in high school. There was a trio from New York called, Agitpop that I liked. In fact, I liked them enough to find out what a clever name they chose and it entered my vocabulary. Fascism sucks.

By the way, if we are to attribute political views to deities, for the record, Jesus was a liberal -- with a capital "J."

"Jesus was a liberal -- with a capital "J.""

Absolutely. You have me there.

Herb

"..lying AWOL idiot..."

Lying?
Iraq was sanctioned by the UN and by the democrats in congress. If you want to pout, pout about bad intel from sources like the CIA...deemed reliable, but not guaranteed.

AWOL?
Another red herring that's untrue.

Idiot?
What does that say about the democrats, who lost to him twice? Mr. Bush also got better grades than Mr. Gore or Kerry.

Spin on.

Herbert Milhous Nixon IV

You can be a God fearing, better grade student and still be a lousy President. That is a fact you can't change.

Sure.

Jimmy Carter was supposedly a nuclear engineer.

Herb

If we did an IQ test on Bush Jr. and Carter, even today Carter would blow Bush out of the water.

But once again you are using past Presidents to justify this Presidents actions. Pretty weak stuff.

Not at all.

But if you're going to use a standard for behaviour, comparing between presidents is appropriate.

Either that, or we compare with some truly fine people like Mother Teresa, Billy Graham and Luis Palau.

But then the left will scream and say we should leave faith out of it.

Herb

From Wiki:

"From a young age, Jimmy Carter showed a deep commitment to Christianity, serving as a Sunday School teacher throughout his life. Even as President, Carter prayed several times a day, and professed that Jesus Christ was the driving force in his life. Carter had been greatly influenced by a sermon he had heard as a young man, called, "If you were arrested for being a Christian, would there be enough evidence to convict you?""

Better put him on your list of admirable people, Herb.

Herb...
Let's see what DUHbya does AFTER he's kicked out of office.... Do you really thing that DUHbya will be the GIVING person that Carter is now??? Looks like Carter might get to heaven and ol' DUHbya WONT. How does DUHbya go before God and admit to ALL THE KILLING he's given the green light to? That get's him a pass into heaven?? DON'T THINK SO! If it does then Charles Manson and Hitler should be in heaven also.....

"Better put him on your list of admirable people, Herb."

There are some very fine things about Mr. Carter which I admire. However, his penchant for far-left 'blame America first' causes and anti-Semitic rantings of late are a serious cause for concern. I don't dislike the man, but I do dislike his mediocre [I'm being kind] presidential legacy. He shouldn't have been a politician. Given his terrific work for Habitat for Humanity, Mr. Carter probably would have been a fine carpenter, like my Jewish Boss.

The Herbster

However, his penchant for far-left 'blame America first' causes and anti-Semitic rantings of late are a serious cause for concern.

That's how YOU see it. The REST of America see's it or at least 70% of AMERICA see's it as BLAME DUHbya and CO. FIRST! That's where YOU get confused. Remember that and you'll be a better person for it.

You can cut Mr. Carter slack for his anti-Semitic comments. Several of his aides and employees have resigned. By turning a blind eye to such behaviour, you're in the minority. Although by building those houses for the needy, he's done far more for people than Mr. Gore.

Herbert M.

There are no "Blame America First" people.

Really, what is happening is people are blaming the Bush administration for their very poor leadership.

The administration is NOT AMERICA!

Same crap, different day.

The statement, "far-left blame America first" is simply not defensible, so why continue to use it?

At least 'anti-Semitic' is debatable! We can have a discussion on that and actually get somewhere meaningful. Is he really anti, yes, no, sometimes? Does that bias impact his overall worth? Etc...

Saying, he has a preference for "far-left blame America first" and that being a concern is just bunk.

Look at Mr. Carter's record.

He's bashing the US all day long.

That's blame America first.

Herb

"I don't dislike the man, but I do dislike his mediocre [I'm being kind] presidential legacy."

Ah, so you are not a "Carter Hater". You just dislike his actions and policies. Got it.

Naw, the guy's probably essentially a decent egg.
The anti-semitic stuff makes me wonder if he's got a screw loose, though.

Herb

Define "Bash America" and "Anti-Semetic" as it pertains to Mr. Carter.
Provide quotes if you can.

Let's start here:

http://www.adl.org/israel/carter_book_review.asp

Provide quote, then the link please.

Agreed. One thing at a time. Pick one, put your support for it out there, and let's talk about that one.

LOL@Ed

Carter speaks the truth about Israel.

And as far as comparing Bush to past presidents, it's a pretty easy comparison: Bush is the worst ever, therefore, he's in a league all by himself.

