...so you were saying?

How is 105.9's HD sounding?

1640 KDZR is still sounding nasty and mono!

The former still sounds great!

SPOT is the "smart" watch and other "smart" device division of MS.

I've read they also have a smart toaster and that new table PC.

I had a trial subscription to the watch for six months. As a person who does not wear watches anyway I did not find that it compelled me to want to start wearing one again.

Woot! I'm excited about this... Sometimes the presentations at OTVARC are a little lacking, but hopefully some good information is given. I'll have to come up with some good questions to ask!

Radionut wrote:

Oregon Tualatin Valley Amateur Radio Club (OTVARC)

SEPTEMBER MEETING - Wednesday, September 12th

Peppermill Restaurant

17455 SW Farmington Road

Beaverton Oregon

7:00 PM

Come early and share a no-host meal off the Peppermill Menu with club members and guests. Our speaker will be Jim Boyd K7MKN. Jim has installed more than two dozen HD radio stations all over the western United States, including many in Oregon. Learn about the rapidly- changing digital radio broadcast scene.

This new location is a trial to see if it will meet our club needs. Let your board members know how well you believe this location meets club needs. Email them directly, or send your comment to otvarc@gmail.com.

1040 KXPD Tigard, and 660 KXOR Junction City are the next two AM stations that will add HD.

James Boyd is helping to make them both happen.

I went to Circuit City for a television. While I was there, I overheard someone asking about HD radio. I followed to the car stereo section where the salesman showed him MY radio! He hit the seek button and it refused to stop on anything. It was then explained that they had a single car antenna on the roof feeding ALL the radios in the store! The salesman then opined that he couldn't tell much difference. Frankly, this should be illegal! It's a disservice to everyone! I offered to show the customer my radio in my car and he was quite impressed!

What a terrible salesman! Good thing you were there to set the record straight!

I'd demand a commission from CC!

it was the same way in Radioshack they had the Accurian table radio and the Bose HD Receptor on display and neither one of them could get the local HD station in the store.

Then why do they bother selling them? I'd walk right back out the door if that's what I came in to investigate. Nice way to run a business, eh?

that is what I thought too ended up getting the floor model Accurian and when I setup the thing here the local HD station, KMNT 104.3 was being received in HD and maxing out the signal meter with the dipole that was used in the store! The lesson here is if you own a store will be selling HD Radio receivers and have floor models, get a decent outdoor antenna so that the radios will be able to get the digital signals in the store.

If the radio didn't stop on anything, the problem isn't HD but rather an inefficient antenna system! It isn't like analog did any better! Can you imagine what the line loss must be like with all those radios connected to a single antenna? I wonder who thought this was a good idea.

if it is done right it will work for a setup like this losses can be compensated for by using a distribution amplifier which increases the strength of incoming signals from the antenna before going to the splitter.

I thought about that. It has to be a very quiet amplifier to avoid bringing up the background noise.

it would because as I learned the hard way HD Radio receivers don't like noisy signals and the amplified antenna I was using was supposed to be low noise something that was proven wrong very quickly the thing was also supposed to work with HDTV but if it does not work well for HD Radio it does not stand a chance with HDTV. There are low noise amplifiers but they can be a little expensive.

There are now 2 new HD2s to choose from: As I earlier predicted, Smooth Jazz has moved to KKCW-HD2. KQOL's is now "Rock On", which I would describe as a 70s intensive Classic Hits station(the original meaning, not an updated Oldies station).

Finally! These are a couple of great moves!

T minus 3 hours and 26 minutes until the new rules on digital radio take effect.

Will the nighttime AM HD signals debut at midnight?

sounds about right it will be interesting to see what happens to the AM band after the new rules take effect. I think there will be hissing all over the band wiping out the weak signals that myself and many others are listening for.

I see it differently!

It's T minus some hours and minutes, until AM can really start to happen.

If IBOC ends up being a big deal, there is time for alternatives. If not, then more stations will begin to broadcast.

Either way, the state of things will be known and from there improvements that matter have a chance to happen.

Here's to a more robust AM, no matter how we get there. AM is really "radio" to me. I want to see more happening, period.

the digital signals will be difficult if not impossible to receive under nighttime skywave conditions. Remember this, with digital it is all or nothing either the signal arrives perfectly and is decoded or it is not decoded at all. There are better ways to do digital AM then IBOC one way is DRM but that requires two frequencies and two transmitters but it is more reliable than what we have here. I personally have tried to get DRM using an internet connected receiver in Europe. One transmission I heard was the BBC World Service on 1296 KHz in the MW band. When I was listening to this in normal AM mode I heard interference in the back ground but the DRM signal was decoded without a problem it takes severe interference or a really weak signal to mess up DRM. But this is under skywave in the station's city of license where their signal is strong enough to overcome interference then digital will work 24/7 but go about 20 or 30 miles outside that particular signal and dropouts will occur because of the skywave interference.

Yep.

I've read that stuff too. Here's the kicker though:

Will people care?

That's what this is all going to come down to. There are lots of technical things about IBOC that are not optimal. We've hashed them all out here and I think the end result of those discussions is solid.

But, none of it really got to the heart of the matter and that's what people really will do.

All of this will go down in the high population areas first. Those areas, particularly where there are tough topology issues, will see conflicts. They will have choices too. Lots of them.

-cut number of stations

-deal (essentially making AM a local medium for a lot of people --I don't know if this is really all that bad, nostalgic issues aside)

-use analog stereo

-receiver manufacturers compensating with more aggressive DSP's and well tuned designs.

(I've one Delco radio that remains completely unaffected by IBOC, so I know that's all possible.)

-the IBOC signals can be tweaked in various ways, so can the antennas, etc...

What I'm waiting for is the reaction from ordinary AM radio listeners. All of us here will have our points to make. Frankly, we would have them no matter what changed. So, really we don't count for that much.

If Bob, "I'm pissed that I can't hear my station well or at all" calls in, then we've got something to act on.

However, if Bob does not call in, and the ratings don't change much, then we don't have a problem, right?

From there, we might actually see more programming forms on AM --or we find out that maybe not so many people listen at night anymore.

