Abu al-Zarqawi died, and George Washington met him at the Pearly Gates.

George Washington slapped him across the face and yelled, "How dare you try to destroy
the nation I helped conceive!"

Patrick Henry approached, punched him in the nose, and shouted, "You wanted to
end our liberties, but you failed!"

James Madison followed, kicked him in the groin, and said, "This is why I allowed
our government to provide for the common defense!"

Thomas Jefferson was next, beat al-Zarqawi with a long cane, and snarled "It was evil men like you who inspired me to write the Declaration of Independence."

The beatings and thrashings continued as George Mason, James Monroe, and 66 other
early Americans unleashed their anger on the terrorist Leader.

As al-Zarqawi lay bleeding and in pain, an Angel appeared. Al-Zarqawi wept and
said, "This is not what you promised me."

The Angel replied, "I told you there would be 72 Virginians waiting for you in
Heaven. What did you think I said?"

George W. Bush died, and George Washington met him at the Pearly Gates.

George Washington slapped him across the face and yelled, "How dare you try to destroy the nation I helped conceive!"

Patrick Henry approached, punched him in the nose, and shouted, "You wanted to
end our liberties, but you failed!"

James Madison followed, kicked him in the groin, and said, "This is why I allowed
our government to provide for the common defense!"

Thomas Jefferson was next, beat Bush with a long cane, and snarled "It was evil men like you who inspired me to write the Declaration of Independence."

The beatings and thrashings continued as George Mason, James Monroe, and 66 other early Americans unleashed their anger on the former President.

Then he went to Hell.

Classic leftist spin.

Most telling is that these liberal wizards don't have a problem with Al-Queda. Instead, they reserve their venom for our President.

And these democrat Einsteins wonder why they're seen as soft on terror by the majority of voters?

Keep it up. The democrat-controlled Congress already has an approval rating that has sunk below Mr. Bush. And 2008 is getting closer and closer.

Herb

Blah Blah Blah Blah Leftist Spin Blah Blah Blah Blah Ham Fists Blah Blah Blah Blah Fetus Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah
Yawn...

Keep it up. Voters don't like democrats with no plan whilst playing the blame game.

http://www.galluppoll.com/content/?ci=27937

Herb

Keep it Up was the third album released by Loverboy in 1983. With tracks like 'Hot Girls in Love', the album became an instant hit, and reached #7 on the charts.

Or:

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0071273/

I can!

By the way, is anyone watching 'Rock of Love' with Bret Michaels from 'Poison' on VH1 or 'On Demand'? So bad it's Hilarious!

"liberal wizards don't have a problem with Al-Queda"

This has never been said.

Nobody favors terror. A growing majority of us are tired of watching a lame and stupid fight.

Better to change things up, actually be safe, deal with terror and maybe not end up broke ass for the next few generations.

"...Better to change things up, actually be safe, deal with terror..."

How can the left accomplish these laudable goals when they fight against our surveillance of prospective terrorists and wish to pull out of Iraq only to leave a vacuum for a terrorist haven?

Specific proposals that are better than what we have now is what's needed. Not fuzzy, non-descript platitudes.

You say you have a better plan? Then let's specifically hear how you'll accomplish your goals. I'll even help you out: we start with the three way partitioning of Iraq mentioned here a while back. But who will keep terrorists in check...the laughable UN?
You also have to answer for your pals in the ACLU who hamstring our ability to monitor terrorists.

Herb

This would be a great discussion if it were not for the liberals in here that ruin every topic by bringing everything back to Bush. They obviously do not get enough of the guy, love talking about him even in topics which have nothing to do with him..,
Amus sounds like Anus in more ways then one

Oh yeah?
Well I'm rubber you're glue!!

BTW:
What's a then one?

Cochise is absolutely right.

For ONCE, let's hear a plan that doesn't involve Mr. Bush-he's a lame duck anyway, and if the left expects to win in '08 they'll need a blueprint.

So what is it?

Herb

"liberal wizards don't have a problem with Al-Queda"

Herb, that statement is such a joke it's not funny.

We "liberal wizards" have been saying all along that we should have gone after Al-Queda and Bin Laden instead of starting a war with Iraq.

Wait a minute.

We hardly started war with Iraq. Saddam started it whilst shooting at our planes in the UN-sanctioned no-fly zone. On top of that, he was convicted of genocide against his own people.

You wanna defend the guy, or you wanna give us a plan to fight terror now?

Herb

Actually, Saddam started the war by invading Kuwaitt, we signed a "Cease Fire" not a peace treaty, when Saddam violated that, it was the same as his restarting the war.

Same in Korea, if either side violates the cease fire, the war can be resumed.

Even better.

Point well made, Nwokie.

Herb

You guys are a real piece of work. You do know that there were no terrorists in Iraq prior to us invading, right? Now it's a hotbed for terrorism. So, what does that say about the Iraq war? Our actions have created what we are fighting today!