Mr. Carter apparently stated there were 'too many Jews' on a holocaust surivors board:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/staticarticles/article53954.html

"Mr. Carter apparently stated there were 'too many Jews' on a holocaust surivors board"

That's Anti-Semetic?

C'mon!
Put up or shut up!

C'mon, yourself.

What if someone said there were too many African-Americans on a slavery history board?

Herb

Bullshit!
You're changing the subject!

Provide a quote that proves Mr. Carter to be Anti-Semetic.

Not he "apparently said".

Also still waiting on the "bashing the America" quote.

On Edit...

BTW.

Quotes have these little things ["] at the beginning and end.

Jimmy Carter has spent more time in Israel than any President in our history. He has been involved in regional politics -- as a negotiator, observer, and elder statesman -- since he was elected in 1976. His book about the current crisis was labeled as anti-Semitic by people who support the occupation.

If we were to point out a President as an example of an anti-Semite, these articles would shed a bit of light on one in particular.

What President Nixon's tapes reveal of his private views on the Jews.

http://www.fpp.co.uk/History/antisemitism/Nixon_onJews.html

Richard Nixon, Unedited

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9802E3DE1439F93AA25753C1A96F95826 0

Nixon and the Jews. Again.

http://www.slate.com/id/2063030/

Okay I get to play Herb.

Nixon was flawed I give you that. But whilst Carter and the rest of the leftists bash America, Nixon was strong in foreign policy with China thus bringing an end to America's involvement in Vietnam.

He was known as tricky Dick.

Yes, he was flawed, perhaps tragically so.

Kind of like Samson, Mr. Nixon was so great, yet so human.

Herb

Sort of like Dick "oops, I thought you were a bird" Cheney, hmm?

LOL @ Chris -- wow, you even looked like him saying it.

I bet you make a mean ham-fist sandwich. :0)

Herb,

On Tuesday November 27th at 9:50 AM
You made the following statement:

"There are some very fine things about Mr. Carter which I admire. However, his penchant for far-left 'blame America first' causes and anti-Semitic rantings of late are a serious cause for concern."

At 11:50 AM you stated:

He's bashing the US all day long.


Despite requests that you backup these assertions with fact, you have so far not done so.

I request that you do one of two things:

1. Provide quotes directly attributable to Mr. Carter that demonstrate that he "Bashes America" and is "Anti-Semetic".

or

2. Appologize for making false, and defamitory statements.

In doing so please remember the 9th Commandment:
You shall not bear false witness against your neighbour.


Ladies and Gentlemen of the Forum,

I repectfully request that you hold Herb to this burden by refraining from engaging with him until this burden is met.
And that you help in policing others who "take bait".
Do so by linking to this post.

Thanks

Link:

../2186/302256.html"#f7f7f7" align=left> Author: Missing_kskd
Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 8:01 am

Done!

...and since there won't be a whole lot of conversation on this thread, unless we see some quotes or some acceptance, here's an excellent collection of middle America photos, from times gone by.

http://www.squareamerica.com/


../2186/302256.html"#f7f7f7" align=left> Author: Herb
Wednesday, November 28, 2007 - 8:44 am

"Former U.S. president Jimmy Carter has recently come under much criticism for his anti-Semitic writings and anti-Semitic comments. In his book, "Palestine Peace Not Apartheid", Carter endorsed Islamic terrorism against Israel as a tactic to achieve political ends. The sentiment was widely criticized by people across the political spectrum. In early 2007, it was revealed that Carter once complained there were "too many Jews" on the U.S. government's Holocaust Memorial Council. The council's former executive director, Monroe Freedman, also revealed that a noted Holocaust scholar who was a Presbyterian Christian was rejected from the council's board by Carter because the scholar's name "sounded too Jewish."
http://www.conservapedia.com/Anti-Semitic

"Fourteen of the Carter Center advisory group's 200 members resigned on Thursday, saying they were "deeply troubled" by the book and public comments by Carter, who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2002 for helping mediate global conflicts."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/812845.html

"Jimmy Carter's book and especially his suggestion that he is under attack by a powerful Jewish lobby is candy for white supremacists and the Arab media, who exploit it to perpetuate conspiracy theories about evil and controlling Jews," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "While we know President Carter never intended this kind of reaction, it shows how his use of loaded terms and classic stereotypes of Jewish power have created a sensation among anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers the world over. President Carter's embrace of rhetoric frequently used in extremist circles has had the unintended consequence of encouraging anti-Semitic extremists to exploit it and run with it," added Mr. Foxman."
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/4955_13.htm

