http://www.reuters.com/article/domesticNews/idUSN1332355120070913?feedType=RSS&f eedName=domesticNews&rpc=22&sp=true

If not for brave men like General Petraeus, leftists over at the New York Slimes would be speaking Farsi. That they would actually print such slanderous material insinuating this patriot is a traitor and betraying his country, is an outrage.

Classic socialist moves from moveon.commie

Herb

Just like Sean Hannity, the extreme right will try and try again to change the subject of the war. I don't blame you, if I backed such an unpopular and disastrous policy, I'd be trying to change the subject as well.

Problem is, your capital is spent and you're running on fumes.

We'll see how the "left" fares in 2008, because here's what it's gonna come down to: Vote GOP to continue war, vote Democrat to end it. With 70% of the population against the war, the GOP will have their clocks cleaned! Mark my words.

In fact, the GOP has just given up one Senate seat already: Mark Warner, the talented and popular former Governor of VA will run for Republican John Warner's Senate seat. I'll chalk up his win right now.

EXTREMEIE SPIN

Spin on Herr Herb

OK, People, it's another mind-numbing blaring proclamation thread from Chicken Little.

Please, just for once, try smashing your fingers with a hammer before you respond to this crapola. I'm so f'n sick of reading it and giving him the glee of dignifying him with a response. Why bother? What's the point? Do you really think he's ever going to think to himself, let alone admit, "gosh, now there's something to consider"?

Just consider the source. Not Herb, but moveon.org and the NY Times.

Each organization on their own is enough to make me puke, but together it's enough to give me diarrhea and the pukes. Sorry for the graphic, but moveon.org is so disgusting that to me they are nothing but a shit disturbing commie, pinko group of F'ing morons.

You could put the combined intelligence from both groups on the head of a pin.

If I see anything from either organization, I just ignore it for the propaganda, lies and BULLSHIT that it is!

Refer to my post in another thread when I use this term; I HATE moveon.org.

skybill sez: "Sorry for the graphic, but moveon.org is so disgusting that to me they are nothing but a shit disturbing commie, pinko group of F'ing morons."

Now you know EXACTLY how many of us feel about the Bush administration.

This is not a solid way to go Skybill.

Every organization has spin. All of them have bias. All of them lie, about something or other.

It's not about who is smarter --frankly they are all smart enough, otherwise they would not have the capacity to be organized!

It's not their bias either. Everybody has that.

Remember kids, if the facts were complete, we would not have any need for opinion! Therefore, bias is a fact of life, no matter who, where, how, or why something is published.

Read what you will, but consider the facts found across the board.

Nobody would be speaking farsi. After 9/11 nearly the entire world was united with us! We could have gotten nearly anything we asked for, largely because we were attacked and we were strong leaders, who had changed much of the world for the better.

That was not, and is not the threat today.

Say what you want. There is a LOT wrong with this status report in general. Lots of information lies in contradiction with other established sources of information --up to and including lots of ground reports from the region.

This general really should step up and say it like it is. He's having to play the middle and that's essentially selling out.

If you are outraged, maybe it's just a bit smarter to go do some real digging and look at the charges made, the known facts and see if it adds up.

This is what I am not seeing, and I should be seeing this, long before the outrage sets in.

If you read an opinion on this matter, look for the core propaganda techniques being used. Look for errors in reasoning and co-mingling of the issues.

All I see on this is either contradictory facts, which should not exist in the number they do, or "outrage" and "blame" placed on the sources of this contradictory information.

You might "hate" moveon.org, but that's not constructive any more than "hating" the ACLU is!

Let's see where they have it wrong! If they have it wrong, and that's supportable, then there is some reason for outrage.

Trust me, if the people asking these tough questions have it wrong, it will be published quickly and easily. They will look like asses rather quickly and the whole thing ends up harming them enough to marginalize them.

So, why are they not marginalized yet?

BECAUSE THEY DON'T REALLY HAVE IT WRONG.

Could it be, the "outrage" really comes from knowing deep down, you might be supporting a bunch of self-serving, immoral, asses!

If all the commentary is focused on "the left", "commies", etc... then there is a serious problem; namely, denial.

Our efforts there are not going well. We are not even honest about what the mission is!

