I think if Jesus Christ had lived in this day and age, he would have advised his disciples to get a permit and carry a gun because, as Ben Franklin liked to remind people, "God helps them that helps themselves."

http://www.oregonlive.com/commentary/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/editorial/1189806 90580250.xml&coll=7

Sadly Mr. Larson has truly misunderstood Jesus' words. Jesus never used a sword on anyone personally. It's a metaphor he is using for his disciples to cloth or protect themselves by the sword of faith. The sword of God's love, the sword of respect for others. It's not an actual sword.

This is the problem with the far right's interpretation of scripture. It's a true bastardization of the God's Word.

Bumpersticker:

Jesus Called, He Wants His Religion Back!

Chris is spot on. Spirituality is the root reasoning of a Conscientious Objector. Perhaps, Lars thinks that Corporal Desmond Doss is less of a hero for refusing a firearm in World War Two. He should be reminded that knowledge, bravery and a deeply personal faith is far more powerful than fear and weaponry.

Cpl Doss is a true hero, but I wonder how fewer casualties he would have had to save, if he had had a weapon, and used against the Japanese.

Besides often being atheist, the left has a problem with Our Lord because He was not politically correct:

I have not come to bring peace, but a sword.
Matthew 10:34

He said to them, if you don’t have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.
Luke 22:36

Since when are those who disavow Christ's divinity qualified to judge His statements?

Herb

Herb-

Again you fall into the same problem. I have feverishly explained over and over again, and have used notable theologians who also agree that Jesus is not talking about an actual sword. If Jesus were talking about a real sword then he would have used it? However nowhere in scripture does Jesus even raise a sword.

However when one of his disciples grabs a sword and cuts the ear off a servant in the Garden just hours before Jesus is crucified, he heals the servant’s ear. A lowly servant I might add.

I am a believer Herb, but I am also a person who recognizes the subtle nature of the Greek and Hebrew language that was translated into our scriptures. And it makes a world of difference because you are taking scripture and twisting it politically, missing the very essence of Jesus. You are really no better than the Pharisee’s of Jesus' day.

I ask you again. Where does Jesus pick up a physical sword and use it in scripture?

"...you are taking scripture and twisting it politically.."

No.

I simply take Jesus at His Word. If Jesus said that we were not to defend ourselves, or that we were not to carry a weapon, I would believe that. But He says the exact opposite.

I would gladly surrender any political agenda in favour of God's Word.

And regarding pharisees, I sincerely believe that the hottest place in hades is reserved for 'pro-choice' Christians: Mark 9:42

Herb

"Faith is a journey, not a guilt trip"

I'll stick with Chris any day, he's the dove (and the PK).

Seconded.

He is one of the few people that gives me cause to believe that religion may yet do us some solid good.

Herb, you need a correction:

"Besides often being..."

is actually,

"Sometimes being..."

Remember, upwards of 90 percent of us believe. Given a rough political split, there is no basis for characterizing the "left", which is in and of itself a rough characterization, as being "often atheist".

Will you stop doing that please?

It's inflammatory, divisive, and generally adds no value, other than to reinforce your misconceptions.

All the bible verses presented have been taken out of context.
I'm a Christian that believes religion does not include ones' political leanings; politics come from ourselves, not the Word. Think about it - if all churches were political, the churches down the street from each other might be praying for the exact opposite. Since we ask God for our prayers to be fulfilled, how could he possibly fulfill the ones of these two hypothetical different congregations?
I'm no saint, and I know better than to get into this topic online (yes, I realize I just did), however I leave the topic with a suggestion - instead of judging others (which I believe is not why we're here), why not pray for them?

"I simply take Jesus at His Word. "

You need to study his word a bit more carefully. You are walking in dangerous territory. Remember these aren't Jesus' exact words...but they are probably pretty close. You still haven't answered my question about Jesus using a sword. Which I have asked many times over the past couple of years. You still avoid it by trying to throw some other scripture to confuse. Really quite sad.

