Check this out....Warner wanted something worthy to discuss....well it's about time INS got off their asses and did something....drop in the bucket but maybe corporations will get a clue! Hope this hit's them hard in the wallet!

http://www.onelocalnews.com/akronfarmreport/stories/index.php?action=fullnews&id =121827

Allright! Openings at the fruit plant! I'm calling my unemployed-but-has-a-valid ss # son!

OH YES.....Perfect.......

DJFresssssh....Fresh Fruit job for ya dude! You'd be a natural at it!

You could head over there after your shift at SUBWAY....Eat Fresh!

Maybe they'll even let you man the PA Mic for plant announcements!

MAYOR POTTER STATEMENT ON ARRESTS TUESDAY BY IMMIGRATION & CUSTOM ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS

"I am angered by this morning's arrest by federal officers of approximately 150 Portland residents who were working at a local produce company.

I certainly understand why federal officials executed criminal warrants against three individuals who stole and sold Social Security numbers. But to go after local workers who are here to support their families while filling the demands of local businesses for their labor is bad policy. It also serves as a reminder of the failure of our national leaders to deliver an immigration policy that is both fair and humane to families and acknowledges the economic realities of our country.

Our nation would be better served if this kind of energy was focused on creating a comprehensive approach to immigration reform that provides a path to citizenship; addresses the immigration backlog that keeps families apart; and provides a safe and legal way for workers to enter our country and be productive workers and taxpayers. Immigrants provide more than mere labor in our community.

They have long enriched our history, our culture and our city. My heart goes out to families dealing with the aftermath of this morning.

In this morning's raid, no Portland police officers participated, and our Crisis Response Team was activated to help families affected."


I support President Bush's plan, but Potter is coddling criminals.

Why wasn't the local police helping out, aren't they sworn to uphold all laws?

I'm not too sure I've a problem with Potter.

The employers are hiring, so it's a double edged sword there.

The real solution, in my view, is to simply key entitlement programs of any kind, to citizenship period. Not an American, you don't get:

-oregon trail
-ohp
etc...

That will seriously diminish their ability to come here and work for the low wages. Having to actually spend those dollars maintaining themselves and trying to save some send some back is the same problem we all have.

Then, for those already here, put them on a citizenship path, that insures they will be contributing their share and ideally at a higher wage, given the dirt cheap labor makes far less overall sense when not subsided on the rest of our dimes.

From there, I strongly doubt we would have a big problem. Coming here to work, without the support they are getting now will sharply reduce the incentive. If they have skills, or family to help them out, then coming here to become a citizen should not be that difficult and we can always use more hardworking, tax paying Americans.

To me, focusing on the criminal aspect of it is not getting at the root of the problem.

It really chaps my ass to spend time in the Win-co, behind non-english speaking, obviously illegal people, paying for most of their food with an Oregon Trail card, then drawing from a fairly full wallet of cash for the little bits they can't get the rest of us to pay for.

I'm convinced we address that and most of this just goes away.

If you employ an illegal you are breaking the law. I'm not so much in favor of going after the little guy as I am in going after Del Monte in this case. Pin em to the frickin' wall and make em' pay. Once businesses and corporations get the message then the illegal problem takes care of itself.

If they have the proper documentation, you have no choice, otherwise you open yourself to discrimination lawsuits.

You cant tell the difference between a legal immigrant and an illegal.

Thats why the new tmper proof id's are so important. But some states dont want to do that.

There are no tamper proof ID's period. There are only hard to tamper with and easy to tamper with.

We can fix the problem, without having to assign everybody a national ID, that's gonna have a number that's gonna be abused for all sorts of crap.

Simply require proof of citizenship, prior to getting key documents and for obtaining assistance. This is not hard. If one does not have a SSN, then getting the other things are quite a bit harder. That raises the bar to a point where more obvious crime has to be done to get to where working makes sense, etc...

If we did this, one difference would be having a drivers license, state issued ID card, SSN, etc...

For non Americans, we issue provisional ID's that come with conditions, such as not getting access to other entitlements that are by Americans and for Americans.

Those changes would make an illegal person stand out to the point where it would be tough to hire.

The unified national ID is a red herring that does not address the core problem of why we are allowing non-Americans access to services. It is this loop hole that makes the low wages make sense.

Del Monte isn't in trouble, they didn't hire any of these people, they were hired from a contractor. If the government comes down hard on the contractor they just go out of business and then somebody starts a new contractor business.

In simple terms the contractor was the pimp, Del Monte was the John, and the illegals were the prostitutes.

The world's oldest profession just got a new face lift, and it was all done to help the bottom line.

I didn't know how that all worked. Bastards...