I actually strongly suspect this is true, more than we think, or want to be true. And if it is, perhaps discovering that means more potential revenue that could be had from airing programming that might be worth tuning at night for.

A more diverse and "wild" AM is better for the medium, in the longer term, than what we have going on right now. That's a no-brainer. Those of us into radio tune. Some of us tune for some programming, but I suspect a whole ton of people, particularly younger people, don't tune period.

Looking back at FM IBOC, a number of critical points were raised. I personally raised a fair number of them here. To be fair, I also was regularly clear about the idea that multi-streams, multi-casting, would outweigh those matters.

That's looking like the way it's gonna go. After all the discussion, FM is largely unchanged, but for the new broadcast options and what they represent to stations wanting to innovate.

HD & HD2 are quite listenable. Most ordinary people clearly prefer a consistent signal, with low overall noise. Nobody likes multipath better than they do artifacts or some loss of accuracy.

At the end of the day, FM IBOC conveys the perception of higher definition radio. That perception is reality where most ordinary people are concerned.

Very important dynamic to be watching right now.

Now it's time to see how that all shakes down for AM, and that really was the point of my post.

Frankly, if AM IBOC ends up going how FM did, we will be left with a simple awareness and hardware innovation problem. More people need to know about it and the gear has gotta go a generation or two as quickly as can be managed.

I'll bet that growth will make content efforts more viable as well. Radio might get considerably better.

A handheld IBOC radio, that delivers on AM and FM, may well be just excellent for a lot of people. I know I would enjoy one as my better radio experiences are never on hand held devices.

Why are there not more AM capable portable devices? Because AM mostly sucks in this mode. Headphone listening to mono, low bandwidth material is just not very sustainable for a lot of people. A portable or the car is different. I think this is key to understanding how and why AM is struggling.

I regularly load talk programs onto a portable media player, for listening at various times. Why do this when the streamed / archived audio is often less quality than the broadcast?

It works, when AM just doesn't.

Lots of people listen to crappy mp3s all day long in their headphones, but they won't listen to AM.

In this, IBOC is the right solution.

Of course, that's me and my listening experience. In the car, it's good. On the portable at home, it's really good. By the computer sucks, downtown in buildings sucks, by some annoying traffic control devices and near the MAX line sucks.

The portable media player never sucks in those same ways.

If the portable and live IBOC AM radio doesn't suck at these times, I'll take that over the artifacts and maybe might get some new programming to boot.

Sorry for the long post, but this dynamic is why I'm not so sure long distance AM matters as much as we want it to matter...


Now we find out!

Someone in portland tell me... Are the AM HD's on the air?

I won't be able to check it out until I'm off work tonight.

KEX HD is on now I can hear the hiss on top of another station

What station are you trying to listen to that is being covered up?

And where are you listening?

(Sorry for the questions. This is when I really miss being home!)

I don't know the station being covered up but it is on 1180 and I am listening from Toledo Washington 65 miles north of Portland

I am in Centralia and don't hear any I-Boc noise on KEX's side bands, for what it's worth.

getting KFBK in HD right not their ID just popped up on the screen of my receiver!

sorry meant to say right now I was a little excited over this.

In my neighborhood with a GE SR3 1170 is slightly affected, 1180 is mostly obliterated, 1200 is complete hash, 1210 has just the slightest background noise added.

At 11:40 p.m. I heard stations on all the above frequencies.

near solid HD lock on KFBK now KGDD 1520 is completely obliterated where I am

For those in Portland: Here's a big question: Are there any locals in Portland that are getting interfered with by an HD station elsewhere?

A serious possibility for flea-powered former daytimers.

There are currently no IBOC stations operating first-adjacent to any of my locals, so I can't answer for certain.

KFBK is on 1530 their digital sidebands should be audible on 1520 and 1540 right now.

KFBK is in Sacramento.

I don't think it would cause any interference on 1520 with in Portland. 1520 should be strong enough to mask it out.

should be but it is worth a try.

At 15,000 watts I can't imagine 1520 having a problem, unless it's in their nighttime null out towards Sandy.

I can still somewhat hear 1520 even though they don't put much signal my way at night. 1540 is completely wiped out. I seem to get more noise on the upper sideband of the few IBOC stations I've DXed.

Sounds like the tuner is slightly off...

From Hillsboro (about 12 miles west of Portland), If I rotate my Eton E-5 just right, the the IBOC from KFBK almost covers KGDD, but KGDD sounds ok with the radio rotated 90 degrees.

I have not locked onto KFBK HD yet on my Sangean HDT-1, but the tuner is indicating the transmission mode "MA1"... I have only seen the HD indicator blink a few times on 1530.

Any other DX? I have tried KGO, KSL and KOA...no luck!

so far only KFBK no one else is using it. KGO is directional at night their power is concentrated up and down the Pacific coast so their array might need work done to it before nighttime HD transmissions can begin. KSL was not digital either and same goes for KOA.

Could be that you just couldn't pick up the I-Boc signal for those other stations.

Like I said earlier, here in Centralia, there was absolutely no HD interference on either side of 1190.

could be still looking for other HD stations can hear the sidebands from KGO no ID yet but this is promising.

Folks on the central coast now have an HD station: The Boss 100.7. HD-1 is the main channel and HD-2 is a simulcast of AM sister, KCUP. Was able to hear the HD signal from Lincoln City up to about Rose Lodge(was listening to the Ducks game on the way home from LC on the HD2--sounded good.)

I'm not sure when they turned the HD on, as I only get to the coast every couple of months.

I thought about putting this on the "Come Work For The BOSS" thread, but it is just getting too nutty over there!

got a weird thing going on again with HD Radio receiver hooked up to cable listening to KXPC 103.7 in analog but suddenly the ID for KMTT Seattle just popped up and this is a station being received off the back of the antennas actually had a solid HD lock on KMTT a while back and when the radio finally blended to analog KXPC started coming in. This results in a weird situation which means I could be listening to country one minute and rock the next!

This is another reason why a "force to analog" switch is important in HD receiver design. I have heard several stories of distant HD stations overriding (on HD receivers) local non-HD stations, during periods of enhanced reception of the DX station.
IF tropo or E-skip is good, I look for DX HD even on channels that have a local non-HD station... no luck, yet!

maybe this is whats wrong with the knrk signal?

