Wow, Herb, looks like the gloves are really going to come off between your pal Rudy and New York City Firefighters:

http://www.reuters.com/article/politicsNews/idUSHO18482120070711

Find a link to the video (YouTube) here:

http://thecaucus.blogs.nytimes.com/2007/07/11/firefighters-take-on-giuliani/

Andrew

My guess is that when it comes down to it, labour will back their own people and those are likely democrats...even as union members are being sold down the river by both parties.

I disagree strongly with Mr. Giuliani on the pro-life issue, but he's very good on fighting terror.

Herb

I don't mean to hijack this thread but I have been curious and need to ask Herb a question.

You have stated here several times you voted for Alan Keyes over Bush. Why? Also how do you think Keyes would have handled 9/11 (Somewhat of an unfair question) and what's his stance on Iraq?

Thanks ahead time. Now back to Andrews thread. I apologize.

Hijack away, Chris!

Herb, while we're on the subject of Keyes, how do you feel about Alan Keyes's lesbian daughter? Do you think that reflects badly upon his skills as a father raising his daughter?

Andrew

I did find this on Wikipedia concerning Keyes stance on homosexuality.

"Keyes was also criticized for his views on homosexuality. In an interview with Michelangelo Signorile, a gay radio host, Keyes defined homosexuality as centering in the pursuit of pleasure, literally "selfish hedonism." When Signorile asked if Mary Cheney, Vice President Dick Cheney's avowed lesbian daughter, fit the description and was therefore a "selfish hedonist," Keyes replied, "Of course she is. That goes by definition." Ironically, Keyes' daughter, Maya Marcel-Keyes, made a public appearance the following Valentine's day in Annapolis, Maryland as a gay rights activist. Keyes responded by kicking her out of their Maryland home and suspending payments of her college tuition."

Nice fatherly love and support for your own child.

I'd spit on Keyes' grave for treating his own child like this. Geez.

"I have been curious and need to ask Herb a question. You have stated here several times you voted for Alan Keyes over Bush. Why? Also how do you think Keyes would have handled 9/11 (Somewhat of an unfair question) and what's his stance on Iraq?"

I indeed voted for Alan Keyes over Mr. Bush in the primary and given that the election was in 2000 before 9/11 and the Iraq war, I'm not familiar with his specific positions on them since then. Were the vote taken again today, I would again vote for Alan Keyes for president over Mr. Bush.

There are many reasons to like Mr. Keyes. He's stridently pro-life. I would also like the first black president to be a Republican. It was democrats like Mr. Gore's father who voted against the civil rights act. It passed because of Republican support. As much as the left tries to forget, Republicans are the party of the Great Emancipator, Abraham Lincoln and Mr. Bush has nominated more minority cabinet members than other presidents.

Mr. Keyes is in a unique position to lead by example in many areas. These include bridging race relations to show African-Americans and Hispanics that Republicans share with them many values and do not take them for granted like the democrat party has for so long. Personally, I also appreciate his bible-based views on life in general and as a Ph.D., he's especially intelligent as well as a very good speaker.

We can disagree with Mr. Keyes on his relationship with his daughter, but 'tough love' is what some young people need. It's odd that the left wants to embrace Mr. Cheney on the issue of how he relates to his daughter, but they detest the guy in virtually every other area.

Herb

It has been almost six years since the World Trade Center terrorist attacks. On top of that, Guiliani hasn't been the mayor of New York City for years. It seems a bit suspicious to me that any group would bring forth criticisms of Giuliani's handling of 9/11 now, instead of back in in 2001.

But they have criticized him since 2001. And Rudy himself is the one who has been making an issue of his service as America's Mayor on September 11th. In fact, one could argue that Rudy's being NYC mayor on that day is a centerpiece of his campaign. So, is it valid for his performance as mayor on that day to be criticized, since he has made it such an issue?

I see it as kind of a left-wing Swift Boat thing. I don't know if the firefighters' criticisms of Rudy are valid or not. They certainly don't seem to be the out-and-out lies that some of the Swiftboaters made. I confess, I mostly started this thread to bait Herb...

