http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21257498/

MAnn Coulter inserts foot in mouth once again!

Conservative author Ann Coulter finds herself in the middle of a firestorm once again after remarks on a CNBC television show in which she said Jews need "to be perfected" and suggested the nation would be better off if it were all-Christian.

Appearing on "The Big Idea" with host Donny Deutsch on Monday, she said Christians were tolerant of racial diversity but that it "would be a lot easier" for Jews if they were to become Christians.

Deutsch, who described himself as a practicing Jew on the show, was clearly dismayed by the remarks, which he called "hateful" and "antisemitic," according to a transcript published on the Web by Editor and Publisher.

She does it for effect. Therefore she should be give a pass on all things like this. Oh oh, and it will come out soon that she was taken out of context - even though the context probably makes it even worse. Then it will come out that she was just maiking a joke and the people who don't realize it, even though she was given numerous opportunities to confirm whether or not she was making a joke - and chose not to, but people who don't laugh at her humor should lighten up. Even though she isn't kidding about anything. She won't apologize for anything. Then she will be paraded around Fox News and CNN for a month or so. Because she loves parades featuring her as The Grand Pubah. Then she will unhinge her jaw and swallow Bill O Reilly whole.

Then somoene will try and kill her for just making things worse in a time when she doesn't care about any need to even TRY to make something better.

Then she'll become a martyr and nobody will attend her funeral for fear of political retrobution.

...wait for it...

What is wrong with her statement, she didnt say Jews should become Christians, she just said it would be easier for them, if they did.

It would be easier for blacks if they could become white.

Can anyone say, with a straight face, life is easier being a Jew, or black?

Well, the host of the show, who is a Jew, didn't seem to like her comments.

So, just because it annoys one person or one million, the statement was correct.

One of the reasons I like Ms Coultre, is because she doesnt try to be politically correct. And most of her statements are factual correct.

If you go around saying only things people like, your going to be a very boring person.

She does it to gain attention and in this case, there will be a number of Jews who will help propel her onward to even more fame and book sales.

Nwokie, people like Ann Coulter could claim dogshit tastes good, and you'd defend it. You're a real piece of work.

Again, attacking the messanger and not the message, what did she say that was wrong?


You could make the same statement about gays, if they wern't gay, their life would be easier.

If short, fat old guys, wern't short, fat and old their lives would be easier.

" What is wrong with her statement, she didnt say Jews should become Christians, she just said it would be easier for them, if they did. "

Easier for them to do what, exactly?

To become christians, or Muslums for that matter, or even athiests. They would have easier lives, but they stick with their beliefs.

Literally millions of Jews have died for their beliefs.

What a ridiculous concept, that someone should change because being homogenous makes life easier.

1. Life still has plenty of problems whether you're in the majority or not.

2. If you're in the majority, you probably don't really know what it's like being in the minority.

3. If you are a member of a minority group, and being in that community makes your life worthwhile and gives your life meaning in a way you can't imagine giving up, why the hell would you want to be in the majority? Because you give up something intrinsic to you, but ... Life is Easier?

There are things more important than an easy life. Like, a worthwhile life. A productive life. A spiritual life. A bold life. And so on.

OK, someone else want a turn in the pulpit?

Look, she also said that Jews need to be perfected and that our nation would be better if it were all Christians. She's basically saying Jews are second class citizens, otherwise, why would they need to be "perfected"??

"It would be easier for blacks if they could become white."

Nwokie, you now show your true bigoted colors.

And under your theory, life would be better for all of us if we were one color and one religion.

So do you want to be tan and Muslim.

At least I remember why God toppled the Tower of Babel.

I love Ann Coulter, even though she holds back a tad more than I'd like.

Herb

Read what I said, I didnt say it should happen, I said it would be easier.

In certain parts of the world it is easier to be tanned and Muslim, I didnt say people should want to do it, just a statement of fact.

"Wizard of Id" artist Johnny Hart got in trouble for his thoughts regarding faith, too.

Great minds think alike.

http://fsbcsl2.org/pcpast/bc2.gif

The Gospel is sometimes seen as offensive, yet it is the Gospel truth.

Herb

I still like that God made us different, from our looks to our beliefs.

I guess Nowkie and Herb would want us to bring back Hitler and his "pure" race, since it would be easier to be a Nazi that to be black or Jewish.

Herb, I like you, but man do you scare me now.

I think Ann Coulter sucks, but I actually don't have a problem with her opening up her big mouth, as it shows the hypocrisy of the religious right. She does her side a dis-service everytime she says crap like this.

My problem is with the word "easier."

Speaking for myself, I'm a northwestern guy in a deep Southern state. It might be easier here for me if I did the Southern kabuki dance, where you acted all friendly towards people but don't mean it. But that's not me, and I can't imagine acting that way and still being me.

So for something more difficult ... if someone is African-American or gay or Jewish or some other minority, for them to be White or straight or Christian would be easier ... but then, they wouldn't be the same person any more. Meaning the whole question is moot.

I didnt say that, I just said it would be easier, people shouldnt always take the easiest way. You have to make a value judgement, sometimews the easy way is the right way, and sometimes its not.

I used to tell recruits, there is an easy way and a hard way to get through basic training, truste me, they are better off to do it the easy way, which is to do what I say, when I say it.

"...I guess Nowkie and Herb would want us to bring back Hitler and his "pure" race..."

Radioblogman. Go over to Europe and walk among the thousands of American graves in any Allied cemetery. Almost every one of them is marked with a cross. Many, many Christians have died to defend the Jewish people. Believing Christians are among the best friends of Israel and the Jewish people.

Please realize that practicing Christians wish only good for the Jewish people, whether they recognize Christ as Saviour or not. We simply believe the Gospels. Besides, my boss is a Jewish carpenter.

Herb

And on goes the divisiveness that religion fosters.

It would be easier for CHRISTIANS to not have to deal with them being Jewish. Seems to me, since she is speaking for so many, that Christians would have an easier time if they weren't Jewish. Why should a Jew have to convert?

It would be easier for Christians of THEY converted to Judiasm. Right? Sure it would. Oh but we are a nation founded on Christian beliefs, right? So what? Does that trump " Freedom of Religion " in this case? No. Nothing does.

It would not be easier for Jews if they became Christians. It would be easier for Christians if Jews converted. Jews don't have a problem being Jewish. Christians do.

"Why should a Jew have to convert?"

You asked the question.
Try John 3:16 for starters.

Herb

I'll leave John 3:16 to the dipshits at sporting events to try.

Besides, it's all fiction anyway, so who really cares what John thinks?

Herb, those crosses do not necessarily mean the dead were Christians, though I would assume most were. The cross is just a way to mark the grave, unless it was known the dead soldier was Jewish.

Thats why we have dog tags, they indicate name, relegion and blood type and serial nuber.

"Herb, those crosses do not necessarily mean the dead were Christians, though I would assume most were."

Most indeed were Christian. Not all, but most. That is my point.

Many, many Christians have died for Jews.
The King of the Jews died for us all.

