Let the reports roll in...

We now join " HD Radio Ramblings (cont)" already in progress.

How's 1640 KDZR sounding around the metro?

Was 1640 on in HD last night? Too much skywave stuff on 1630-1650 for me to tell (from Hillsboro). Ditto for 1330 (1320-1340 covered by skywave).
KEX was solid in HD, but I could hear stations on 1180 (KOFI Kakispel) and 1200 (Radio Humsafar) by rotating my loop to null out the KEX IBOC signal.

I didn't go out to my car to listen but heard the sidebands of KDZR on my Superadio last night. KKPZ goes off the air early so wasn't on that late, as usual.

Yesterday evening, I was hearing what sounded like IBOC hiss over KKAD. The hiss seemed to be on 1540 and 1550 kHz but not 1560.

I think that would have been KFBK 1530 Sacramento CA had a near solid HD lock on them last night.

I drove around listening tonight and the only indication I had was first adjacent noise on the local HD stations. That's it! By the way, KKPZ isn't running HD at night yet. I wonder why.

KKPZ probably doesn't have their Night time pattern in place for their HD system.

possibly sounds like KGO has the same issue but it will take time for AM HD stations that are directional at night to get their arrays setup for digital.

correction: KGO is HD tonight hearing their sidebands on 800 and 820 right now also trying to get their ID.

KKPZ uses the same power and directional signal all the time. It sounds like they are on the air right now, judging by what sounds like digital sidebands but I don't want to go out to the car and wake up my wife when the dog starts barking. Side point: Would anyone like a dog? I can't afford very much so please, take pity on me. By the way, They're running spanish music that sounds like a satellite feed! Format change? I hear something on 820 but it doesn't sound like an IBOC sideband, merely noise. I hear nothing interfering with KPDQ, which is definitely a fringe signal in this area at night.

I saw the "KGO" call letters a few times but did not get a HD lock (HD indicator just blinks).

trying 810 up here but no luck not even the ID is showing up.

I heard a ton of sideband noise on KGO last night around 3:00 am here in Centralia.

I just did an early bandscan looking for some gray-line propagation. I saw indications of HD transmission on the following frequencies:

680 (only once perhaps It was 690)
690
810
1070
1110 (only once)
1160
1190
1330
1530
1640

KEX,1190 was the ONLY one that locked into HD

JVC car stereo HD light flashing on 810 KGO & 1530 KFBK Friday night and tonight, but not strong enough to produce call letters. I can hear the upper HD sideband of KGO on 820.

KFBK has an awesome signal. Check out their site at http://www.fybush.com/sites/2005/site-051028.html .

In SE Portland, KEX, KKPZ, and KDZR all lock (duh!), in Tigard, KEX is steady, KKPZ wouldn't lock, and I got the occasional lock from KDZR.

Does 680 KNBR have HD?

I know 1070 KNX does, but KFXX tends to blot it out.

1150 KXMG seemed to blot out 1160 KSL, but one time I had a really clear signal but no light.

Need to get out of town after dark!

While driving home, I was able to see a blinking HD indicator on 810, 1070, 1160 and 1530. KGO didn't show up until I was nearly home. KPDQ may have been blocking it. I was still tracking KFBK as close as Mt Scott! Other than local signals, nothing locked on but I wouldn't expect them to. Everything was pretty weak. Soon, I'll drive out past Wilsonville to get a better idea.

Re: Kent's post above.

I had no idea that KNX was HD! Here in Centralia, I hear no interference at all on 1060 or 1080.

Just last night while driving home from work I listened to CKMX in perfect AM Stereo on 1060! It's so strong that you'd think it was a local here!

Someone correct me if I'm wrong, but don't the HD signals run at 1/100th of the analog power? That might explain why HD DXing is so difficult.

They run at 1% of assigned analog power because it's roughly equivalent to the signal within the protected contour. You don't need that much power with digital in order to cover the same space.

