I picked Edwards, of course.

Check the numbers on Clinton!

http://www.620kpoj.com/pages/thom_hartmann.html

Who would you vote for out of the seven declared Democratic Presidential candidates?
Biden

0.44 %
Clinton

9.24 %
Dodd

0.22 %
Edwards

26.84 %
Gravel

1.38 %
Kucinich

13.75 %
Obama

20.36 %
Richardson

27.78 %

Gravel?!! That is one of the better options from either party!

I'm saying this is like walking into a great restaurant -- there are so many fine pickings -- something suitable for every taste yet acceptable for everybody.

So like the demos, not one of their contenders ever served active military, Sen Dodd did serve in the National Guard, hope he didnt miss any drills.

And they've got Hillary who ran around with the crowd of activists that spit on returning veterans.

And Gavel released classified info.

You are the weakest decider, Nwokie. Just stop.

Run Gravel, run!

Herb

Nwokie writes:
And they've got Hillary who ran around with the crowd of activists that spit on returning veterans.

Strangely, there hasn't been a documented case of anyone spitting on Vietnam veterans, despite this nasty right-wing fantasy rhetoric that gets you so excited. Like saying George W. Bush killed babies when he was in high school. How could you support someone like that, Nwokie?

Andrew

Demos tring to rewrie histoy.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,950522,00.html?promoid=googlep

And I saw a case of protestors outside the fence at travis spitting on soldiers and airmen returning home.

One thing's for sure.

Gravel has really taken the gloves off, this time...whoever he is.

Herb

As I said, there hasn't been a documented case of anyone spitting on Vietnam veterans. Someone saying "Someone spit on me" isn't a documented case.

Andrew

So now the libs are calling vietnam vets liars.

Next they will be saying the demonstrators didnt hold up signs calling them baby killers and other obnoxious names.

Or Hanoi Jane didnt really sit on a North Vietnamese anti aircraft gun, and say American Pilots shot down got what they deserved.

Nwokie: After basic training, I was walking through the Columbia, S.C., airport in uniform and was called a baby killer and spit on, long before I even made it to Vietnam. I'm still a liberal, but I can attest to that treatment.

OK, Andrew. You've now got bona fide testimony by a United States veteran during the Vietnam era who was spat upon. Is there a change to your denial? And thanks, RadioBlogMan for your service to our country. You're a better American than I am.

Herbert M.

Thanks for the compliment Herb, but I an no better than any other American. I want to believe we are all equal of each other (unless of course we commit a crime) no matter what our politics are. We are, of course, Americans first, and everything else second and I welcome anyone, liberal or conservative, who does not believe that to move to another country.

Bill Richardson getting some love ... VERY encouraging to me. Kind of surprising seeing how low-key he is ... but again, I doubt it's some substantiated poll.

Oh well, we'll see what happens. This time four years ago everyone was on the Howard Dean bandwagon and the wheels came off of that thing in a hurry.

Nwokie writes:
So now the libs are calling vietnam vets liars.

No, I'm not a member of the Swift Boat Veterans for "Truth," I didn't accuse anyone of lying. It was an unsubstantiated letter to the editor. It could have been written by anyone, even Dick Cheney during one of his Vietnam deferments. (For which I'm sure you have some rationale for saying that makes him a hero and John Kerry a coward.)

All I'm asking for is a DOCUMENTED case of Vietnam vets being spit upon. Because a few years after all these supposed stories about vets being spit upon, researchers were unable to substantiate even ONE case where it really happened. That means it's not someone claiming 10 years after the fact that someone spit on him.

Herb writes:
OK, Andrew. You've now got bona fide testimony by a United States veteran during the Vietnam era who was spat upon. Is there a change to your denial?

Where's the substantiation? All that I ask - because researchers who looked a lot harder than I did couldn't find it.

Andrew

I was never spat on, but I say it happen, the coward libs, wouldnt come through gate, they had to spit through the fence.

Who says the spitters, if we've got solid evidence of them spitting, are all liberals?

And, who is to say that context applies today?

We've linked spitting to liberals here, with the implication that liberals in general do not support the troops.

That's a burden that has totally not yet been met.

I don't know anybody that does not support the troops. Plenty of people think we are doing the wrong things, treating them like crap, and are not all that pleased over some of their actions.