"And regarding pharisees, I sincerely believe that the hottest place in hades is reserved for 'pro-choice' Christians: Mark 9:42 "

Herb-judge and jury? (note Pharisee)

Jesus: "Go ahead, make my day!"

I wonder how many people would still have respect for Jesus after he blew someone away!

Newflyer-
Points well taken. I will offer this as an addition to my other posts.

Scripture is sacred to me. But there are many layers, thus you have many translations and versions. This shows to me how important this book is to our world.

I merely project a different viewpoint than Herb's interpretation. So often Herb's view on scripture is is harmful and hurtful to many and doesn’t truly represent what many Christians actually believe.

Jesus lived in a time that was politically charged. His crucifixion was ultimately political when it comes to due process. But of course it’s much deeper than that on a spiritual level.

To write that pro-choice Christians are going to hell is reckless, judgmental and biblically unsound.

However I truly believe Herb feels he is correct. He firmly believes what he writes. I can respect it, but also disagree with it. I would have no problem sitting next to him in church and offering prayers for our world and us. As I have said before, just look at the 12 disciples. They disagreed too, so Herb and I are in good company.

I've a simple question:

Why does the Son of God need a gun?

Chris,

I earnestly believe you and I have a different take on who God is.

God is loving, but I don't feel he's afraid to step on some toes. Jesus did many times. I also don't believe God's a wimp when it comes to difficult issues, either.

So it's logical you would interpret Jesus saying something different about carrying a sword. I simply happen to believe the Biblical text more than me or you. And yes, Jesus is not described as carrying a sword Himself in the Bible. But one can easily ask why would He need to?

Revelation 3:16 says it better than I ever could about mealy-mouthed, PC Christianity:

So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth.

And I stand firm on my view that some of the hottest places in hell, right next to Stalin, Hitler and Pol Pot, will likely be for those who defend offing the innocent unborn. Both allowed millions upon millions to die.

And just because I have strong opinions, don't think I place myself above others, either. I'm no better than anyone on this board and am probably a whole lot worse.

PBP-GINFWMY.

Please be patient-God is not finished with me yet.

Herb

Herb, you don't know "god" any better than anyone else. What a sham people like you are!

Poor Lars! :-O

If you are no better than anybody else (and I think that's true for just about any of us, actually), does that not leave room for others to be who they are as well?

Our founders thought so.

I see you and Chris in an interesting light. Total contrasts, yet both share belief in a higher power.

The whole thing is so perfectly American.

Given this state of affairs, I'm completely sure our founders did the right thing --insuring freedom of religion. Boiled down rationally, this is essentially freedom of thought.

Your cite of Rev 3:16 does not support the carrying stand. Let's dig into that one a little huh?

"because thou" = the reader, by way of analogy in story telling

"art" = speaks to state of mind, in particular the measure of ones conviction, as seen in the next bit:

"lukewarm...[neither cold nor hot]" = this is conviction, pure and simple. One either has the character to actually take a position and stand with it, or one does not.

This suffers from translation, IMHO, because it contains redundant elements. No biggie, nothing essential is lost.

There is a deeper layer here too. The essence of the thing is "lukewarm", or having feeble convictions. A flip flopper, by way of modern reference. Also could be seen as "weak", or a stretch would be "foolhardy".

Interestingly, this only speaks to those with feeble conviction. It notably does not speak to those found not agreeable, if they are strong in their convictions!

So, those who believe, as I do for example, that abortion is wrong and needs to be addressed, but that people must choose, are perfectly within their rights to do so, so long as their reasons are clear and conviction firm.

Do you see that Herb?

Now, the last part:

"I will spue (that's a typo or error in translation, IMHO) thee out of my mouth."

This boils down to, "I reject thee", or just "rejection", as "mouth" carries some additional connotations related to "embodied in god", part of the "body of god", or simply "one with god".

Yeah, I did my Bible studies too. Didn't forget any of it --just am quite scared by it, particularly when people like you take considerable liberties with it.

Of course, you are free to do this. Just not so free to legislate it, or look down upon others having chosen to handle it with a greater measure of care than you currently appear to.