Herb

And don't forget many Jews and athiests, Muslims, Buddists and Druids, etc., have died for this Christian nation.

And they all shared one thing in common. The red blood to fall on the fields of battle.

So, I say, send Coulter to Iraq, where her lily white ass will be protected by soldiers of all the above faiths serving under our flag.

" "Why should a Jew have to convert?"

You asked the question.
Try John 3:16 for starters."

Yes. But they are not Christians. Would you follow someone who can quote you something they believe, but you don't?

So back to the point, and it's not semantics, why would it be easier to a Jew to convert? Easier how? How would that manifest itself in a converted Jew's life in America?

Amazing wasn't long ago the Rev Sharpton called the Jewish religion, a "gutter religion", the conservatives jumped all over that demanding an apology, the libs just stood by.

Ms Colter makes a simple statement that is true, the Jewish religion is a difficult one. and the libs are all over her.

Ann Coulter has a new book out so she says outrageous things to get noticed. Ann is not agains Jews, unless of course they are liberal. The best thing to do is discuss something else as she is a waste of time.

Funny thing Nwokie, my Jewish friends don't seem to think it is hard being Jewish. they just think it is harder for me to be Christian with the takeover by you Neocons.

It would be easier for converted Jew to do what?

Eat a ham sandwich?

It seems Coulter has good company.

Hashemi Rafsanjani, former Iranian president and current Chairman of the Assembly of Experts, said Friday that Hitler’s treatment of Jewish people in Europe was due in part to their being “a pain in the neck.”

Well, you've got me there.

I'm convinced now.

"Amazing wasn't long ago the Rev Sharpton called the Jewish religion, a "gutter religion", the conservatives jumped all over that demanding an apology, the libs just stood by."

I didn't. In fact, we talk about it now more if you'd like, Nwokie. Just for the sake of, you know, avoiding your amazement. Perhaps bring it down a notch to merely surprised. Then as we talk about it more, we'll get to see you only being open-minded to the fact that it is a wholly disagreeabe and an opinion that is based on something other than a fact.

You start.

Maybe you could start by showing me where Sharpton said the Jewish religion " a gutter religion."

This is inscribed on the gravestone of a very famous and popular conservative woman:

"Even when people can't speak your language, they can tell if you have love in your heart."

A pioneer who followed in the footsteps of Eleanor Roosevelt, Thelma Catherine Ryan loved the United States. Once in the spotlight, she made no apologies for who she was, saying, "I am who I am and I will continue to be." She was a lot of things to different people, but never a simpleminded hater.

Nothing like that could ever be said of the hateful Coulter. If Ann is the face of neo-conservative women, it makes perfect sense that there is so much Bojangling in the men's room.

Republican women really went downhill after Pat Nixon.

Why is it if someone says anything about Jews or the Jewish religion, everyone goes ballistic and are anti-semites or worse. But, numerous persons on this forum and elsewhere bad mouth Christianity in all sorts of ways including calling it a fairy tale and they get by with it without a whimper. More double standard, the bulwark of liberalism.

Touche, Deane. But it would be an inconvenient truth for liberals to fess up to their duplicitous ways.

"...The Rev Sharpton called the Jewish religion, a "gutter religion""

Actually, it was supposedly Louis Farrakhan. From the below link:

'For decades, he's been a close ally of Nation of Islam leader Louis Farrakhan, who has referred to Jews as "bloodsuckers" and Judaism as a 'gutter religion.'

http://www.nlpc.org/view.asp?action=viewArticle&aid=1989

Herb

That's hard to disagree with Deane. I honestly should have been more vocal when Christianity is mocked. It did bother me each time I saw it. And why didn't I say anything? Because I didn't want to swallow some insignificant pride and admit the genuine double standard. Heck, I probably contributed to it - either by directly saying something or not calling someone out about it.

I will change that starting now.

Or at least I will try very hard. The " two wrongs don't make a right " thing is something I try and avoid. I failed miserably in your example.

I'm sorry. I'm glad you pointed it out.

Judaism is practiced by Jews. As a rule, Semites follow either God or Mohamed. Race plays a role in both religions although people of other backgrounds are welcome.

Christianity is no longer a race based religion. When it was the tool of empires, it was often touted as the easy way rather than the true way when presented to the indigenous peoples.

What the ignorant and ignoble Coulter is essentially saying is that the Mayans would have an easier time being Spaniards. An old line from a brutal time, but certainly in character.

Attacks based on faith, race or on any other personal level are her bread and butter.

Sorry - I'm a little late to the party, folks.

Paraphrased, Coulter said:

"it 'would be a lot easier' for Jews if they were to become Christians."

Some of you have touched on some of these areas already, but let's look a little closer.

1) What is hard about being Jewish?

I don't believe Jews have many conflicts with other Jews. Being Jewish becomes hard when they interact with those of other faiths - Christians mostly. And why is this? Because they experience varying forms of persecution and hardship during these interactions; discrimination, bias, segregation, sometimes genocide. Even Coulter admits in her comment it is hard to be a Jew.

2) Why do Jews receive this kind of treatment from others?

Perhaps because they do 'bad things' in the name of Judaism. In short, Judaism is a 'bad' religion and those that practice it should be discriminated against, etc. If Coulter agrees with this, and her comment comes from her belief that it it a 'bad' relgion, and Jews would be better if they abandoned their 'bad' ways...is this not a condemnation of Judaism and those that practice it? Isn't this Anti-semitism?

But I think the more accepted view is that Judaism is not a 'bad' religion, and that Jews are not 'bad' people. So, why would it be hard to be a Jew? Coulter must be referring to the persecution that is happening to Jews *despite* their religion being no better or worse than any other major religion. Therefore, they are receiving persecution unjustly.

3) Who is to blame for their persecution?

Can the Jews be responsible for their own persecution if they are not 'bad' for being Jews? I think not. So,the persecutors are to blame. And who are they? It must be someone else - based on Coulter's statement, it sounds like she thinks it is Christians.


4) Who is responsible for ending the conflicts between Jews and Christians?

Coulter only offers one solution - the Jews must change their behavior to end the conflict. But if Jewish beliefs are not bad, then anyone who persecutes for them for their beliefs cannot be good. So, those that do the persecuting are the bad ones. Shouldn't they be the ones to modify their behavior, to "change"? Not according to Coulter. The ones being persecuted should do the changing. That's unfair to Jews, and that could be considered a kind of anti-semitism.

Summary:

EITHER: Coulter thinks Judaism is bad, and they should become Christian (a good religion) to be better and to end the conflicts between the two groups. That is anti-semitism.

OR: Judaism is neither better or worse than Christianity, but things are not easy for Jews due to persecution of the minority religion by the majority religion (Christianity). This is wrong behavior by Christians. Coulter's solution to this inequity is to have the persecuted abandon their beliefs and become like the persecutors. This also is anti-semitism.

There is no way to get around the fact that Coulter is biased against Jews; an Anti-Semite.