And how do they prove their citizenship?
With easily forged documents.

So we work on that aspect of things. Seems to me, we've got a lot of options --just as many options as we have for a national ID. It is the same problem, without all the ugly privacy, abuse issues.

And that really was my point. The discussion should be about citizenship, not work eligibility or any other orwellian term that can be manupulated or supportive of some contrived scheme not intended.


I'm totally happy to support Americans who need it. Heck, we all need it from time to time. I might need it, and almost really fricking needed it! No biggie.

I do not want to support non-Americans and will gladly pay a price premium in order for that to be the case. It won't be that big of a deal, compared to the drain that comes from us supporting people sending their dollars out of the country, while living on our dime here.

Oh, I agree, non citizens shouldnt be receiving any benefits, including the "Grief" counseling offered by mayor Potter.

The problem is identifying who is and isnt a citizen. Having drivers licensing and other "Official" Id organizations requiring some level of proof is a start. And we should not accept the Mexican govts "Consular" cards for anything, but toiulet paper.

Hey, we largely agree. I think accepting the Mexican ID is just bunk. Probably some minor loop hole that allows this to happen that's under pressure not to be closed just yet.

I can see both parties engaging in this.

One thing, that I think is happening, that does not need to be tied to the national ID, is a shake down on drivers license re-registration. When it comes up for renewal, you gotta do the citizenship legwork. For a very high percentage of Americans, this will be an annoyance and they will have time. Maybe give the ones that fall close to the start of the whole thing, some time anyway. No biggie.

What will happen is that we will end up with some of them making it through anyway. So they are now citizens. No biggie there either.

What will also happen is that the numbers of new entrants will sharply drop, allowing our ordinary population growth take care of the problem over time.

Being here is one thing, being here without a license to drive, no services, dependant on others, is quite another. It won't be sustainable and the border problem will largely go away, and our social burden will fall more in line with expectations, making all sides happier.

For some Americans, this will prove to be quite difficult for a lot of reasons. Records destroyed, no living survivors, etc... Something has to be done there, but it too can be identified and capped, so the nature of the solution remains the same.

In the end, we know far better than we do now, who the real Americans are, without having to deal with national ID and the mess that will make of things.

Maybe require it when transferring from state to state too, so moving from a lax one to a better executed one would not make for some states being ports of entry, due to poor controls. If they end up being lax, well, they can pay for it then, can't they?

IMHO, the states doing it right will enjoy clear economic advantages that will put pressure where it's needed to correct things toward a solid balance.

There will be no absolutes to this problem and that's the big fallacy of a national ID system.

BS Del Monte did not know their boat was full of illegals. It's their company so they should be equally liable.

I wonder if Potter would've sent out the "Crisis Response Team" to the illegal families if his own identity was one of the ones stolen.
I also thought something seemed familiar about this place... sure enough, there was a feature article in Willamette Week last month (WW's website has a short blurb about the raid), that had the bent of 'oh my, it's so terrible these people have to work so hard and long and get paid very little...' (insert whining throughout).

Doesnt matter if they know or notm if your an employer, and suspect someone is an illegal, if they have the proper documentation, you cant do anything, or you will be guilty of discrimination.

We should address that law too. If we are worried about illegal workers, then we need to be able to ask people for their citizenship with few worries. Can't have it both ways.

You ask them when their hired, if they say yes, and have the proper documentating there is nothing you can do.

The Social Security office has a death web page, where you can see if someone is dead, or I should say the owner of that SSN is dead.

They could add a site, that givea short description of the owner, IE white male, hispanic female eye color etc.

So if a person gives you a ssn, you can check out if it could reasonable be that person.

Yeah, so we change that. Seriously, it should be perfectly ok to ask if one is American or not. It's actually in our best interests to do this, and one should be more than willing to maintain documentation, prior to getting work.

Having this done as part of a drivers license renewal shake down, would put the effort in one place. Anyone, not a citizen would get a provisional license, but only if they are here for a reason. Anyone not yet able to prove citizenship would get a provisional license, but only for a well defined single chunk of time.

Everybody else gets a new license that's good to go and showing that could be proof enough to really cut down on the numbers.

No legal status, no drivers license = not all that easy to get a job, and fairly modest burden on potential employers.

Won't get 'em all, but it won't be this free for all like it is now. (accepting the Mexican ID is just nuts!) Most services require some identification and there is a federal law that now ties citizenship to some programs. The drivers license change, minus the national ID crap, would essentially address this without huge changes being necessary to existing means and methods of vetting people.