After much soul searching, I've decided to alter my position on FMeXtra: Ibiquity should make it a part of their regular system, reverting to it at the point the HD signal is lost. That should satisfy most people and it could be set up to blend to analog mono before it really becomes too noisy.

I doubt Ibiquity will do that but it seems like a good idea in theory. There are some FMeXtra stations on the air now and a few in the United States presumably operating under experimental rules.

CX encoded LPs, anyone? Instead, I suggest further improvements or power increases to "HD Radio" so a default to analog would be unneeded. The HD2 and HD3 streams have no analog to blend into.

At 1% of analog power, some of the big stations drop out at the 181st Avenue exit of I-84, seemingly in the open. That's 1kw. KNRK is running 63 watts so 1kw for them would be more than 15%! Maybe, there's something else to do that would strengthen the signal received. My thought was for something to replace multiplex stereo where the HD signal is too weak but analog stereo is still quite acceptable. As long as it blends to analog mono before the noise becomes unlistenable, the sound would always be cleaner than multiplex and have the additional advantage of extra channels. By the way, FMeXtra isn't experimental. It's fully authorized as a use of the SCA channels.

This from Inside Radio:

Citadel silences HD nighttime AM signals.

Three weeks after the FCC began allowing AM stations to broadcast in HD after dark, Citadel engineers say interference concerns and listener complaints have led to the decision to pull the plug. Of special concern is the impact on Citadel’s big 50,000 watt stations like New York’s WABC and Detroit’s WJR. Insiders call the move “temporary” while they look for ways to improve signal coverage – and point out they’ll remain in HD during daylight hours.

On my JVC I get good HD coverage on I-84 right out past Troutdale, except for a dropout due to being in the shadow of Rocky Butte. But that's a little closer in than 181st.

Semoochie, which stations do you refer to? And what kind of rig/antenna are you running?

I'll have to recheck which stations . I was surprised by it because my reception is usually rock solid. I'm thinking it was KGON or another Stonehenge station but there may have been others on Sylvan or Skyline. It was definitely a full power station.

My friend's Kenwood HD tuner had 105.1 dropping out, on I-5, just south of downtown.

Everything FM drops out on I-5 just south of downtown. That location is in a shadow from hills between the road and the towers.

Even analog FM will sound very scratchy right through there. HD will not sound scratchy, it will just go to zero with insufficient signal.

Keep in mind that the Entercom stations at Stonehenge are running their HD signals from aux antennas. These are mounted lower than the combined antenna, and on the tower legs. There is a shadow off the back of those antenna. KBOO, and the stations at Skyline have their analog and digital signals on the same antenna. This should provide better coverage for the HD.

I thought it might have to do with the antennas being on the legs of the tower if it's just limited to Stonehenge. I'll make another run.

KNRK has a combined HD/Analog antenna at Stonehenge.

AND, I'm pretty sure the KGON and KYCH backup antennas are on the NE leg, and KWJJ's backup antenna is on the SE leg.

KNRK is high-level combined into a single-bay antenna on the top of the Stonehenge Tower, and KBOO is mid-level combined in the main antenna. Neither has a problem on I-5.

The Entercom stations will eventually be low-level combined after their transmitters are replaced.

The KRSK and KQOL signals should track, since they are combined into the exact same antenna and have the same power level at Skyline.

Digression:

Say a person has $200 to spend. They have internet, a reasonable computer, good car with analog stereo, maybe it plays CD's.

They decide to spend on some new tech. HD Radio, or iPod? Which delivers the better overall entertainment value? Until this experience today, I would have easily said the radio.

I'm asking this because I just ended up with one of the new Nano models. It will play video, audio and display books.

Right now, I'm listing to the Thom Hartman show I missed this morning on KPOJ. Noted the little subscribe button, then decided to go looking for other things.

There is a lot of stuff! A few subscriptions later and I'm basically caught up each day on news / talk, leaving only music entertainment. I can easily load up my existing collection of tunes. Putting some books on the thing is a nice bonus, as I love to read and listen to music.

A fair amount of content is video as well.

Anyway, nobody seems to be talking about this very much. (highly likely I'm not talking to the right people though)

The iPod as a free entertainment vehicle is actually not a bad one! This little device is looking an awful lot like a radio to me. Forget the "live" part, and the rest is pretty much there and growing. Quality / diversity of productions is quite a bit more solid than it was a coupla years ago.

Any HD Radio positioning / value add ideas come to mind? Just wondering where the latest thought on that is.

I am a regular listener to the Rick Emerson Show, and I almost never hear it live. I use built-in IE7 functionality to grab the podcast every day, and load it onto my Ipod shuffle periodically for listening in the car.

For that kind of radio show, being live really isn't that significant. It's nice to be relatively current, but within a day or three is close enough for me.

Has anybody noticed...KTBR 950 in Roseburg is now on HD?

From what I have heard, Jefferson Public Radio(owner/operator of KTBR) is in the middle of a big HD Radio project.

Read it here:

http://www.ijpr.org/Page.asp?NavID=1086

The dropouts are when you drop down onto the 181st Avenue exit and affect both Stonehenge and Skyline stations, even K103! So much for running more power.

When you make this turn, is the car body between your antenna and the tower sites ?

PS: remember, the HD radio is responding to the quality of the signal at the antenna a few seconds before, not real time.

It isn't really a turn. The problem shows up when I drop down onto the exit. and later, turn north onto 181st Avenue, going under the overpass. Yes, the antenna is on the front of my car so the car is between the car antenna and the towers.

When I first started playing with HD, I had a first generation Sanyo HD1990M "loose in the car" connected to a magnetic mount FM 1/4 wave antenna stuck to the roof. When I connected the Sanyo to the fender mount antenna, performance suffered.

Measurments showed that the roof mount antenna was consistently 2-3 dB above that of the fender mount, and sometimes even better than that, if the car body was between my antenna and the transmitter.

