But I'm still not going to vote for Edwards.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,294291,00.html

Why am I not surprised you'd get excited about an empty suit. The guy is a total phoney and Trixter loves him. Anyone surprised.

Deane, Trixter didn't say he likes John Edwards. All he said was that Edwards "might be right."

I think I misread his post. Now I feel better.

DA said>>>
I think I misread his post. Now I feel better.

Just like you and Herb to get all excited when you smell blood in the water and you find out it's YOUR kool-aide

OPEN YOUR EYES and READ! Teach that to Herr Herb too.

Trixter, I've become so conditioned to what your threads are going to say that I don't usually even need to read them in order to answer.

That's plain just ignorant.

Actually, Trixter, Deane is right.

You're that predictable.

I mean, like Mr. Nixon, I'm far from perfect, but aside from your 2nd Amendment position, your defense of all things leftist pretty much takes the cake for a Republican.

If it's left, Trix is pretty much on board. Kudos, however on getting the 2nd Amendment right.

Herbert M.

Herb said>>>
You're that predictable.

As are you.

Herb IGNORANTLY said>>>
If it's left, Trix is pretty much on board.

So FAR from the truth. But hey, that what YOUR about Herb.

Trixter, face facts for once and don't spin.

Other than the 2nd Amendment, you side with the democrats most of the time. What gives?

Herbert Milhous, not a RINO

Herb said>>>
Trixter, face facts for once and don't spin.

When you don't I won't..... Until then I'm spinnig like a top.

Herb also said>>>
Other than the 2nd Amendment, you side with the democrats most of the time. What gives?

I DO NOT agree with DUHbya and Co. on about 85% of their policies just like %60+ of the American people. Their policies are majorly flawed in more than one way. I was NOT a Slick Willy fan but the way you CONers went after him over every little thing he did for 7 1/2 years.
Payback's a BITCH huh????

What I don't get is Herb's incessant whining about us "RINOs" as he paints us, Trixter.

Let's look at some of the not stereotypical Democratic things that Clinton didL

-The first REAL welfare reform in years. It made it harder to get it.
-He BALANCED THE BUDGET! **WITHOUT** sticking it to the middle class.
-For all this talk about him being so damn soft on military, he did send our boys in harms way in Somalia and Bosnia.

Now, let's look at some of the less-than-"conservative" things that Herb's own Mr. Nixon did:

-Established the EPA and signed into law environmental bills.
-Set up and subsidized the U.S. Postal Service as it is today.
-Opened the door to China and established diplomacy with the Communist regime.
-Signed into law the 55 mph bill, to conserve gasoline
-Created OSHA

If you agree lockstep with Nixon like you always espouse Herb, doesn't that make you a little more liberal? Does Bill Clinton seem more conservative now?

Get off your high horse.

The perception of what is right, and what is hard right has shifted right to a degree that makes it difficult to be a moderate of any kind, without being called liberal.

It's the pro-abortion and anti-Faith stuff that is more likely to indicate leftism these days. Sure, there are plenty of fellow travelers like Mrs. Clinton who want to go with things like socialised medicine. But anti-life and anti-God appears to be the commonality among many leftists now.

Herb

Herb, I have found that the right talks about God, while the left talks to God. One can still be pro-abortion and still believe in God.

Here's the problem, Radioblogman. It's not such an amazing thing that anyone believes in God.

"You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder." James 2:19

Herb

So anyone who is pro-choice and has an issue with the Church is a dreaded leftist Herb? THAT is what you are telling us? What does that make Giulani?

You remind me of the father of one of my best friends ... he once told me that Catholics cannot be Democrats because ALL Democrats are pro-choice and pro-gay and no Catholic is ... thus they MUST all be Republican!

He is also the same one who told me to not ever enter a room with three black people and if a third black person walks into the same room as you, to leave ... because three black people in the same room are nothing but trouble waiting to happen.

Sounds ridiculous doesn't it? Well ... as you're so fond of saying Herb, "Not so fast ... "

"So anyone who is pro-choice and has an issue with the Church is a dreaded leftist Herb?"

You're learning. That's the tendency. As for the racist stuff, don't muddy the water. There are plenty of bigots in both parties and yes, that even includes our esteemed 37th President. However, in his defense, he did appoint numerous Jews within his cabinet.

Yet the democrat Dr. Howard Dean has even been known to make a racist remark or two...and I dare not even whisper the kind of vile stuff attributed to Mrs. Clinton whilst in a violent rage at the White House.