Kent_randles asked:

"Does 680 KNBR have HD?"

I just checked the Ibiquity site and did not find it. I would also question if CBU (690) has HD? I don't think the IBOC system is used in Canada yet. But HD indications on 680/690 repeated throughout the evening...my first HD image?

Indications on 1110 also repeated several times, perhaps this signal is from KFAB (50 Kw, Omaha), which I can sometimes hear over KBND. Last night, I was hearing mostly KBND, but the HD could have been a "station under the station".

I know that 1% power is true for FM HD, but as I remember, the level allowed for AM stations is higher than that.

I don't think IBOC is used in Canada they already have Eureka L band DAB. Those indications you got on 1110 was most likely KDIS Los Angeles a Radio Disney station.

680 KNBR is not on the hdradio.com list. KGO is the only San Francisco station with HD of the stations that we can normally hear at night

1070 KNX is not on the Los Angeles list anymore, so I was mistaken. 1110 KDIS is on the list, and I hear there was a time that with both of them having HD, there was some noise on 1090 XEPRS in L.A.

580 KMJ is on the list, I can hear them, but we're not in a lobe so we won't get much signal locally.

1160 KSL is on the list.

670 KBOI is on the list.

I just checked:

http://www.hdradio.com/

and found 1070 on the LA list (about # 40 or so). I still have no explanation for the indications on 680/690, unless 670 KBOI has really confused my HD receivers.

KBOI will not be doing HD @ night. Directional is not compliant with the mask.

I had the HD light come on my HD radio a few times at night here and there before stations turned the HD on at night.

I think the receiver is just confusing some other noise for HD signal.

Driving I5 north tonight KEX HD was gone to analog by about Woodland.

I noted spotty reception of KGO HD most of the way from Woodland to Olympia. Their high frequencies sounded a bit shrill. None the less full HD audio and text on 810!

I also noted that KFBX HD came in even better than KGO along the same route. HD audio on KFBK sounded cleaner than either KGO or KEX. KFBK HD does not have the shrill HF.

Digital DX is here!!

**using Kenwood HD car stereo.

I have never received ll10(the old KRLA)before! I can't imagine it coming in well enough to even begin to light up HD indicators! I'm a little rusty at this DXing game but unless something new has been added and it probably has, Bend and Omaha are the most likely suspects.

The station in Bend on 1110 has HD? did not know that never saw it on the list. Omaha is out of this NE is too far away the SNR of the digital portion would be too low to even light the HD indicator on most receivers. I still think it was KDIS 1110 but you never know.

did some research and found the most likely culprit for the HD indications on 670 it is possibly KLTT Denver CO a religious station.

I didn't mean to say KBND was running HD, only that they come in regularly at night. I'm leaning toward Omaha at this point. I wonder if something else might cause the falsing.

Unfortunately, no one in Bend is interested in running HD (or even streaming online) at this point.

It looks like KFAB Omaha is indeed an HD station.

In a quick bandscan Sunday night, I found that the IBOC sidebands from KGO do cause some interference to KPDQ-AM, as heard in Hillsboro. The only other places that I remember hearing digital sideband noise were around KEX, KKPZ, KDZR, and KFBK. On that last one, I heard noise over KGDD, but at the time, I mistakenly thought that something was wrong with their audio feed. The 1540/1550 noise was also there, at times.


Here is a question for the people who do have HD receivers: has anyone been able to get stable reception of the HD audio on skywave signals? What type of receiver and antenna were used? Or, does the HD audio only cut in periodically?

I have been able to get stable skywave HD reception mainly on KFBK 1530 the receiver used here is a Radio Shack Accurian HD table radio and the antenna is a 1,000 FT longwire antenna.

I had stable reception of KFBK HD while driving up I-5 between PDX and Seattle. Very solid signal.

KGO was cutting in and out. once i got close enough to KGNW's 5kw night signal (820) KGO HD dissapeared.

see above post.