It would be a lot easier for Americans if they were to become blind Bush followers.

It would be a lot easier for atheists if they became regular contributors to Oral Roberts University.


Ignorant idiots some of you are -- there's no other way around it.

"Being Jewish becomes hard when they interact with those of other faiths - Christians mostly."

That seems to imply that Christians are not friends to Jews, which would in general, be inaccurate. Israel has no greater friend than the United States, a largely Christian country.

And look at the abundance of successful Jews throughout our nation. Jews are leaders in so many fields, and very well-represented as doing tremendous work in medicine, law and business, just to name a few.

Overall, Jews have blessed America [and in fact, have also blessed the world...witness the Salk and Sabin vaccines for Polio, as but one example] and America has been a blessing to the Jews, if for no other reasons than fighting Hitler, in fighting to restore Israel in 1948, and by currently helping Israel to defend herself amid the bloodthirsty legions who wish to destroy her.

"I will bless those who bless you [the Jewish people], and whoever curses you I will curse; and all peoples on earth will be blessed through you." Genesis 12:3

Herb

Herb: "I love Ann Coulter, even though she holds back a tad more than I'd like. "

Coulter: "We just want Jews to be perfected, as they say."

Coulter says Jews are imperfect. I assume you agree, Herb.

Q: "We should just throw Judaism away and we should all be Christians?" Coulter: "Yeah."

Do you also agree with the second Coulter statement, Herb? Or do you think that she is "holding back" and something even more extreme should happen to Judaism?

"And look at the abundance of successful Jews throughout our nation. Jews are leaders in so many fields, and very well-represented as doing tremendous work in medicine, law and business.."

Does this sound smarmy to anyone else besides me? Patronizing? Condescending? Early 1960-ish?

Just substitute "Black" for "Jew"...

Honestly Merkin, I think that Herb is sincerely trying to be complimentary of the Jews he mentions. But there is an undercurrent of scorn for these non-Christians that can't help but show through.

Edsel, I'm glad that it's not just me who reads haughtyness into his post. "Undercurrent" is a perfect word choice.

"You got it easy. I'm a short, ugly, one-eyed, black Jew. What do you think it's like for me?"

-- Sammy Davis, Jr.

To find enemies of the Jews, one need only look at those who support the enemies of their homeland, the state of Israel.

The truth is that Christians overwhelmingly defend the Jewish people both here and abroad with their time, talents and treasure.

Ironically, it is often the radical left which supports their mortal enemies, like the PLO and Hamas, whilst decrying our financial and military contributions to Israel, and suggesting the outrageous notion of 'diplomatic relations' with those who have repeatedly sworn to obliterate the tiny country of Israel from the map.

The best friends of the Jews are often Christians.
The vilest enemies of the Jews are often the radical left.

Herb

If what Herb just stated were said by Ann Coulter, it would read like this:

"The vilest enemies of the Jews are often the radical left."

This fear is what feeds her racist hate.

I have "Radical Left" fatigue syndrome.

Does Herrbocrite ever leave his fortress, what with all the e-vile terrorists, Ham(as)-fists, lily-livered commie pinkos, radical lefties, Castro-ites, Venezualans, water-carrying-Pope-ttes, etc. lurking around every corner outside his compound. Rust never sleeps!

I stated the plain truth.

Rather than address the issue at hand, it's back to ad hominem attacks.

When leftists can't handle the truth, or rationally debate an issue, they typically attack the messenger.

Rant on.

Herb

It's YOUR truth.

P.S. Sorry, I forgot to add "(b)ad hominems" to the list of boogeymen.

Prattle on. Keep at least one eye open. They're coming to get you.

Herb writes:

The vilest enemies of the Jews are often the radical left.

Are you saying Ann Coulter is a liberal? I wouldn't claim her.

I think Ed's post was very rational. Can't we focus on that?

It's also quite instructive really. It's very easy to post some middle ground stuff, leave ambiguity, dance around some personal issue of bias. In the longer term it shows.

Isn't getting to the root of that more healthy than not?

Nobody should be an Anti-Semite. There is no reason to be. What others believe, has no impact on what any of us choose to believe, and more importantly, choose to behave.

Hate to keep repeating it, but it's very important:

This is one very American thing we all should be very proud of. It's our difference --that thing that makes us better than most --likely the best there ever was.

Here, we have the freedom to explore these things, act on them, learn from them. Trying to limit that, is really more about control issues and confusion than it is anything else.

Herb, you constantly hammer the left on this matter, yet enjoy the fruits of their labor. Freedom of religion means you get to be who you are, same for us.

Anybody hating on anybody else has a problem. Man Coutier has a problem --fairly large one actually. (and yes, I do think her Adam's apple is man sized! It's funny, laugh.)

I get the feeling a lot of people consider this free nation, unclaimed ground. No official dogma to lord over the non-conformers. I also get the feeling that a lot of people think it's perfectly ok to leverage others differences for their own gain.

Neither of these are true, so why can't we have a rational discussion about it.

On that note, anybody associated with this woman should be embarrased and is a tool really. She does not care, and will twist the knife on anybody --quicker if there is a bonus attached to the act of doing it.

She does the GOP great harm. She does get the value voters though! I suppose that's a net short term gain.

However, we all will suffer for it later down the road. Bad reasoning leads to bad policy which leads to a hurting and weak nation.

We are there folks, and entertaining people like this lies at the root of it.

"It's YOUR truth."

Wrong again.

It's called reality.

People and governments want Israel gone.

Deny on.

Herb

Whats frightening, is how the libs have twisted a fairly simple, accurate statement, into a twisted parady of what was said.

Fact, most Jewish people would have an easier life, if they converted.

She didnt say converted to what, if a jew lives in libya it would have to be moslim, ig they live in Georgia southern babtist, Boston catholic.

But most people dont take the easy way, they take the right way, which is a foreign concept to most liberals.

Whats frightening, is how the libs have twisted a fairly simple, accurate statement, into a twisted parady of what was said.

Fact, most Jewish people would have an easier life, if they converted.

She didnt say converted to what, if a jew lives in libya it would have to be moslim, ig they live in Georgia southern babtist, Boston catholic.

But most people dont take the easy way, they take the right way, which is a foreign concept to most liberals.

Fine. Now that you know we are going to talk about it this way, you can act accordingly. If she is allowed to state some " obvious truth " then so do we.

We'll all just deal with it, now won't we?

She's not an anti-semite. She just plays one on TV. Got it.

Nwokie, I'll accept what you are saying.

But, why are the Jews having a hard life?

Because in many parts of the world, there is still a lot of discrimination against the Jews, look at the hate that occassionally still pops up in Germany.

But it isnt only the Jews, in some areas babtists, or methodists, or catholics, or muslims, hindus are discriminated against. And it would be easier if they converted to the local faith, but people of religon don't do that. The Mormans are another good example, when i was on active duty, I had a couple of soldiers that were Wicen, and me and the first sgt had a real battle royal, before he started tgerating them right. First rule of the military, the higher rank usually wins arguments, except for 2nd lieutants.