Herbert M.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=religious+zealot

""So anyone who is pro-choice and has an issue with the Church is a dreaded leftist Herb?"

You're learning. That's the tendency."

Wow, way to paint everyone with a big fat broad brush. Way to assume that just because someone is affiliated with one certain faith or another that their viewpoints MUST BE set in stone lockstep with their church. Way to assume that all Christians are staunch conservatives, incapable of self-thought.

Even though that it is not racist in the context that we are not talking about ethnicity or a "minor group", that is EXACTLY what stereotyping someone of a different racial background is.

Is it REALLY different? Is it REALLY muddying the waters?

You do realize that you are making yourself look more and more like a Neanderthal, don't you?

"Way to assume that just because someone is affiliated with one certain faith or another that their viewpoints MUST BE set in stone..."

Don't lie about what I said. I don't lie about what you said.

I said that's the tendency. Not all the time. Not MUST BE. That's the tendency.

Herbert Milhous Nixon IV

And you wonder why so many of us registered Republicans (yes, including Trixter!) are disenfranchised with the direction of the GOP to the point where we are strongly considering voting for someone else! The right turn the Party has taken is just unacceptable.

http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/O/7/minibush.jpg

Personally, I don't think the Republican party has turned far enough right.

You guys wanna keep seeing drug-addled kids in school systems like Oregon where they
1. Attend fewer days than any system in the US?
2. Have pathetic scores and high drop out rates?
3. Cost us among the highest per student?

We need hard right approaches like school vouchers. Competition will ensure that poor minority kids can attend the same schools as the wealthy. You see the hypocrisy among liberals in Washington like Mr. Gore, as HIS kids attended elite private schools.

Herb

"But anti-life and anti-God appears to be the commonality among many leftists now."

This is just some dogma Herb chooses to accept. Over 90 percent of this nation self-identifies as being religious. Of that percentage, a very solid majority self-identify as some variant of Christian.

So, Jesus is getting the good treatment for sure. That's all good.

A brief look at our National politics reveals a body roughly divided into thirds.

One third has it's majority self-identifying as conservative, Christian and exhibits the pro-life, "anti-faith" agenda.

Here's the takeaway:

The other two thirds, one being somewhat independant, and one self-identifying as liberal, both also have their majorities being Christian, but without the hard line pro-life stand, and the "anti-faith" being a strong factor in their politics.

What this means is the statement, "anyone who is pro-choice and has an issue with the Church is a dreaded leftist" is not a true statement. It's not even all that supportable, given our coarse breakdowns.

It also means, this is absolutely not a black and white issue.

On the matter of faith, Christians, generally speaking, are all over the map. Democratic, GOP, left, right, moderate are all well represented in large numbers of churches that differ significantly in their moral stands.

Given the breakdowns above, one could support the idea of conservative evangels being a strong group, growing and in majority status, among Christians in some parts of the world.

One cannot however, present that as being a Majority American stand. The numbers just are not there.

It is absolutely not a matter of left -vs- right framing because:

-the right has no particular ownership or authority on matters of faith

(Again, look at the religion numbers and our political breakdown. Most Americans are religious, and clearly as a nation, we enjoy being able to FREELY practice our faith as we see fit.

Not to mention the LAW of the land, which insures we are all FREE TO WORSHIP as we see fit. Period, end of story. FREEDOM of RELIGION means ALL RELIGIONS, not just some of them.)

-stands on pro-life vary among both major parties

(Poll after poll support this, with our breakdown falling somewhere near middle ground, on average over extended periods of time. Where we have majorities we have them on extreme framing. In general terms, a clear majority of people remain pro-choice in terms of absolute regulation.

***Which is exactly what I put up the balance here a while back. Would pass in a minute, as most people want to achieve that balance.)

-There is no supportable evidence for the idea that Americans in general are leaning conservative. For all but a few major divisive issues, the typical American view is into solid progressive territory. That information has been presented here, not rebutted, repeatedly.

Bottom line:

This is divisive politics, aimed at forcing the matter for a lesser good. If you buy into this whole discussion, you then attach value to it, thus taking value away from the core American ideas that regulate how this stuff goes.

From there, one is sucked in, distracted from the wider body of issues and our national ability to make rational decisions suffers accordingly.

Proceed as you will, but do it with eyes wide open.

"...this is absolutely not a black and white issue."