I decided to wait for higher HD power rather than drill holes in the roof of my car, however!

there might be a way to just stick the down lead from the antenna through a window or something I do that with a 2 meter (146 MHz) 5/8th wave antenna frequently and it works well. As for receivers I have done some tests and I can say that the Accurian seems to be a hot receiver on FM it outperforms some car stereos! A couple examples of this and these stations are analog the campus radio station from Centralia College KCED 91.3 has a weak signal into Toledo and car stereos will not pull it in most of the time but the HD receiver will even with a half wave dipole this station is running about 1KW but their antenna placement means poor line-of-sight from where I am. Another one is a really distant FM station out of Bellingham on 92.9 the HD receiver will pull it in quite easily and car stereos will not receive it unless there is a tropo opening.

I fed it down through the sunroof, but the the total effect was pretty "geeky" (even for me ).

One ham friend yanked out his dome light, drilled holes, routed wires, and was able to put everything back together very neatly... nothing shows inside the car except the under-dash 2 meter rig. Sometime, I may try something like that, and perhaps try 5/8 wavelength, for better HD performance, IF HD transmitter power/receiver performance does not improve

Yes! my Sangean HDT-1 is way better than the old Sanyo when I compare on weak Eugene HD stations ( using a 9 element log/yagi FM antenna).

A 5/8th wave antenna that would be worth a try with a magnet mount it should be able to use the car body as a counterpoise providing a low SWR to the receiver if the antenna is properly tuned. That does not surprise me with the 2 meter setup the HF ones are a bit more elaborate. In many cases a hole will be drilled through the firewall in the car so that the transceiver can be directly connected to the car battery which is a good idea for a couple reasons 1 a 200 watt or so HF transceiver draws a lot of current when transmitting at full power or at least during the peaks in modulation with SSB and CW and 2 with a direct battery connection the ignition system in the car is bypassed entirely meaning less noise in the receiver.

I went back to the 181st exit, this time listening to KKCW HD2 all the way. The signal dropped out passing Rocky Butte, off and on, all the way past the 122nd exit and again at the 181st exit and back onto the entrance going the same direction on the other side of the road. As soon as I made the turn and was again headed west on the freeway, I never had another dropout, even in the tunnel to southbound I-205! Apparently, you were right about the car's body being in the way of the signal. Now all we have to do is convince all carmakers in the world to use a diversity antenna system with one on the front and the other on the back on the opposite side of the car!

I suspect that a true diversity system involving in-window antennas on all four sides of the car could be made to function as well as (or perhaps better) than a fender mount, and make the stylists happy.

Keep in mind that the combined antenna at Skyline is not truly non-directional. It has huge nulls at each tower leg. This comes from mounting an antenna that was designed for an 8-foot side tower on the 12 -foot sides of the Skyline tower. You may be directly in-line with a tower leg.

I would echo some of the comments already on this thread: it is possible to tweak your receiving system for better reception. But, how many average listeners are going to bother. If broadcasters are going to make this technology fly there is still alot of work to do. Thanks for the information on signal coverage, and quality. The field tests are invaluable.

Speaking of signal reports: KEX with HD lock and text on I-5 between Redding and Sacramento on the evening of October 5th. KSL, too!

I haven't tried too hard, but so far I haven't been able to even get a flashing HD light out of KGO or any other DX HD AMs.

KGO turned off their HD by Citadel corporate mandate.

KFBK's has been off while they fix a problem with their new transmitter.

1160 KSL or 1070 KNX are your best bets in Portland if you can get away from 1150 or 1080.

KSL does seem to be a best bet for HD at night but I seem to only get the ID not even brief audio decoding so far.

That would explain why I haven't picked up KGO HD the past few nights.

I wonder why they decided to turn it off.

I thought that perhaps my antenna wire was soaked

One report here:

http://www.radioworld.com/pages/s.0121/t.8847.html

at first this was thought to be a rumor heard about it on a forum related to AM stereo broadcasting and the reaction to this news was mixed but mainly the response to this was positive as some noticed destructive interference to other radio stations which were normally received well.

Dberichon: I posted Citadel's reasons for shutting their HD's down. This was posted on October 3rd at 1:07am on this thread.

Shoot, KGO was the only DX HD station I could get strong reception from.

Hopefully, KGO HD will eventually return.

possibly although I think KGO is one of the Citadel/ABC stations that are shutting down IBOC at night because of interference concerns.

Thanks Craig, I totally missed that!

We are now officially a 2-HD Radio family! I just got one for my wife's car because, drum roll...she wanted one! I never tried to talk her into it and the old one was still working fine although she also wanted a CD player. The salesman said it was a very popular item! That's new; they must be starting to catch on, finally. When I got home, I turned it on for her, punched in KGON and went to their HD2, which was playing a live version of one of her 3 favorite songs, "Radar Love"! I'll bet I can't do that again!

Noticed tonight that KFBK is back on in HD... No sign of KGO, however.

It's seems the HD Radio Alliance is missing the opportunity to sell more HD radios this holiday season, with some great discounts.

I was driving down Highway 99-W while listening to KKCW HD2, which hadn't missed a beat. I turned onto Highway 18 and the strangest thing happened: It reverted to analog! I didn't think it could do that and it never has before. I thought it ALWAYS just muted the signal. Is it possible that the signal just suddenly became extremely weak and when that happens, the analog signal is supposed to return? By the way, the HD signal was rock solid anywhere that the analog one wasn't riddled with interference, including most of the Coast Range!

Unfortunately HD Radio is like the Laserdisc player. I have one, it's cool, but it will never be a mass medium.

WiFi and NetRadio in the car will blow past it.

It isn't a problem. Reception was solid right through Newberg in an area I always tolerated before!

Re: wifi / netradio.

Maybe. I'm struggling to find the link. When I do, I'll post it up here for everyone. In a nutshell, providing too much choice does not equate to a greater overall happiness. The dynamic is all about managing and setting expectations.

If the expectations are low, as in there are only a few choices, then being "happy" or "satisfied" about it, is considerably easier! If expectations run high, (lots of choice), then things get difficult. Essentially, people get too picky, demanding, entitled, and that kind of ruins the whole value perception.