Why are the Jews being discriminated against? (I really want to break this down in order to understand it)

Why are jews discriminated against?
For lots of reasons, they hold to a faith, that is at odds with one of the major relegions, many consider their the reason Christ was killed.

For a long time, about the only occupation they were allowed, was money lending, always a good way to make people mad at you.

In many areas, the Jewish people stick to their customery dress and appearance, which makes them look different. And lastly they have often been the convient scapegoat.

But as I said, the Jewish people arent the only ones that have been persecuted over the years, many relegions, and even the non relegion (athiests) have been discriminated for their beliefs.

My opinion is that Ann Coulter thinks the Jews have a hard life because they don't believe the right thing. That's what it always comes down to for her. Her truth is better than theirs.

I know others have been persecuted - I want to focus on Jewish discrimination right now.

My next question for you: Do you think Jews deserve to be discriminated against? Or is "persecuted" a better word?

No one should be persecuted for their beliefs, within some very broad limits. IE people with beliefs that actually harm others.

Nor for the way they live or look, again withen very broad limits.

Sounds like you are saying Jews do not deserve to be persecuted. So, who should take responsibility for their persecution? The persecutors?

Whoever did the persecution, people aren't responsible for what their ancesters do. However you are responsible for what you do, or allow to happen.

I don't think you've answered my question.

If today's Jews are being persecuted, who should take responsibility for the persecution?

It depends on where their being persecuted. In the US there is very little persecution of any relegion, we seem to have finally gotten that right, although we're not perfect, our court system does pretty good.

Most european countries are pretty good at protecting relegious groups. But when you get to arab/kurdish and other third world countries the protections are less.

I appreciate your responses, but I still don't think you are addressing my question. It's a pretty simple one:

If today's Jews are being persecuted, who should take responsibility for the persecution?

I'm looking for an answer like:

a) the Jews themselves
b) Other groups, but not the Jews
c) both the Jews and those persecuting them have some responsibility for Jewish persecution
d) Christians, mostly
e) Muslim, mostly
f) Atheists, mostly
g) Hindus, mostly
h) Buddhists, mostly
i) some combo of the above

You blame the individuals, that are doing the persecution, not a group!

Okay then...which individuals?

And are those individuals are mostly...from which group above? (or name your own group if not on my list). Or are the persecutors from every faith, every race, etc. - even from the Jews? Do Jews ever persecute themselves?

These may sound like silly questions, but I think we have to answer them to get any kind of understanding of the situation - and to be able to make any sense of what Ann Coulter meant by her statement.

But your getting away from what she said. She simply said that they could have an easier life if they changed. She didnt say they should change. And the same can be said for any minority group. The same goes for anyone that is "different", if they quit acting different their lifes could be easier, but then it would be such a boring world.

And guess what, the military is a minority, I have seen lots of soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines harrassed because they were in the military.

And just about everyone has a group they dont like, its not always ethnic or relegious. You may not believe this but some folks don't like rednecks, even though we're sweet and loveable.

"She simply said that they could have an easier life if they changed. She didnt say they should change."

But she never says that Christians should change, in order to make things easier for Jews. Why do you think that is?

" She didnt say they should change."

Oh for cryin' out loud, Nwokie. Do you honestly think she was saying something random and not implying that they should change? Why would she do that?

No.

And you really think there is NO reason to be weary of talk like that? Nobody should take offense or make any sort of judgment base on a suggetion like she makes? She specifically said it to GET a reaction. She get's one - and then you try and defend it as some sort of " she just announced a fact that is wholly truthful. If anyone adds meaning to it, they are mistaken."

Rediculous. Why Jews? I mean, if what you say is true, then she could have chosen any topic, and belief or any theory. What you are saying is a way of thinking that applies to absolutely any topic on every level.

So you don't think Jews have ANY reason to be bothered by what she said? What if I said " Nwokie, you would have an easier time of things around here if you chucked your beliefs and started genuinely doing things the way I want you to do them."? While accurate, do you not think saying something like that is absurd? To the point that it would make you defend why you will not be doing what I am telling you to do?

Please.

So whats wrong with that, she should want then to accept Christ. Just like Muslims want christians to accept mohammad, etc.

"So whats wrong with that, she should want then to accept Christ."

Nothing wrong with that, but that's not what she said. She said that they would have it easier if they converted to Christianity.

It sounds like the goon that says the shopkeeper's life would be easier and free of vandalism if he accepted the "insurance policy" he was selling.

" So whats wrong with that, she should want then to accept Christ."

There it is. It took a while. But we finally boiled it down.

Do you believe that to be her motivation? To win souls for Heaven? No. You don't. You are just throwing out yet another possible, but very unlikely, explanation. You yourself don't even believe it to be the case here.

Would that work for you for someone like her to say something like she did? No. It wouldn't. Because if it did, I could change your mind by just, you know, telling you to change your mind. No reason. Just " I want you to do it. For your own sake."

Interesting method.

Do you think it has a chance in HELL of working?

Answer any one of those questions.

Well what the bleep do we know anyway?

"So whats wrong with that, she should want then to accept Christ."

"Nothing wrong with that, but that's not what she said."

Actually, I saw the interview and she invited Donny Deutsch to church with her. Like Nwokie said, no one would think twice if a Muslim suggested that life would be easier if they followed Mohammed.

But the world hates Jesus and always has. He wasn't crucified because He was universally loved. Jesus has always been seen as threatening, especially to the unregenerate who love sin and won't walk in light.

Herb

" Actually, I saw the interview and she invited Donny Deutsch to church with her...

But the world hates Jesus and always has."

Jews deserve to be persecuted or at least discriminated against because they don't believe what you believe about Jesus.

Got it.

Ann Coulter is ACTUALLY doing God's work. ( The REAL God - not what Jews believe ) She invited him to her church! There's all the proof you need!

Got it.

Being anti-semitic is actually a good thing in this case. It's righteous.

Got it.

Saying that you disgaree with what motivates Ann Coulter to say what she said actually hurts Jesus. Taking her side in this case will keep me in good favor with God. If I don't, I am denying my own beliefs.

Got it.

Jews hate Jesus. So I hate Jews.

GOT IT !!

Wrong. No one said anyone deserves to be persecuted. Why you would make such a ham-fisted comment says more about your personal views than the beliefs of any religious group.

The simple fact is that Jesus presents a major stumbling block to those who do not take him at His Word, including both Gentiles and Jews alike.But because Israel broke their covenant with God, He took the Gentiles, the unchosen people, under His wing as well:

"Rather through their trespass salvation has come to the Gentiles, so as to make Israel jealous."
Romans 11

And if that's hard to understand, God does not always expect us to know:

"For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts." Isaiah 55:9

Herb

You're right. Jews don't deserve to be persecuted. But they fact that they are is supported in the Bible.

Got it.

When all logic fails, trot out the bible verses.

"..But they fact that they are is supported in the Bible."