Bottom line is that asking for, or reviewing work status really shouldn't be a discriminatory thing. Just make everybody do it. Given the drivers license ideas above, it would be a complete no brainer to just show it every review period, somebody makes a copy for the record and we all move on.

I got asked if I was an American citizen for my last job, even though I knew the people well. Know what they said? They basically said they have to ask because having people work here illegally is a crime and it hurts all of us. So, what's the harm in asking each year to catch those operating outside the law? It's only discrimination if only some people are asked.

This too will shake down those here illegally in that they would not have job stability and forged documents only last so long.

All of this could be done without having privacy issues and or other nasty agenda items get in the way.

All it needs to be is harder than it is now. If it's significantly harder, then nobody will care. If it's too hard, everybody cares and not hard enough and everybody cares (but the illegals).

I think the only reason more common sense solutions have not been presented is we've got too many companies, who leverage these people, contributing to the problem through contributions and excuses. We've also got other agendas tring to get included in this issue as well.

(That's the national ID bit)

If we, and I mean the people, want this fixed, we just need to really hammer the issue and demand solutions just honor our civil liberties at the same time.

It can be done, but we've gotta want it done right, or we are all gonna get hosed.

This might mean paying more for some products, but I'm completely sure that cost is less than the subsidies we are dealing with now.

Heck, if we have a reduced social burden, perhaps there is enough money to take better care of the schools and begin to address health care. I don't think conservatives and liberals have as many differences as they think on this, but are just being divided by interests who benefit from the non-solution.

One other thing too. I just read a story about a school in Utah that is bringing in teachers from Mexico! So much for those workers only doing the low wage jobs nobody wants to do. This will continue, and granting a free pass to large numbers of people will only make it worse because then the legimate people will just move up the job food chain, harming Americans in the process.

As for the fields, there are plenty of teens and early adults that could do this work. Pay them just a bit more and we've got a more expensive salad or something, but those dollars do stay here in this economy and our social burden is reduced. It's gonna shake out for the better, IMHO.

As for the fields, there are plenty of teens and early adults that could do this work. Pay them just a bit more and we've got a more expensive salad or something.

No one other than Mexicans are going to go into the hot fields for anything less than $20 a hour, plus benefits. How much do you want to pay for your salad? It is hard enough to get kids to work for fast-food joints these days.

Plus, I do not want the drivers' license to be our main ID. I want even illegal immigrants to take the driving test and get a license and insurance for their cars. At a minimum, if we have to have the drivers' license as ID, give illegals a special one until they become citizens.

If their illegal, no drivers license, no public benefits.

The police should occassionally run road blocks, check for license and insurance, if you dont have them, your car is immediatly impounded.

In Oklahoma, if your insurance expires, the insurence company sends a letter to DMV, and they have the cops impound your tags.

Very few people on the road without insurance.

Nwokie, we don't have enough police to catch criminals, much less man road blocks. Plus, if the stops are aimed at catching illegals, the Supreme Court will ban them as discrimination.

I completely agree on them getting a special ID. If this is done, we really don't have to make the drivers license the main ID. (I don't like this either because not everybody drives.) However, the DMV can issue ID cards, that are not a license to drive as well. These need to pass a citizenship check, or be issued with a citizenship status on them.

That must be done, somehow, some way to address things. It should be obvious who is an American and who is not, and entitlements where a lot of things go should be keyed accordingly. This element of the problem is not hard.

As for the $20 / hour fields problem, we can't have that both ways. If that is expensive work, then it is expensive work. So, do we want to subsize that and have cheaper salads, or not?

If the answer is yes, then we can still do that, but make sure Americans are doing the work so that said subsidies are aimed at helping us build wealth, not people from other countries.

I'm ok with that because the dollars all end up here in our economy, and that's the other key.

Having those people consume our resources, while not contributing to our economy is a constant drain elsewhere. That's not good.

However that all shakes out, it needs to be keyed to Americans, and not guests that may or may not actually impact us in a positive way.

Know what?

If I were seriously strapped for cash, lost job, having to work two easy jobs to make ends meet, etc... this would be excellent!

Work some fields, make that $20 and sock some away to improve my lot. That's a seriously good scenario that might just reduce a lot of other problems. IMHO, money well spent.

I'm up for helping fellow Americans, providing oppertunity, etc... That's all good and what this nation is about. I'm not for helping others in this way, who are not American.

We can always use more Americans.

The supreme court would probably not find it unconstirutional, as long as your not targeting how people look, your checking everyone.

And if you cant get tags without insurance, your car is going to be pretty easy to spot.

Since when do non-citizens have any damn constitutional rights anyway? If your illegal then your frickin' gone, deported, AMF!
It's these illegal's and moreso those that hire them for cheap wages that is undermining this great nation, all for the almighty buck! NAFTA.....there's another piece of work for YA!

