http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/09/25/jim-cramer-bust-the-uaw-theres-no-reaso n-to-build-cars-in-america/

Hoping, but not expecting, the anti-union stuff to be kept down on this one. The bigger question is longer term viability of this nation.

We really don't make much here anymore. So far, one compensation has been to increase credit, another has been the whole housing value bubble, and a third has been a really hard push on IP law matters.

(We've inked free trade deals, and leveraged the WTO for this purpose repeatedly.)

That leaves us with information, service and right now war. IMHO, I just don't see how that's sustainable, without some local value exchanges that combine to build wealth.

(That's local jobs, producing things we need here, and ideally exporting them.)

One analogy, I can think of, is being the idea guy at work. For a while, this is important, but at the end of the day, just directing really does not fly.

This is different from management. That does have benefits. I suppose we could try and manage the world --thus making the war efforts somewhat relevant, but that's gonna have push back at some point. It just has to.

What do you guys think about these things? Just wondering where everybody is at.

Aren't most of the "foreign" cars actually made in the U.S.?

Some "Made in America" foreign car plants have actually closed. (VW, for one.)

My wife's Acura RDX was built in the Marysville , Oh. This plant has been in operation for almost 25 years and still going strong. 440,000 cars come out of this plant every year.

The recent GM-UAW settlement ought to be a positive sign for American built cars. The union didn't ask for a wage hike and GM agreed to turn retirement funds over to a trust -- big steps. I understand the UAW is asking Ford and Chrysler to agree to the same deal in order to ensure strife-free car manufactoring in the USA during the near future.

Now that Chrysler is independently owned they should tell the union's to get bent and hire their own people. Toyota and Honda have kicked ass and taken names here in America with NO unions and their workers are doing just fine.

"and their workers are doing just fine."

Sort of like how Bush thinks the previous $5.15 minumum wage was "just fine" too.

Oh oh:

Toyota Not Kicking Ass Anymore.

http://www.nytimes.com/2007/09/04/business/04uaw.html

"But now, emboldened by Toyota’s plans to cut labor costs at its American factories, the U.A.W. is making its most concerted push yet to organize workers at the Japanese automaker’s largest American plant.

"Organizers have seized on leaked Toyota internal documents that show the company wants to cut $300 million in labor costs in North America by 2011. . . ."

"Recently, the company has taken a harder line on wages and labor costs, giving union organizers what they perceive as an opening. Just last week, Toyota told workers in Kentucky they would have to start paying a premium for health insurance for family members. . . ."

They might have to start paying a premium for FAMILY MEMBERS? Oh my, what heartache. I don't know many people that have employer provided health insurance benefits where they don't have to pay some kind of premium to cover a spouse or children. I don't pay a dime towards my own coverage, but if I wanted to add family members, I pay extra, as I should. And so should they.

Honda:

http://www.prol-position.net/nl/2005/04/honda

Strike and Police Brutality at Honda Motorcycle and Scooter India (HMSI)

The month-long strike/lock-out at HMSI and the police attack on the workers caused a big stir in India. . . ."

This one was really messy. The Indian gov't needs Japan's investments yet Honda treated the employees like cattle. There's lot of stuff about it on the net. This source isn't as biased as some.

"I don't pay a dime towards my own coverage, but if I wanted to add family members, I pay extra, as I should. And so should they."

Ahh, Freddies, Albertsons and Safeway pays for entire families.

It is your choice to work at an employer that doesn't want to offer full health insurance. Others have chosen to find jobs WITH health insurance, many times for that reason alone. Often times the work is crap and the hours suck, but full coverage is full coverage. Now if the employer want to yank it away, they'll hear about it from their employers.

Oh, you wouldn't take a $4/hr equilvant pay cut lightly either.

And that's why Freddie's, Albertsons and Safeway charge an arm and a legn and are becoming uncompetitive.

"I pay extra, as I should. And so should they."

This can also be stated as: "I pay extra for vacations, as I should, so you should too."

Surely you can come up with a better argument.

Wages, paid breaks, paid holidays, paid VACATIONS, health insurance, et al are acceptable compensation for employment in our society. The employers shaft you with health insurance first because they'd lack public support if they went after vacation pay.

Think about it. Whats more important -- health insurance or vacation/paid holidays? You're being shafted man.

"And that's why Freddie's, Albertsons and Safeway charge an arm and a legn and are becoming uncompetitive."

Not based on fact. The "uncompetive" angle has been used by anti-union folks since at least 1968. Shall I tally up the years for you? Lets take Freddies -- shall I do a store count for you? Geez, Freddies is Kroger's cash cow.

Safeway -- jeez, everywhere you turn, a new Safeway.

Albertsons -- yeah albertsons suck. Anti-union management for years. Worst place to work this side of UPS. Recently sold to a new owner. We'll see what happens.