God is able to persecute whomever He wishes. That doesn't give man any such excuse. Again, in Genesis 12:3, the very first book of the Bible, it is made clear NOT to persecute the Jews but instead to be their advocate and protector:

"And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

God is very clear that there is no excuse for mankind to practice any form of anti-Semitism. Let's be clear on that. It's a lesson ancient Egypt and 20th century Germany learned the hard way.

Herb

OK. Jews have their own faith to blame as a " stumbling block " if they want to be embraced by Christians. Until they convert, they will have to deal with our Christian spokesperson on this matter. She goes to church. Therefore, she only speaks the truth.

You know, you could end this Herb if you would denounce Ann Coulter. ( And mean it ). Everything you do and say on this matter smacks of supporting her. But never actually saying it. But you kind of see no problem with her on this one - so you don't even say you disagree with her. Fine. You and Ann Coulter. Peas in a pod. How does that make you feel?

Got it.

Why should she apologize? She didnt say anything wrong! I have seen several posts on theis board making disparaging comments about people of faith.

If she was an athiest telling the Jews the should quit believing in magic, would she be condemed?

If she was a Muslim telling christians they should convert to the true faith, would she be critized.

She stood up for what she believes, I admire that in any one. And shes not backing down because some think its politically incorrect.

" She stood up for what she believes, I admire that in any one."

Including Jews? Do you admire them as much as you admire Ann Coulter?

If " No. " Then we can stop.

If " Yes " then why should Jews smack of apologizing and convert to Christianity?

I didnt say they should convert, They are welcome to ask christians to convert to Judism, or Muslims , or even athiests.

Same as Atheists have the right to ask relegious people to convert to their non-relegion.

So you support what Ann Coulter said. All that she said. You agree with her?

Just yes or no - do you agree with her?

"God is very clear that there is no excuse for mankind to practice any form of anti-Semitism."

Then why do so-called christians like Mel Gibson and Ann Coulter openly support anti-Semitism?

Sure, their free to try to convert Ms Colter , or anyone else, they got Sammy Davis Jr to convert.

"You know, you could end this Herb if you would denounce Ann Coulter."

The Apostle Paul said many things, that like Ann Coulter, are considered politically incorrect. You'd have to give me a specific example of what I should denounce, because some of what Ann Coulter says is very true.

The true test is not what Herb thinks. It's balancing what anyone says with God's Word.

Herb

Denounce her? She did what shes suppossed to do, what everyone should do, stand up for their beliefs.

Why don't you denounce Jessee Jackson, hes a preacher, that tries to get people to convert.

How about denouncing the statement that "Jews need to be corrected." What specifically do they need to correct?

"How about denouncing the statement that "Jews need to be corrected." What specifically do they need to correct?"

In my opinion, the question asked of Ms. Coulter is unnecessarily specific of Jews. But because Mr. Deutsch is apparently Jewish, I can therefore understand why he would ask the question. But it's important to understand that the answer actually applies to Jews and non-Jews alike. So I'd re-phrase the question: "What do those who deny faith in Jesus need to correct?"

The answer? John 3:16 is a good start: 'For God so loved the world that whosoever BELIEVETH IN HIM shall not perish, but receive everlasting life.'

So to answer your very good question, the Bible tells us that Jews and non-Jews alike are to believe in Jesus. But why, you may ask? So that they may receive a good thing, the blessing of everlasting life. God is not a cosmic kill joy. He offers eternal life to ALL people:

The Lord does not delay his promise, as some account of delay, but is longsuffering towards you, NOT WILLING THAT ANY SHOULD PERISH, but that ALL should come to repentance. II Peter 3:9

Also understand that unlike militant Islam, which cuts off the heads of those deemed unbelievers, believing Christians are among the first in defense of the Jews and are commanded to share the Gospel with love.

The Gospel means 'good news.' When you have good news, who doesn't wish to share it? Maybe Chris would like to weigh in on this one with a more ecumenical, and possibly a bit more PC take on it.

Herb

From a christian point of view, they need to become Christians, same as from a Jewish point of view christians and Muslums need to become Jewish, and from a Muslum point of view, christians and Jews need to become Muslums, and from an athiest point of view, all relegious people need to give up their belief in magic,
and from a Wicen everyone else needs to give up their beliefs and become a wicen.

...and that is exactly why even entertaining these kind of comments, particularly in a public venue, just sucks huge.

It's gonna piss a percentage of people off, so why do it, unless it adds some serious value?

This woman is an attention whore, nothing more, nothing less.

Your right, it's gonna tick some people off, and make news, and she's in the news/entertainment business.

She couldn't have bought this much advertisment.

So come on - just say it - do you agree with all that she said or not? Assign whatever meaning you think it truthful - or accurate - and just say it.

I happen do believe that a converted Jew will not be perfect by virtue of them becoming Christian.

Maybe some of the other Chirstians believe that. I disagree.

So count me as a " NO. I do not agree with what she said."

Anyone else want to say it plainly? Or are we just going to dance some more?

Doesnt matter if you agree with it or not, she has the right to say it, just like jews have the right to convert people to their relegion, or muslums, or Hindus, or wicen, or athesits, or mormons etc.

True enough.

With that right comes the right for others to bitch about it huge.

Call it checks and balances. Say stupid things, get told one is being stupid.

Free speech is not a shield of any kind.

" Doesnt matter if you agree with it or not..."

It does matter to me. I want to know. Will you tell me?

"I happen do believe that a converted Jew will not be perfect by virtue of them becoming Christian."

Ok, Chickenjuggler. Fair enough. But the Bible declares to either follow Jesus, or be lost. It appears that one then either sees the teachings of Jesus as negotiable, as if he were a mere man, or the teachings of Jesus are real and although uncomfortable at times, true.

Perhaps C.S. Lewis said it best:
I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. � Mere Christianity,

So the question then becomes:

Do you believe the Gospel truth, or do you instead decide to make it up as you go along...and by whose authority?

Herb

" So the question then becomes:

Do you believe the Gospel truth, or do you instead decide to make it up as you go along...and by whose authority?"

You're right. It DOES become that. But instead of skipping over my question, would you mind answering mine and then I will answer yours?

Do you agree with what Ann Coulter said? ALL of it that is cited in that interview with Donny Boy.

You don't even have to support it with anything. I just want to know what you believe. Not why.

"Do you agree with what Ann Coulter said?"

Like I said, I would not have responded like she did. As I stated, my perspective is far broader than the question or the answer given.

However, like Nwokie noted, Mr. Deutsch, like Ms. Coulter, is in the media business. That being said, don't think that Mr. Deutsch hasn't seen some ratings benefit from the controversy, especially from what might seem to some as ambush journalism in a live interview.

Herb

Meet the new Dodge-O-Matic™!

Same as the old Dodge-O-Matic™!

So is that a Yes or a No, Herb?

I don't care what you would have done if you were talking to Donny Deutch. I'm asking you if you agree with what SHE said. Not " How well can you change the question and the answer?"

"Maybe Chris would like to weigh in on this one with a more ecumenical, and possibly a bit more PC take on it. "

Not today Herb.

