If the conservative wins as expected, this will make ending my boycott of Chirac's France extra sweet:

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20670001&refer=worldwide&sid=a6WMDFxLLtTQ

Notice how the liberal candidate there is using scare tactics:

"...After the publication of the polls today, Royal turned up her rhetoric, saying on RTL radio that his candidacy is ``dangerous'' and that this election could ``trigger violence and brutality across the country."

Herb

Herb writes:
Notice how the liberal candidate there is using scare tactics:

You mean, like when Dick Cheney predicted during the 2004 presidental campaign that the US would be "hit again" if Americans voted for John Kerry? Are you criticizing Cheney's tactics or praising the liberal for borrowing them?

Andrew

Or the latest ravings from Rudolph the Red Nosed thug?

Notice how the troll continues to provide conculsive evidence that he is indeed a troll?

Thanks for bring up YOUR sides scare tactics!!!!

TERROR ALERT on FAUXNews........................................................................ ....................... ORANGE.............HAVE A NICE WEEKEND............DON'T BE WORRIED............

Now back to more FAUX on FAUXNews.....

So, Trixter-We simply stick our heads in the sand and wait for another 9/11?

Herb

No, we weed out actual terrorists and stop invading countries having no ties to 9/11. In this case it was actually better to stick our head in the sand and wait for another 9/11. We'd have $500 Billion for tax cuts and 3500 more American soldiers to look for terrorists with.

stupid, stupid president.

Damn, don't you people ever get tired of this day after day?

We've a daily reminder of 3 or 4 newly [body] bagged troops that got killed because Bush lied about WMDs.

Nope, not tired. Hopefully this will gnaw on W and result in an early LBJ-like death after he leaves office.

Fighting ignorance is taking longer than we thought Mc.

(hat tip to Cecil Adams)

Seriously, it's pretty ugly. Ugly enough to be a pretty strong incentive to make sure nobody forgets who and why. It's working too. The who is W and the rubber stamp Republicans still supporting him, despite record breaking low approval ratings. You know, the kind that last, not just dips, but fricking canyons, with nice flat valleys. That kind of low.

Watch the GOP debates? I don't think I've heard Ronald Reagan more times per hour in a long time! Was on the backdrop too.

Kind of like, "Remember before we backed this moron? --yeah, that's what we are all about going forward!" I might believe that if we saw just a bit more acceptance of just how poor of a (P)resident this guy really is.

Sorry man, he really sucks. There is however, plenty of time for those good, upstanding members of the GOP, to step up and do the right thing! That's only a possibility if the pressure remains high --as high as is possible.

I'm only here to help!

Skep, maybe... Depends on if there is some perception of a legacy or not. If there is, he will just dwell on it and call it good. If there isn't, the door is open!

This place has not had a serious discussion about politics in years.

This whole website has turned into topic after topic of either luring Herb into a fight or Herb luring you all into one.

Just my opinion though. Rock on

Mc74, you forgot Bush Bashing.

There could be a thread on the topic of "Why I like or Don't Like Vanilla Ice Cream" and within a dozen posts it would be Bush's fault that the vanilla bean costs as much as it does and another 6 posts we'd have the vanilla bean blowing up and killing our troops. (Which would be Bush's fault too)

Face it. Bush could save the world from something terrible and the threads here would still find fault with him.

Personally, I wouldn't mess with Bush. If you do, he'll call in a hurricane to hit your town like he did in New Orleans.

You do know that Hurricane Katrina was Bush's fault, right?

Mc74 writes:
This place has not had a serious discussion about politics in years.

Wrong - there have been plenty of attempts, by me and others, to discuss politics seriously on PDXRadio. It's true that the followups by you and others have been inane and contributed nothing to serious political discussion. Isn't it ironic that you of all people would complain about the lack of serious discussion here after all of your stupid comments here over the years?

If you want serious political discussion here, engage in it when it is offered instead of being a dumbass most of the time.

Andrew

First you describe yourself as one to "discuss politics seriously."

Then you gripe, saying followups you don't agree with are "...inane and contributed nothing to 'serious political discussion."

Next, you whine about others and say their comments are 'stupid,' then continue to just outright name call.

If this is the new "serious" democrat approach, I cannot wait until 2008.

Herb

Skybill,

I'm a HS teacher, and I have students that will NOT do the work necessary to get a passing grade. They expect that they should pass just because they kept the seat warm, or "Hey, I was there everyday" or "Hey, I turned in all my work." They seem oblivious to the fact that *quality* of work matters, that proper motivation matters, that they do not deserve a passing grade by default. I give them advice, I offer to help them get caught up, but I make it clear that it is *their* grade, and they must earn it. Schmoozing me won't work, and there are no shortcuts.

Some of them wake up, get it in gear and get moving. And most of them, after realizing there are no free rides and that they only deserve what they earn, find a way to pass my class.