It's not dealing with terror, unless one sees Saddam switching to euros as an act of terror. (there is a case for that, but nobody ever made it)

It's not liberating the Iraqi people for "freedom", unless one thinks putting the multi-nationals in control of the oil, filling all the rebuilding jobs with our expensive contractors, and installing a government that wrote a constitution declaring the Koran to be the highest law of the land, freedom.

It's not "fighting them there" so "we don't have to fight them here" either. We could be attacked at any time, right now, today. There isn't some magic grade school rules of engagement going on here.

It's not "taking out Saddam" for the benefit of the Iraqi people either. We didn't like Saddam because he tried to leverage his oil reserves, not because of how he treated the Iraqis.

Want proof of that?

Look at all the other asshole dictators, who treat their people like crap, that we do not deal with.

Why is that?

OIL my friends. That's the end game here.

BTW, that's spelled LIE, for those in the know.

Short story?

Nobody wants to hear how "bad", "evil", "commie" the Times and Moveon.org are. What we want to hear is how and why they have it wrong!

That will tell us something that actually does us some real good.

The rest of it is just simple therapy in the form of reinforcing denial.

Missing, you can be quite certain that if moveon.org is taking a position on something, it is wrong.

And your support for that is?

"We'll see how the "left" fares in 2008."

You bet we sure will. Especially since the democrat-controlled Congress, with 18% approval, now has approximately half the approval of our esteemed president.

2008. As your buddy Mr. Kerry used to say, 'bring it on.'

http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?ci=28600&pg=1

Herb

Everybody but the GOP, and it's hard core 23 percent base will do just fine.

The major reason for disapproval is inaction. The primary driver behind that is this administration and it's supporters in congress.

The big question next year is, "Where will we hide the President?"

A clear majority of American people are not aligned with the hard right. They remain moderate, to progressive. If our system worked as is should, the primary focus would be on many domestic issues, labor, health care, taxes, education, etc... and not on morality, war, pork for big business.

When the GOP took it in the sack last cycle, a great many people were hoping it was enough for change. Sadly, it just wasn't. That's gonna take two cycles to free up enough seats to change things up.

IMHO, the biggest source of disapproval right now is general inaction on the war. "Give me 6 more months!" is getting very old. Hell, it's always 6 more months.

That approval rating is not indicative of how people will vote this coming cycle. Of course, that's been posted here (mostly by Andrew) many times.

There is also the reality of the GOP just not having anybody that inspires. The field is weak and largely working the same tired formula. This appeals to the 23 percenters, but not to most anybody else.

The scary stand out is Ron Paul! I find it very interesting his strong positions on the war, our domestic policy and the scope of government are attractive to people across the board.

By contrast, the Democratic field is very interesting. Lots of solid choices, with one of the bigger problems being just who will get the nod!

The core theme remains change. A majority of Americans have had enough. So do the math. Most all of the GOP is not about change. They can't be, largely because of the base. Without the 23 percenters, they look pretty sorry as most of their efforts do not appeal on a general level to most Americans right now.

(given they are well informed that is. And that's the winner right there. Between the base and the ignorant, the GOP is competitive)

The GOP has one stand out, and he's really not popular with the GOP majority, so that's a mess.

The Dems have several standouts, and as a party represent solid change. Where majorities flipped, change is already happening. People see that and know their choices and will vote accordingly.

The smart wager is not with the GOP, if one wants things to improve. Until that changes, the GOP is just cooked.

"The core theme remains change."

Wrong.
However, I hope you keep thinking that, because this will only help the GOP.

Here's a secret from Ol' Herb:

The core theme is national security, including terror.

Mr. Bush gets an "A" for there being no attacks after 9/11. With a mere 18% approval, the democrat-controlled congress is beyond laughable. 18% of the public would probably go for Lyndon LaRouche.

Better still, the American public trusts Republicans far more than the Democrat party regarding the single, overwhelmingly important issue of national security and terror.

Herb

Trust and Politics. Great Oxymoron there Herb!

Trust and Politics?

Wait until Mrs. Clinton tries to ram her commie socialist pinko health care system down America's throat once more. Americans are wise enough to not want Cuban, Canadian or Mexican-style health-care.

Herb

So we just let it get so expensive that only the reich elite can afford it.

"John Q" great movie!

"My son is dying, and I'm broke. If I don't qualify for Medicare, WHO THE HELL DOES?"

Whats worse......abortion or allowing someones son or daughter to die because their insurance won't cover the needed medical procedure?