Due process of law applies period.

Where it goes, depends on ones citizenship.

You have to treat everyone the same initially, you cant just go up to spanish looking people and make them prove their citizenship.

But you can check everyone in a specific setting, such as a workplace, or drivers on a road.

The state of Washington regularly checks cars crossing the river, during the morning commute, and if you have Oregon tags, you better have an Oregon drivers license. The same knid of check could be used to make sure everyone has insurance and a valid license.

Del Monte is a very dirty duck. The company is so poison that Nancy Pelosi dealt with a great deal of criticism in January because of their very presence in her district. Part of the flap stemmed from the fact that when they acquired Starkist, they moved their plant from Ecuador to American Samoa to take advantage of the low wages. No surprise, the McMedia took her to task in an incredibly distorted and convoluted way, while at the same time, cheering on the corporations to keep control.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200701230008
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2007/01/12/AR2007011201966. html
http://www.pacificmagazine.net/news/2007/06/04/minimum-wage-bill-slammed-in-amer ican-samoa

You see, even though our Samoan brothers and sisters are Americans -- or at least have been since we occupied their nation -- they are excluded from our minimum wage laws. Much like the American children of the Marianas are easily exploited, the citizens of Samoa are even cheaper to hire than folks in Ecuador because they earn $3.26 an hour. Think about that for a moment, and count your blessings to be among the elite Americans who actually have representatives in Congress and better than federal wage protection from our enlightened state government.

As far as the latest witch hunt goes, I have had Latin-American friends my whole life, and believe me, even if they are third generation Americans, they can produce identification faster than Jack Webb can produce a badge. As the old adage goes, "If you are not pale, you must think of jail."

Stack the possibility of deportation in that mix, send stormtroopers into workplaces, neighborhoods and public gatherings, and you create a level of fear and distrust in all Spanish speakers, not just the uninvited guests. Of course, with few exceptions, all of the Americas are populated by over 500 years of uninvited guests, so singling them out at this point is pretty stupid.

Stop going after people and go after companies. Or, fall into the same trap as the drug war. Chasing individuals is dumb when you can make Wal-Mart, or Del Monte, or the latest exploiter of the month get hit in the wallet. They have the money folks, because they have little overhead beyond executive salaries, profit for investors and payoffs to inspectors, much like, well, big drug cartels. Ah, the blessed New World Order.

Can you imagine if Del Monte was backed by the Columbian's....Wal-Mart would be selling "Crack Corn" in the fruits and vegetables isle!

Stop going after people, why, their crooks, and in this case they had broken at least 3 laws. Including identity theft, which is a very serious crime.

So go after the coke users instead of those trafficing it....don't make sense man. Cut off the head of the chicken and the body dies.

I agree with this.

You go after both, with out the income from the users, the sellers will wilt on the vine.

Same with illegal's,you go after both the individuals, and the companies, unfortunatly the way the laws are written, its very difficult to go after the companies. I soundly support changing those laws, along with giving them the tools to determine someones status.

More efficient use of manpower to go after the trafficers. It'd be like killing one ant at a time in an ant hill trying to get to the queen. The suckers can reproduce faster than you can kill em off so you never win. Scrape away the ant hill and go straight after the queen.

"Del Monte is a very dirty duck."

It should be noted that Del Monte Foods and Fresh Del Monte Produce (the raided plant) are not the same company. Del Monte Foods sold their fresh fruit division in 1989. Fresh Del Monte Produce is an independent licensee of the Del Monte trademark.

OK, how about going after individuals that hire illegals. Those doing yard, roof repair, etc.

I would like to see every employeer have to check out their current employees. Tell all your workers, you have to bring a certified copy of your birth certificate, and at least one other form of ID, military discharge, school diploma etc.

I would say that being addicted to feeding yourself and your family is the most widespread habit on the planet. Few folks shake it, and those who do are looked at as low-lifes.

Narcotics, on the other hand, create the illusion that life will end without their use. The emotional mindset is the same, life and death, so often the results are the same, life and death.

Jail an addict, and you release an addict. Jail a dealer, and you release a dealer. Treat an addiction and you free the addict to live his or her life in a completely new way. This is how every successful drug policy in other western nations works. Our solution is having a nation worth of Americans in prison.

Furthermore, since this is the magical and well advertised, "Land of Opportunity" you can also create opportunities that make slinging bags seem like too much risk for the money. Less touting of our perverse vision of wealth would also stop fostering illusions that make folks travel thousands of miles and risk life and limb to be in the United States.

