Anyone care to handicap this one?

Who are the long shots? Who will break out of the pack? Who will have the best one-liner?

I'm saying here and now to watch Mike Huckabee. From what I've seen so far, he's right on a lot of the issues.

Herb

WOW! This has been posted for 24 minutes, and no one has comented yet on Fox News hosting the debate! I'm impressed.

Oh, sure they'll Trash N' Bash™.

But Fox has gained tremendous credibility in hosting this 2008 Republican Presidential Debate.

Liberal hand-wringers beware.

Herb

I'm busy putting the ham on my fist. Or is it holding the ham by my fist? I get so confused.

Would that be Honey-Baked™?

Herb

Only the best for us liberals!

I guess us vegetarian types are more tofu-fisted.

Oh good lord somebody help me.

I will watch the repeat at 9pm. I would like to hear what Huckabee and Romney have to say. I think we can write McCain out at this point. Guilani has some staying power especially if Bloomberg steps into the race as an independent. But at this point I feel that the GOP ticket will probally go to Romney. Just my opinion as a registered and proud liberal Democrat who SHOCKINGLY only wants what is collectively is best for America.

My vote though at this point is for Obama.

TOFU-FISTED?!?!? That locks up the KSKD works solid. I mean tight, just no where to go...

Good grief, that's a post that should come with a warning not to read while drinking Coke

Go Ron Paul!

Yeah, they are gonna just hammer Ron Paul...

Too bad, he's getting after it!

http://www.crooksandliars.com/2007/05/15/gop-debate-ii-fox-goes-after-ron-paul/

Go Ron Paul, go!

FOX: "Are you running for the nomination of the wrong party?"

No, he's actually a real conservative, fucked by his bootlicking, rubber stamping, spineless and corrupt party majority. Poor bastard.

Ron Paul: "Y-You have to realize, the base of the Republican Party shrunk last year, because of the war issue, so that represents less people."

Fuck yes! And it got said right there on FOX too!

Nicely done Mr. Paul!

And he follows with this:

"...if you look at 65 to 70 percent of the American people, they want us out of there..."

Priceless!

You can enjoy the rest at the link above.

KSKD, Ron Paul is the ONLY viable candidate the GOP has and they just do not get it. I am so glad you enjoy his spirit too. He is a real American original.

Totally!

I've got total respect for the guy. It takes a lot to get up there and speak truth to power.

Excellent!

(and they are gonna fry him for it too!)

If he runs as a Libertarian, he may not win, but it will signal the end of the GOP. I brought his candidacy up months ago, and I warned the Republicans in this forum that they ought to embrace him or face the consequences. He is the last of the "good conservatives" and if they choose to abandon him, they will slowly fade into history like the Whigs and Torries.

Yep. I noted that when you did. His name came up for me a while back too. When the various Open Source Software in Government bills went through the states, Ron Paul was one of the ones asking the corporations some really tough questions.

They were the conservative kind of questions:

"why lie to me"

"how come you are so worried about the business of the people getting done on free software? If you are focused really on a value per dollar proposition, surely your products measure up right?"

etc...

It was good stuff then.

This is far better now.

I thought he did well in the first debate. Media shut him out nearly completely --and we didn't get the debate footage on line like we are getting now either.

You know, he might have just as big of a set as Colbert does. Maybe Colbert should put him on the show...

Since the left likes Ron Paul so much, how about running him with Nader on the democrat ticket?

I didn't think so.

Herb

He is on Colbert's radar, and after tonight's strong answers, I bet he does invite him for some discussion. Stephen will no doubt chastise him for running for the wrong party, but then provide a national forum to discuss a third party for true conservatives. Bingo.

What so many of the currently punch-drunk GOP do not understand is that he is really the lone voice of reason. The skepticism and fiscal accountability he demands is what their party once stood for without reserve.

As the defense industry began to buy the GOP leaders one by one in the 1980s, they pushed to spend like a drunken sailor under Reagan. Later, under Clinton, they used their new found majority to further help big business and erode the rights of citizens.