"I'm asking you if you agree with what SHE said."

Like I said, I would not have responded like she did.

Herb

Herrb = eel

OK, you are purposely leading me to believe that you do NOT agree with what she said. But for some reason, you won't say it.

At least tell me why you won't say it.

Hypocrite.

Well I'm trying to figure out if Herb thinks I am not noticing that he won't answer the question. Or is he just biding his time until the subject changes ( and if it doesn't - he'll change it. By the way, the jig is up on that Herb. And Nwokie. This business of knowing you are beat in a debate, refusing to answer some questions that make you say things out loud - only to wait until there is a slight subject change - THEN you are all chatter and talkative - yeah - I notice that ) so he doesn't have to answer the question directly. Or is it a pride issue or is it that he can't swallow the thought of he and I agreeing. Or is it that he has put all this effort into being a contrarian on this issue that actually finally admitting that he doesn't even really believe in it would make him look foolish?

Or is it that he DOES agree with her and just can't figure out a way to do it without sounding like an anti-semite?

Either way Herb - let's not pretend that you answered MY question. You may have answered your own question - but it wasn't anywhere near what I asked.

"OK, you are purposely leading me to believe that you do NOT agree with what she said. But for some reason, you won't say it. At least tell me why you won't say it."

Unlike you, I've already specifically answered YOUR question in my post dated Sunday, October 14, 2007 @ 3:04 pm.

I'm waiting for your response to MY question.

And regarding name-callers from the atheistic fringe, it's a badge of honour to garner their scorn. I wouldn't expect satan to agree with belief in the Bible, either. We're known by our friends, but also our enemies.

Herb

OK well that post you cite reads like you DO agree with her. ( Even though that was not MY question you answered in that post ). But then later you say that you would not have responded the way she did - and THAT sounds like you DON'T agree with what she said.

So you can understand my confusion when you talk from both sides of your mouth. And if it's so clear and I am missing something SO obvious from you - then indulge me one last time;

"So come on - just say it - do you agree with all that she said or not?"

Yes or no.

You can't do it, can you? You have to rephrase the question to support your view. I don't care about that. I'm asking if you agree with what SHE said - not how you would have responded - not what the question becomes after you parse it out to your liking - with what SHE said.

"So come on - just say it - do you agree with ALL that she said or not?"

I don't agree with all of what she said. But to be honest, I haven't agreed with Mr. Nixon 100% of the time, either. And he was the cat's meow.

Herb

Thanks. We'll get to which part you disagree with later - because I suspect it's a similar part that I disagree with. But we'll see.

In the meanwhile, you deserve an answer to your question. Would you, for the record, ask it just once more?

For the record? Sure. The question, at its core, is whether or not one chooses to believe Christ's exclusive statements of His divinity. I'm not trying to 'box you in,' trick you, or make you answer something that you haven't thought about. But at some point we all will answer that question.

Jesus said, "No one comes to the Father but by Me." He also stated "The Father and I are One." That's why I noted the quote of C.S. Lewis. Jesus either is God, a liar, or worse. Which is it?

Below is the question as posted:

Ok, Chickenjuggler. Fair enough. But the Bible declares to either follow Jesus, or be lost. It appears that one then either sees the teachings of Jesus as negotiable, as if he were a mere man, or the teachings of Jesus are real and although uncomfortable at times, true.

Perhaps C.S. Lewis said it best:
I am trying here to prevent anyone saying the really foolish thing that people often say about Him: 'I'm ready to accept Jesus as a great moral teacher, but I don't accept His claim to be God.' That is the one thing we must not say. A man who was merely a man and said the sort of things Jesus said would not be a great moral teacher. He would either be a lunatic -- on the level with the man who says he is a poached egg -- or else he would be the Devil of Hell. You must make your choice. Either this man was, and is, the Son of God: or else a madman or something worse. You can shut Him up for a fool, you can spit at Him and kill Him as a demon; or you can fall at His feet and call Him Lord and God. But let us not come with any patronizing nonsense about His being a great human teacher. He has not left that open to us. He did not intend to. � Mere Christianity,

So the question then becomes:

Do you believe the Gospel truth, or do you instead decide to make it up as you go along...and by whose authority?

Herb

Sometimes.

Sometimes.

Mine.

Which is the only authority that matters.

I could have given all kinds of examples of how when and why different things apply to different situations - ones that would be perfectly normal, acceptable and even understandable and beneficial - but Herb didn't ask me that. And to avoid being a hypocrite, I answered them succintly and truthfully and without an air of superiority.

Now, if I was using Herb's way of answering questions, I would have ansered those questions with " What the question then becomes is; Do you sin?"

To which I would answer " Yes."

Big deal. I make mistakes. Sometimes I even do it intentionally. I'm not perfect.

Ask me more questions, Herb. Really. Try and point out some flaw that I don't already know about and take my lumps for. Because I'm not a proud man, it has no effect on me. I don't pretend to have it all down.

But really, ask me more. I'll tell you anything you want to know. I'll give you all the ammunition you think you want or need. Bring it on.

This all boils down to someone doesn't like their relegion critized. Certain relegions are basically incompatible, if you believe in one, another is by default wrong.

We have freedom of relegion, which means you are free to worship or not worship in any mannor you want, (withen very broad limits). We also have the freedom to criticise others, freedom of speech, if someone doesnt like their relegious beliefs criticized, thats tough.

Same as every friday, except when its raining or cold, I see the anti war demonstrators around Pioneer square, tehy have the right to be there and carry signs but I have the right to tell them what I think of them.

This is a free country, mostly.

" This all boils down to someone doesn't like their relegion critized."

You know, I understand why you say that. It is a part of it. But there IS more. Substantially more.

If you really could boil it down to a statement like " This all boils down to someone doesn't like their relegion critized." then how do you account for me taking a position that says " I don't like that."? I'm not even Jewish. Why should I care?

Tell me.

( And before you say " You don't like it because Ann Coulter said it and you don't like anything she says and dismiss it out of hand " - don't even start. Because I am telling you that that is not true either ).

Mann is what she is....

#1 a Mann
#2 a media whore
#3 a business Mann
#4 a political ANAList for FAUXNews

Why would anyone take her seriously??? She is the EXTREME RIGHTs Randi Fin Rhodes. Both are pointless to listen too. GARBAGE!

Theres nothing wrong, with standing up for something, even if its something you don't agree with. You can disagree with what Ms Coulter says, what is wrong is to disagree with her right to say it.

NEVER EVER said that I disagreed with her right to say it! Just like YOU EXTREME RIGHTIES want to piss and moan about anyone saying anything wrong about DUHbya.....

Very interesting thread guys.

The hard reality is religion is just a belief thing. It's not a known truth. We all get to make our choices, and we can CHANGE them and that's the crux of this.

If everyone reached acceptance on the facts about religion; namely, that it is a matter of faith and not fact, discussions about religion would be largely pleasant.