I have not had stable HD DX reception from Hillsboro, only intermittent HD lock on KGO and KFBK, using a 100 ft longwire (and playing with small tuned loops). I mostly use a Sangean HDT-1, and an old first generation Sanyo car radio (EDC-HD1990M). However, one of the longest HD locks that I got on KGO was with a BA receptor using just it's 5 inch square loop! Many people have said that this radio has poor sensitivity, but mine seems to be pretty good!

1330 and 1640 HD are pretty much wiped out at night by skywaves...KEX is really the only AM HD station that I get stable reception on at night.

Got a flashing HD light on 1070 KNX and 1160 KSL this evening while driving with the JVC car stereo. Gotta assume that they lifted the nighttime HD mute wire while doing maintenance this morning.

Only call letters from 1530 KFBK so far.

getting IDs from KGO 810, KSL 1160, and KFBK 1530 tonight so far again only getting audio on KFBK 1530. Now I am excited about this as someone who has been into AM DX for several years I am starting to see the authorization of HD AM at night as giving a whole new possibility for AM DXers.

In Centralia I got solid lock on the following stations / frequencies:

KGO 810
KNX 1070
KFBK 1530
KSL 1160

Here's something that I thought was really cool! I got Solid HD lock on 1070. However, CKMX on 1060 and KFXX on 1080 still come in rock solid with no HD interference! The next step is to see if I hear any noise on CKMX in stereo.

HD light comes on for the following, but no digital lock:

640 KFI
1190 KEX
1640 KDZR (!)

A couple of others as well that slip my mind.

I'll take notes tomorrow night before I leave work.

Noise Free CKMX in Stereo!

This is pretty exciting news! It appears that HD radio won't be the total death of Analog DXing!

Lots of "hash" on KPDQ 800 now on my early morning commute where KGO comes in well and out SE of PDX...noticable interference/noise.

I tried some of the DX target stations people have mentioned and got none of them. No KNX, KGO, KSL or any others. I don't see how anyone in Portland could get KNX with KFXX at 1080 and CKMX completely wiping out KNX's digital on 1060.

I'll keep trying though. Maybe I'll have more luck. KSL and KFBK sound like good targets.

Oddly, I received all of our local HD stations (KEX, KKPZ and KDZR) perfectly all night. No reception problems at all.

KSL and KFBK are excelent targets for nighttime HD reception if at first you don't get the ID just keep trying eventually it will happen. CKMX is strong enough to over power the digital sidebands from KNX listening to them right now in full C-QUAM stereo I must say they have a heck of a signal here one of the strongest on the band at night.

Check out CKMX's night pattern. We're not even in their main lobe. What a signal!

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=CKMX&service=AM&status=F&hours=N

that is what I have been saying for a long time now they do have a heck of a signal. I wish I could say the same about their translator it is on 6.030 MHz in the 49 meter shortwave band running about 30 watts not much power but it can be heard down here occasionally.

Unfortunately, 1050 KORE interferes with 1060 CKMX in my neck of the woods.

1080 isn't all that strong on the south end of town. It isn't that you can't hear it clearly; it just doesn't block anything out.

Is anyone having trouble with getting HD lock on 1640 KDZR during the daytime? Both last night on my way home and again this morning, I would get the HD pilot light, but only about a quarter of a second lock every couple of minutes...

Also, I noticed last week when I tuned in to KDZR that it would take about 10 seconds to lock onto the HD signal, where KEX takes about 3 seconds, even when KDZR was giving me a really good signal level...

Sounds like more adjusting probably needs to happen...

dark, maybe its your radio... poor performance on weak AM signals is a sign that your tuner may not be properly grounded.

While your analog signal strength might look good, consider that the KDZR signal is still much weaker than KEX. I just compared the 2 signals on a spectrum analyzer on an antenna (not perfect, but decent). The KDZR signal looks very good against the NRSC mask, but the digital carriers are only about 15 db above the noise floor of the AM band. For comparison, KEX's digital carriers are about 35 db above the noise floor.