Since 9/11 was a tragedy on their watch, they spun it, and for a time, profited from it. It looks like those checks are beginning to bounce too. Unlike the self-conscious conservatives of the past, even Nixon, they never looked back to see if the country was still on board. As Paul pointed out, it is not.

Potentially, the Libertarian Party has never looked stronger. What they do with all that potential is a whole other question.

Herb, believe it or not, Ron Paul is on my radar. My vote for President is not simply about right or left, it is about what is best for the United States. He is still among only a small handful of candidates that I am considering from either party.

Honestly, as a conservative, what did you think of what Representative Paul had to say? I think he was spot on when he brought up Reagan and our involvement in the Middle East, how about you?

I wouldn't run anybody with Nader. We don't need Nader.

Ron Paul is just what Littlesongs wrote: One of the last true conservatives. He's either the future of the GOP, getting back to it's roots, or the beginning of something new, or some guy retired who sleeps well knowing he was trying to do the right things.

Besides, we have a lot of great Democrats for the DEMOCRATIC ticket. No need to muddy the waters there.

What we don't have is a lot of great GOP members for the GOP ticket.

That's the problem and invoking both Nader and the Democratic party has nothing at all do do with it.

That guy articulated what the majority of Americans asked him to articulate. He stepped up, pointed out the harm his party is suffering by not responding to those it serves.

That's what elected representatives do Herb.

We need more of them.

Conservative is not a bad thing. Everybody here leans conservative on some issues. That means Ron Paul is not bad at all, just conservative. Again, we could use a whole lot more of that.

"Honestly, as a conservative, what did you think of what Representative Paul had to say? I think he was spot on when he brought up Reagan and our involvement in the Middle East, how about you?"

I like Ron Paul. But not for president. He's a Kucinich living in a fantasy land if he thinks America should hand over our leadership role.

And no WONDER you liberals like the guy. HE BLAMED AMERICA FOR 9/ll. That's why liberals have a 'hate America first' problem and poll after poll shows the American people simply do not trust you on defense. Nearly 3,000 innocent civilians are murdered and WE'RE the bad guys? Don't make me vomit.

You want the UN to lead and decide what's right? Ha. How about China? How about Iran?

See, it all sounds good when some terrorist nutcase doesn't threaten to destroy innocent people or have a bomb. But you guys saw how impotent the world was in getting 17 censures of Saddam.

I want to like the guy and he's fine on some issues, I'm sure. But if Ron Paul is the answer, then the question is definitely not about our credible defense.

Herb

I DVR'd it. Have yet to watch it.

Who won? NO SPOILERS!

Well, C & L is in fine form tonight with the Ron Paul clips:

http://www.crooksandliars.com/Media/Download/17340/1/FOXDebate-Paul-Rudy.wmv

This one is just great!

Ron "I'm one of the last conservatives with a huge pair to go the distance with" Paul vs. Giuliani "I was married to my second cousin and cross dress on occasion to relieve personal frustrations and anxieties" on the Root Causes of Terrorism.

Go vote on the Debates at MSNBC:

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18661344/

Ron Paul made quite an impression. Currently in solid lead for best leader, stand out, etc...

See Littlesongs cleaned up poll results.

Good call Missing! Look at these numbers! Well, I guess we both get to say, "I told you so..." in the nicest way possible. C'mon Republicans, there he is, go get him!

NBC News & National Journal Poll

Who stood out from the pack?
(6,600 responses)

Sam Brownback 1.4%
Jim Gilmore 0.6%
Rudy Giuliani 15%
Mike Huckabee 3%
Duncan Hunter 1.4%
John McCain 4%
Ron Paul 51%
Mitt Romney 18%
Tom Tancredo 2.6%
Tommy Thompson 2.5%

Who showed the most leadership qualities?
(6,536 responses)

Sam Brownback 1.4%
Jim Gilmore 0.8%
Rudy Giuliani 15%
Mike Huckabee 2.4%
Duncan Hunter 1.6%
John McCain 6.2%
Ron Paul 48%
Mitt Romney 20%
Tom Tancredo 2.2%
Tommy Thompson 2.5%