Most of those things are related to their leadership, so getting into that, no matter where you stand right or wrong, is actually supporting the troops. If you care about the matter, advocacy is support, even if misguided at times.

On the matter of their behavior, that's isolated and it's under extreme pressure, ambigious leadership (contractors -vs- military orders), and just not demonstrated to be representative of our military as a whole. Discussion on those matters is not really anti-troops and unsupportive either. The feedback can only improve our military performance. Who doesn't want that, including the troops themselves?

In the end, let's say the spitting ends up being substantiated. All we've got is then some incident where somebody spit on a war vet. It sucks, but it's not going to add significantly to the discussion as a whole, unless one is just looking to smear what is otherwise a pretty solid field!

In traditionally conservative Florida, this story makes one seriously doubt partisan hatred of our troops.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,271233,00.html

The fact that a very high percentage of our homeless served this country with valor is lost on most folks on both sides of the aisle.

"Where's the substantiation?"

Testimony by a witness is admissable in court.

From now on, I'll think twice before giving you any benefit of the doubt.

Herb

Herb, you think a random letter to the editor of Time Magazine is "admissable in court" as testimony?

Andrew

That's crap.

Where is the document of testimony? Might not be on line, so where is the news story referencing it?

If we get past that, one less than perfect discussion is not anywhere near what would be required to justify thinking twice. It's not as if this happens all the time, particularly with Andrew.

Finally, the implication that it's all of us lumped in behind Andrew's post is bunk as well.

Good grief Herb, you really can pack 'em in when you want to.

You guys wanna question a veteran who served with honour, that's right in keeping with your party's loathing of the military, whilst stripping it of the funding to do the job.

If it wasn't for veterans like RadioBlogMan and Nwokie, your freedom to speak would be non-existent.

Herb

Herb's a troll. I'll say it in a letter to the editor and it will be conclusive evidence for a jury to convict him of perjury.

Bonus evidence: I'm the #2 poster in pdxradio.com, so quanitity weighs in quite a bit in all things jury decisions.

Whoa there Herb.

Do not stray that far out in the pasture without really tall boots.

Which party fully supported our troops and allowed them to win the last big war we won? The Democrats.

Which party folded the tent, threw in the towel and called it a day in the last two wars we lost? The Republicans.

Still, not for one tiny moment would I question the patriotism of Americans of any affiliation. I hasten to remind you, most of our soldiers come from every background except one: rich whites.

Which party embraces white and rich the most?

If you answered both, that was mighty smart, and a pretty good start toward the truth.

Nobody loathes the military here.

Nobody is cutting off funding either. Oh, unless you consider the decision to engage Iraq on the cheap... Seems to me, the GOP is on the hook for that. The current discussion surrounds how much we want to continue funding very poor leadership. At no time will the troops be de-funded. Their commander will though! That's how accountability with the purse is done.

Let's say we limit funding to a coupla months.

If nothing unusual happens, this essentially means we use those dollars on the way out.

Should something happen, that purse is right there ready to fund, if necessary, and that's the key. If necessary means our (P)resident commander in chief has a burden to meet before his congress, who oversees his efforts, opens up the purse.

Has nothing to do with denying dollars to troops. The only ones on record having done that are the GOP.

(*Ouch!*)



I questioned the whole implication that somehow this discussion devalued anyone here. There is a difference you know Herb.

Mr. Merk (82nd Airborne vet) and I watched (most of) a Vietnam War documentary the other night called "Sir! No Sir" on the Sundance Channel, I wish it was on again soon because we missed the beginning, and it was fascinating:

http://www.sirnosir.com/

"In the 1960’s an anti-war movement emerged that altered the course of history. This movement didn’t take place on college campuses, but in barracks and on aircraft carriers. It flourished in army stockades, navy brigs and in the dingy towns that surround military bases. It penetrated elite military colleges like West Point. And it spread throughout the battlefields of Vietnam. It was a movement no one expected, least of all those in it. Hundreds went to prison and thousands into exile. And by 1971 it had, in the words of one colonel, infested the entire armed services. Yet today few people know about the GI movement against the war in Vietnam.