Getting back to the gun bit... nowhere does this equate strength to a means or method, other than ones own mind and will. That means strength of character, of mind and soul are traits to be favored.

A gun is none of these things. In fact, it's often a substitute for those lacking these things!

IMHO, this is no more defensible for you than it is for Lars. You both should know better.

Herb- I appreciate your honest feedback. I don't think we view God differently, I believe we view scripture differently.

You take a patriarchical viewpoint when it comes to scripture. Thus scripture has a hierarchy. Since you interpret it all literally it makes sense. No need to bring in other thoughts and other reasoning. No need to check historical references because it’s God’s Word.

Here’s where we are different. It’s God’s Word yes, but NOT God’s actual words. You seem to leave out the human element of the written word. That is not bad mind you, but it’s important to note that the early transcripts of the scriptures did not have punctuation until the 9th century. Thus interpretation was tricky. So the scribes had to re-write what was handed down orally or already written down so that it made sense to those who would read it. Those scribes would change things a bit to fit their culture.

All this to say, is that the bible you read today has seen many revisions over the centuries. This doesn’t make God’s Word any less important. But it can help in explaining the metaphorical language that appears throughout scripture.

You do a great disservice to scripture when you read it literally. There is a deeper meaning and a deeper power.

When Jesus steps on toes it’s usually the religious leaders toes. Jesus is certainly no wimp. Dying on a cross confirms this.

Like you Herb scripture is dear to me too. I like Eugene Peterson’s “The Message” or “The Cabbage Patch” version of the bible.

Here is my current favorite Bible verse from Micah. “Do justice. Love kindness, and walk humbly with your God.” To me that is the Christian mantra.

"Just not so free to legislate it..."

Partial birth abortion has now been banned, largely in part to Bible-believing Christians and no thanks to the radical left.

Herb

I am glad it's banned. Horrible procedure.

"The essence of the thing is "lukewarm", or having feeble convictions."

Agreed. Jesus had more of an issue with those who simply did not want to hear Truth, than with the adulterors, tax collectors and people like the woman at the well.

It becomes more of an issue of repentance and faith, rather than where one has been.

Herb

I believe Jesus was most concerned about legalism, pride and hypocrisy.

If I'm reading you right Herb, the religious leaders of the day did not want to hear what Jesus was saying. It was blasphemous to them. Jesus saw how hardened their hearts were and how they had twisted the law to keep control and power over the people. Sadly we still see it today.

"I believe Jesus was most concerned about legalism, pride and hypocrisy."

Then I'd say Jesus would have A LOT to be concerned about today with his current crop of followers (people like Chris excluded of course).

"If I'm reading you right Herb, the religious leaders of the day did not want to hear what Jesus was saying."

Absolutely. And along with hypocritical evangelists, there are plenty of others today who do not accept Him as Lord and Saviour, as well.

Herb

Lars should be pushing for a concealed sword permit, instead of a gun permit.

Yea...I doubt Lars can generate his own bulge.

Clap. Clap. Clap.

This is by far the best discussion of the Bible and Jesus I have seen on this board.

With very few exceptions, every post here has been civil and not aimed at insulting anyone.

PLEASE keep it up!


Edit: Hey! That was my 800th post. WATCH OUT Missing, I'm catching up! (Not hardly!)

Herb wrote:
Absolutely. And along with hypocritical evangelists, there are plenty of others today who do not accept Him as Lord and Saviour, as well.


Well Herb, since you are such an authority, who should we listen to today, Pat Robertson, perhaps the "reformed" fag from Colorado. I think you evangelicals only hear what you want to and CALL it truth.

the bible was written by Aesop ,chalk the whole thing up to another of his great fables..........

Thedude- Interesting thought. Aesop lived around 550BC (6th century). The Old Testament was written from around the 12th Century BC to about the 2nd Century BC.

So maybe Aesop could have had some input but I doubt it. It would be pretty much a miracle if he did some of the New Testament writings since they were written circa 45 AD to about 145AD. That would have been a nifty trick if he could have pulled that off.