Who was the most convincing candidate?
(6,486 responses)

Sam Brownback 1.6%
Jim Gilmore 0.8%
Rudy Giuliani 14%
Mike Huckabee 3%
Duncan Hunter 1.7%
John McCain 5.2%
Ron Paul 50%
Mitt Romney 20%
Tom Tancredo 2.5%
Tommy Thompson 2.4%

Who had the most rehearsed answers?
(6,324 responses)

Sam Brownback 2.8%
Jim Gilmore 2.2%
Rudy Giuliani 30%
Mike Huckabee 3.3%
Duncan Hunter 1.5%
John McCain 24%
Ron Paul 6.3%
Mitt Romney 23%
Tom Tancredo 2.4%
Tommy Thompson 5.4%

Who avoided the questions?
(6,246 responses)

Sam Brownback 3.7%
Jim Gilmore 3.9%
Rudy Giuliani 43%
Mike Huckabee 2.8%
Duncan Hunter 2.3%
John McCain 16%
Ron Paul 6.4%
Mitt Romney 14%
Tom Tancredo 2.8%
Tommy Thompson 5.2%

Who had the best one-liner?
(6,247 responses)

Sam Brownback 2.7%
Jim Gilmore 1.9%
Rudy Giuliani 16%
Mike Huckabee 15%
Duncan Hunter 2.3%
John McCain 6.9%
Ron Paul 35%
Mitt Romney 11%
Tom Tancredo 6.1%
Tommy Thompson 3.6%

(same as KSKD's original, but a later sample, updated for the last time at 12:45 a.m.)

Ron Paul by a staggering and consistent margin. For a field this large, that is really impressive. Sure, there are built in errors, but not by that margin!

Can we all admit regardless of what your personal party affilation is that the GOP will most likely split into two parties within lets say the next decade?

I'm guessing 18 sects. Perhaps even cabals.

I'll bet the gloves really came off in THAT debate! Sorry I missed it...

Andrew

Stream it all at http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,272672,00.html

I will update the poll as the numbers climb.

I think at least two own sequined gloves - if you know what I mean.

Ron Paul kicked some behind in California as well, and was roundly ignored. The Representative from Texas has just been seen as a fluke up to this point, but he is scoring consistent victories.

These numbers are also quite interesting. Even this early, the polls from both debates show marked similarities.

California Debate MSNBC Poll

Who stood out from the pack?
(72,095 responses)

Sam Brownback 2.1%
Jim Gilmore 1.1%
Rudy Giuliani 14%
Mike Huckabee 3.2%
Duncan Hunter 1.6%
John McCain 6.7%
Ron Paul 47%
Mitt Romney 19%
Tom Tancredo 2.5%
Tommy Thompson 2.9%

Who showed the most leadership qualities?
(71,205 responses)

Sam Brownback 2.1%
Jim Gilmore 1.6%
Rudy Giuliani 15%
Mike Huckabee 3.2%
Duncan Hunter 1.9%
John McCain 10%
Ron Paul 42%
Mitt Romney 18%
Tom Tancredo 2.4%
Tommy Thompson 3.1%

Who was the most convincing candidate?
(70,978 responses)

Sam Brownback 2.5%
Jim Gilmore 1.5%
Rudy Giuliani 13%
Mike Huckabee 3.8%
Duncan Hunter 1.9%
John McCain 8.4%
Ron Paul 45%
Mitt Romney 18%
Tom Tancredo 2.7%
Tommy Thompson 3.2%

Who had the most rehearsed answers?
(69,420 responses)

Sam Brownback 3.9%
Jim Gilmore 1.5%
Rudy Giuliani 24%
Mike Huckabee 2.3%
Duncan Hunter 1.6%
John McCain 31%
Ron Paul 7.8%
Mitt Romney 22%
Tom Tancredo 2.1%
Tommy Thompson 3.7%

Who avoided the questions?
(67,708 responses)