Darkstar:

From Hillsboro, I start loosing KDZR (and KKPZ) HD to skywave signals before sunset. At what times are you trying for reception ?

PS: KEX is solid here at night, but the "stereo" indicator on my old first-generation Sanyo car radio blinks off sometimes, indicating only "core" mode reception.

On the downside, last night I noticed that the digital sidebands from KFBK were causing severe interference to KGDD and could be heard very distinctly over KKAD. These observations were made from Hillsboro.

Notalent: Pretty sure it isn't a grounding issue... I still get excellent regular AM performance (I can hear 1600 KOHI fairly well in Wilsonville)...

Jr_tech: Yesterday afternoon @ about 4pm and again this morning around 7:30...

Yesterday in particular, I was on I-5 north getting ready to get on the flyover ramp to 217 when I decided to flip over to 1640, I though it was strange that I had the HD pilot but no signal, so I checked 1330 and it was coming in just fine. Kinda strange that the 5 kw station was good and the 10 kw station wasn't.

Hmm, I'll have to check again on my way home tonight (probably about 4:30pm).

Well, sure enough, I decided to go jump in the car to see if 1640 would lock on the HD and it did without any issues (still takes about 10 seconds though). I even get the ST pilot light here...

Chrisweiss: Now I'm real curious what your spectrum analyzer would have shown last night or this morning :-)

Well I finally got an ID from KGO last night. The trick seems to be to wait and wait and wait and wait and eventually whatever distant analog station that's blocking one of the sidebands will fade out enough for your HD station to sneak in and pass enough bytes for the ID. All of the DX stations have a strong analog station next to them where I am so I don't think I'll ever get a second of sound from them.

Also, it seems like one third of the AM stations are broadcasting that "Coast to Coast" phone in program. It's weird to hear the same show several places on the dial.

Coast to Coast AM is almost impossible not to hear because it is on many AM stations so I would have to say that is correct I can't even say how many times I have run across this show while scanning the AM band for distant stations at night.

Click on a State. Then scroll down to see affiliates:

http://www.coasttocoastam.com/info/wheretolisten.html

Not having an IBOC receiver myself, I'm reading the comments from those who do with interest. I think it's funny how hard it seems to be to recover digital audio via skywave from blowtorches like KGO and KFBK. Listening to the analog consequences of their digital signals it sure seems like there's a heck of a lot of damage being done for very little benefit. If I were running KPDQ I would certainly take issue with the harmful interference from KGO at night. The noise floor on 800 on the east side of Portland is significantly higher now. I wonder how badly KGNW on 820 in Seattle is getting hurt.

Now KPDQ complaing about KGO that is COMEDY!!

No different than moving next door to a radio tower and then complaining about the RF...

No different that moving next door to a nightclub and then complaining that there is a whole lot of noise at night!!

KPDQ chose to be right next to a giant. They have no right to complain now. especially at night.

If you ask me KPDQ should be the ones to shut down at night or move.

I agree that KPDQ has no basis for a complaint of analog sideband splatter from KGO, but this IBOC interference is just ridiculous. It hoses the first and second adjacents on both sides!

As for KPDQ's night authority I think it's one of many former daytimers that never should have been allowed on the air at night. 1360 and 1550 are two other local examples.

Notalent: Where do they move? To 1290? Even the expanded band is filling up.

I think it's ridiculous when a 50,000 watt station from 400 miles away interferes with a 500 watt local station on an adjacent channel...and I live just 12 miles away (maybe) from the local transmitter.

Such is the challenge I'll face when I try to listen to NHL Coyotes games this season on their radio flagship, 1060 KDUS, wading through hiss generated by KNX 1070.

It's been interesting to watch the DX and interference reports from the northwest, and compare them to what I'm hearing here in the desert. With all the issues, I still can't believe IBOC got approved for AM.