Just clarifying some historical points for you.

the bible was not transcribed directly to any one. i believe it was told and passed on over generations and most of it is so full of bullshit it might as well be a fairytale.thanks for the the clarification though. as you point out it was {old testament} spread out over one thousand years,{new testament} one hundred years

Thedude-

Most historians (whether they are Christians or not) believe the writings in the bible to be from actual people, whether transcribed from an oral tradition or actually written by a person.

Ancient civilizations throughout the ages had their historians who wrote down, drew symbols or otherwise communicated in sophisticated languages too. We know this because through archeology humans have been doing this giving us some insight to their way of life long ago.

The same can be said about the words written in the Bible, Koran or the Jewish scriptures. People write down what is going on at that time in history. The difficult part is to understand the subtle nature of the language. Linguistic specialists have been doing this kind of work for years, and as the technology gets better we are able to extrapolate even more information than before.

Human beings through the ages have left their footprint like animals and those footprints, written, drawn or built, tell a story of the human condition at that moment. We don’t always understand it so we have to make our best guesstimate based on what we have already learned.

The same goes with the bible. There are many different stories across a large amount of human history. Not sure what you think is bullshit as far as what is written in the bible, but the words themselves have been confirmed from a mass of respected sources.

Just some more clarification. I do respect your position.

as i respect yours,are far as the bullshit lets see people resurrected from the dead,people walking on water ,parting of the red sea ,virgin births the list goes on and on,My wife is very ardent in her christian beliefs we have this conversation often, Keep posting I love to listen to any one who believes in thier posistion {not being sarcastic} i learn something new every day

Herr Herb said>>>>
I simply take Jesus at His Word. If Jesus said that we were not to defend ourselves, or that we were not to carry a weapon, I would believe that. But He says the exact opposite.

Thou shalt not murder??????? I think it's #5 or 6.....

Don't follow that commandment because it doesn't suit your POLITICAL views Herr Herb???

TheDude-Your dinnertime discussions with your wife must be interesting. How does she explain her beliefs to you?

No doubt the bible has some pretty wild stories. Some seem too unbelievable to fathom, even I question some of them myself along with noted biblical scholars. But that isn't anything new.

The way I view the very things you call BS is simply that God or whatever you choose call God even if you don't believe there is a God, is God works on a plain that is simply not on our human level. We humans want to solve everything. If there is a mystery we need to solve it. I used to love the TV show with host Robert Stack called "Unsolved Mysteries." Great stuff.

The mysteries of a resurrected Christ, raising people from the dead, Jesus walking on water and the like, are simply not explainable on a human level. The bridge, as I see it, from BS to believability is faith. Not some esoteric faith but a faith grounded in believing what Jesus said about himself is true. That bridge of faith will be different for each of us.

Also Jesus was pretty radical. I’m really drawn to that side of him.

"Thou shalt not murder??????? I think it's #5 or 6..... Don't follow that commandment because it doesn't suit your POLITICAL views Herr Herb???"

Trixter, I have advocated self defense to prevent crime. Please show me where I have advocated murder.

I didn't think so.

Please take your meds.

Herb

You don't care how many Iraqi women and children are killed or could be killed! They WERE NOT and ARE NOT the enemy! But you advocate the killing of Iraqis...

Take your meds... You've been off them for sometime. It's time for you to become a HUMAN BEING again.....

"But you advocate the killing of Iraqis... "

No.

I advocate defending the innocent. That means going after terrorists who DO kill innocent Iraqis.

Trixter, are you pulling a Kerry and saying our troops are willfully murdering innocents? If so, I'd like you to say that in person to an active duty soldier who's putting his life on the line fighting terror to keep your sorry behind safe.

Ingrate.

Moveon.commie indeed.

Herb

Herb, you have accumulated an impressive list of bogeymen. Does your fear of terrorists, socialists, war protestors and/or emancipated women keep you up at night?

So it's okay to disparage John Kerry but not General BETRAY-US?

