http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/08/22/iraq.democracy/index.html

The ability to truly see what it realistic after genuine effort was all that I really ever wanted in a situation like this.

This single NEW mindset gives me more hope than I have had in 5 years. I'm not going to say " We told you so " or " What a complete mess and I will hold a grudge forever." I have been past all that for years with Bush. ( Although, yes, occasionally he has made it hard with particularly stubborn moves and policies and overly rosy messages and completely false expectations, to say nothing of the inability to even DEFINE victory ).

But to even suggest that this most recent reason for being there isn't really going to work, gives me tangible hope for an end to this.

Everybody wins with this NEW realization. It may sting for some to have to grasp at this NEW last straw - which was one that was offered as a likely outcome from the very beginning, so it's NOT hindsight - as the new mindset. But I don't care. It's reality.

That's all the rest of us EVER wanted.

This is great news.

It becomes increasingly apparent that the only thing the Iraqis understand is a Saddam style government.

That is good news.

Acceptance is an important step.

The cynic in me still thinks this realization is about oil. Under a real Democracy, we are not gonna see control of that oil.

Under something else, it's highly likely we will. Either way, de-escalation of the violence is only a good thing.

The upside being a sharp reduction in the killing and squabbling.

Deane, I'm not inclined to agree. The message of Democracy was not exactly delivered well. Our current leadership makes poor ambassadors to the idea. Had we actually not chosen to engage Iraq on the cheap, done the infrastructure build outs, etc... they might be considerably more receptive today.

Maybe not too. Not saying you are wrong, just saying that it's not a forgone conclusion one can make. Too many other factors.

The terror in Iraq exists today, largely on the horrible quality of life. Essentially there is nothing there to fight for, so they fight for whatever they feel makes the most sense.

True. I will stop short of saying that if we had done a better job of presenting the Democracy we wanted to bring, it would have been better. Because we just don't KNOW that to be the case. Heck, at this point even if we had done everything right we still don't KNOW that it would have been accepted. Who knows? It could even be worse. You have to at least acknowledge that possiblity. So maybe this is the best we could have ever expected.

As long as we work within what we have, as opposed to what we think they want, I am hopeful for an end.

And and end is all I want now.

Agreed completely.

This is beyond "winning". Just start the long healing process and we all can move on to bigger and better things.

No kidding. We all want it too. Crap, I don't even care is Bush gets praised and history judges him as a genius for ending it. Just make it stop already.

And as much as it pains me to state it, Bill Maher has a pretty good record of calling it like it is. His predictions have taken a while to come true - but they have.

Bill Maher...

Yep. I think he catches a lot of crap for his personal choices. However, his analysis is often solid. IMHO, that trait is what makes his show a good one. He's totally willing to just put stuff out there for discussion.

"It becomes increasingly apparent that the only thing the Iraqis understand is a Saddam style government."

Dick Cheney knew this in 1994, but for some reason had a memory lapse in 2003.

Vit said>>>
Dick Cheney knew this in 1994, but for some reason had a memory lapse in 2003.

Evil people are way to smart to have memory lapses. He knew what he was doing and now we're all paying for it and will continue to pay for it for DECADES to come.

Thanks DICK!

"It becomes increasingly apparent that the only thing the Iraqis understand is a Saddam style government."

Bush1 knew this in the early 90's and pulled out before he gummed up everything. Unfortunately Bush2 never learned to pull out when not wearing a condom.