When we talk about "former daytimers", it usually refers to stations that were given some kind of "token" nighttime power based on the second hour of post sunset authority. None of these stations are afforded any protection at all and must accept any interference that comes their way. In the case of 1360 and 1550, both designed directional signals that provide full protection. 800 is a Mexican clear and that protection was greatly reduced, allowing US stations to broadcast at night. Strictly speaking, KXL is essentially a former daytimer and without them, KEX would basically have the band to themselves!

I mentioned 1360 and 1550 because they were both fully "occupied" already. 1360 in Tacoma and 1550 in San Francisco used to put very nice signals into the Portland area. I view adding more nighttime service on those frequencies in this area as littering. On the other hand, when KXL went on at night they didn't hurt anybody, except for DXers like me who liked to hear WSB once in a while.

Last night I was hearing a lot of co-channel inteference over KKAD (this time from other analog signals on 1550 kHz, not IBOC) while driving on I5 between Barbur Blvd. and downtown Portland. I found this surprising, as the null in KKAD's night pattern appears to shoot through the far eastern parts of Portland only ( http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/pat?call=KKAD&service=AM&status=L&hours=N )

looks the same here from what I am seeing it looks like IBOC on AM at night can both help and hurt DXers. Before nighttime IBOC went into effect with a directional antenna I used to be able to hear KCJJ 1630 from Iowa City Iowa with a communications receiver and their night signal is about 1 KW!

There must be no IBOC around 1250 because last night I could get KDZC San Antonio on my little Eton E5 for a little while. Funny how I couldn't get WOAI though

there is KWSU 1250 in Pulman Washington but I don't think they are running IBOC at night. Very interesting never got Texas on the AM broadcast band but did get Illinois, Iowa and at one point it sounded like Missouri.

Scott, KMO and KKHI were not supposed to be here. KMO was a regional channel in another region and KKHI was a Class II. The only reason it came in so well was because its signal happened to be aimed toward us but they never had any special skywave rights. It was a little like "bonus coverage" on FM: It's nice if you can get it. On the other hand, how can there be a fulltime station on 630 in Monterrey CA? The last time I was there, it came in just fine as did KFI!

I should complain about KPDQ interfering with KGO. Driving down I-84 in Hollywood district towards Lloyd Center, if KPDQ is playing music, the splatter drowns out KGO at times. I would guess that KGO has more listeners at night than KPDQ in Portland.

Jimbo...I agree. KPDQ is another daytimer that should have stayed that way. I was working for KPDQ when they first went on at night and took more than my share of angry phone calls from fellow KGO listeners.

Semoochie...whether or not KMO or KKHI were supposed to be here at night, they both sounded like locals at night and those strong skywave signals severely compromise local coverage of KUIK and KKAD still today. All in all I think the MW band in the US has been grossly mismanaged over the last several years. And it continues today with the insanity known as IBOC. Next on the agenda will probably be QSL cards issued by DOTs for reception of their traffic signal switching power supplies!

The whole "daytimer" idea was a bad one! Stations were successful for awhile but it was just a matter of time before most of them sank. Long ago, they should have taken several of the quieter regionals and turned them into locals. That would have taken care of the small towns. The bigger cities never should have had authorized anything less than a full power regional channel. I realize there are numerous instances where the market has outgrown the station's signal but that's another topic for another day.

let them roll in.

As I write this Sunday night, KGO is not transmitting IBOC. I am not sure whether this is due to equipment issues at KGO or if it was due to interference complaints.

I traded e-mail today with Erik Kuhlmann, CC's Western Regional Director of Engineering.

640 KFI won't have HD Radio working for a couple more months. They are installing a new transmitter.

I'm surprised they would use it with their present antenna.

I wonder what made my HD light come on for 640 the other night if KFI isn't broadcasting HD at night.

KGO HD is back on this morning...hearing the interference again on 800/KPDQ

KFI got permission to replace the tower into which the plane crashed. The new one will be about 100' shorter but have a 50' diameter top-loading hat on it.