Swiftboat hypocrite indeed.

Herb IGNORANTLY said>>>
Trixter, are you pulling a Kerry and saying our troops are willfully murdering innocents?

WHAT THE FUCK???

Your a GD idiot! And for the last FUCKING time old man I do NOT subscribe to the MOVEON crowd. Are you the most IGNORANT person on the planet or are you just so polluted with all the EXTREME RIGHT BULLSHIT that you can't even fathom that somebody might have their own opinion?
I'm sorry that your a mindless zombie that follows everything whomever on the REICH is PROGRAMING your mind. Thank the Lord above that MOST America doesn't agree with your way of thinking.
Keep it up Herr Herb you've been right on cue for the last couple weeks....
You can now return to YOUR band of idiots and your tinfoil hats.

Yeah, we have some really civilized discourse going on in here. What an embarrassment.

Why would Jesus carry a gun? He would at least have a star trek phaser.

And isnt that what the 13, later 12 guys around him are for, to carry the heat? Of course he would be sued, for not having any women assistants.

ME said>>>>
Yeah, we have some really civilized discourse going on in here. What an embarrassment.

Thanks....

At least you didn't refer to me as "Slow Eye" as you have in the past. That's a step in the right direction!

I think Jesus would be a radical guy today,but I sure do believe he would be one pissed off fellow .I remember a great Bill Hicks {greatest comedian ever} routine about the return of Christ "Jesus is back and boy is he pissed".If J.C. had the ability to come back I think he already has been here, took a look around and headed on out to parts unknown ....fast

Dude
I do like a good comedy routine, even ones that run irreverent.

I really don't think Jesus would be all that pissed off. Just very compassionate. This idea that Jesus is coming back to kick butt just doesn't jive with who he really is. I think those who try to use that kind of thinking are really saying "I'm really pissed off and I want to kick somebody's butt." However by making Jesus pissed off it allows them to somehow justify their need to kick some booty.

Just like the article that started this thread, some people will use scripture or whatever it is to justify their cause. Too bad Lars chose this kind of thinking because in the case Jesus, he would not condone it.

I find it interesting at the end of the article Lars makes it very clear that he has gun permits in Oregon and Washington. Also it states the type of gun he carries legally. What's so funny to me it's like Lars is trying to show off how big his penis is to everyone. I would never let anyone know if I was carrying heat or not. Lars loves being a target.

With statements like that he has put himself in the crossheirs....
Click
Click
Boom!
Not good....

I'm not a fan of Lars, but for the sake of his family I'd try and tone down this kind of bravado.

I don't know if this is still the case, but I understand that in Idaho it is legal to wear a sidearm, just like in the Wild West days. A friend of mine was stationed at the DOE site near Idaho falls, and he had a friend who found out about the sidearm rule, and the friend thought it was the coolest thing. So, he took to wearing a sidearm almost everywhere.

But pretty soon, he realized that it was more hassle that it was worth, because there are so many places that you cannot have a gun, be it unconcealed or whatever - banks, schools, many government buildings, etc. He'd get up to the door of his bank, then remember that he had his gun, so he'd have to walk it back to his car and lock it up, then walk back to the bank, etc. After awhile he just gave up on "packing heat".

Although, if you have a CCP, there are not a lot of places you can't legally carry.

Schools for sure you can't, I think bars are off limits too (Alcohol and Guns definitely don't mix!) and most government buildings. Oh yeah and airports!

Here are Washington's rules: http://apps.leg.wa.gov/RCW/default.aspx?cite=9.41.300

I don't know about banks though. I'll have to go back and read the rules.

As far as just walking down the street wearing a side arm, if I'm not mistaken, you can do that here too. I'm real sure that you'd get stopped and asked a lot of questions by law enforcement, but as long as you're not waving it around or brandishing it and being threatening with it, I believe that it is legal to wear one. I’m not 100% sure on this and a quick search of the WA RCW’s didn’t shed any light on it either.

i was not making the statement that if Christ returned he would come looking to kick ass,just would be disapointed in what the world has become

Dude- Christ already had some of those feelings when he was here the first time. It gets down to how people treat each other.