It's a false choice.

A safety net is fine for the exception, primarily the very poor.

But consider this: Setting some money aside for basic health insurance is less of a priority for many Americans than cable TV or fast food.

Don't make the exception prove the rule. Just because some folks have different priorities and situations doesn't mean we should all suffer with socialist healthcare.

Herb

WOW.....so Herb you think we should build camps and concentrate all of this countries poor in them? I mean really...that way they won't get in the way of the Elite.

I don't know what you're drinking, but a review of my comments only makes your recent post look whacky.

Herb

Most poor can barely feed their kids and have to take jobs that do not provide health care and cannot afford it on their own. This so called safety net don't catch very many fish with all of the holes it has in it!

Hey, I'm in that healthcare mess right now. Not very poor, but now completely and totally fucked because of this issue.

Having experienced this crap first hand, having to deal with companies uninsured, and having to deal with very good insurance stalling on payment, causing collections, etc...

It's in need of reform period.

Setting some money aside is not possible for a very large percentage of Americans. That line isn't working Herb.

There is downward wage pressure, coming from out sourcing, devaluation of the dollar, increasing tax burden, largely because of the war, and large corporations and the wealthy refusing to carry their share.

Our poor energy policy is helping to increase fuel costs, meaning a rise across the board for most basic products, including food.

If you look at median wages, and the cost of health care, the math does not add up. I make good money, AND IT DOES NOT ADD UP.

(I don't waste either, drive used cars, minimal TV, few outings, invest in kids, etc...)

The rule needs to be we take care of our own period, end of story.

It's not, "I have mine, or have been lucky, so screw you", or profit.

Good god you are a selfish ass.

You're great with the name-calling.

Problem with the left is that name-calling doesn't do anything.

"Setting some money aside is not possible for a very large percentage of Americans."

If you want the majority to suffer with a system that they don't want, simply because a minority either cannot or does not have basic insurance, that's not gonna fly.

Don't make me put up with sub-standard, government run socialist health care. In addition to sending their children to private schools, ever notice how liberal democrats all have their own elite health care? How's that for hypocrisy?

I'll go for government run care when Hillary actually uses it. Until then, no thanks, socialists.

Herb

Hurricane "HERB" just spinned through!

He just don't and never will get it!

It's not about forcing those that can afford insurance and healthcare providers of their own choosing to use this system, it's about providing basic healthcare to those who have none and cannot afford insurance. I know, how about a mandatory sterilization of anyone who makes less than 40k a year?

The approval of Congress is low due solely to that fact of GOP obstruction. The public wants us the hell out of Iraq now, and those GOP members that continue to push the same strategy will be punished in 2008.

Just wait until the advertising starts, I can hear it now: Want indefinite war in Iraq, vote GOP. Want the troops home, vote Democrat. With 70% against the war and growing, backing the Iraq war is a losers proposition. And let me tell you right now, terror will not be the number one issue, IRAQ will be the number one issue.

So, you can continue to fluff your feathers and puff out your chest in denial of the facts, that's fine with me. But just like 2006, the numbers of GOP members in Congress will shrink once again in 2008.

I'm kinda tired of this being called a War. What country are we at war with? What nation? None. No official declaration of War. Yes we are at war with terrorism, not IRAQ. We are right now in a political Coo! We have toppled their government and are now instilling our own in that country. Put in and support US friendly people and keep them greased so that we can keep getting our dinosaur juice! It's no longer about terrorist threats in Iraq, it's about oil and control of it! I don't supprot a complete withdraw but am in Favor of building an Iraq equivelant of "Guantanamo Bay" over there in order to keep and eye on things and be able to react with precision strikes to terrorist cells when they surface.

>>>"The approval of Congress is low due solely to that fact of GOP obstruction."

Now where in the world might they have learned how to do that?

It's not a learned behavior. Denial is a natural part of the process before finally admitting fault for being wrong. When we get closer to 2008, wanna bet we see some GOP members change their minds in an attempt to hold on to their seat? And I'll look forward the the hacks like Hannity to highlight their flip flops.

Politicians flip flop more than a Salmon on the floor of my boat, till I club it. The american voter will be that club in the next election!

They learned it from the Democrats of course!

Why did the Dems work hard to limit the damage?

BECAUSE THIS ADMINISTRATION IS DOING US HARM?