Erik said the new transmitter will allow them to do 20 kW with HD on the backup tower. They're at 25 kW now.

noticing moderate HD interference from KNX 1070 Los Angeles to CKMX 1060 Calgary tonight. The stereo signal still comes in but with a severely elevated noise floor.

HD nois is not compliant with good dxing!

Hey, welcome back, 62kgw!!

Where? All I hear on 620 is KPOJ.

hasKPDQ800 filed some sort of complaint to FCCabput the noise interference?If not,why not?

I seem to recall there is another 800 i BC canada, not to mention X-rock 80!??do they care?

what is the most time sny of you has benn able to listen to 810 digitalkgo-hd? more than a second or two?minutes? hours?

I was only able to get the ID but might have gotten audio for a few seconds at the most.

The locks that I have observed on HD DX have only been from a few seconds to a few minutes. When KGO locks into HD, all the noise and "monkey chatter" disappears, but it sounds sort of "shrill" to me.

Welcome back, 62 !

it is a little shrill that is a side effect of all codecs when encoding at low bit-rates if I remember right the bit-rate for AM IBOC is about 32K normally and about 16K or so in core mode. On FM stations the total bandwidth is about 112K and that can be split up in 3 streams.

ONE MUNUTE KEX IS TRYING TO PROMOTE HD RADIO, THE NEXT MINUTE THEY ARE TRYING TO SELL CC RADIOSAND TWIN COIL FERRITE ANTENA.BOTHHD AD CC ALLEDEGY HAVE BEST SOUND AND BEST RECEPTION.HUHHICH(CC OR HD)?? IS BETTER1190?

To answer the Canadian questions:

(1) IBOC was approved for use in Canada earlier this year, but I'm not aware of any stations using it yet, though they may be testing. Digital has been such a flop in this country, the regulator (CRTC) is getting desperate and has taken an "anything that might work" approach to regulation of digital radio. Vancouver is the only market in Western Canada that has ever broadcast digitally.

(2) the only 800 KHz station in British Columbia now is CKOR in Penticton, which only runs 500 watts at night (non-directional). The Vancouver area 800 station surrendered their license about a decade ago, effectively merging with the station on 1040 KHz.

really Vancouver was the only market in western Canada to have Eureka-147 transmissions available I did not know that but when you think about it that makes sense Vancouver is rather large but then again so is Calgary, Edmonton, and Saskatoon.

You could add the metro populations of Calgary(about 1,000,000), Edmonton(about 1,000,000) and Saskatoon(233,000) together and it would just about add up to the population of the Vancouver Metro. That doesn't even count the 160,000 or so in the Abbotsford Metro, which is reasonably close to VanGroovy, but considered its own metro for statistical purposes.(same media market, though--kind of like how Salem is to Portland. not much, if any radio or tv of its own.)

Heck, the Eugene-Springfield and Salem metro areas respectively have higher populations than Saskatoon! Saskatoon just isn't that big. I've heard it has a great university, though.

Eureka-147 didn't take off very well in Vancouver because:

a) few, if any wanted to buy the new equipment required to recieve it, and

b) With Vancouver's terrain, L band signals get wiped out in short order making solid reception in some locales impossible. Regular FM and TV signals are a challenge as well. Heck, even at Vancouver's waterfront on the south side of Burrard Inlet(Canada Place, Coal Harbour Park, etc.), I was having a difficult time just getting some of the strongest local FM stations to sound decent.

I can actually get the AM 800 from British Columbia here(20km SW of McMinnville) at night--it wipes out what little signal KPDQ-AM sends this direction and KGO's sidebands.

I was staying at Sol Duc Hot Springs up in the Olympic National Park last Thursday, and the cabin came with a little clock-radio type set. I fired it up looking for a little "mood music" (if you know what I mean, nudge nudge, wink wink, saynomore) and got zip on FM. Switched to AM and the only strong station on the dial was 1190 K-E-X!

shrill audio+noise is here!