The dude said>>>>
i was not making the statement that if Christ returned he would come looking to kick ass,just would be disapointed in what the world has become.

And how some people use his name for thier political sake. For which I'm sure that God could care less about...

In Oregon you can carry a conceled weapon (with a ccp) onto a school, the school rules against it are for employees.

To Herb:

I assume you live in the woods near your Church as Christ stated:

"You must give up everything to enter the kingdom of heaven"

So if you own anything your just like millions of us.. "No heaven for you."

So would you, Lars and the rest of the gang stop cherry picking and misinterpeting the new testament.

What makes matters worse Lars is behind this by saying Public Schools are not safe and people with a cwp should be allowed to bring their weapons into school. But if schools were privitized then you could choose to go to a school where concealed weapons are not allowed.

So this really turns out to be another tool to get rid of all public schools.

Besides Lars and his gang are so two faced, Lars constantly states that if you have a cwp you should be able to take your concealed weapon anywhere.

However his employeer (Paul Allen) does not allow any concealed weapons into the Rose Quarter arena or grounds even though they are considered a public area by Federal, State and Local laws.

This is just grand standing to eliminate public schools and you right wingers feel for it, or maybe that's your goal.

Either way you are a group of mentally sick people. Keep on the meds Herb.

The left took God out of the schools and now they're simply reaping what they've sown.

Herb

Teaching fairy tales is not what school is for.

The left is in the minority with its atheistic socialism.

Keep calling voters stupid and you'll reap even more of what you've sown.

Herb

"Keep calling voters stupid and you'll reap even more of what you've sown."

Can we call the stupid voters stupid? Because there are stupid voters out there. And by stupid I mean ill informed and/or apathetic. If a voter doesn't understand the candidates or the issues, or simply doesn't care, then that voter is stupid and shouldn't be voting. An ill-informed vote is worse than no vote at all.

Don't know if all of these are true, but something to think about.

KNOW THESE FACTS?

Death is certain but the Bible speaks about untimely death!

It is written in the Bible (Galatians 6:7):

"Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap.

Here are some men and women who mocked God:

John Lennon (Singer):

Some years before, during his interview with an American Magazine, he said: "Christianity will end, it will disappear. I do not have to argue about that. I am certain. Jesus was ok, but his subjects were too simple, today we are more famous than Him" (1966).

Lennon, after saying that the Beatles were more famous than Jesus Christ, was shot six times.


Tancredo Naves (President of Brazil):
During the Presidential campaign, he said if he got 500,000 votes from his party, not even God would remove him from Presidency. Sure he got the votes, but he got sick a day before being made President, then he died...


Cazuza (Bi-sexual Brazilian composer, singer and poet): During A show in Canecio (Rio de Janeiro), while smoking his cigarette, he puffed out some smoke into the air and said: "God, that's for you." He died at the age of 32 of AIDS in a horrible manner.


The man who built the Titanic, after the construction of Titanic, a reporter asked him how safe the Titanic would be.

With an ironic tone he said: "Not even God can sink it"

The result? I think you all know what happened to the Titanic.

Marilyn Monroe (Actress)

She was visited by Billy Graham during a presentation of a show. He said the Spirit of God had sent him to preach to her. After hearing what the Preacher had to say, she said: "I don't need your Jesus".

A week later, she was found dead in her apartment.

Bon Scott (Singer)
The ex-vocalist of the AC/DC. On one of his 1979 songs he sang: "Don't stop me, I'm going down all the way, down the highway to hell".

On the 19th of February 1980, Bon Scott was found dead, he had been choked by his own vomit.


Campinas (IN 2005)
In Campinas, Brazil a group of friends, drunk, went to pick up a friend. The mother accompanied her to the car and was so worried about the drunkenness of her friends and she said to the daughter holding her hand, who was already seated in the car: "My Daughter, Go With God and May He Protect you...”