Now, look at the GOP obstruction.

Different motive:

COVERING THEIR ASSES AND CONTINUING THE HARM.

Slippery again...

"It's not about forcing those that can afford insurance and healthcare providers of their own choosing to use this system..."

Once more, better check your facts.

Hillary care would have instituted severe, even draconian, penalties for those who ventured outside the system, including jail time for doctors.

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m1282/is_n16_v48/ai_18614086

"The whole scheme would have been enforced with a plethora of fines, penalties, and jail terms for physicians and their patients."

Once again, it's not Herb who lies. I provide facts that liberals simply don't want to believe. When are you liberals going to admit each time you're wrong?

But then again, facts never got in the way of socialists. The entire socialist system is a big lie, anyway.

Herb

"I Am Not A Crook"

You needed to go back 35 years.

How about this, much more recently:

"I did not have sex with that woman, Ms. Lewinsky."

And Mr. Nixon was never impeached. Mr. Clinton was.

Again, I just proved you wrong. Wave it away if you wish, but I'm not the one who lied.

Herb

Gen. Petraeus has to support Bush. That was what he was promoted to do. But when he retires I think he, just like Colin Powell has done, with tell the truth to us. The "war" in Iraq cannot be won.

Didn't need to, he quit before they did and they would have. And I never actually quoted Hillarys plan now did I. My remarks were just at the health care system or lack thereof in general.

Clintons lied, don't trust either one of them.

I don't like her system either but there needs to be something better than what there is now. And yes the haves will be paying taxes to support it. Otherwise what, let them suffer and die because they are poor?

Radioblogman, I hope you are wrong.

We certainly will not win if we hand Iraq over to Iran, Syria and terrorists now in Iraq.

If I didn't think we could win it, I would say leave now. But to exit prematurely is to doom thousands, probably millions to certain imprisonment or death.

Herb

Darktemper, I'm all for good care for all.

And I don't carry water for the insurance companies, either. Personally, I believe a more natural approach, i.e., naturopathy and osteopathy, would be better than handing all our medical care to the AMA.

Working together, democrats and republicans could probably work this out. But they would need to leave their lobbyists at the door before sitting down and hammering out a fair, affordable solution to health care that takes care of rich and poor alike.

Rewarding personal initiative with incentives for patients to try to take more control over their own health whenever possible, is one helpful aspect to consider. Ensuring that the poor are covered with everything needed is another.

I'm actually a bleeding heart on much of this. And trust me, I have witnessed first hand the socialist model. It leaves much to be desired.

I'm there, as long as it doesn't look like Mrs. Clinton's plan.

Herb

Right with ya Herb. Like that post man.

Have a great day!

Darktemper, you're going to ruin my reputation around here.



Herb

Not with me.....................

"Rewarding personal initiative with incentives for patients to try to take more control over their own health whenever possible, is one helpful aspect to consider."

I have been in control of my healthcare for years. I don't trust it to anyone else.

So Herb and DT what about tax or medical cost breaks for those of us who do take care of ourselves. Of course the problem there is how do you regulate that, but lets not go there at this time.

Your thoughts.

I won't tell nobody!

It was a nice thought but the realist in me says it will never happen. But its nice seeing that Herb is willing to work together on making things better. Maybe the next establishment can start thinking that way to! Gives one a glimmer of hope!

If we're truly going to change the medical insurance system you must first change the mind set of those who run it to those who are caught in its spokes.

I don't need medical insurance, but I do need quality healthcare. Big difference.

I read a year or two ago that the troops called him, General Betray Us. Now, I believe I understand that sentiment.

Since this evolved into a discussion of health care, I gotta agree with Darktemper -- great post Herb! Really!

Herb, I see where you are coming from.

I take the earlier comment back.

IMHO, we don't need medical insurance systems. At least we don't need them to be a primary source, or tied to employers.

Had a long conversation with a good friend and work associate last night. We were fighting with some software, and clearly had some time to talk while watching install screens!

We talked about free markets. Where we've clashed before is I don't believe in free markets. There are always rules of engagement, and it's either governments or guns that carve those out for business.

His core issue was what limits demand? If we socialize (and I hate that word, preferring distribute) the thing, won't it just get clogged?