Andrew

I understand that there is a distinct difference between politics of the firefighter union leaders...who under the banner of big labour backed Mr. Gore big time...and the rank and file firefighter.

Herb

Rudy made damn sure that every ounce of precious metal was pulled from the rubble before the firefighters remains were found. Once the cache of silver and gold was accounted for, the rest of the pile made the pilgrimage to the Fresh Kills landfill. Since rescuers, firefighters and victims remains are being found at the site to this day, one knows full well that many of the fallen went to the dump.

Giuliani has made millions of dollars as a "motivational speaker" in the wake of 9/11. He was also in charge when the warnings about the dangers to the rescuers, firefighters and volunteers who toiled around the clock in the wake of the disaster were covered up. He also was the first to refuse compensation to victims, rescuers, firefighters and volunteers. He did subsidize companies with the swelling treasury, but not individuals. He was in charge when Halliburton was given the clean-up contract and booted all the locals off the site without so much as a thank you. He was in charge when the administration began balking at a full investigation, and he said nary a peep about it.

This is not about your little boxes of "labor this" and "liberal that" my friend. This is about a mayor's unfettered greed before, during and after two horrific terrorist attacks in his fair city. This is about a mayor turning a police force into an enforcer of martial law, a catalyst for racial division, and a willing hand to the corrupt, the criminal and the corporate. This is about a mayor who created a New York City that is actually less livable for all but a wealthy handful of residents. If you do not see this man for what he is, you really ought to do some more research. He is quite possibly the only major candidate that makes Dick Cheney look like a cheerful candy striper in a cancer ward.

The facts will show that Mr. Giuliani is a friend of the rank and file fireman, but not their politically-influenced union leaders.

Herb

HERB,

HE BURIED DUMP TRUCK LOADS OF RANK AND FILE FIREMEN!

*ahem*

Sorry folks, but it had to be said loud enough to be heard.

I guess to Herb a "rank and file fireman" is a Republican or at least an Ed Koch/Zell Miller Democrat. Any firefighter who doesn't support Giuliani is of course not a patriotic American...

Andrew

Thats BS, a very few bone fragments, have been found that were overlooked.

Of course they could have disposed of the rubble using garden tools and brushes, it would only have taken a few decades.

"I guess to Herb a "rank and file fireman" is a Republican or at least an Ed Koch/Zell Miller Democrat."

As Mr. Reagan would say, "There you go again."

I would gladly accept an 'up or down' ballot vote by ALL firemen on their like or dislike of Mr. Giuliani, because I'm not a fireman.

But don't hold your breath, because labour wouldn't want such a vote to become public, for they would then lose power with their higher-up union bosses. That's what would happen when the truth came out.

But Mr. Giuliani is hardly my first choice in this, so I actually don't have much of a dog in this fight, anyway.

Herb

Since Giulani isn't your man I'll hijack once again and go back to Keyes.

Can you be more specific on why you voted for Keyes over Bush? Give me a side by side comparison. Take me shopping if you will.

"Can you be more specific on why you voted for Keyes over Bush?"

To be fair, it's a challenge to go into great detail. That's because Mr. Keyes wasn't given the opportunity to develop the track record of Mr. Bush.

And while both men are I believe sincere in their convictions, Mr. Keyes seems more bold in his beliefs. He's also unashamed to distance himself from others and take unpopular stands. Kind of like Jesse Lee Peterson of BOND.

http://www.bondinfo.org/about/jlp/peterson.htm

Imagine how marginalized Mr. Keyes must be from the majority of African-Americans. That takes GUTS.

These days, all the poll-driven position taking is nauseating. It seems like most politicians stick their finger in the wind to determine what they think. Senator Gordon Smith and Mr. Clinton come to mind in that department.

Simply by being a Republican, Mr. Keyes has shown that he's unafraid of what others think. He's truly a man of conviction.

Mr. Bush is sincere, but I really like Mr. Keyes.

Herb

From reading about Peterson on the link you provided and from reading more about Keyes both men come across to me as divisive.