"Carter has repeatedly fallen back -- possibly unconsciously -- on traditional anti-Semitic canards. In the Los Angeles Times last month, he declared it"politically suicide" for a politician to advocate a "balanced position" on the crisis. On Al-Jazeera TV, he dismissed the critique of his book by declaring that "most of the condemnations of my book came from Jewish-American organizations." Jeffrey Goldberg, who lambasted the book in The Post last month, writes for the New Yorker. Ethan Bronner, who in the New York Times called the book "a distortion," is the Times' deputy foreign editor. Slate's Michael Kinsley declared it "moronic." Dennis Ross, who was chief negotiator on the conflict in the administrations of George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton, described the book as a rewriting and misrepresentation of history. Alan Dershowitz teaches at Harvard and Ken Stein at Emory. Both have criticized the book. Because of the book's inaccuracies and imbalance and Carter's subsequent behavior, 14 members of the Carter Center's Board of Councilors have resigned -- many in anguish because they so respect Carter's other work. All are Jews. Does that invalidate their criticism -- and mine -- or render us representatives of Jewish organizations?"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/19/AR2007011901541. html

Who's the one bearing false witness?

Herb

Herb,

I don't have time to go over these right now, but I promise I will.

But at first blush, all I see are interpretations made by others.

I don't see anywhere (yet) where Carter is quoted either bashing the U. S., or being Anti-semetic.

And I don't think the burden should be on me (us) to dig for them.

Point is Carter has done MORE IN AMERICA since leaving office than BOTH Bush Presidents COMBINED and probably FOREVER.
END of discussion....

"I don't see anywhere (yet) where Carter is quoted either bashing the U. S., or being Anti-semetic."

Like the racism of David Duke, it's not always blindingly obvious. Look, the guy was president. He knows how to couch terms to get his underlying point across, but not be so blatant, so that he can try to wiggle out of being called on it. Do you actually believe that 14 of his employees resigned en masse if he hadn't stepped over the line?
And I have no personal animus toward the guy. God bless him for his work with Habitat for Humanity. He was just a mediocre [that's being charitable] president.

The closest republican I could compare him with is Gerald Ford. While I disagree with some of Mr. Ford's positions, I have a fondness for him for a variety of reasons, including his affable nature, his sense of humour whilst bumbling around and falling down, and of course pardoning Mr. Nixon.

But since Mr. Carter clearly leans so hard against Israel, it's a stretch to presume that Mr. Carter would be accepted an objective broker for peace in that region.

As an analogy, even though I desire any possible forward motion toward the pro-life cause, I wouldn't be one to broker compromises on abortion.

Herb

He was just a mediocre [that's being charitable] president.

Same goes for Bush I and DUHbya.... What's your point...

1. "Former U.S. president Jimmy Carter has recently come under much criticism for his anti-Semitic writings and anti-Semitic comments. In his book, "Palestine Peace Not Apartheid", Carter endorsed Islamic terrorism against Israel as a tactic to achieve political ends. The sentiment was widely criticized by people across the political spectrum. In early 2007, it was revealed that Carter once complained there were "too many Jews" on the U.S. government's Holocaust Memorial Council. The council's former executive director, Monroe Freedman, also revealed that a noted Holocaust scholar who was a Presbyterian Christian was rejected from the council's board by Carter because the scholar's name "sounded too Jewish."
http://www.conservapedia.com/Anti-Semitic

On Jimmy Carter's supposed endorsement of Islamic terrorism, I could find no quote attributable that would indicate that. I saw a lot of Hyperbole from many pundants, but none that I saw referenced a quote from his book.

Concerning the Holocaust Memorial Council, it simply appears that Carter was trying to achive a balance on the Council, so as not to give Holocaust deniers cause for complaint. (I don't nessisarilly agree with this, but that appears to be what his attackers have siezed upon).

Monoroe Freedman has made the talk show circuit with this claim, but oddly enough has never produced the "memo" he talks about.

Sounds vaguely Swiftboaty to me.

2. "Fourteen of the Carter Center advisory group's 200 members resigned on Thursday, saying they were "deeply troubled" by the book and public comments by Carter, who won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2002 for helping mediate global conflicts."
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/812845.html

While there was certainly disappointment and disagreement among some of the Carter Center groups members, there's nothing here to support a claim of Anti-Semitism.