At this point, I'm tired of my tax dollars being wasted and I'm tired of our troops getting killed and injured for a bullshit war that has made things WORSE, not better. I say get out of Iraq all together and let them figure it out on their own.

After all, we went there to disarm Saddam, and that's been done. Time to come home and let the Iraqis shed their own blood as they figure out what they want to do with their country, as we've got work here at home that needs to be done.

Amen, Vitalogy.

And I wasn't "defending the guy."

Is your entire world just black or white?

Oh, wait, I know: "You're either with us, or against us." Right?

PRIME DIRECTIVE

As the right of each sentient species to live in accordance with its normal cultural evolution is considered sacred, no U.S. personnel may interfere with the healthy development of any country or culture. Such interference includes the introduction of superior knowledge, strength, or technology whose society is incapable of handling such advantages wisely. U.S. personnel may not violate this Prime Directive unless they are acting to right an earlier violation or an accidental contamination of said culture. This directive takes precedence over any and all other considerations, and carries with it the highest moral obligation.

Beam me up Scotty....there's no intelligent life in Washington DC!

How's this for a plan?

It's a simple 3 step process really.

1. Collect Underpants
2. ?
3. End War

I say keep our base in Antarctica. If we pull out, the terrorists will flood in.

My only case is if you go in, do it right, or don't do it at all. It's a war. In a war, civillians die. Tragic but true. If an enemy chooses to build up in civilian areas, then you can't pussyfoot around. The general population knows there are enemy among them. Unfortunately as an invading army your only chance to succeed is to level the city. It's the main reason WAR SUCKS. Innocents die. I don't need the media telling me civillians are being killed by the US Army. I know that. I also know there is no good solution to end the Iraq or Afghanistan problems. Status quo solves nothing. In Afghanistan, we've only repeated the mistakes of others, pacifying the cities while the bad guys escape into the hills to pop up where and when they choose. Iraq the same. We don't fight an army; That war was won. We fight shadowy figures that plant boobytraps. That war can't be won. In a hundred years, the Germans could not have stopped French, Greek, Yugoslav, and other partisans from their respective countries from doing the same to the Nazis that our own troops undergo. It went on despite the ruthlessness and revenge that the Nazis extracted on the innocents. We are not that ruthless. So how do you win against this type of enemy? You don't. You decide what are acceptable losses and continue. The problem with Iraq is that there is no goal to acheive and no prize to be won. Under those circumstances, no losses should be acceptable.

This will raise the hackles of some. Bring them home, profile the hell out of prospective immigrants and deny visas to ANY one who fits. Solve our own problems before the world. Find a domestic use for the hundreds of billions being spent on this war. Bridge repair? Medical care? How about budget cuts and putting money into the taxpayers pockets?

"The problem with Iraq is that there is no goal to acheive and no prize to be won."

Earth to Roger: If we leave Iraq now, please explain how allowing the terrorists to take over the vacuum we leave, whilst controlling the majority of the global oil supply is going to make us safer.

That doesn't even factor in the bloodbath once Israel-hating, nuclear developing Iran steps in, with no one to check them.

You guys are a real piece of Neville Chamberlain-esque work.

Spin away.

Herb

Quite simple really.....if they start to develope this shit then our Stealth Bombers can just take out those targets. Precision strike, in and out, wham bam thank you mam! No lingering to talk afterwards, just drop the load and leave!

Stealth technology.
I like it a lot.
But would that be enough without boots on the ground?
Nwokie, as a vet, you wanna weigh in here on this one?

Herb

Pretty strong deterrant. Don't do it our get splattered!

Earth to Roger:

I'm sorry the number you are trying to reach has been disconnected. Please check the number or dial the operator....

yep, choose your targets. We have some advanced weaponry available just for this reason. The group of homemade bomb makers in Anbar poses no threat to Coos bay citizens... sattelites and other technology certainly can pinpoint potential long range problems. Israel has taken out potential nuke problems in the past. They wouldn't hesitate to do it again. Do we have the balls to pre-emptive strike?

We now return control of this thread to you...

Hey, if we can prevent terrorists from taking over Iraq without any of our troops over there, fine.

Herb

That's the spirit.

Gotta love the righties spinning like a top. Wheee!

Oh yeah!

"If we leave Iraq now, please explain how allowing the terrorists to take over the vacuum we leave, whilst controlling the majority of the global oil supply is going to make us safer. "

Well, terrorists are there now, and a lot of Iraqis like them! Why? Because we have been complete asses and they want us gone.

So, if we actually leave, the Iraqi people have their quality of life as a powerful incentive to get things running better than they are now. The terrorists lose their prime target and training fodder as well.

Of course, that leads to the "fight them there" so we don't "fight them here".

Newsflash: They can do both you know. "Helping" the Iraqi people is excellent training --and it's on our dime, with our troops and a lot of our weapons. Gotta just love that.

There are reasons why they've not attacked here again. (and that's worth some discussion) It sure isn't because we've kicked their asses there is it?