At least two things come into play here that make it ugly:

1. religion is often used to justify things that are otherwise just unacceptable or supportable.

ie: bigotry (just one of many)

2. because of number 1, people have more than a healthy need to see their particular religion, more fully realized and embodied in their peers lives than would be the case otherwise.

If one is a healthy and stable person, religion is something that just adds to life in a good way. Others practicing it differently is not a threat.

Why?

Because the personal justification and rationalizations are not keyed to the religion!

And that's where the whole mindshare bit comes into play.

If a given person has used religion to justify their own personal failings, they've got more than an academic interest in seeing as many of their peers as is possible, see religion the same way, and leverage it for the same reason.

Thus, religion becomes a matter of politics, that trancends more fundemental matters of pure theology and spiritual growth.

This is where Ann is playing. It's less than honest, in that the motivations for even having the discussion is not a genuine need or interest in advocacy, or education.

It's all about feeling good about herself, and helping others to do the same. This is where CHANGING beliefs comes into play.

If one is a bigot, for example, surrounded by other bigots, then it's pretty easy to bring new people into the world and keep them ignorant about their learned bigotry.

However, if there are people out there, willing and able to present that bigotry for what it is, then a conflict arises. That brings doubt into the picture and generally diminishes the support structure that would be there otherwise.

This is why people want to home school, fight constantly over what is in public education, thrash other religions, etc...

All about forced ignorance, not any kind of rational advocacy, academic discussion, etc..

Ms Coulter didnt threaten anyone, she didnt harm anyone, she simply made a statement, that she felt her relegion was better. All relegions try to convert others, that includes athesits.

It's laughable that non-Jews are offended for a so-called 'anti-Semitic' statement, and a Jewish person isn't. Indeed, he's far more concerned about the radical left cozying up by having 'dialogue' with Muslim extremists and holocaust deniers, the REAL enemy of the Jewish people. I suppose leftists would have had a dialogue with Hitler, too?

"There is nothing in what Ann Coulter said to a Jewish interviewer on CNBC that indicates she hates Jews or wishes them ill, or does damage to the Jewish people or the Jewish state. And if none of those criteria is present, how can someone be labeled anti-Semitic?"

http://www.townhall.com/columnists/DennisPrager/2007/10/16/ann_coulter_wants_jew s_to_become_christian_--_so_what

This Jewish writer also makes Nwokie's same point:

"She believes that Christianity is better than Judaism. So what? Why is that in any way different from liberals thinking that liberalism is truer and morally superior to conservatism? Or conservatives thinking that their values are superior to liberal values?"

Herb

I'm not offended at what Coulter says. It's her right to look like a jerk if she wants, as that seems to be her MO. However, she does insinuate that jews are second class citizens as compared to christians because jews have the wrong beliefs. As a non-religious person, I have a hard time accepting these so-called christians at face value when they speak of family and moral values, yet spew divisive statements like "jews need to be corrected". If you can't walk the walk, then don't talk the talk.

"...she does insinuate that jews are second class citizens as compared to christians because jews have the wrong beliefs."

If a noted Jewish person is fine with her, why would you not be?

Herb

Why, jews say the same things when trying to convert others, as well as Muslums, hindus etc.
Even athiests, some of their comments about relegious people are much worse than anything Ms Coultre said.

I'm having trouble figuring out why anyone should even pay any attention to her statement. She frequently makes outrageous comments.

Perhaps we need to amend the Constitution to get rid of the free speech nonsense.

All groups have their extremists, and Coulter is an extremist within her group (conservative Christians).

If an Atheist, or a Muslim, or a Buddhist were to say something similar about "perfecting" Jews, I think the term 'anti-semite' would also apply.

Why are Rightie defenses of Rightie actions always couched as "this other group/person does it too!" Talk about moral relativism...

No, it's not couched as "this other group/person does it too"

Evidence is presented that there is no consensus among those supposedly 'offended.'

The real question is why leftists take partisanship to such pathetic ends? So you don't like Ann Coulter's opinion when she's asked a question. Big deal. It's not like she's killing an unborn child, which the left defends constantly.

Herb

So, you don't like MoveOn.org's answer to the question, "General Petraeus or General Betrayus?" Big deal. It's not like Petraeus is helping perpetuate a deadly and unwinnable...

Oh. Never mind.

That's just like moveon.commie to mock a General who has devoted his life while risking it, to serve and defend our nation.

To radical leftists, no good deed goes unpunished.

What a bunch of traitorous ingrates. O'Reilly is right. There's no real difference between the approach of moveon.commie and all the other 'hate-America first' groups out there.

Herb

You're a piece of work Herb, I'll give you that much.

Did anyone see Frontline tonight? "Cheney's Law" was the name of the show.

I can't wait until this administration is gone. Arrogant bastards.

The troll -- what a waste of time it is to talk with him. Converts nobody and alienates many who shares some of his view. Again, the planet and humankind would be better off without him. Heck, God would be better off without him.

Get over yourself, Herb.

Are you so blind to the fact that the True Americans are yourself, AND MoveOn, AND the pro-abortion people, AND Fred Phelps, AND Bill Moyers, AND even (dare I say it) Ann Coulter, along with many others.

Any one who feels that this country is on the wrong track (whatever the "wrong track" may be for you) and is willing to get off their butts to stand up for what they believe in is a True American. The only people I would begin to consider being Un-American are those who believe that the principles of democracy, rights and freedoms central to the American values we hold dear are a birthright; that these rights don't require that due diligence be paid, almost every single day, to make sure they are maintained and preserved - and perhaps expanded. You worry about Communism, Socialism, and probably a few other Isms, but Apathy is what will endanger this nation.

It has always galled me every time you trot out the 'hate America' line, but I've learned to brush it off as another annoying Herbism. But I finally realized that you don't get it. Everyone who stands strongly and firmly for the best ideals of America is a devout, strong, true American - and that includes practically everyone on this political board. That we all think, and feel, PASSIONATELY about the best interests of America is clear. Your petty, pathetic little "traitorous ingrates" rants just show how little you truly understand what America is all about.

Herb, I vehemently disagree with the majority of what you post. I think many of your ideas are dangerous to the protection of individual rights, to the overall security of our country, and to the lives of our valiant fighting soldiers. I think you are a self-righteous narrow-minded bigot on many levels (just some, not all).

But...I have never, and will never, consider you anything less than a True American. I wonder why, with your Christian roots, you are unable to see the love and concern all the groups from all parts of the political spectrum have for this country. We don't have to agree. But at least be as respectful as we can - and I even slip sometimes - toward each other.

I now yield the floor to my esteemed colleague Herb, from the state of Freedonia...

" Did anyone see Frontline tonight? "Cheney's Law" was the name of the show."