Looking for an arm and a leg? Go to a few non-union Thriftways. Heh.

Not based on fact? What world do you live in? Go shop at Safeway and then buy all the same national brands at Winco. Safeway is a minimum of 30% more. For the same shit! Plus you have to put up with all the pinheads that are required to tell you to "have a nice day".

And, I'm not being shafted. My wage if you worked it out hourly would be north of $60. I don't pay a dime towards my health care, plus I can take as much vacation as I want if I can handle it. But I don't expect my employer to also pay for my family's coverage, and neither should a checker at a stinking supermarket.

You've your opinions. lets leave it at that. btw, part of winco is employee owned, doesn't carry all items, isn't in all markets and isn't a direct comparsion. Winco skims the market. It couldn't compete one to one heads up. If Winco had to put a store in every market where there's a Safeway in Oregon, and carry the same items, their cost would be far higher.

Winco is worth the gas for the bulk of grocery shopping though. Spend $100 there and that same merchandise would cost you $175 at Safeway. I do prefer Safeway produce and deli over Winco and am willing to pay a little higher for those two items. A Tillamook cheese loaf is still the same though wherever you get it, just cheaper at some places than others. I am willing to make three or four trips for things we need in a week. I am not willing to pay more simply as a convienance because I am there knowing that down the street it is much cheaper. Winco, Costco, Safeway, Cash & Carry.

Winco absolutely competes with Safeway...they're both grocery stores! And, I can't begin to tell you how many times I go to our neighborhood Safeway to pick up a special item, and they are out or don't carry it. Never has that happened at Winco, they always have plenty of stock and carry way more items that Safeway. Granted, you have to bag your own groceries and the decor is not as appealing, but then again, I don't go to a grocery store for the ambience.

Winco carries the majority of the same national brands as any of the higher priced stores; Safeway, Albertsons and Fred Meyer.

What Winco doesn't carry is the "store" branded stuff which for the most part I don't buy anyway.

Here's a recent example. I went to Winco and did some regular shopping. I wanted to get some Dreyers frozen fruit juice bars (really just fancy popsicles!), but I wasn't going straight home and didn't want them to melt.

I had to stop at Fred Meyer to get some chicken as I Won't buy chicken at Winco. All they carry is Tyson chicken. Besides being southern grown and trucked into the NW, they inject it with 15% to 25% of what they call broth or "flavor enhancers". I call it a way to make the chicken weigh more and raise the price. Foster Farms is far better tasting chicken.

The frozen fruit bars were $2.99 for a box of 6 at Winco and $4.29 for the exact same thing at Fred Meyer. I asked an employee if they would match the price and they said no. Needless to say I didn't buy them.

I only go to the rip off grocery stores if I absolutely have to and then only for 1 or 2 items.

The other thing that really pisses me of about Safeway and Albertsons is having to have their stupid card to get the "Club" savings. I’ve got enough stuff in my wallet. I don’t want to have to carry their crap. If you use your card you can then get it at only 25% more than at Winco!

I don't mind paying a little more if you actually get something for it; personalized service, better quality or if I'm supporting a local business. But just paying more because the store can charge more is stupid.

"But just paying more because the store can charge more is stupid."

Actually, in the grocery business, they operate with the slimmest of slim margins. The statement that they "charge more because they can" is not really fair.

"Winco absolutely competes with Safeway"

Not true. They can't, and won't. You'll never see Winco line the coast like Safeway does, because it'll bankrupt them. They skim the market in places where they can. Thats it. No Winco will ever be in everybody's neighborhood, because thei business model doesn't work that way.

Safeway is less than one mile from my house. Winco is 15 miles from my house. I shop at Winco, therefore as far as my business is concerned, Winco DOES compete with Safeway, otherwise I'd choose the store that's closest to me.

OK.

I usually go to Fred Meyer which is further than non-union Lamb's thriftway because Freddies pays for health insurance and contributes into my one of my pensions's trust. Non-union Lamb's, well, serves Bob Lamb quite well I'm sure.

I vacationed in Michigan this summer and had to shop at Kroeger's (parent of FM). They have a discount club card, similar to Safeway. I showed them my FM Rewards card, and the cashier was very aware of FM. Though my card didn't work in the Kroeger system, they still gave me the discount. I was impressed with the effort they put forth to take care of me as a customer.

I refuse to carry the grocery cards, but usually you can just enter your phone number instead. At Safeway, I just use my mom's number, since I never bothered to get a card of my own, and it's my little way of throwing off their big-brother-is-watching-you system.

At Albertsons, I give them her number, it doesn't work, they try again, it still doesn't work, they just give up and give me the discount anyway(usually they swipe their own card).

This weekend, I heard a radio commercial for the Toyota Tundra, announcing that this vehicle is "made in the USA." (Trixter's allusion to US made Toyota products is duly noted.)