Sam Brownback 5.4%
Jim Gilmore 2.9%
Rudy Giuliani 39%
Mike Huckabee 3.1%
Duncan Hunter 2.8%
John McCain 18%
Ron Paul 6.9%
Mitt Romney 13%
Tom Tancredo 3.7%
Tommy Thompson 5.3%

Who had the best one-liner?
(67,471 responses)

Sam Brownback 3%
Jim Gilmore 1.6%
Rudy Giuliani 12%
Mike Huckabee 6.5%
Duncan Hunter 2.2%
John McCain 13%
Ron Paul 39%
Mitt Romney 14%
Tom Tancredo 4%
Tommy Thompson 5%

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18661804/


Finally, here is the transcript of the California GOP debate from MSNBC: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/18478985/

As well as the full text of the South Carolina Republican debate from the New York Times:
http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/15/us/politics/16repubs-text.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

Who would have thought FOX-TV would hand their base a good whipping. I'm sorry I missed it too.

Ron Paul has quite a little section on You Tube, and one can dive right in with the California debate: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=peBGJwE9NX

Is it just me or does he remind some of you of the great comic actor, John Mahoney?

Rumor has it, ABC did not offer Paul as an option on this survey, but an uproar changed their minds. This poll debuted right after the debate at the Reagan Library: http://abcnews.go.com/politics/beseenbeheard/popup?id=3135373&POLL288=4000000

ABC News Poll

"Republican presidential candidates held their first debate recently. Who do you think came out on top at the Republican debate?

Ron Paul 18,505

It doesn't matter who won. I wouldn't put America in another Republican's hands. 1,659

None of them. I'm interested in the possibility of new candidates like Fred Thompson. 297

Mitt Romney 260

Rudy Guiliani 251

John McCain 136

Tom Tancredo 58

Tommy Thompson 30

Mike Huckabee 26

Sam Brownback 22

Duncan Hunter 18

James Gilmore 11

Total Vote: 21,273"

I could not find a current ABC on-line poll for the South Carolina debate.

FOX News also had a poll:

"FOX News asked you to tell us who you thought won Tuesday night's First-in-the-South Republican Presidential Candidates Primary Debate. With more than 40,000 votes submitted via text message, 29 percent said former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney made the best showing of all 10 GOP presidential hopefuls who made their cases to the American people at the University of South Carolina's Koger Center for the Arts in Columbia, S.C. Texas Rep. Ron Paul, came in second with 25 percent. Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani, came in third place with 19 percent. Arizona Sen. John McCain, who is the frontrunner in South Carolina polls, came in sixth with 5 percent.

You Decide GOP Primary Poll Results

— 29% Former Massachusetts Gov. Mitt Romney

— 25% Rep. Ron Paul, R-Texas

— 19% Former New York City Mayor Rudy Giuliani

— 8% Former Arkansas Gov. Mike Huckabee

— 5% Rep. Duncan Hunter, R-Calif. Hunter

— 4% Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz.

— 3% Rep. Tom Tancredo, R-Colo.

— 1% Sen. Sam Brownback, R-Kan.

— 0% Former Virginia Gov. Jim Gilmore

— 0% Former Wisconsin Gov. Tommy Thompson

The poll was conducted between 9 p.m. EDT, Tuesday, May 15, 2007, and 12:30 a.m. EDT, Wednesday, May 16, 2007. The poll reflects the opinions of those who choose to participate and may not reflect a scientific sampling of the population."
2933,272493,00.html,http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,272493,00.html

Yeah Skep, it was excellent! I wish they had Hannity clips online. His head exploded having Ron Paul on, after the debates. Paul clearly was not hannitized!

There is gonna be a schizm in the GOP. Maybe we will actually end up with three parties! Could be that we will just end up with one marginalized GOP and the other party that forms from the remains too.

Either way, it's better than the mess we have to deal with now.

"Maybe we will actually end up with three parties!"

Like I said. Nader and Ron Paul.

Herb

We don't need Nader.

Oh yes you do. He's going to be a big part of the 2008 race.

He's going to help hand it to conservatives.

Herb

Not this time.