Stopping a raft, fishing boat, sailboat or a prop plane is not stopping the drugs, or the immigrants. Those are the tiniest of potatoes, easy marks and merely meant for the news. They know exactly who these cats are, and busts bigger than stumbling on a van full of illegals or lucking out on a cavity search for cocaine, are planned well in advance.

To truly make a difference, we need to stop the tons of drugs carried in ships full of coffee and sweatshop goods. This steady coke fleet is why we were going to turn security and ownership over to the morality-free folks in Dubai. Currently, they are let past by well compensated DEA and Customs folks, but under the Bush plan, the cartels were meant to flourish even more.

We also need to provide enough real jobs for current Americans, so that we are not tempted to slander the latest folks to cross our borders. If our unemployment figures were accurate, living wage jobs were plentiful and people weren't all feeling the squeeze, this would be a different time for folks willing to do the toughest jobs.

A hard working fellow or lady wants to provide for his or her family and make a better future. That feeling is utterly universal. This is what motivated most of our ancestors as well, so we ought to pay homage to their plight of the past with a bit more acceptance in the present. Virtually all Americans, legal or not, want to be good providers.

Immigration is American, or we would have little baseball, Motherhood, apple pie or Chevrolet to sing about. We have to find a balance, but looking back at policy against almost every new immigrant minority in our country, I am pretty disgusted. Someday, we may yet get it right.

"OK, how about going after individuals that hire illegals. Those doing yard, roof repair, etc."

Great idea. Except that many of the folks who use the "Grand Avenue Bridge Employment Center" drive huge pickups and have a "W" sticker. Many of these folks will work an illegal all day, and then underpay them, knowing full well that they cannot squeal.

"It should be noted that Del Monte Foods and Fresh Del Monte Produce (the raided plant) are not the same company. Del Monte Foods sold their fresh fruit division in 1989. Fresh Del Monte Produce is an independent licensee of the Del Monte trademark."

Alright, I stand corrected, there are more sh*theads operating under the same brand name than I previously noted. I am willing to bet that the happy illegal sweatshop policy is older than the separation, sale or brand franchising.

You cant't hole employeers responsible, until you give them tools to determing someones status.

We should pass a law tieing our immigration laws with those of MExico, and give illegal immigrants no more roghts than Mexico gives to illegal immigrants in thier own country. Heck you cant even own property in Mexico, unless your a Mexican citizen.

Well, that's what I was suggesting the ID ideas for. Make it so people will get it done, tell them why it matters, and don't force them to trade liberties or privacy for it, and it's all good.

Just some work that we need to do.

This is different than going after the people. Just make everybody do it period. After one cycle, it's old hat, we get our processes in place and it's a no-brainer after that.

Then absolutely nail the employers, and have the subsidy discussion.

It's happening now indirectly. Why not just accept that, realize field work is expensive work due to it's nature, and get it done in a way that makes sense. We all need food. That's important enough to deal with this on a rational level.

Once those things are addressed, what's left really?

The king pins are gone, leaving us with little pools of problems. That's a livable proposition to me, given the mess we are in right now, and the idea of just granting amnesty and or allowing a huge flood of workers that will just devalue those of us here.

And that's my big worry.

If we just grant guest worker status of some kind, those guests, being suddenly quasi-legal and above board, are just not gonna want to stay at the bottom of the pool. Besides, if we address the subsidy thing, we will have Americans doing those jobs and guests will be quite a bit more unwelcome.

Remember, it's only worth it for them to do the work, because they do not generally contribute to our tax revenue and leverage our assistance programs. That's an indirect subsidy. Should go to Americans, not anybody else.

>>...those guests, being suddenly quasi-legal and above board, are just not gonna want to stay at the bottom...

The notion that illegals are "merely doing work Americans won't do", has not been accurate for a number of years. The construction workers unions in California have mostly been destroyed and living-wage jobs in that industry are few and far between because of illegals who are willing to work for peanuts. Many large employers are in essence out-sourcing, but doing it illegally within the U.S. borders.

Randy, you are absolutely right about many contractors in Oregon as well.

Lets not forget the harm the illegals are causing others, I have a friend whose life was almost ruined by hte IRS, because someone was using his social security number, and hterefore he had income he didnt report on his taxes.

Yep. I know a few people having to repurpose their skills because of this too.

It's a serious bummer.

Saw a coupla headlines recently. US execs predict 40k jobs, give or take a bunch, outsourced! This, plus 20million guests per year, is gonna exert serious wage pressure!

(asses all of them for trying to get that through)

Frankly, I see the writing on the wall and am moving quickly toward a people to people kind of work that is extremely difficult to outsource, or be filled by a guest / H1B.