3. "Jimmy Carter's book and especially his suggestion that he is under attack by a powerful Jewish lobby Is this untrue? is candy for white supremacists and the Arab media, who exploit it to perpetuate conspiracy theories about evil and controlling Jews," said Abraham H. Foxman, ADL National Director. "While we know President Carter never intended this kind of reaction, it shows how his use of loaded terms and classic stereotypes of Jewish power have created a sensation among anti-Semites and Holocaust deniers the world over. President Carter's embrace of rhetoric frequently used in extremist circles has had the unintended consequence of encouraging anti-Semitic extremists to exploit it and run with it," added Mr. Foxman."
http://www.adl.org/PresRele/ASInt_13/4955_13.htm

Again, nothing supports an accusation that Carter is Anti-semetic.
In fact, they admit his choice of words were "unintended".

4."Carter has repeatedly fallen back -- possibly unconsciously -- on traditional anti-Semitic canards. In the Los Angeles Times last month, he declared it"politically suicide" for a politician to advocate a "balanced position" on the crisis. On Al-Jazeera TV, he dismissed the critique of his book by declaring that "most of the condemnations of my book came from Jewish-American organizations." Jeffrey Goldberg, who lambasted the book in The Post last month, writes for the New Yorker. Ethan Bronner, who in the New York Times called the book "a distortion," is the Times' deputy foreign editor. Slate's Michael Kinsley declared it "moronic." Dennis Ross, who was chief negotiator on the conflict in the administrations of George H.W. Bush and Bill Clinton, described the book as a rewriting and misrepresentation of history. Alan Dershowitz teaches at Harvard and Ken Stein at Emory. Both have criticized the book. Because of the book's inaccuracies and imbalance and Carter's subsequent behavior, 14 members of the Carter Center's Board of Councilors have resigned -- many in anguish because they so respect Carter's other work. All are Jews. Does that invalidate their criticism -- and mine -- or render us representatives of Jewish organizations?"
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/19/AR2007011901541. html

Again, all opinion and rhetoric.
Sure a lot of people both reputable (Dennis Ross) and disreputable (Alan Dershowitz) have a problem with what Carter said in his book. Do you disagree that there is a "powerfiul Jewish lobby" & that they would be naturally upset with views that do not agree with their own?

Sorry, but the only thing I see here is that any consideration to a balanced view of Israeli/Palestinian solution (while not condoning terror) are labeled as "Anti-Semetic" as a tool to fuel hate as a means to an end.

You've got nothing.
And you have not even touched on the "Bash America" BS.

I don't expect this to be particularly troublesome to you, but I'm going back on "Herb Ignore".
You have nothing of value to contribute.
Just empty, inflammatory rhetoric in a sad attempt for attention.

Were I so hyper-partisan, I too would run from the room with my hands over my ears over a view I didn't like.

You're selectively choosing to ignore that 14 of Jimmy Carter's employees...who know him better than you or I...RESIGNED as a result what they insist were his anti-semitic actions.

I'm not Jewish, but prefer to trust those who are in their view of the situation. Why would they lie?

Like I say, I have no ill will toward the guy. He's done some good things, but he wasn't a stellar president by most accounts.

I wish you could show me that Mr. Carter isn't anti-Semitic. You haven't.

Herb

I prefer to trust the other 186 employees WHO DIDN'T RESIGN. Sounds to me like those 14 that quit are extremists, just like you.

"I wish you could show me Mr. Carter isn't anti-Semitic. You haven't. "

Otherwise known as a logical fallacy. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Negative_proof

C'mon people, aren't you tired of the Herb game yet? I'm really close to joining Skeptical's "Ignore the Troll" club. Just Let It Go.

For all the talk liberals give about 'free speech,' like the aclu's push to legalise the most vile forms of pornography, just try to present an opposing view at variance from their PC slant and they can't help themselves but try to shut it down.

Herb

Rant away, Herb. I'm actually asking your responders to can it. They are the ones keeping this merry-go-round spinning.

As for you, asking you to stop being a contrarian would be like asking you to stop breathing - you couldn't do it even if you wanted to.

Aw, I don't know about that.

I do try to be fair and balanced whenever possible...and I probably consider both sides about as much as many democrats on this board. Which, come to think of it, is not that often.

Touche', Edselehr.

Herb

You're selectively choosing to ignore that 14 of Jimmy Carter's employees...who know him better than you or I...RESIGNED as a result what they insist were his anti-semitic actions.

And some of Nixon's staff went to jail... What's your point???

I'm there, barring something new brought to the table.

Let the record show that Trixter brought up Mr. Nixon, not Ol' Herb.

O. Herb

I bring up abortion too!
:P

If you guys don't stop, I'll be bringing up lunch.

The troll is on a ventilator because he found out breathing naturally is democratic.