Coming from liberals where everything is grey, including the defense of pedophile-defending groups like the ACLU and NAMBLA, this is a surprise?

Herb

Just reality.

Religious zealots like Herb are becoming increasingly marginalized, and as a result, more desparate. This is evidenced by, "Personally, I don't think the Republican party has turned far enough right."

Well, if you think the party hasn't turned right enough, then you are by definition an extremist. Extremists are never happy with status quo because they are controllers, and won't be happy until they control every aspect of our personal lives, including religion, taxes, schools, freedoms, and privacy HOW THEY SEE FIT.

Problem is, our form of governemnt relies on compromise, and when you don't compromise, you tend to get booted as was evidenced in the 2006 ass kicking the GOP received.

Back the ACLU and defend NAMBLA all you want.

The only ones marginalized are leftists with positions like yourself.

Herb

"Back the ACLU and defend NAMBLA all you want."

First off, I don't defend NAMBLA. I never have, and have been very clear about that. So, you are lying about that. But, I do back the ACLU, because civil liberties are more important to me than just about anything else. Without civil liberties, every thing else goes down the tubes.

And, I'm not being marginalized nor am I a "leftist". My positions are ones majorities of Americans agree with, which is why I'm in the maistream and you're an extremist.

You back the ACLU which backs NAMBLA.
That's like disavowing something evil like slavery but backing a candidate which supports it.

Herb

>>>"I do back the ACLU, because civil liberties are more important to me than just about anything else. Without civil liberties, every thing else goes down the tubes."

There is some interesting thought there. I've been thinking about the concern for civil liberties by so many liberals on this board.

Everyone worries so much about Bush et el snooping on some overseas phone call that doesn't mean squat while we have lost a ton of civil liberties in this country, thanks to the terrorists whom the left would prefer we pretend aren't around.

If you stop and think about it, you can't get on a plane without being subjected to incredible scrutiny, identity confirmation, even xrayed so they can see the size of your pee-pee on the screen.

If you're a school student, you can't even take an aspirin for a headache without being suspended.

I won't make this post "Missing size" by going on and on, but you can think of a bunch of stuff for yourself.

Folks, our life has changed and our freedom in this country is disappearing at an alarming rate while you focus on Bush.

Herb, the ACLU does not back NAMBLA. That's a lie too. For some reason, I thought telling bald faced lies was not something you so-called religious people do? Care to explain why you continue to lie?

Deane, I don't think the left would prefer we pretend the "terrorists" aren't around, anymore than the right pretended they weren't around pre-9/11. However, in a free society, a line must be drawn in the sand as far as how free we are, and the Bush Adminstration has gone too far in it's approach, which is most likely to make up for their lack of an approach pre-9/11. Personally, I'm willing to take a tad more risk in order to live freely. Why hand the terrorists a victory right off the bat by giving up the very freedoms they wish to deny their own?

The ACLY does back NAMBLA's right to meet.

I lived in calif a few years ago, and the ACLU sued to allow NAMBLA meetings in the local library.

Vitalogy, you may have missed my point. My thinking is that we are losing our freedom right and left and it's happening at many levels.

The freedoms I see us losing are directly affecting us in a big way. From school administrators, most of which I can't stand, to other agencies that are taking it away a step at a time.

Monitoring overseas phone calls doesn't bother me a bit. I don't plan to call any overseas terrorists.

Does backing their right to meet mean that they back what they believe in as an organization? As I said, they do not back NAMBLA anymore than they back Jerry Fallwell. They back civil liberites NO MATTER WHAT, which is what they are supposed to do.

And one other thing, WHAT IS THE FASCINATION WITH CONSERVATIVES OVER NAMBLA? Seems awfully creepy to me. If it wasn't for conservatives, I would have never heard of NAMBLA.

I don't have a dog in the ACLU/NAMBLA fight.

"I don't have a dog in the ACLU/NAMBLA fight."

I wonder if Michael Vick does...

sorry, back to topic.

I don't either, but when I see people claiming that the ACLU supports child rape, I speak up because I can't in good conscience let people get away with such BS claims.

"Missing Size" hehe... Guilty as charged.

Oh well, passion needs an outlet right?

Scroll it or read it, I've always said.

Gotta agree Deane. I will qualify that with the obvious realization that we are losing said freedom largely because we've very poor leadership. Processes need people to keep them relevant. This, BTW, is exactly why I'm not granting any GOP votes, unless said vote is for a stand out --clear American. Bush is not a good leader, but sadly the GOP is more than willing to engage that whole thing, harm or not.