It may happen that way, but it won't be through Nader. A quick reminder of what that cost us, in the form of two horrible terms, a lot of national harm, devaluing of our principles, etc... will nix that damn quick.

I might take that to heart if your track record for predictions of this kind was not just completely horrible.

Herb: '...left keeps losing elections...'

American people: [elect a lot of Democrats]

PDXRadio: "Hey Herb, where are you for that nice helping of crow?"

Herb: "It was a conservative victory!"

PDXRadio: "Bull"

RIP: "Your team took it in the sack!"

Yeah, you've got it spot on buddy.

Just like we're told "congress always has lower ratings than the president," I'll simply respond by saying that off-year elections always go to the out-of-power party.

This isn't Burger King™, nor can you have it both ways.

Herb

Sure I can!

It would be easier to accept a positive spin on these numbers if it meant anything more than your typical fifth grade:

"But mommy, he sucks too!"

Or the left's infantile denial.

Herb

Getting back to Ron Paul:

http://www.worldnetdaily.com/polls/index.asp?VIEW_RESULTS=Y

World Net Daily!

In fact, I can't find anywhere this guy didn't score well. Seems more Americans than some would want to believe are anti-lie and anti-war.

The biggest applause was for former New York Mayor Rudy Giuliani after he objected to Rep. Ron Paul's theory on why the U.S. was attacked on Sept. 11, 2001.

http://www.nypost.com/seven/05162007/news/nationalnews/rudy_in_rage_at_9_11_diss_nationalnews_carl_campanile.htm

"They attack us because we've been over there. We've been bombing Iraq for 10 years. ... We've been in the Middle East," Paul, an opponent of the Iraq war, explained. "Right now, we're building an embassy in Iraq that is bigger than the Vatican. We're building 14 permanent bases. What would we say here if China was doing this in our country or in the Gulf of Mexico? We would be objecting. They are delighted that we're over there because Osama bin Laden has said, 'I'm glad you're over on our sand because we can target you so much easier.' They have already now since that time they've killed 3,400 of our men and I don't think it was necessary," he continued.

Giuliani interrupted: "That's really an extraordinary statement, as someone who lived through the attack of Sept. 11, that we invited the attack because we were attacking Iraq. I don't think I have ever heard that before and I have heard some pretty absurd explanations for Sept. 11. I would ask the congressman withdraw that comment and tell us that he didn't really mean that."

Herb

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tlqiYeET0TY

It may take a "voice in the wilderness" like Ron Paul's that will truly catch the ear of the voting public and pause them to actually think about who they really want in the White House.

I like that Ron Paul at least for now is causing the GOP to think.

How refreshing. And he will be taking some hard blows for it. Let's see how he handles it.

That's perfect Chickenjuggler.

"I don't think I've heard that before..."

Hahahahahaha!!

It's been said ever since we abandoned our efforts to build bases in Saudi Arabia! It's being said right now! Our efforts in Iraq have enabled a lot of terror and have pissed a whole lot of people off. That anger and hate is gonna be with us for quite some time Herb.

Note he didn't withdraw either, but pressed on hard! Of course he means it! Our actions do have consequenses you know. Piss enough people off and bad things happen... A well rounded and robust foreign policy includes more than just always being on the offensive.

Again, everybody that matters, knows that, which is why the GOP is having such a hard time right now. They are trying to sell lies and manupulations and they are doing it through fear. That's damn tough to get done year after year.

Besides, we all know this whole mess is about oil anyway. Anwar may well have peaked! If that's the case, our aggression and strong efforts to install a government that will lock the oil in for us is totally on the table as far as reasons why we are doing what we are doing.

You know, we had near complete global support after 9/11. Instead of actually addressing terror, uniting most of globe in our efforts, we leveraged that into a big ass oil play.

Now it's a possibility we might not actually get the oil, and we've upped the ante on terror quite a bit. While we were busy with that, we also lowered the bar where international rules of engagement were concerned, and devalued our own principles as well.

Yeah, that's that freedom we are supposed to be all about Herb.