Mine, of course, is the potential for serious harm to come to people that would otherwise not have had any real trouble. (waste, overhead, no safety net to keep things sane)

At the end of the discussion, we both agreed that insurance companies should be an optional thing, and not tied to employment.

People need to be the focus. They are more important than dollars are. Why? Because dollars only come from people!

The more healthy people are, the more dollars you are gonna get, assuming greed can be kept in check.

And that all comes down to the rules of engagement, and that's where government can play a role. If we want to continue private health care, and work this issue out, we have to set the rules such that the incentive is there for that to happen.

Does not need to be socialized. And I think that's where Herb is coming from. At least that's a significant part.

Maybe we can just focus on changing one thing; namely:

Stop allowing the for profit model to dictate how things are done. When our insurance companies have us fairly locked in, and their goal is to collect our dollars, distribute as few of them as is possible for care, then profit the rest, we are gonna get hosed more than is necessary for everybody to get along.

Let's just fix that, and maybe business creativity will address the rest!

(And that was my friends idea. Where rules permit (which he describes as a free market, but it's really just a well defined and fair one) creativity and competition, we generally end up doing well.

Well stated, Missing.

Optional is where I was headed. That gives consumers a real choice and more of a say.

To highlight what's been stated in different ways here, incentives for both consumers and providers is essential, folks. Command economies, as in the former East Germany, simply cannot respond to the needs of consumers like freer markets can.

I also like the idea of medical care providers and insurance companies vying for my health care dollar. Once they think they've got you sewn up, competition is out the window and prices zoom up.

And while this may seem tangential, it really isn't: Natural approaches like naturopathic and osteopathic medicine treat not only the whole person, but also treat the underlying health issue. Allopathic modalities typically deal only with symptoms. In tandem with prevention, if consumers are educated on these facts, it would help tremendously.

Herb

We agree!

(good grief, is the world gonna end now?)

I still think single pay is a great idea. Let business compete for their share of services, but keep billing and administrative overhead to a low, and empower them with that large purchasing pool that would be so formed by a single pay system.

With such a system up and running, a doctor could practice with maybe just one other person to do accounting, if they wanted to. Very lean.

Gotta say this too.

LEAN

Healthcare needs to embody this concept from top to bottom. In manufacturing, the word lean, means keeping the focus on the items so produced by the process. Overhead and distractions all cost time and that costs dollars and limits production.

We really need to encourage lean health care. It's not about poor quality. That's Chinese manufacturing. That's not lean, and not what I'm trying to get at.

Lean is robust, consistent, solid, competes well, adaptable where it makes sense, and no more expensive than it has to be Lean is also all about working smart, not hard, or super fast, or cheap.

A lean manufacturer may not make the peak dollars a cheap one or just extremely fast one does, but will make their dollars regularly and be a stiff long term competitor.

Some of those ideas could easily apply to the problem, if we set the rules of engagement such that they could be applied.

The AMA does us some serious harm by always marginalizing other techniques. Medicine should be a holistic affair. I view powerful pharmas like nukes. Even little, tempting tactical nukes leave a hell of a mess after doing their thing. There are other ways, just like with nukes.

I make use of a fair number of natural things. Always have and the results are often quite good. Prevention, or even just moderation does a ton of good. It's surprising to me that people will ignore basic body signals, reaching for a pharma, instead of thinking the matter through and adapting ones activities to allow the body to do what it needs to do.

One thing I never understood is why solid old-school means and methods are not leveraged as much as they could be today. This is another lean thing.

Take something dead simple like hydrogen peroxide.

Go to a medical care facility and it's nowhere to be found. Why?

IMHO, that's one indicator of how the for-profit focus is harming us. It's not lean. It can't be, simply because the most dollars are realized by always escalating the solutions, for what is highly likely to be a marginal value add.

Indeed, the paperwork physicians must deal with is mind-numbing.

The only ones who like red tape are bureaucrats.

Herb

One thing to remember about health care costs: if you're like most people, 20% or 30% of what's spent on your health care in your lifetime will be spent several days before your death.

In other words, it's the superhuman efforts that we make to save loved ones who are shuffling off this plane anyway that really runs up the medical bills.

What if we started by getting a healthy perspective on how death is ultimately going to follow life?

I'm not saying don't try and save really sick people, but there are people who are on their way out who could use great hospice care and spiritual guidance instead of a tube going into every orifice in their body.