We didn't lose freedom because of the terrorists. I think this is something worth some discussion as well.

We lost freedom, and continue to lose it because:

-we are engaged in a lot of divisive politics

(that's the post above)

-we let fear and self-interest trump being American.

All the terrorists in the world cannot erase the inherent right to freedom, our nation realized for the world. That's really our greatest hit right there. If there is a legacy for the USA, it is that one single new political idea and how it is connected to self governance through the consent of those so governed.

If we are losing freedoms, it's because we forget who we are, what it means and why it matters, not because somebody helped to level a few buildings.

I'm sorry, but that's Bush. He's the guy that's supposed to reinforce that, bond us with that common cause, project and cultivate strength and unity surrounding it.

Honestly, I don't care so much about all the more minor issues these days. Those debates are welcome things that happen when an otherwise unified, strong and capable people are trying to make things better.

To get there, we've got to have the basics down and that means not cultivating fear and exploiting it.

Perhaps to some, that is a distraction. Maybe it's because they don't understand, or lack the strength to follow through on those thoughts. Agreed there.

But, if we can't be rational about how we got here, how the heck are we ever gonna get back?

Vitalogy is spot on. There are some lines that have been crossed that never should have been crossed. Score one for the terrorists, zero for us.

Game is clearly not over yet however. Solid leadership, that will work hard to put the priorities back into place, set expectations about how we handle these things, engage one another and work through our differences as Americans, will help get us there.

If not? Again, how else does it happen?

"...the ACLU does not back NAMBLA."

You've got some explaining to do.

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=18029

http://www.operationlookout.org/lookoutmag/aclu_to_defend_nambla.htm

http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2005/06/17/aclu-and-nambla-a-match-made-in-hell/

This kind of liberal linkage is pointed out for many reasons.

It shows the muddled moral nature of liberals.
It highlights the left's hypocrisy.
And it is undeniably true.

The left is livid about 'One nation under God' whilst also attacking the Boy Scouts. But they'll provide lawyers Pro Bono for a child molester organisation.

Spin that.

Herb

Herb, you'll shatter these liberals view of their world. They want to pretend things aren't as they are.

Herb, you may not like this, but the ACLU stands up for the CONSTITUTION. They don't give a rat's ass if they like someone or not. If someone's constitutional rights are violated the ACLU will back them up. While that means the ACLU sometimes winds up seeming to support some disgusting people, at least you know they would be there for ANYONE (as when they defend people whose religious freedom has been violated under the First Amendment).

Sometimes, people like you, Herb, confuse support for someone's rights with support for THEM. I agree with the ACLU, that we shouldn't limit someone's constitutional rights just because we think they are vermin. Same with the Neo Nazis. Let 'em march, they have the right, even if I wish they would fall off the earth somewhere instead.

As for NAMBLA: they are disgusting, and there should most definitely be laws against the things they advocate. That doesn't mean the group should have its rights violated.

Andrew

>>>"As for NAMBLA: they are disgusting, and there should most definitely be laws against the things they advocate."


So the ACLU can waste more of the court's time. Right on (as they used to say).

"...the ACLU stands up for the CONSTITUTION."

Right.
This is from StopTheACLU.com.
You ought to really like #7.

TOP 10 MYTHS OF THE ACLU

http://stoptheaclu.com/archives/2006/02/09/stop-the-aclus-one-year-blogiversary- blogburst-top-ten-myths-about-the-aclu/

Herb: "Don't lie about what I said. I don't lie about what you said."

Bullshit. You just lied about what Vitalogy said. A quote that intentionally leaves out important information is the same as a lie.

Here's Vitalogy's complete quote:

"...they (the ACLU) do not back NAMBLA anymore than they back Jerry Fallwell."

Now stay with my while I walk you through this statement. Vitalogy is saying that the ACLU does not support ("back") NAMBLA any more than they support Jerry Falwell. It is clear that Vitalogy is saying that defending the civil rights of a group or person does not mean that they endorse the values, beliefs or actions of that person/group, be it Jerry Falwell or NAMBLA or George Bush or Terry Schiavo or the American Nazi Party. If you believe that defending the rights of someone equates to endorsing the actions of that person, then the lawyers that have defended murderers, thiefs, etc. in court all clearly are in favor of murder, etc. - correct?

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." - Voltaire*



BONUS BONE TO CHEW ON: What the heck is the ACLU doing here?!