Mr. "I was married to my second cousin and cross dress to release tension" Giuliani, didn't actually address the matter. There was no debate on the points brought to the table.

All we saw was shock and awe over the reality of them, then a firm subject change, onto more softball questions that avoid dealing with tough issues.

And this is exactly why Ron Paul has the nice solid response he does. Not everybody is terminally stupid it seems!

Rudy got a big cheer for his "look at me, I was a victim" response. Big deal. He also toured the country making money by doing "motivation speaking" rather than preparing major cities for an attack. If he had anything to offer, the mayors of many cities would have called long ago. Il Duce is just a bag of wind.

Paul could have responded with, "You had years between attacks and did nothing to make New York prepared" or a simple, "Nice hat." He did not. You will find, like him or not, Ron Paul is as solid a candidate as you will ever find, and not one for the low road. Look at his voting record. He is a true libertarian and that scares the hell out of the corporate GOP.

I sent this pitch to OpEd news this morning. Currently it's number three for news.google.com searches for Ron Paul! I've gotten a coupla interesting and supportive e-mails already.

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=us&q=ron+paul&btnG=Search+News

Sweet, and Kudos to Littlesongs for suggesting the national platform for another or correct party tie-in.

I think it's worth talking this guy up. This is very likely his last debate, unless... he ends up getting noticed by more people. The end result might not be bad for all of us.

Good people need their shot, conservative, libby or otherwise.

Clearly, the conservative power base does not like this fellow from Texas. Here is Ron Paul with Sean Hannity after the debate:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2fxzliDhSk

The latest numbers:

NBC News & National Journal Poll

Who stood out from the pack?
(22,353 responses)

Sam Brownback 1.3%
Jim Gilmore 0.7%
Rudy Giuliani 13%
Mike Huckabee 3%
Duncan Hunter 1.2%
John McCain 3.7%
Ron Paul 60%
Mitt Romney 13%
Tom Tancredo 2.2%
Tommy Thompson 1.8%

Who showed the most leadership qualities?
(22,124 responses)

Sam Brownback 1.2%
Jim Gilmore 0.8%
Rudy Giuliani 14%
Mike Huckabee 2.5%
Duncan Hunter 1.6%
John McCain 5.7%
Ron Paul 57%
Mitt Romney 14%
Tom Tancredo 1.9%
Tommy Thompson 1.9%

Who was the most convincing candidate?
(21,992 responses)

Sam Brownback 1.3%
Jim Gilmore 0.8%
Rudy Giuliani 12%
Mike Huckabee 3.2%
Duncan Hunter 1.4%
John McCain 4.8%
Ron Paul 58%
Mitt Romney 13%
Tom Tancredo 2.1%
Tommy Thompson 2%

Who had the most rehearsed answers?
(21,445 responses)

Sam Brownback 2.4%
Jim Gilmore 1.8%
Rudy Giuliani 34%
Mike Huckabee 2.6%
Duncan Hunter 1.2%
John McCain 22%
Ron Paul 7.6%
Mitt Romney 22%
Tom Tancredo 2%
Tommy Thompson 4.1%

Who avoided the questions?
(21,160 responses)

Sam Brownback 3.3%
Jim Gilmore 3.1%
Rudy Giuliani 46%
Mike Huckabee 2.4%
Duncan Hunter 1.7%
John McCain 16%
Ron Paul 6.8%
Mitt Romney 13%
Tom Tancredo 2.3%
Tommy Thompson 4.5%

Who had the best one-liner?
(21,102 responses)

Sam Brownback 2.4%
Jim Gilmore 1.9%
Rudy Giuliani 15%
Mike Huckabee 14%
Duncan Hunter 1.8%
John McCain 7.3%
Ron Paul 42%
Mitt Romney 7.2%
Tom Tancredo 5.7%
Tommy Thompson 3.2%

After the fun of last night, he went right back to work. He is still one of the busiest and most dedicated members of the House -- of either party.

http://www.house.gov/paul/

The Republican Party will probably continue to dismiss him as fringe, and even attempt to keep him from future debates. It will be very interesting to see how this all plays out.