Two issues in play here for HD Radio then. One is general technology acceptance and engineering issues. Both are progressing, and so long as they are progressing in a way that makes some kind of business sense, the longer term picture is solid.

Right now, that is the case on FM, teething pains aside.

The other one then is this management of expectations and that one is in the crapper right now!

For radio in general, there is a fairly strong case for there being some content issues as well. Live 'n local, VT, program forms, commercials, etc... all in flux and in need of some applied effort to optimize.

Adding wifi / netradio is gonna further expand choice, and it's gonna bring content to the table where it's not really being explored right now.

Secondly, the overall speed of technology adoption is not such that these new devices will eclipse radio for a considerable length of time. On the content issues, radio can easily adapt, cherry pick and add a lot of value on that basis.

BTW: Radio, in general, could very easily re-purpose it's content offerings, and deliver them via new tech venues. Witness the Internet and streaming. The same will be true for any new tech that tries to work anything like radio does!

Couple that with the re-branding going on right now for the digital radio, and it's not too much of a stretch to just brand the station identity as a content aggragation house, with cool people that are relevant on a daily basis. Take that and deliver it how ever one wants to consume it, and suddenly, something that is expected to add to radio, simply enhances it!

Case in point: I consume KPOJ (and yes, I checked the spelling dammit!), on ordinary AM, streaming and on the pod. The key branding element is KPOJ, not that it is KPOJ AM radio anymore! Extending this, once successfully managed, is a no-brainer.

Remember it's all about delivering the "cool", whatever that may be. Delivering that cool, combined with good branding efforts, will remain potent, despite the additional tech outlets.

Radio could actually play on that and reset expectations to a lower state. Radio can be "easier" than either of these two technologies can be, and it can incorporate the content they can deliver too.

Finally, it's not a zero sum game. With the greater choice out there, people are generally unhappy. This leaves a vacuum.

On one hand, filling that vacuum with a new tech is a no-brainer.

On the other, playing to that directly, means being able to leverage established technologies (radio) without so much up-front investment.

At the end of the day, there are just a lot of radios, they are established, and they are dead simple and dirt cheap. Nothing on the horizon even comes close to that on a cost / content basis. And it's a long climb to match the established infrastructure of radio.

Mix in the ability for radio to re purpose and add value onto content, and it's a tough game, with no clear winner.

I'll bet there is no blowing past. If anything, there will be just a stronger incentive for radio to really manage the expectations it is setting. Should that happen, it's not really going anywhere soon.

Each of us thinks we want greater choice. If we are actually presented with it however, we will find having that choice means actually having to choose! There is an effort in that which costs us. Addressing that cost is a primary, core, radio value add. And that's exactly why daily relevance is one of the key drivers going forward.

@semoochie: Did it drop back to the main analog channel then?

Sorry...

To sum up, the dynamic in play actually indicates radio should focus on less overall choice (as in not trying to focus on too many niche groups)! Adding value, by leveraging "cool", is highly likely to set expectations more in line with what radio can deliver well, and with that will come a higher degree of overall satisfaction.

Instead of thinking, "man I wish I could hear my music --that would be cool", it's about, "man, this station plays a lot of great music, and it's cool." The difference being the expectations set!

In the former case, that's one all about chasing the end of the rainbow. You get close, but always are frustrated in the end. Not a game one can win.

In the latter case, it's the daily journey that's fun, not the end result.

This is absolutely key, IMHO.

...and it's why adding another tech platform won't really do any longer term damage!

Semoochie:

Couple of HD radios that I am playing with mute the HD-2 if the signal is reduced below that required for reception (but still recognizable as a HD signal). They will hold indefinitly on muted HD-2 while the radio trys to re-acquire the stream.

On severe loss of the HD signal (no longer recognizable to tuner as a HD signal), they will hold on the muted HD-2 channel for a minute, then drop to the analog main channel. I have not observed instant drop from HD-2 to analog on either the BA Receptor or Sangean HDT-1.

If signal is increased, the BA will come back to HD-2, the early version Sangean comes back to the HD-1. I think Sangean has fixed that problem in later units.

I thought it was the way the system was designed but it could depend on the type of unit. Maybe, the signal became extremely weak while the buffer was being used up.

I don't think that there is any "standard" established for dealing with loss of HD-2 (or greater) signals, so differences between receivers are observed.

I would like to see some user controled options that could be set up and stored for each HD-2,3 pre-set, for example:

1. Hold on HD-2,3 (muted) until signal returns.
2. Hold on HD-2,3 for "x" (enter a number) seconds then:

A. Revert to main analog channel.
B. Switch to CD player. (or any other player connected)
C. Switch to another frequency. (input Frequency)

3. Broadcaster controled (such as the auto switching to an alternate channel on RDS/RBDS receivers).

Option "2-C" and "3" should allow cross band switching. If a HD-2,3 channel is used to transmit an AM stations programming, the AM station could be the "back-up" for the HD channel.

My JVC will mute for quite a while while the HD-2 is unreadable, but will eventually drop to analog (and never return to HD2).

> WiFi and NetRadio in the car will blow past it.

When WiMax or similar technologies become available in cars, I could see one of things happening:

1) Internet streams through WiMax become a "poor man's satellite radio."
2) Consumers discover WiMax as a way of being able to use non-broadcast entertainment services, such as Pandora, while they drive.

Although #1 might be a big deal for a small number of people with very demanding tastes, I think that most consumers would see #2 as the primary attraction behind Internet multimedia stuff in the car.

By the way, has anyone yet tried to package the following as a consumer product: A car MP3 player with WiFi that automatically checks for and downloads podcast updates when the vehicle is not being driven?

I noticed KOOL 105.9 was without HD for a couple days until today. Don't know why.

Now that I have an HD radio in the car, I tend to listen to music stations more. The difference between KHITS and KOOL is noticeable in that KHITS does not have HD. It is like when color tv came out. Didn't want to watch B/W on the color set. So, I don't listen much to CBS FM stations lately.
KEX sounds better in HD but not much there to listen to. Just because 1330 is HD doesn't mean I am going to listen to it, either.