Herb and Missing can I play in this sandbox with you guys. You are playing nice.

You two have really nailed it for me. I still think the consumer needs to take the initiative when it comes to healthcare. We do hold all the cards IF and that is a big IF...we have a system that truly wants to keep us healthy.

Healthy people keep costs down for everyone. But health is different for all of us. The family gene pool plays a lot into that.

We pay as we go being self-insured.

Chris, you make me nervous being self insured, unless you have access to as much as a $1 Million + in case one of your family gets cancer or something serious. It does happen.

At the very least figure on having $250,000 available for moderate occurrences that are more likely to happen.

A simple gall bladder or appendectomy can cost you $40,000+.

I know you work hard at leading a healthy life style, but that only helps the odds a little. It doesn't stop the problems.

Herb said>>>
And Mr. Nixon was never impeached. Mr. Clinton was.

Tricky DICK RESIGNED in DISGRACE before impeachment! CUT and RUN!

I wish Clinton would have resigned instead of getting his but impeached!

Deane- Believe me it's not like I haven't looked.

I just see my money being thrown away. The closest thing that resembles anything I liked is an MSA. I will give Bush credit on this because he has supported it. We did have an MSA however the agent(s) who sold it to us just disappeared and didn't explain it clearly even though my wife and I were in the same room, looking at the same paper work. They forgot a rather important aspect of the MSA.

Everything else I look at has so many strings attached it looks like a marionette policy.

If you or anyone has any wisdom, ideas please email me. But for now self insured is working for us.

Herb>"That they would actually print such slanderous material insinuating this patriot is a traitor and betraying his country, is an outrage."

General Petraeus is a good soldier, but so was Gen. Colin Powell when Bush had him tell his lies in front of the UN Feb 5, 2003. Every single one of his assertions turned out to be false. His reputation, which far exceeded Petraeus, is now trashed. Now Bush is doing the same thing to Gen. Petreaus. It should be illegal for politicians to use the military in this manner. Shame on Bush and three cheers to Moveon for have the balls to pay for the ad.

You're in the minority, Listenerpete.

Most of the left, including Senator Joe Biden, Senator John Kerry and Democrat advisor Bob Bechel, have denounced moveon.org's ad.

General Petraeus is an honourable man. Too bad those at moveon.org aren't.

Herb

I sent Moveon $25.00 today.

I'll bet they get a spike in donations.

Herb>"You're in the minority, Listenerpete.

Most of the left, including Senator Joe Biden, Senator John Kerry and Democrat advisor Bob Bechel, have denounced moveon.org's ad."

I would expect politicians to denounce the ad, they not as stupid as you might think they are. Moveon is an advocacy group similar to groups on the right and not affiliated with a political party. Move America Forward is pro-war.

Generals are meant to command the troops, not to sell a presidents failed policies.

Pete said>>>
Moveon is an advocacy group similar to groups on the right and not affiliated with a political party.

This part Herb and the EXTREME RIGHT don't understand which is sad.

Pete also said>>>
Generals are meant to command the troops, not to sell a presidents failed policies.

Amen!

Here you go. Check this Jack Ohman cartoon.

http://www.comicspage.com/comicspage/main.jsp?catid=1172&custid=69&file=20070911 edohm-a-p.jpg&code=edohm&dir=/ohman

But Pete that's a LIBERAL newspaper and Herr Herb and the EXTREME RIGHT won't find that funny at all.

I can't say I stand for everything moveon.org does or stands for, but I do like their hard hitting ads. Gives the GOP a little taste of their own medicine, and as expected, the GOP cries like a bunch of little girls.

No doubt the Swift Boaters are crying the hardest!

C&L has some great cry baby clips up this evening.

Hilarious!

And that AD is brilliant! Hit's all the buttons, and hits them nice and hard.

No wonder they are crying about that. This could just be a warm up. If that team gets after it, I'll be it does not take six months for people to spell GOP:

LIE or GAY.

As I predicted...

I received this mailing from Moveon today:

Dear MoveOn member,

Yesterday, an amazing thing happened. After the Senate's shameful vote, and after President Bush called MoveOn "disgusting," our email started to fill up with messages like this one:

I'm currently in Iraq. I do not agree with this war, and if I did support this war, it would not matter. You have the RIGHT to speak the truth. We KNOW that you support us. Thank you for speaking out for being our voice. We do not have a voice. We are overshooted by those who say that we soldiers do not support organizations like MoveOn. WE DO.