In this age of globalized manufacturing, I think that it is pretty clear that the only reason that a major company, such as a car manufacturer makes its products in a given place is that the benefits of making the product there outweigh the costs of making the product there by a greater margin over other locations. That's actually an over-simplification because a complex product like the Toyota Tundra is bound to contain parts that were made and assembled outside of the US, even if the USA is the place where the final assembly of the vehicle takes place.

For the sake of this discussion, I don't think that retail businesses, such as supermarkets are relevant. The reason why is simple: If a retail chain wants to serve a specific geographic area, they have to put a store there and, because of the way retail works, hire people from that area to staff it. A better comparison would be another manufacturing-type industry, such as semiconductors, consumer electronics, appliances, etc.

The foreign brands make make their products here at the present time, but if the unions get into the plants, they'll soon be made in Mexico.

I might actually consider that, but for these things:

having worked in manufacturing, and having to really go the distance to even get a living wage, despite the high skill requirement, no thanks! Union, self-employed or nothing for those jobs.

Look around folks! This is what nothing looks like, and 90 percent of those I used to work with, made the exact same decision I did.

It's moving up the chain too. Really great computer people are starting to become scarce. Used to be, a great sysadmin or developer, would be mentored by another one, resulting in two quality people able to add serious value.

(and that's the kind of people you can hand a net connection and some hardware to and see viable systems in a week.)

I can't even find the kind of people I need to mentor! Most of my mentors are gone as well, having moved into one of the people fields, just to stay wage competitive. That cycle is breaking, just as the manufacturing one did.

And I'm moving, just as my mentors did, leaving nobody behind to continue to build wealth. Is this such a hard cycle to see? Doesn't it worry you guys, even a little?

Now, we've got certified "robogeeks". They work for cheap, can't think their way out of even the smallest dilemma and god forbid one actually has to script something, or write some systems code...

That value is moving to the same places manufacturing is. We will be left with sales people, managers and communications experts --and a growing gaggle of consultants. Not good. Not good at all for our longer term viability as a nation. That crowd is not gonna come up with the next wave of tech, and we all will end up lower class as a result, leading in nothing.

So, there are two problems now. One is the wage itself, the other is a growing lack of capable people because the wage potential does not equal the personal investment required for mastery of the trade.

If we didn't outsource our own internal economy, for the sake of fat ass wall street types, union wages would be completely viable --and we would be far more capable as a nation!

Helps to actually make stuff here and use our own dollars for it.

Unions can be a problem, no doubt. However, our policy is a bigger one. If we address that, then more aggressive work on unions might be a more reasonable proposition.

Deane_johnson:
The foreign brands make make their products here at the present time, but if the unions get into the plants, they'll soon be made in Mexico.

Yes, heaven knows the only ones allowed to make a livable wage in the US anymore are the members of the senior executive team

Skeptical:

I usually go to Fred Meyer which is further than non-union Lamb's thriftway because Freddies pays for health insurance and contributes into my one of my pensions's trust. Non-union Lamb's, well, serves Bob Lamb quite well I'm sure.

Well said. I live closer to WinCo, but haven't gone in there in over a year. I too support Freddie's.

>>>"Yes, heaven knows the only ones allowed to make a livable wage in the US anymore are the members of the senior executive team"

Then it might be a good move to become a Republican and get on the senior executive team.

Yeah right. Compare education and income from "blue" states and "red" states. You'll find that blue states are more educated and earn more money per capita than red states. That's because conservatives on average are dumber and make less money than their liberal counterparts.

Missing, what part of the computer industry are you in? I don't see that kind of issue in my corner of the field (yet).

Tadc...
He said manufacturing 5 posts above yours.

I've been around.

It's beginning to happen with sysadmins. Many now are consultants, currently leveraging remote tech. That same remote tech will put them overseas rather quickly. I don't think sysadmins will completely outsource. There is too much of a competetive edge to be had with good ones.

Mentoring those good ones will prove more difficult though. The well rounded talent pool is harder to find + cost of living makes barrier to entry in the field more negative = less overall pool to develop good people from.

Small to mid sized companies are rapidly adopting this model. (outsource sysadmin, general IT management.) In the last 5 years, I have seen a very sharp increase in the number of remote consultants managing company IT. (and not always with good results!)

Application "engineers" are also seeing a diminished capacity. Used to be, these people had strong backgrounds. Now it's more demo jock, less systems focus. (And given the strong integration story right now, this is just beyond me...)

These are getting very tough. Need to be personable, have great problem solving skills, and a fairly well rounded work history / education, combined with a willingness to work with and understand all sides (dev, customer, user, sales, systems...) The outsourcing of dev people hurts, largely because the interactions required are more difficult / less potent.

Programmers are half gone. The personable ones, or those with some really difficult to replace skills are here and doing well. Many are / have been outsourced to India.