Frontline is a great show to me. I didn't like the added ominous soundtrack and false voice-overs. ( Is that a new style they are trying? I haven't noticed that before ). But the content was terribly sad. I only caught the last 20 minutes. It repeats on Wednesday on another station. The DVR is set. I'm fairly sure I'll watch it - but I have to admit; I am on a BIG overload of " stuff that freaks my shit out that I can't seem to have any positive effect on " these days. I go through phases like this - probably weather change plays a part. But DANG - WTF am I supposed to do with that information about Cheney? I called it " sad " earlier. That's not quite it. It's actually much more complex for me. It's not just simple politics - it's borderline EVIL. And man, it's beating me down. I'll get back up, but, you know? Shit!

SOMEONE GIVE ME SOME HOPE!

It's honestly getting to the point for me where watching our very foundations get torn apart to this degree is having the same effect on me as when I see ( and more recently, have to avoid reading about ) stories about child abuse. It turns into something visceral. Completely unhealthy.

You know how we, as United States citizen view other countries and go " OK - they have a leader that was not what they bargained for. Surely they will rectify it when they are given their next chance. Then we will be able to talk in the manner that fosters MUCH better things than our current relationship with them contains...but they'd better get their shit together and elect or get in power someone who can get it done."? You know how we do that to other countries?

Yeah.

We'd better do that here or we are going to completely self-destruct. The rest of the world won't have to lift a finger.

"SOMEONE GIVE ME SOME HOPE!"

It does appear that the AG nominee seems to be someone everyone can live with.

"Are you so blind to the fact that the True Americans are yourself, AND MoveOn, AND the pro-abortion people, AND Fred Phelps, AND Bill Moyers, AND even (dare I say it) Ann Coulter, along with many others."

That's a bold statement. You have my attention.

"Any one who feels that this country is on the wrong track (whatever the "wrong track" may be for you) and is willing to get off their butts to stand up for what they believe in is a True American."

Ok. Fine. I just have a major problem with those who bash our troops like General Petraeus.

Herb

CJ-
Maybe you need a Quantum Physics rush. Put good thoughts into your head. Even though the Frontline program had some disturbing news and nothing really surprised me, you can do things in your day-to-day activities that are worthwhile.

I have learned that encouraging others everyday is a good start. It's doesn't have to be sappy.

I love waking my kids up in the morning and getting them off to school. The chit chat as they awake and the hum of getting ready....I love it.

I have long since let go of things I can't control...like Cheney, Bush, Herb et al. In the big picture of my daily life I have too much to enjoy, learn and discover. It's also in the mundane that I find comfort.

I can give you story after story of people doing some incredible work that is making a difference in the lives of so many. May I suggest this web site? www.goodnewsnetwork.org.

And not to sound preachy but this verse from Philippians is pretty good: "Finally, brethren, whatever is true, whatever is honorable, whatever is right, whatever is pure, whatever is lovely, whatever is of good repute, if there is any excellence and if anything worthy of praise, dwell on these things."

I hope that helps.

"Ok. Fine. I just have a major problem with those who bash our troops like General Petraeus."

In America, there should be no one who stands above criticism. So who has the right to criticize the actions of Petraeus? President Bush, perhaps? Well, he is a civilian just like you and me. So why should Bush have any more rights of freedom of speech than I do?

Scathing criticism of the military may be uncivil, but it is by no means unpatriotic.

To radical EXTREME RIGHTIES, nothing good goes unpunished. If it doesn't harm America it's out!

Herb said>>>
There's no real difference between the approach of moveon.commie and all the other 'hate-America first' groups out there.

And the same goes for the EXTREME RADICAL RIGHTIES that want to take away everyone's rights to think as they please.

"So why should Bush have any more rights of freedom of speech than I do?"

He has access to far more confidential war-room intel. Mr. Bush and the DOD would know IF there were any problems with such a brave General. Otherwise, all we get are ham-fisted attacks from the anti-military left. Soldiers put their lives on the line and deserve our respect.

The Soldier:
By Charles M. Province

It is the soldier, not the reporter, who has given us freedom of the press.

It is the soldier, not the poet, who has given us freedom of speech.

It is the soldier, not the campus organizer, who has given us the freedom to demonstrate.

It is the soldier, not the lawyer, who has given us the right to a fair trial.

It is the soldier, who salutes the flag, who serves under the flag, and whose coffin is
draped by the flag, who allows the protester to burn the flag.

If you can read this message thank a teacher, If you are reading it in English of your own free will THANK A SOLDIER!

Herb

The prose by Charles M Province was posted a while back Herb. This was my prose in response.
----------------------------------------------

May the soldier of our future be a peacekeeper more than a warrior

May the soldier of our future have hands that save more lives than they have to take

May the soldier of our future visit lands not as occupants but as respectful visitors

May the soldier of our future wear the uniform proudly while marching in parades and less as a pallbearer

May the soldier of our future have less do with war and more to do with honor

May the soldier of our future, be someday, a soldier no more
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I have deep respect for those who choose to serve. I have had many friends serve by choice. My father however was invited by Uncle Sam to be involved with WWII. He was 18 yrs old. Came home 20 yrs old and was forever changed. He never wore his uniform again. He rarely talks about his service. War to him was not glorious or to be glorified. It's truly hell. The smell of dead burnt bodies leaves an impression upon you.

Why, oh why Herb do you seem to think war is the better solution to most of our problems in foreign policy?

General Sherman said it best.
War is hell.
Like you, I earnestly wish for war no more.

When an innocent person is backed into a corner by one who would slaughter many, diplomacy does not always work.

What were our options in WWII? Should we have allowed evil to prevail and take over the globe? We tried reasoning with Hitler. He laughed behind Chamberlain's back.

And what is our option with those so blinded by hatred that they will destroy Israel with a nuclear device?

I earnestly believe that we should make war no more whenever possible.
But defend the innocent.

Herb

I agree Herb don't get me wrong. I believe we both know war should be a last and justifiable option. But it seems we are being awfully quick on the trigger these days

There's a lot iffy reasoning in our current foreign policy. We aren't gaining any respect with other countries in the world. Our policy seems to be isolationistic. The old "either for us or against us� is a poor place to start in trying to negotiate because it immediately creates a wall.

I don't trust Iran's leader and we need to keep him in check, yet I don't trust Bush to do what's right. He leads with his �glock� loaded and cocked.

>>"And what is our option with those so blinded by hatred that they will destroy Israel? "<<

Israel has made it's own problems too Herb. Sure certain nations hate them, and like the US, they've brought on some of their own problems.

Protect the innocent I agree. There are no easy answers and I don't claim to have the ability to truly understand the complexity of these issues.

It wasn't soldiers that made this country so great...it was her people. Dedicated people early on whom I believe today would be in total shock of what we've become.

"But it seems we are being awfully quick on the trigger these days..."

Fair enough. I wish there was a good way to neutralize evil leaders. The UN is corrupt and actually often makes matters worse.

Herb

I'm not as cynical about the UN as you are but I do agree they could be a stronger entity.

Israel is armed with enough nuclear weapons to destroy the whole region. They can defend themselves just fine. If Iran and Israel want to have a war, I say let them go at it without our involvement.

Herb said>>>
He has access to far more confidential war-room intel.

Too bad he isn't intelligent enough to use it....