"ACLU Fights for Christmas Tree"

"ACLU Files Suit to Protect Free Speech Rights of Christian Protesting Wal-Mart's Policy on Gays"

"ACLU of Rhode Island Files Appeal on Behalf of Christian Prisoner Barred from Preaching at Religious Services"

"ACLU of New Jersey Joins Lawsuit Supporting Second-Grader's Right to Sing "Awesome God" at Talent Show"

"ACLU of WA Wins Right of Christian Minister to Preach in Spokane Plaza"

"ACLU Defends Rights of Christian Group to Make Religious Protest at Funerals"

"ACLU Backs Christian Abortion Protester in Ohio"

"ACLU Backs Missouri Nurse Penalized for Wearing Cross-Shaped Lapel Pin"

"ACLU of MA Defends Students Punished for Distributing Candy Canes with Religious Messages"

"Following Threat of ACLU of Virginia Lawsuit, Officials to Agree Not to Ban Baptisms in Public Parks"

"ACLU Defends Christian Group's Anti-Abortion Ads On Phoenix Buses"

"ACLU Pledges to Back Church in a Zoning Battle"

"ACLU Offers To Represent Private Prayer on Public Property"

"ACLU Joins Falwell To Fight For Church Incorporation Rights"

http://www.aclufightsforchristians.com/

*may be Evelyn Beatrice Hall (see Wikipedia)

...and what Andrew said.

Coming from liberals where everything is grey, including the defense of pedophile-defending groups like the ACLU and NAMBLA, this is a surprise?

Herb

Hey Herbster, this guy could join NAMBLA, and he ain't no liberal


FOXNEWS.COM HOME > POLITICS
Details Emerge on June Arrest of Sen. Larry Craig

Monday, August 27, 2007


Sen. Larry Craig, R-Idaho

WASHINGTON — Sen. Larry Craig was arrested in June in Minnesota and paid $575 in fines and fees for a misdemeanor charge of disorderly conduct, FOX News learned Monday.

A Hennepin County (Minn.) District Court spokesperson said Craig's case was put off and could be dismissed after one year of unsupervised probation. A 10-day prison sentence was stayed.

"Senator Craig was continued for dismissal. The conditions (for dismissal) are no same or similar" violations during his probation period, the spokesperson said.

Details of the arrest were first reported in Capitol Hill's Roll Call newspaper. The paper states that a plainclothes police officer arrested the Idaho Republican during the course of an investigation into lewd conduct complaints in a men’s public restroom at the Minneapolis-St. Paul International Airport. A spokesman for the senator called it a "he said/he said misunderstanding."

The whole NAMBLA thing is just a way for right wingers to smear the ACLU.

I'm not sure which is more sad: That some people read the headline and take the statement as the truth, or those that purposefully and knowingly mislead those that read the headline.

The latter for sure.

Simple ignorance can be both forgiven and fixed!

Intent to mislead, and worse --leverage said ignorance is not so easily forgiven. Once started, likely not to be fixed either.

Herb...
Once again you have been shown the ERROR of YOUR ways. Did you by chance READ anything that Edselehr wrote or did your ignorance get in the way???

So long as the left bends over backwards to defend the pedophile's mouthpiece, that's your deal.

And if you want to spin that, take it up with a Higher Authority than I.

Matthew 18:6
Numbers 32:23

Herb

Here's the beauty of it:

A majority of Americans have! Remember, that 90 percent number Herb. Combined with our rough political breakdown and we end up with most people quite happy with the ACLU --and they've got their highest authority endorsement to boot.

It's actually the same one, in a very high number of cases, you subscribe to.

A higher authority wouldn't approve of your consistant habit of lying either.

Eddie 4:20

That's it...on my next vacation, I'm going to HerbWorld!

I'll join you!

I think I went there one Sunday morning. It was the only church I've ever been in that had a big table full of right-wing political propaganda in the front entry.

troll sez: "take it up with a Higher Authority than I."

I just heard from Him. He told me that you're full of BS!




Ever since I started "hearing" things from Him, I'm starting to like Him. He's not at all anything like many of you who claim to be speaking on his behalf portrays Him to be. Keep your faith thoughts to yourself and let God to the lightning bolt throwing Himself.

Vit said>>>
A higher authority wouldn't approve of your consistant habit of lying either.

Herb... READ this carefully! YOUR Propaganda machine isn't working with the sane people.