I do have problems with the HD-2 programming though. I cannot understand those stations that program the same basic stuff on HD-2 that they do on HD-1. Such as KOOL. I don't want to hear the same songs on 1 and 2 at different or same times. Pointless. Should put something different on 2. Like 50's or something else. As in a different option.

On AM, can adjacent channels affect reception in HD? I get the HD light flashing on 1530 from Sacramento at night and can hear hash on 1540 and on 1520 when 1520 fades out. But can the signal on 1520 interfere enough so that the HD won't lock? I am in a null area of 1520 in east county at night. It is like a distant station at night.

Kool is hit based whereas its HD2 is rock based hits. It isn't the same format.

The KQOL HD transmitter was down for 24 hours so that we could service the power supply of the amplifier. The manufacturer sent out a service bulletin and a bag of parts. Too bad one of the transistors in the bag was bad. By the time we tried to rack the power supply back up, the east coast service department had gone home for the day.

...and here I thought no one was listening.

"Kool is hit based whereas its HD2 is rock based hits. It isn't the same format."

Sounds the same to me. Has some of the same plays.

At least KWJJ-1 and 2 are totally different. Not even similar.

I don't believe Rock On plays any disco, for instance. Most stations share SOME music. K103 has some of the same songs as Z100!

Kool has been playing much less disco as of late.

Looks like the same mix, from what I can see.

I will rephrase: Kool is a hit based station. It plays songs that were hits in the 60s, 70s and to some extent, 80s, regardless of genre. They play rock, pop, r&b, ballads and whatever still tests well, if it was a hit during that timeframe. Their HD2 is not hit based. It's rock based. They only play hits that are rock based. It has more in common with KGON than Kool because both stations are using the same base. Unfortunately, the industry has borrowed(stolen)the Classic Hits name for what is really an updated Oldies format.

If anyone wants to hear HD AM with decent processing playing music, tune into KEX, now! They're running their annual Christmas music until later today. I think it sounds pretty good on older music.

This is the best sounding music that I have yet to hear on AM HD. My wife, who usually cringes when I tune in an AM HD station admits that it "sounds good" !
Two things here, KEX is strong enough that I receive the full stereo digital signal, not the poor sounding mono "core mode", and the folks at KEX seem to have found a sweet spot, processing wise...Good work, there may be hope for AM HD yet.

They kept advertising that you would still hear news breaks on the hour but they would go dead air for five minutes at the top of the hour.... I heard it at 11PM and someone told me it was still that way at 5-6AM

Yes, 1190 KEX sounds MUCH better than 1640 KDZR!

I noticed that 97.1 HD2 had dead air throughout the day. What happened?

Love HD

I've noticed that Kool's HD2 is much lounder than the main channel, lately! I'm not sure that's such a good thing.

I threw a different processor on it before I took off for a week and a half vacation. Now that I blew the dust off my Carver TX11b at home it looks like I've got to focus on KQOL analog a bit. I'll be adding processing to the KEX stream tomorrow morning as well. It is currently just running through an Aphex chain (Compellor/Dominator).

Yes, 105.9 has always sounded a bit too "dull" to my ears.

I noticed today that KBOO's HD is lower volume than their non HD by at least a factor of two.

...and several seconds behind.

I see that Roseburg and Klamath Falls have been added to the list of markets with HD radio stations.

Probably JPR

Brooke Communications I believe is bringing HD to Roseburg.

They're all Dept. of Education except 950 in Roseburg.

All 4 of the new HD stations (KSRS-91.5 KTBR-950, both Roseburg and KSKF-90.9 KLMF-88.5, both K-Falls) are in the Jefferson Public Radio group, License ownership appears to vary, with the 3 FMs listed on the FCC site as Oregon Board of Higher Education, and the AM station (KTBR) as JPR Foundation Inc.

http://www.ijpr.org/

I'm sure that HD sales in KF will take off now!

I wonder if you can even buy an HD set there.

Do they sell them at WalMart? If not you'd probably have to go to Medford to get one...

now that its the 21st century you can buy things like this on line if you happen to live in Kfalls.

I understand they're flying off the shelves in Vermont after the public stations started promoting it!

The Radio Shack in Klamath Falls could be selling HD Radio products.

Wonder if this wouldn't be a good cross-promo idea. The Myrtle Beach guy, doing AM Stereo, does this. They plug a shop that sells radios that make the most of the stations modulation technology.

No reason why this couldn't work for *any* modulation technology.

Do some remotes, promo the tech, run regular informative positioners (localized ones), and some spots for the shop that is carrying the gear and expertise.

That shop sees some more business, maybe enough to warrant the investment necessary to carry the gear (better be, I guess), the station gets that connecting element, and it's all centered around that market, where ever it is, and those people, who ever they are.

In the shop, put up some line cards, detailing the stations and the new options, so people can check it out, pass them around, etc... Couple these to a drawing of sorts, and put that online and regular mail. Winners get radios and or something that builds on the idea.

Walking in then, one gets the HD experience, learns about their local media options, new tech build outs, what that means, who is involved, what the programming is like, etc... At the least, it's a serious differentiator, making the Sat choice an actual choice, not just a pure numbers game on number of channels, etc...

Of course, the usual Crutchfield ads help, but are not the backbone of the thing.

Seems to me, the smaller markets, might see the HD2 option somewhat differently than larger ones do. More choice carries more weight as there is less overall choice in general.

...and some local content could go on the HD2, and it might do really well! It's not like the HD2 puts the main channel at risk, so why not --as long as the costs are not too high otherwise.

(and there has just gotta be a way to manage that)

That model, by the way, centrally produced in "HD promotion in a box" kinds of ways, can be assembled somewhere, and leveraged by anybody who thinks they've got a shot at getting a return on it.

Have Ibiquity and the majors fund 3-5 sample efforts, pool the learning, refine the collataral, package it, then make it available and easily localized.

Seems to me, HD Radio is a value add product. It's not really new, in that we've already got radio --it's just better / different radio. (depends on your point of view)

Value added technologies almost always do better when there are local people working to demonstrate and leverage that value.

It suit-speak, the air war is going nicely. General awareness of the tech and it's overall value propsition is growing. So far, so good.

But, there are a ton of Sat outlets everywhere, and articulating the value differentiators between Sat and HD radio, other than "it's free", are not so easily done that way.