YOU ARE OUR voice.

And then came the donations. By midnight, over 12,000 people had donated $500,000—more than we've raised any day this year—for our new ad calling out the Republicans who blocked adequate rest for troops headed back to Iraq.

moveon.commie calls General Petraeus, a man who risked his life for his country in earning a bronze star for valour, a 'betrayer.'

The only extremists in this argument are those who support moveon.commie.

Herb

He is a betrayer. He can't even answer whether our actions in Iraq are making us safer or not. What's wrong with calling a spade a spade? Is that not allowed based on his title? Are some people allowed a pass because they serve the military??

"He is a betrayer."

You just lost the majority of Americans.
moveon really got to you.
I seriously hope voters realize how vicious the left is, that they would slander a Bronze Star recipient.

Herb

>>>"I received this mailing from Moveon today: "

If you believe what that email said, you're even more gullible than Vitalogy. That's nothing more than an email spreading BS to try to overcome the negative publicity from their stupid ad. At the same time, it's an attempt to collect support money from the lame.

More empty threats by someone who has been discredited over and over again....yawn. We heard all the same crap before the 2006 elections and look how that worked out for the GOP.

If you actually believe that, I seriously hope you keep it up.

2008 is gonna be great for the anti-terror Republicans.

Herb

Who's read the ad? Here's the actual text:


GENERAL PETRAEUS OR GENERAL BETRAY US?

Cooking the Books for the White House

General Petraeus is a military man constantly at war with the facts. In 2004, just before the election, he said there was �tangible progress� in Iraq and that �Iraqi leaders are stepping forward.�And last week Petraeus, the architect of the escalation of troops in Iraq, said,�We say we have achieved progress, and we are obviously going to do everything we can to build on that progress.�

Every independent report on the ground situation in Iraq shows that the surge strategy has failed. Yet the General claims a reduction in violence. That�s because, according to the New York Times, the Pentagon has adopted a bizarre formula for keeping tabs on violence. For example, deaths by car bombs don�t count. The Washington Post reported that assassinations only count if you�re shot in the back of the head � not the front.

According to the Associated Press, there have been more civilian deaths and more American soldier deaths in the past three months than in any other summer we�ve been there. We�ll hear of neighborhoods where violence has decreased. But we won�t hear that those neighborhoods have been ethnically cleansed.

Most importantly, General Petraeus will not admit what everyone knows: Iraq is mired in an unwinnable religious civil war. We may hear of a plan to withdraw a few thousand American troops. But we won�t hear what Americans are desperate to hear: a timetable for withdrawing all our troops. General Petraeus has actually said American troops will need to stay in Iraq for as long as ten years. Today, before Congress and before the American people, General Petraeus is likely to become General Betray Us.


Comments:

*The top of the ad is a question, not a statement. Just like the "Sandy Burglar?" or "Democrats Support Bin Laden?" chyrons often seen on Fox News, the idea is put forth for consideration, not stated as fact.

*It is an opinionated piece, backed by facts. One fact is that the General's report disagrees with the conclusions of many independent sources in Iraq. Whom do you choose to believe?

*Is MoveOn treasonous, as Herb and Deane imply, for questioning Petraeus' report? I thought this kind of questioning was the essence of an open democratic process. Why does the mere suggestion of impropriety rankle the right so? Why does Bush have such a thin skin?

It's not treasonous for questioning General Petraeus' report.

It's wrong in calling this brave man a betrayer to his country.

Herb

Treason is defined, as giving aid and comfort to the enemy.

Does what move on org is doing fit that definition?

At the least it is libelous against a man that has served his country faithfully for almost 25 years.

It's not treason and it's not libel. It's called freedom of speech, and I also call it the truth.

If you read the text, this whole thing is just another way for the right wing to try to take the focus off of THEIR war.

" Does what move on org is doing fit that definition? "

Nope. Not even close.

There.

"At the least it is libelous against a man that has served his country faithfully for almost 25 years."

So this is a civil matter between Petraeus and MoveOn.org. He should sue them if they injured his reputation with any false statements. I ask again, why does the right, and specifically the GOP leadership, and very specifically Bush, have such a thin skin? What wimps.

It's not about being wimps. It's all about leveraging the deference. Just an easy out to keep dissent to a minimum.