She responded: "Only If He (God) Travels in the Trunk, because inside Here.....It's already full”

Hours later, news came that they had been involved in a fatal accident, everyone had died. The car could not be recognized what type of car it had been, but surprisingly, the trunk was intact.

The police said there was no way the trunk could have remained intact. To their surprise, inside the trunk was a crate of eggs, none was broken.

Christine Hewitt (Jamaican Journalist and entertainer) said the Bible (Word of God) was the worst book ever written.

In June 2006 she was found burnt beyond recognition in her motor vehicle.

Many more important people have forgotten that there is no other name that was given so much authority as the name of Jesus.

Many have died, but only Jesus died and rose again, and he is still alive.

"Jesus"

"If you are embarrassed about me, I will also be embarrassed about you before my father."

"If a voter doesn't understand the candidates or the issues, or simply doesn't care, then that voter is stupid and shouldn't be voting."

Doesn't understand them, according to who? Many Americans still believe in an Iraq-9/11 connection and I happen to be one of them. Terrorists network, just like Fidel Castro and Nikita Kruschev. Maybe the left is the wrong one.

Herb

"Doesn't understand them, according to who?"

Ill informed, lacking facts, lacking exposure to multiple perspectives on the issue or the candidates, etc.. In all sincerity, you Herb are an excellent example of a *not stupid* voter. You participate vigorously in political discourse, you expose yourself to a variety of opinions (this board, for one). You have the facts, and you make your decisions. Many can and will disagree with your conclusions and reasoning, but it is rare when you are uninformed.

The word "ignorance" is somewhat benign, but when you call a voter "stupid" you are more directly challenging them to be an informed participant in democracy. It's confrontational and not wholly accurate, but it works.

A 9/11-Iraq connection has been discredited, in case you didn't hear.

Do you believe in the tooth fairy as well? How about Bigfoot?

No. But unlike the left, I realize that terrorists join forces whenever feasible.

Rather than hand-wring about the conspiracy of Watergate, how about concern for something that matters right now, like the conspiracy of terror?

Naw, I didn't think so. Democrats-the party of Hanoi Jane.

Herb

Herb said>>>>
The left is in the minority with its atheistic socialism.

All left leaning humans are atheists and Socialists??
Your showing your elitism Herr Herb.
It's your way or the highway??
The left is in the minority??? Huh? Care to prove that with facts???
Your EXTREME RIGHT thoughts are in the MINORITY.

Herb spewed forth crap>>>
Naw, I didn't think so. Democrats-the party of Hanoi Jane.

That statement is just crap! It's like saying neo-CONism the party of Tap dancer/Flip-Flopper Larry Craig.

How about YOUR EXTREME THINKING??? Tell ALL of us here the down side to that??? Set it out there for ALL of us here on this messageboard to see Herr Herb. Show us how YOUR EXTREME ways are the way.....

Still waiting...

And I think you will be for a while.

Still waiting for what?

The Democratic party has never condemed Jane Fondas remarks about the military, or for that matter John Kerrys. They have invited them both to speak at various functions.

So you're still waiting too. You keep waiting for that and get hung up on it. Don't let it make you actually DO anything.

Just wait.

Let's see who has to go the bathroom first!

Skybill, exactly were is he then???

WOW!
Silence speaks volumes about Herb and his way....

Remember, the last time Jesus was here, in physical form', he didnt carry a sword, but some of his disciples did.

Nwokie please name the disciples that carried swords.

We're waiting....

http://www.worldmagblog.com/blog/archives/031608.html
thats onehttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrest_of_Jesus

thats 2, want more?

MORE!!!!

More, more, more!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHmvkRoEowc

Parody of the above video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xiuRhy4CqzU

Nwokie-
I prefer biblical scholars and other theologians and some clergy I know to help understand this sword thing.

The line of thought here is that more than likely Simon Peter grabbed a sword from a soldier or someone with authority and used it to cut off the servants ear.