The Vietnam War has been the subject of hundreds of films, both fiction and non-fiction, but this story–the story of the rebellion of thousands of American soldiers against the war–has never been told in film.This is certainly not for lack of evidence. By the Pentagon’s own figures, 503,926 “incidents of desertion” occurred between 1966 and 1971; officers were being “fragged”(killed with fragmentation grenades by their own troops) at an alarming rate; and by 1971 entire units were refusing to go into battle in unprecedented numbers. In the course of a few short years, over 100 underground newspapers were published by soldiers around the world; local and national antiwar GI organizations were joined by thousands; thousands more demonstrated against the war at every major base in the world in 1970 and 1971, including in Vietnam itself; stockades and federal prisons were filling up with soldiers jailed for their opposition to the war and the military.

Yet few today know of these history-changing events.

Sir! No Sir! will change all that. The film does four things: 1) Brings to life the history of the GI movement through the stories of those who were part of it; 2) Reveals the explosion of defiance that the movement gave birth to with never-before-seen archival material; 3) Explores the profound impact that movement had on the military and the war itself; and 4) The feature, 90 minute version, also tells the story of how and why the GI Movement has been erased from the public memory.

The "spitting" issue is also covered by the author of the book "The Spitting Image":

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0814751474/qid=1119514586/sr=2-2/ref=pd_b bs_b_2_2/102-3998257-4375355

"Ironically, the author notes that the relatively few cases in which there is evidence of it having taken place...mostly came from prior war veterans, dismayed that returning veterans "couldn't do what we did". In some cases, the reporting of drug use by some overseas veterans, sadly, helped feed some of this animosity.

The author, a Vietnam Vet himself, emphasizes that very, very few cases of this exist to begin with. All the more reason to treat this as the Urban Legend that it is."

"To prove his point, Lembcke examined the historical record from 1965-1973 and found not a single documented instance of an anti-war protester spitting on a soldier. No arrests, no news reports, no photographs, no reference in any FBI file (protests groups were often infiltrated). Nothing. So if it was happening, virtually no one was reporting it or talking about it.

Moreover, the earliest examples of "spitting" being referenced during the war pertain to pro-war folks threatening to spit on anti-war protesters. The point that Lembcke is trying to make here is that it would not be difficult to imagine people interpreting the phrase "Vietnam Vets spat on at Anti-War Rally" to mean that anti-war protestors were doing the spitting when in actuality it was pro-war protesters spitting on anti-war vets.

According Lembcke, first hand accounts of being spat on began to emerge about 15 years after the war and share many of the characteristics of "urban myths"--peculiar similarities that don't add up--why always an airport? why is the spitter typically a female? Why did airport security allow protesters to "lineup" at a gate to spit? Why does the soldier always slink away rather than fight?"

I'm sorry it happened to you, RBM.
(OK, now back to flame throwing by HerrB, DJ, and Okie.)

Merk- Adding to your post I received this as part of an email from a long time friend of mine. He writes:

"I was a conscientious objector during Vietnam, my Dad was a c.o. during WW2, my grandfather a c.o. during WW1. I didn't know that family history until I "declared" as a c.o. Dad didn't want to tell me, so that I wouldn't feel any pressure.

My brother was in Vietnam at DaNang Air Base. He arrived the day the TET Offensive began! When he came home, he said that whole war wasn't worth one life being lost on either side. 50,000 U.S. lives lost in Vietnam (and God knows how many Vietnamese) and OVER 50,000 U.S. soldiers committed suicide AFTER they returned home -- a statistic well-hidden by our government."

I agree with KSKD, there are no military loathers here. People who served and the kids over in Iraq now got my complete respect. However, its all completely wasted as they could be deployed elsewhere on the planet doing a world of good and providing the United States with respect that would be the envy of the world.

Given how they are being treated (and that's like complete shit), they have my top respect.

Herb writes:
If it wasn't for veterans like RadioBlogMan and Nwokie, your freedom to speak would be non-existent.

and John Kerry. But not Dick "Five Deferments" Cheney or George W. Bush. Remember, you voted for George and Dick wholeheartedly and against a geuine American hero and decorated veteran, Herb. So please, spare me your hypocrisy about how much you love veterans so much better than everyone else. Actions speak louder than words. You voted for two draft dodgers, who were no better than Bill Clinton when it comes to military service.

Andrew

Nope , not John Kerry, he lost the respect of his fellow servicemen when he killed a wounded, unarmed enemy soldier, without giving him a chance to surrender, then tried to cover himself by telling congress, we all did it.