Ground troops are needed to make connections, touch people, and get them to buy.

Over the next 10 years, market share is key. Failure to capture enough means a marginal return on the tech investment. That's why these kinds of things are important for everybody in the chain, from receiver manufacturers all the way to broadcasters and content creators.

It's very expensive to just do something like this, with no support. Ends up being custom, and the chances of a home run are diminished because those involved might not leverage everything in the best way possible. They are likely to do this because of cost.

Corners cut actually hurt the thing.

So, lowering cost, by providing an "in the box" package to build on, helps anybody doing this to better apply their market knowledge and talent to the actual problem, not the meta-problem, that comes with all the core materials and processes necessary to get it done.

Touching people makes the money. Getting everybody together to close the deals necessary only empowers making the money. So, that's gotta be fairly easy, which is why I posted what I just did.

So, by and large why is HD radio better than regular FM to Joe average? Joe average who goes to the Shack or Wally Mart to get his HD receiver then stuff it into his car with the $5 speakers. I know HD will sound better with good speakers and an AMP but most Joe's won't gain that big of an improvement would they? An unpowered head unit getting shoved through dime store speakers. Give me the old days when you took the head unit to a pre-amp EQ then to the power amp and out to the speakers.

After replacing my front speakers, I have come to the conclusion that under the right circumstances, with the music processed well in the first place that HD radio does indeed sound like a CD! I've heard quite a few of these examples on the Smooth Jazz channel. Usually, there's something in the midrange that just misses but sometimes, at least to my ears, it's truly great!

From a technical point of view, "Joe Average" isn't going to care very much. Thus, what is being pushed are some features of HD Radio that were not available with analog broadcasts. One such feature that (I think) I heard advertised on KQOL is the ability to synchronize your IPOD with songs on KQOL's playlist. I have no clue how this feature works, since I don't own an IPOD or an HD-Radio tuner. Another feature that has been pushed (and that we've talked about on this board) for quite some time is multicasting.

After a very quick search, I found the following article that explains the IPOD synchronization feature advertised on KQOL:

http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0049/t.9023.html

From the consumer's point of view, the feature works like this:
1) The IPOD is docked into a HD-Radio that has been designed to support this feature.
2) As the songs play on the radio, a playlist builds up inside the IPOD
3) The IPOD is then connected to a computer. The user is then prompted regarding which songs on the playlist (s)he wishes to buy.


The RWonline article also shed some light on what the reasoning might have been behind why Portland's CC employees received IPODs in their Christmas stockings last year.

Coming soon to all the Clear Channel and Entercom stations near you.

I was just a bit excited last night when on my way home I noticed my HD radio said "Mark & Dave 4-7" on the screen. I've been wondering when they would start doing that on KEX.

IMHO, that's a very cool feature. Nice tie-in of both technologies.

Great Screenname and Great Movie!

---

quote:

"Bomb, this is Lt. Doolittle. You are *not* to detonate in the bomb bay. I repeat, you are NOT to detonate in the bomb bay!"

---

I think that Clear Channel has correctly determined that IPODs are not just going to "go away," so they had to figure out some way in which broadcast radio could remain relevant to the owners of these players. The clever part about this feature is that to build up the playlist, the IPOD has to be docked into the radio. Thus, the user has to listen to the radio and not the IPOD.

Is this an I-Tunes exclusive or will it work with other download services?

I gathered from the article that what Clear Channel is doing is only going to work with iTunes. Apparently, Clear Channel developed their own proprietary software to do song "tagging" at the radio station. HD-Radio song tagging can be done by either AM or FM band broadcasters.

However, if you look at the sidebar to the right, there is a company called "Jump2Go" that developed a similar software package that can be licensed to other stations. The Jump2Go system can send the tags either over an HD-Radio stream or via RDS. Additionally, the Jump2Go system has been designed so that services other than iTunes can be supported in the future.

I-Tunes tagging is Apple and Ibiquity. Stations have to broadcast the iTunes Store I.D. information as each song plays.

See http://www.ibiquity.com/broadcasters/tag

How the I.D. gets from whatever plays the song at the station to the receiver is what companies like Jump2Go provide.

...or RCS, which makes the NexGen automation system. This is not a Clear Channel proprietary software package. Anyone is able to buy it as an integrated approach to automation and HD importer software. Version 2.7.4 of NexGen adds extra fields to the Song production header to accommodate iTunes tagging.

10 dB HD power increase? That should help reduce the "dropouts";

http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0100/t.11018.html

decrease the zzzz hd noise Power on 1180 and 1200,it interferes with 1190KEX,what a waste of spectrum!!!!!!

Pot, meet kettle.

It would be nice if this could address dropouts, but it may not address that issue. When I compare signal coverage of our stations at Skyline, the only difference I notice from increased power, is better reach of the HD signal. KQOL (120 watts), and KKCW (560 watts) experience dropouts in the same areas in the shadows of the West Hills, down through Lake Oswego. These are purely terrain and antenna issues.

We would most likely see an extension of the signal coverage for the HD signals, as well as better building penetration. Maybe those little rattail antennas from Boston Acoustics will actually be useful.

A 10db increase in power could be very costly, even on stations that have already implemented IBOC. For our stations it translates into new transmitters. Consider that 120 watt KQOL will now require about 1000 watts RMS. That is, if we have the isolation in the antenna/combiner system to handle it.

"KQOL (120 watts), and KKCW (560 watts) experience dropouts in the same areas in the shadows of the West Hills, down through Lake Oswego."

So does this imply that the dropout problem in this area is really more caused by multipath effects rather than low signal strength?

I just assumed everyone was running 1% of analog ERP. That would put KKCW at around 1kw. How much power would K103 run with a 10db increase? Is the dropout problem caused by the analog signal sometimes weakening to the point it doesn't decode to digital? If that's the case, I don't know what they can do.

"decrease the zzzz hd noise Power on 1180 and 1200,it interferes with 1190KEX"
Actually, there is nothing on 1180 or 1200 around here so it doesn't interfere with anything AND it certainly does not interfere with 1190. In fact, it improves the sound quality of 1190 with HD.