I doubt Simon Peter brought a sword to the garden that evening even though Jesus knew what was about to happen. But the sword is just a minor part of the story, the fact that Jesus healed a lowly servant in front of his master and others, and the fact that Jesus never carried a sword or for that matter even used it, is the real crux of the events in the garden.

We can get so caught up in this "sword" thing that we miss the more important issues. That's why most pastors I know have to know their Greek and Hebrew pretty good to understand the subtle nature that scripture often has in its pages.

I think a couple of the disciples would have been armed, as they felt their mission was to serve and protect Jesus. While Jesus didn't need protection, I think the disciples would have been prudent, and kept a weapon handy.

IMHO, that's more like tolerating the custom in order to better serve the greater purpose. Not the same thing as carrying.

To better support what Chris is trying to get across, here is some clown comparing Jesus and Hitler.

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/09/24/glenn-beck-jesus-and-hitler-had-a-lot-i n-common/

There is a clip there. If you've a few minutes and some bandwidth, it's worth a watch.

The point here is not to flame, but to illustrate the dangers of projecting that which we think is "good" onto religion, then use that to justify other actions.

This is a circular thing. It's self-referencing and therefore false on form. The only reason people actually buy into this crap is that it reinforces some element of their character or behavior difficult to justify otherwise.

"A new command I give you: Love one another. As I have loved you, so you must love one another. By this all men will know you are my disciples, if you love one another." (John 13:34)

"Blessed are the peacemakers, for they will be called sons of God." (Matthew 5:9)

-- Jesus Christ, pacifist

"I believe that what people call God is something in all of us. I believe that what Jesus and Mohammad and Buddha and all the rest said was right. It's just that the translations have gone wrong. You've got to get down to your own God in your own temple. It's all down to you, mate."

-- John Lennon, pacifist

I think Chris is absolutely right, but if the Bible will not quickly unify us on this, maybe the Beatles will help. Nothing is bigger than The Beatles and Jesus Christ. :o)

This is the beauty of the scriptures. We all get something different out of it.

Nwokie you might be right because the disciples were seemingly always getting things wrong or misunderstanding Jesus' words or better yet his illustrations.

I seriously doubt the disciples did carry any swords. Why should they? The Lord had asked them to a garden to pray. Why on earth carry a weapon to such a peaceful place?

Also if they did carry a weapon it would have been recognizable instantly by the soldiers and seen as an aggressive posture by the disciples, which just wasn't Jesus style at all.

Again-Jesus words are about the sword (a metaphor), not an actual sword. This seems to be the tripping point.

Nothing quite like the image of disciples beheading people turning folks on to Jesus -- not!

Good grief people, you're turning Jesus into Dirty Harry. Feeling lucky?

I never said they used them, but it was common for folks to carry them at the time, there were a lot of bandits in between the cities, and a lot of people didnt like jews, and a lot of jews didnt like Jesus and his group.

The disciples would have considered it their duty, to protect their teacher and leader.

Nwokie-
Look at the disciples. What a mix bag of men. Tax collector, fishermen, a revolutionist and ordinary men of the day.

Jesus was able to pull these 12 together along with others to create quite a stir in the community. Remember the people were looking for some kind of "warrior savior." But Jesus didn't come that way. Humble beginnings, to learning the skill of carpentry which was common in those days. Nothing about Jesus' surroundings indicated anything out of the ordinary...until he spoke.

That's what drew these very different men to Jesus. Like Skep has indicated, Jesus didn't need to carry a sword nor did his disciples during his ministry.

Good chance Judas carried a sword sometime before meeting Jesus because of his background, but even Jesus was able to cool this zealot’s hot headedness.

You see Nwokie-It's Jesus the man and his message that makes the changes in others. Jesus had the ultimate protector, he didn't need disciples to double as centurions.

Granted he didnt need them, but his disciples probably saw it different. And his disciples had to be worried about the nuts, and the Jewish leaders, who saw him as a threat. As well as the money lenders etc.

Ironically it was those same 12....or 11 that were nowhere to be found during his trial and crucifixion.

Not much you can do against a Roman legion.
Besides he told them not to interfere.