And most servicemen will tell you, flying jet fighters even in peacetime, is an honorable way to serve.

Nwokie writes:
Nope , not John Kerry, he lost the respect of his fellow servicemen when he killed a wounded, unarmed enemy soldier, without giving him a chance to surrender, then tried to cover himself by telling congress, we all did it.

Bullshit.

Andrew

Double bullshit on an Navy issue shingle. I will not sit by and listen to slander about anyone who served in Vietnam, period. I do not give a damn if you were there or not. The war split the country for far too long to revert to such divisiveness in the present.

The only thing that the peace movement has ever wanted was to see their friends alive and home. If it surprises you that pacifists have many friends in uniform, and often once wore a uniform, perhaps it is time to wake up to reality. A true warrior craves peace because it is his objective. War is not glorious. The glory is in a lasting peace that follows.

Just for fun, see how many flag wavers have actually gone on USO tours in the last decade. Go ahead, look it up. Not many at all, and even fewer return visits. However, you will find that our troops have been entertained consistently by self-confessed "Liberals" and folks against this conflict, year after grinding year.

Why? Because -- like damn near every American -- they love our troops and want to do something to help. The USO takes balls, commitment and there is no money in it. Perhaps, that is why the list reads the way that it does. Their motto is "Until Every One Comes Home," and you have to want our troops home, safe and sound, to support the USO.

http://www.uso.org/

Oh, thats why the vietnam protestors lined the gates outside travis and norton, holding up signs calling the returning vets baby killers and other vile things, and at many of the protsts they hung gi's in effigy?
because they cared about the troops.

Thats why when Jane Fonda was asked about the mistreatment of American Pows, she replied they were getting what they deserved?

http://pajamasmedia.com/2007/03/from_the_we_no_longer_question.php

this occured in Portland

Jane Fonda speaks for Jane Fonda. At this point, she is divorced, drunk and miserable, so be happy. One person speaks for one person, period.

"The two campers, Henry Thompson and a woman who was his companion, said they sat around a campfire with the Marines before going back to their tent for the night. Mr. Thompson said Sergeant Jackson later awakened him, pointing a flashlight in his eyes. Mr. Thompson said he was beaten and taped to a tree, and his companion was dragged into the bushes and raped."

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=9A0CEFDC1131F93BA15755C0A961958260&n=Top%2fReference%2fTimes%20Topics%2fOrganizations%2fM%2fMarine%20Corps

Is this story about all Marines? Of course not. It happened here too.

Our nation is unified behind the troops -- we are only divided by the war.

Nwokie, if think that the nut who crapped on a flag is typical of all Peace Protestors, you must think Adolf Hitler is typical of all Conservatives? Just because you can find an extreme case doesn't mean that represents anything like the typical case - unless you think the typical Conservative wishes to exterminate the Jews in concentration camps?

Andrew

The Portland protest had lots of other protestors standing around, and they had the bullhorns, they could have condemed the actions then, they didnt, and most of the protestors were cheering or applauding them.

Hitler had a lot of Nazis in his party cheering on the murder of the Jews. I guess that means they are typical of all conservatives eh?

Andrew

So?

Nwokie likes to cherry pick a few extremist idiot protestors whom he thinks are "liberals" and say all liberals act like that. I'm cherry picking the same way. Nazis were "conservative" too - so we can assume in Nwokie's world they are typical of all conservatives.

Andrew

Fuck it. Why not just cherry pick a bit more and declare everybody bad?

And there you have the roots of conservatism. The ASSumption that people are bad and need regulation. No wonder we can't keep 'em out of our personal lives...

See, Nwokie, how quickly that kind of reasoning goes south?

"The Portland protest had lots of other protestors standing around, and they had the bullhorns, they could have condemed the actions then, they didnt..."

Were you actually over here in Oregon at the peace march, Okie?

Why were you there?
What were YOU doing?
What did you say, or do, to the tiny number of "protestors"?
Anything? Nothing?

Also Okie, I've been waiting 4 long days for you to substantiate and/or discuss your statement:

"Lets not forget Mr Kennedy donating blood to the Viet cong during the Vietnam war."

I'm really starting to doubt that ever happened.

Anyone? Buehller? Anyone?