Semoochie:
The HD signal does not require the analog signal to carry it. In fact, there have been examples were an analog FM transmitter has failed and people listening in HD did not notice anything wrong... warning: keep at least one old analog monitor in the studio!

I assume the powers stated above are transmitter output not ERP.

As close as I can read my slide rule, I think the answer is about 4,670 Watts.

The HD powers I mentioned are TPO. Well, technically the dropout problem is always a low signal strength issue. The point of my post was that you can't always solve that by pushing more power out of the same antenna. My best guess is that a 10 db power increase would give solid HD coverage in Corvallis, but only marginally improve reception on south Macadam Ave. You can call it multipath, shadowing, etc. It is just kinda impossible to push a signal in that frequecy range through the amount of earth in the West Hills.

In the case of K103, 4,670 watts for TPO is a good estimate. The current 3kw transmitter just couldn't handle that kind of RMS. Also consider that if the HD signal is switched to expanded hybrid mode (MP3 or MP11), that also requires a slight increase in power output to handle the extra digital carriers. We could then be looking at closer to 5000 watts of average power (not peak, like analog).

It's good to hear of the independent state of HD radio. I don't know why I thought otherwise but believed it to be just in full digital mode. Down the road, they could probably employ digital only boosters in problem spots. Thank you both!

It may be a while before we see digital-only boosters. Take a look at the preliminary test report from NPR labs; http://www.npr.org/euonline/kcsn_report_1.pdf

It sounds like the current Ibiquity system is not putting enough address information in the packets to get them all in the right order from multiple sources. This doesn't rule out the possiblity of this in the future if it is deemed important enough to warrant the development time.

Thank you Chris! It looks like some more work is needed in that area before it's very reliable.

Speaking of Signal Reports:KEX analog signal is quitenoisy in SE Portland!!!!!!!!!!!has there been any kexHD reception in Anaheim?how aboutAnchorage?

Back to FM HD Radio power for a moment. Some bigger HD transmitters are on the air now.

They're not needed at Skyline now because of the relatively high gain of the 8-bay master FM antenna into which they are combined.

Since KNRK is "high-level combined," which wastes 90% of the separate HD transmitter's power, and KNRK's 1-bay antenna has loss and not gain, the KNRK HD transmitter puts out about 1200 Watts to match the analog transmitter's 12 kW.

Because of the lower gain of the 4-bay backup antennas that they use, the HD transmitters of KGON and KYCH have to put out almost 900 Watts each.

10 dB more FM HD power will mean that the HD ERP will be 10% of the analog instead of 1%.

The real problem with the power increase is with the newest tube-type low-level combined FM+HD transmitters that are straining to put out that 1% of HD (about 200 Watts in KWJJ's case), like the one we're going to put on KWJJ. The cooling air that the transmitter sucks in can't exceed 80 degrees or it will "fold back" the ouput power.

You can see a picture of part of KGON's Broadcast Electronics HD transmitter at http://www.fybush.com/sites/2007/site-070309.html . It's the box full of modules on the far right of the "KGON" picture.

Harris shows an FM HD transmitter that will do 3.5 kW, too. To do more they want you to combine 2 of them. Harris will be the presenter at the next Portland SBE meeting.

Nautel makes a 3 kW FM HD transmitter (http://www.nautel.com/v10_hdr.aspx) but there's no links to the ones they show up to 12 kW.

Finally Broadcast Electronics shows an FM HD transmitter capable of 5.6 kW at http://www.bdcast.com/hierarchy/product.php?maj=104&sec=206&cls=313&prod=444&lan g=ENG

> KEX analog signal is quitenoisy in SE Portland!

After a drive to Las Vegas last weekend, I have a slightly different perspective about the nighttime HD interference. I am not too worried about stations like KEX that send much of their signal out to the ocean. I am now more worried about stations that are farther inland.

While I was out in eastern Oregon, Idaho, and Nevada, I tried to listen to CKMX. Unfortunately, 1060 was completely covered by IBOC sidebands from other stations. There were other frequencies at various points on the dial that suffered from IBOC interference, but this one seemed to be the worst.

Does anyone here listen to OPB's Accessible Information Network on HD Radio?

I've been told it's available on HD Channel 3 in Portland, but that only "GEEKS" (not me) and radio station people actually have the equipment to receive the signal.

Thanks for any input.

Radio Lady Ellen Kimball, Beaverton, OR

HD radios are available at Car Toys and many other outlets such as Radio Shack and Best Buy.

The audio quality on KOPB HD3 is low-fi.

So, what's the content quality?

Isn't it the same thing that is still available on the SAP channel of any stereo TV, ie the revamped Golden Hours feed?

The audio on ch 10 SAP seems to be about 25-30 seconds ahead of the audio on KOPB-HD3, but it is the same program.

I tried listening to the KOPB HD3 channel recently, but the levels were cranked up way too high, causing massive distortion.

I'm curious who told you that you were outside some special listening group? It would be very disappointing if it came from someone who worked for a station that is running it.

I would agree that KOPB-HD3 sounds awful. The HD2 sounds decent enough, but is just running the PAD from the exciter. It would be really helpful on a diverse music format to see title and artist. It would be nice to see OPB step up on the technical side a bit.

I wouldn't expect a delay on the SAP. How long can KMHD and KBOO continue to not delay their analog signal? I was in Canby awhile back and at first, thought it was a medley!

I just tried to re-check the ch. 10 SAP to KOPB-HD3 delay and can't hear "Accessible Information Radio" on ch. 10 SAP right now. Before, when the same program was on both, the delay between ch. 10 SAP and the KOPB HD-3 FM channel was 25-30 seconds, not the usual 7-8 seconds HD delay.

That is a pretty normal delay for the SPS services. If you were able to listen to the realtime HD2 audio compared to its encoded broadcast signal you'd find a similar delay. The SPS (HD2, 3, etc.) is being encoded at the Importer, passed to the Exporter as packets, then fed to the exciter. The MPS (HD1) audio is encoded at the exciter or Exporter (depending on setup). The Importer to Exporter packet transfer takes a little longer.

Mind if we fire off another root thread?

(hope not!)