Two things are constant with these clowns:

They attack where they are weak. By putting these matters on to those, who disagree, they make solid discourse very difficult. Instead of focusing on the merits of any given action or plan, we end up in useless and highly subjective emotional discussions. "this is worse than that"

The other constant happens to be a near complete lack of boundaries. This actually is a necessary component, if one is to engage in the above behavior. Manipulating the boundaries is very strategic. It essentially puts those, who do respect the boundaries, at a considerable disadvantage.

They are left with either:

play by the same rules, and be marginalized for not "practicing what they preach"

,or

continue to respect the boundaries and be left in a position where a significantly higher degree of effort is required to do their part.

One can write a short book on these things and get a bumper sticker grunt in return.

Very easy to just keep others on the offensive. It's seen here all the time. Same playbook, different people, different day.

Of course this whole thing just kills me. With all the talk of "strong moral compass", "black and white", "decisive", etc... watching this play out over and over is just nuts!

He cant sue them, because hes a public figure. Not even Adm Kimmel, who had the disaster at Pearl Harbor, blamed on him, was attacked with such vemon.

These attacks are much worse than the lefties tried with Gen Westmorland.

Public figures can't be sued?

Actually, he could sue. Anybody can, unless they've been restricted by the court.

Would he win? That is the question.

As far as I am concerned, that General works for us. If he is not making the most fact based report, he is betraying us.

What he believes does not matter. He's on the clock and has a duty to perform. That means telling it straight up. That is exactly what we paid him for. He is a solder, he knows better than to get political on this matter.

That's essentially why he would never win a lawsuit too. He is free to try it though. I suspect he won't because I also suspect he knows better, but just does not have the strength of character to deal with it.

Moveon is just calling him on this. Of course that's gonna hurt. It's supposed to! The threat of something like this is one of the checks, built into our system, that insures we get the service we pay for.

And I think that's the disconnect right there. Those people, who think this ad is wrong, or "treason", are also those people who think what they believe matters more than the law does.

What is gonna happen is those same people are going to be shown the law rules at the end of the day. There is no entitlement that circumvents this, there is no religion that can prevent this or magically invoke high ground when there is none.

There is just a question asked by the paying American public, and an answer. If that answer is defensible and solid, then this AD is a simple attack and is not defensible.

If that answer is less than defensible, not solid, manipulated, partial, or any other thing, the AD is a check on that. Pressure to get to the solid and defensible answer, or get somebody else who will give us that answer.

Personal attacks are funny this way. If somebody is really a scumbag, and is acting like a scumbag, we get to call them a scumbag and it's defensible. Period, end of story, no matter who they are.

However, if somebody is not a scumbag, but gets called one, for political reasons, then that's not defensible.

It's not the attack itself that's at issue, it's the matter of the report that is the issue.

And that report is less than honest, therefore, some of us are gonna get after him for that and he's gonna have to deal. Was his choice to do less than what he is getting paid to do.

Well, for the record, I THINK I know what Nwokie was trying to say. But I tire of having to guess or assume with him. I get to read what he says and I go on that.

But I do find the right getting so outraged about a pun that they sound like babies. Almost as bad as Democrats.

ALMOST.

What I find ironic is that the same people that are complaining about the General Betray-us ad are the same ones that happily defended the Swift Boat attacks against John Kerry, a decorated Vietnam Vet who ACTUALLY saw combat.

The hypocrisy of these people is astounding, yet not surprising in the least.

The so called "Swift boat" attacks, were comments from other servicemen that served in the same area, and mainly pointed out errors in Kerys statements. IE, Kerry claimed he was in cambodia on Christmas night, his boat was no where near the Cambodia on that night.

He received 3 purple hearts, at least 2 of them probably didnt meet the criteria for awarding a purple heart.

He received his silver star for running his boat up on a beach, and killing a wounded unarmed enemy soldier.

And lastly he refused to release his full military record, as he demanded the president do.

Like I said...hypocrites!!!

So your equating truthful arguments, with outrageous lies?

Well the Swift Boat ad backfired in a way. We'll see how much non-partisan backlash there is with the moveon ad.

And, uh, it didn't bother me. Nor did the Swift Boat ads.

Gotta love how the swiftboaters are being kicked in the butt by moveoners. A bunch of crybabies they are. Yoo hah!