Nwokie said>>>>I was never spat on, but I say it happen, the coward libs, wouldnt come through gate, they had to spit through the fence.

What about the EXTREME RIGHT neo-CON suckbags that did the same thing standing right with the Libs????

"All I'm asking for is a DOCUMENTED case of Vietnam vets being spit upon. Because a few years after all these supposed stories about vets being spit upon, researchers were unable to substantiate even ONE case where it really happened. That means it's not someone claiming 10 years after the fact that someone spit on him."


Andrew, I guess I could have stopped in the airport and called for the police to arrest the jerk who spit on me, but even then as now, I saw that as misguided free speech and I figured the guy would either being joining me soon (as we had a draft) or he would head to Canada.

Call me a liar if you want, but it did happen and I had others in my later units tell me it happened to them also.

I havent found it on the web yet, but it happened, it was in the news at the time, and I cant help it if your a young whipper-snapper.

As to the spitting, it definatly happened, probably not at the level some imagine. But it was an indication of the general contempt th eprotesters had for the military personnel.
At nearly all of the protests soldiers were hung in effigy, and there were banners denouncing the soldiers.

Nwokie writes:
But it was an indication of the general contempt th eprotesters had for the military personnel.

Or, it could have been some asshole extremists who represented a tiny portion of peace protestors, just as those assholes who support killing abortion doctors represent a tiny minority of the pro-life movement. No doubt, though, you will continue to believe that most liberals and peace protestors hate the military and our soldiers, despite evidence to the contrary.

Andrew

Andrew, I never thought of those spitters as liberals or conservatives. They were just lazy bums on a bandwagon; more like today's so-called anarchists. They have no original thoughts, but follow a pack. The real opposition to the Viet Nam war came from the middle class tired of losing their sons, just as opposition from this war comes from the majority party of the U.S. -- the silent majority middle class.

Radioblogman writes:
Andrew, I never thought of those spitters as liberals or conservatives.

No, you don't, but Nwokie and others apparently think of them as mainstream liberals. The truth is, most peace protestors wouldn't spit on anybody. That's what PEACE is all about to them. Non-violence.

Andrew

"Ironically, the author notes that the relatively few cases in which there is evidence of it having taken place...mostly came from prior war veterans, dismayed that returning veterans "couldn't do what we did".

(See above)

Okie, are you going to answer my three questions?

Where is ANY kind of proof of "Lets not forget Mr Kennedy donating blood to the Viet cong during the Vietnam war." And BTW, which Kennedy? (OK, that makes 4 questions)

Were you actually at the recent PDX peace march, and why were you there?

Because until you answer, I think you're lying.

Ted Kennedy.

I was on my way home, from work, and the protesters were blocking max, so I had to walk through their demonstration.

Fair enough on the Peace March, although I find it kind of ironic that you, Mr. I-hate-everything-Oregon, work over here on a Sunday.
I'm sure you'd never go shopping or buy anything tax-free over here, would you?

So...where is that proof on Ted Kennedy?

probably in okie's submerged car at lake merwin



(forgot to set "park" at the boat launch)

I do contract work all over southern Washington and Northern Oregon, I have nothiong against taking your money. And when someone somputerdies on a weekend, they pay prime rates to get it fixed befoe the start of business the next day.

"somputerdies"

HUH?

Ah, the malaprop world of Okese.

"somputerdies" -- minor island chain near the Antilles. The natives make percussion instruments from discarded hard drives.

"nothiong" -- the noise a person makes when you shove them off a balcony onto a trampoline.

"eprotesters" -- people who only exist in computer-based models based on stereotypes and conjecture.

Thank God I wasn't leaning too far back in my chair or I would have hit floor from laughing too loud.

I bow to you LS.

Littlesongs, those are funny! We should start a thread with "alternative" words.

Either the NY Times or the Washington Post runs a contest every year for the twisted words.

They also run a contest for alternate meanings to existing words.

The one I remember best is;
UCLA - This is what happens when the smog clears over Los Angeles!

Thanks guys, but really, they write themselves. :0)

Seems only the libs jump on typos, and other types of mistakes.

I'm a busy person, and sometime dont have time to proof read, but I usually make my point.

Geez Nwokie we have all been hit by the grammer and spelling police. Lighten up.

Hell, I get hit all the time!!!!!
Mrs. Merkin gives me an ear full all the time..........