As for control of the oil, that's a nasty one. Getting ourselves into this dilemma more or less warranted a more solid invasion effort to begin with. Nation building and resource locking on the cheap does come with it's risks, now doesn't it?

There are no good scenarios that I can see.

We stay, and that oil costs us an assload. Net loss really.

We stay, and that oil also costs us politically, or we end up facing a lot of other problems because our dependancy can be easily leveraged, just like a junkie can be leveraged. This is a net loss too.

We stay and really just level the place, get control of the oil --well, our multi-nationals get control of it. This costs us a lot in terms of both dollars, people and reputation.

(This one is not bad, but I think we are actually weak enough to not have the means for it.)

But we get control and all is good for a while. Given the clusterfuck this all is, we would have at least won something, somehow.

We leave and the Iraqi people form a government of their choosing, control the oil. They sell back to us, but in exchange for a lot of consessions. (A big ass, I'm sorry, lasting years.)

We leave, terror ends up ruling, they too sell to us, but cause a lot of global trouble, being terrorists for hire.

We leave, Iraq burns for 10 years, while everybody jumps in, hoping to clean up where we didn't. Oil is wasted, we arrive at peak far sooner than anyone expected. Financial meltdown for us. (along with a batch of other nasty things)

Of course, if we come clean and expose our real motives, we've got some options!

We stay, come clean, thus building some real trust over there. Iraqi people realize they've got a shot of some sorts, with the alternatives being pretty nasty. So we clean up, right this time on our dime and people again. Iraqi people form or modify existing government, no multi-national contract is signed, they control oil, but treat us decently after a fair number of years.

We leave, come clean. This one is interesting! The Iraqi people are not happy with us and what we've done, so they organize and make their own deals. God knows how that will come out, but it will.

They leverage our error for generations. The world is reminded of these things and the risks involved, we make a stand, represent the right way of doing things, end up helping the Iraqis for a very long time, pay top dollar for oil too.



So, let's lay out scenarios! I don't think this has been done. Anyone mind a thread hi-jack?

How could it go? Assume nothing and just think through this, like one would for a game. What are the possible endings?

So far, not many of them are good. Are there good ones? What do they look like, what would it take in general terms? What options does Bush have, that actually matter and not just run out the clock?

Bush will run out the clock, and force overtime.

No, Bush has loaded the bases and will leave office with a full count complaining that the umpire is not calling strikes when in reality the pitches were in the dirt.

Yeah, have it your way lefties.

Roll over for the terrorists.

Herb

Allright, I'll admit it. Herb, you are right. We "lefties" LOVE the terrorists. LOVE THEM! We want them to come here and kill us all. We want America destroyed. Yeah, that's the ticket!

Happy now?

Oh, I get it. Tee-hee.

"72 Virginians"

Of course, you could just give the terrorists 3 1/2 packs of cigarettes. This would allow our forefathers to put their boots into the Shrub's ribs without interruptions.

American Spirit cigarette's no less!

Where are those winning scenarios Herb?

Love terror, hate it, you gotta admit we are pretty fucked right now.

Most of the "winners" I've heard floated all involve really long time lines --as in run out the clock long.

Kind of reminds me of those monkey traps. You know the ones with the spikes on them.

Reaching in is easy. Seeing the prize is easy.

Thinking the whole thing completely through --in other words, having an exit strategy is tough. Can be done, but is tough.

So, the chimp just sees it, reaches in, grabs hold and....

DAMMIT! Stuck!

What to do now?

If the chimp lets go, it all was for nothing. If he just pulls out, it's gonna get ugly and there is a chance of still leaving the prize there.

As long as he just stays there, he's good to go! The prize is in hand and all is good. No need to lose face and admit having gotten himself into a bad situation.

That's where we are right now.

Substitute Bush for Chimp, Iraq and Oil for the trap, terror is the little spikes and man, it's just ugly.

Fugly actually.

"you gotta admit we are pretty fucked right now."

That is an understatment.

In the ass, with the (above) spikes.

Fisted.

(ducks and goes to work!)

Ham Fisted

With extra sleeze.

Colorful retorts, all....

...covering the entire ham, so it goes in just a bit "easier".

the gloves are really going to go on now!

If you are going to fist a ham, gloves are a must.

I recommend the shoulder-length variety like Vets use on the bigger farm animals for stuff like insemination, breech births and fecal impaction.

to cut down the hand-wringing afterward?

Exactly!

TOEcheese said>>>
This would be a great discussion if it were not for the liberals in here that ruin every topic by bringing everything back to Bush. They obviously do not get enough of the guy, love talking about him even in topics which have nothing to do with him..,
Amus sounds like Anus in more ways then one

HOLY SHIT!
You EXTREME RIGHT asses are the reason why the congress was overtaken by Dems!
Read you sentence again TOEcheese. JHC on a popsicle stick. When you guys were going for Clinton's head for 7 1/2 years you thought NOTHING of bring him up at every turn. So turn around is fair play???
Stick that in your juice box and suck it!