"Bold" is a word thrown around by many of my conservative Christian friends and it's like a buzz word that says to me "I'm going to put my opinions in your face whether you like it not." Another way to put it is "it's my or the highway."

I find people who think like this to be controlling, abusive (not physically), and unapproachable. They seem to attract those who need someone else to think for them.

Martin Luther King Jr. totally outclasses and out "Bolds" both Peterson and Keyes...by a long shot. But his approach was not "Bold" as in abusive language but "bold" as in making a real difference. I think Peterson and Keyes talk a good game but King Jr. lived it.

I can see why you like Keyes though, he's right in line with your philosophy and political and religious realm.

Thanks for taking time to answer my questions.

One idiot firefighter who's a shill for Hillary is not the rank and file of the Firefighter's Union. If you don't recall, Hillary was booed mercilessly by this same Firefighters union the last time she appeared in front of them.

Beware of claiming the union leadership represents the rank and file. Remember, most union memberships include 30-40% Republicans. Even the Government unions.

I'd venture to guess the Firefighters union, whith probably a majority of Democrats, is 99% against the fakir, baloney-filled, posturing, insincere Hillary.

Both Hillary and Rudy like to climb into Donna Karan undies and swagger through the streets of the Big Apple. Neither is interested in anything beyond expanding power and paying back favors. Ill temper or Il Duce, it is the same shrill and whining pathos from these two. They are both the devil in Prada.

Neither of them have done anything to help the folks who made the ultimate sacrifice on 9/11, neither of them have insisted on a full and transparent investigation, and neither of them can keep a stiff upper lip when they break a nail. Neither of them would make a President we could support.

Littlesongs, you did a fine ham-fisted job on two candidates, but from where I sit, Mr. Edwards has far less gravitas than Mrs. Clinton.

Herb

Honey baked, glazed, and spiral cut for the ladies. Seconds anyone?

John Edwards is not my horse either, although it is nice to see a white guy from the south discover that rampant poverty is an issue. Funny thing about walking out those front steps. He must have had a little stroll through his district. Or maybe, he had a little chat with the half million unrepresented poor of Washington D.C.

Or perhaps, he visited Hillary and Rudy, snuck out of a thousand dollar a plate dinner and wandered around. Maybe he discovered a ladder underground where he saw the tens of thousands of homeless New Yorkers who live in the subway tunnels, the sewers, beneath abandoned buildings and yes, at one time, even under the World Trade Center.

"...it is nice to see a white guy from the south discover that rampant poverty is an issue."

How you can give Mr. Edwards the kid glove treatment is as vexing as the left giving Mr. Gore and RFK Jr. a pass for their carbon-spewing globe-trotting.

Given his $1,000 haircuts and opulent mansions from ambulance chasing, Mr. Edwards' talk about caring for the poor seems to ring hollow. Even liberals don't trust the guy.

Bob Shrum Exposes Edwards as Lightweight and Phoney

http://liberalvaluesblog.com/?p=1571

Herb

Herb writes:
Bob Shrum Exposes Edwards as Lightweight and Phoney

Gee, ya don't think old 0-8 Bob might harbor some sour grapes about Edwards not hiring him this time around, do ya?

I wasn't aware Edwards got wise and dumped Bob the Loser. Thanks, Herb, I may have to support Edwards now after all. Anyone who dumps Shrum automatically increases his chance to win anything.

Andrew

Be my guest and vote for the guy.

Like Mr. Gore and Mr. Kerry, Mr. Edwards is a warmed over candidate who politically can't win the big one.

Go Edwards!

Herb

I just love when you get cocky Herb.

This isn't coming from a Bush-hater stance. But as I look at all the candidates, I would take ANY one of them over Bush's " leadership."

I makes me, as a Democrat, have to keep my cock in check so I don't just start strutting around professing to know the future so well that I just " know " whomever I pick will be great. There's no guarantee. But if I had a choice between replacing Bush with another Republican right now, or waiting to vote for a Democrat - I'd pick a Republican in a HEARTBEAT to get Bush out.

No problem.

A full year and a half is WAAAAAAY too long for me to just know everything. But for right now, I know enough to want change as soon as possible. Just about anything. I'll take it.

And on a sidenote - This era, I believe, will go down in history as a big turning point for our Nation. We've seen TWO terms of the absolute worst it can get in a President. The worst. Forget Nixon's ratings. I don't care. This has been at least 100 times worse and generations will pay for the mistakes Bush has made. It has made us reflect, hone and REALLY think...again.

Man, I hope we have learned SOMETHING good from all this.

I have half a mind ( sometimes less ) to go out on some campaign on my own that rallys people to think. Dig deep. Really decide what you want. Say it out loud. Figure out a way to get it and WORK for it. People would listen.

I would do it myself but I just bought a hammock.

"labour"

Herb, are you a Brit?

"Forget Nixon's ratings. I don't care. This has been at least 100 times worse..."

Without question. And while I think Mr. Bush is an OK president and speaking as a Republican who didn't vote for Mr. Bush in the primary, we can all agree that Mr. Nixon never looked so good.

It's exhilarating to witness the continued rehabilitation of the great man's image, for he never ceased to be a stellar president in my eyes.

http://www.nixonfoundation.org/

Herbert Milhous

"Herb, are you a Brit?"

Nay. Thank the KJV.

Carry on.

Herb

"Mr. Nixon never looked so good."

Everything is relative.

"I have half a mind ( sometimes less ) to go out on some campaign on my own that rallys people to think."

Yeah, me too. If I ever win the lottery, some advocacy will be on the list of things to get done. Simple things, that empower people would have a nice impact. My message would be to get involved period. The follow on would be means and methods that further this goal.

More active citizens, that are better informed, will fix a lot of things.

Heck, I'd pick Spiro Agnew over Bush. At least Agnew was just money-hungry and would loot the treasury to a maxiumum of 10 Million tops. Bush on the other hand has already blown $600 Billion up in smoke (and what an awe that was), killing 3,600 Americans for . . . freedom in Iraq -- is that what they're still saying now?

I suppose there are lots of people who "would" fight or organize, but they are too busy putting food on the table (or watching TV) to do anything.

I suspect this is all part of the grand master plan to rob us of our liberties.

Absolutely true.

One easy way to combat this is to focus on those things that matter, turn off the tube, and step away from some of the rat race.

Not a bad angle for advocacy, IMHO. Crack the media addiction and a lot of stuff changes. From there, it's nearly all good. PVRs are helping a lot of people do this.

The moment TV becomes a medium to consume on ones own time, choices then become viable. It's sure made a difference for us.

(We no longer watch live TV of any kind.)

Hey, guys, the police and firefighters unions in NYC are GOP territory.

I'm a native of NYC and it's a known fact that those two unions are about doing whatever it takes to get their members more money and benefits, and it's not political; they are just naturally street fighters. It's not surprising that they are fighting Rudy on this; some factions in New York City politics just fight for the sheer joy of fighting.

Politically, they have always been to the right of Giuliani. Yes, that's correct, to the RIGHT of Giuliani. Most of those union members don't live in the city, either; they live on Long Island, out in Jersey, Rockland County, etc etc etc.

"it's a known fact that those two unions are about doing whatever it takes to get their members more money and benefits"

well, duh! What union would be all about getting less money and benefits?

Skeptical, thanks for the chance to clear this up.

They will do anything ... ANYTHING ... A*N*Y*T*H*I*N*G ... meaning their attack on Giuliani is not so much an attack on Giuliani as it is some attempt to get something from the City of New York.

I don't know what they're going after, but the union doesn't take time out of its day to attack someone without an immediate, member-oriented goal in mind. "The best way for us to get 'X' for our people, is to go attack Rudy about radios and 9/11."

Meaning Rudy is more of a convenient tool, not the main target.

Good, we can cross him off the list.

Obvious tools don't get elected. That, plus being married to his second cousin, cross dressing, and an all over the map self-marginalization on reproductive issues means he's cooked.

Maybe he can join Mc Cain as cheerleaders for hard ass, rock star Thompson.

(the guy does look presidental)