Then there are those who don't - and probably never will - get it. They dig in and hunker down, and refuse to accept that they are in a situation of their own doing, and that in my class only they can save themselves.

You know what their final fall back position is?

"I can't pass Mr. Edselehr's class because he hates me."

Wenever I hear the conservative Bush Bashing meme, this is what I think of.

I honestly think all of America, right and left, would give Bush a passing grade for his tenure as President if he would

1. Make up missing work (if completed, will still be docked points for being late) such as Katrina recovery, balancing the budget and writing his Energy Policy essay (without cutting and pasting from online oil company sites)

2. Stop taking extended family vacations to Crawford during the school year (attendance is critical)

3. Work cooperatively on group projects, such as lawmaking and federal appointments.

4. Because of a below passing average for the first 6 years, Bush will have to score above average for the last two years if he hopes to get his approval rating above passing by the end of his presidency. Remember that 60% is considered passing. And like I tell my students, "No, 59% is not 'close enough'."

True story: Once I failed a senior because he turned in a plagarized final essay that he needed to pass, that he didn't write (his sister did) - and he openly admitted it! That afternoon the main office was filled with irate aunts, uncles and other various family members ready to lynch me for "not passing" this kid. Y'see, they had traveled from far away to see him walk the stage, and now that wasn't going to happen. And they were blaming me! Their dear precious boy was being persecuted by me, and it was my fault he was not graduating.

Skybill, when you whine like you are doing above, you remind me of that kids family. Defend your boy at all costs, and mock any criticisms of him. And ignore the evidence of misdeeds, because the world is only out to get him.

(rant done)

I absolutely would recognize this effort, should President Bush engage in it, and react accordingly.

That's a major part of what any advocacy is all about; namely, pressure.

Any effort of this kind would also signal to the rest of the GOP that the kind of crap that has gone on is just not ok going forward. Frankly, this nation would be a lot better for it.

I would give the guy an A, on merit, on that alone, given the effort was honest.

Edselehr, what about that 59 percent, plus one heck of a hail mary, with some serious contrition mixed in? You know, the student that pulls it out, and means it right at the end? Still fail 'em?

"Edselehr, what about that 59 percent, plus one heck of a hail mary, with some serious contrition mixed in? You know, the student that pulls it out, and means it right at the end? Still fail 'em?"

If they can do 59% then they can do 60%. Hey, I'm a hardass. (but I'll keep working with them to get that 60)

(actually, I'll round 59.5% up to a 60%)

I had a teacher like that. Good one too.

The rounding bit is funny!

Do you keep the grades to one or two places?

Edselehr, I'm not whining I'm just stating what I see. If you look (I'm sure that you already see it because you are on here as much as anyone) you'll see that almost every thread, no matter what the topic, ends up being a "Bush Sucks" thread.

That's my view from reading thru these threads.

All that being said, we need MORE teachers like you. Teachers that are not afraid to fail a student that doesn't "make the grade".

If our educational system was full of dedicated teachers like you that actually care if a student learns what is being taught, we wouldn't have kids graduating from high school unable to read at a junior high level.

For example, in the school my daughter goes to (9th grade), her math teacher (who barely speaks English) puts the work up on the chalk board (do they still have chalk boards?) and gives a very cursory explanation of how to do it.

When my daughter tells him she doesn't understand, he says, "It's on the board. Figure it out".

We've had discussions with him, and in his defense it's not all his fault my daughter can be lax at times, but we don't seem to get anywhere. My wife and I are going to have to take it to the principal to see if we can get it straightened out or get her moved out of that particular class.

Back to the original point, I just get tired of the same old thing over and over again.

Rather than the threads turning into "Bush Sucks" threads, I love to see constructive criticism and positive suggestions of how things could be turned around and improved.

I'll be the first to say that I don't agree with all his actions. I think he's lost his mind on the immigration issue. And the war does need something different done with it. I don't think yanking our troops out is the right solution, but on the other hand, I don't know what the solution is either. I suspect that there are issues over there that none of us knows about nor will we ever know about them.

Anyway, those are my thoughts! I'm going to go put my son's new ceiling fan up!

"bush sucks" thread exists because, well, bush sucks.

among the democrat leaders:

nancy p hasn't done anything stupid worth debating about has she?

ted kennedy likewise hasn't done anything stupid in recent years has he?

howard dean hasn't done any yelling worth starting a thread about has he?

even our favorite pal bill clinton has avoided controversy in the last 6 years.


GW Bush keeps himself the topic of discussion in this forum by making one bonehead decision (or nondecision) after another. (and another, and another . . .)

skiybill: "I love to see constructive criticism and positive suggestions of how things could be turned around and improved."

Not that it hasn't been done in here but it doesn't really matter does it? Bush has declared that he's the decider and that's it. Who cares what ANYBODY -- no matter how highly regarded or credentialed one is -- says, if you're not a Bush Loyalist, your input is invalid.

...actually, if you are a loyalist, your input is still invalid, you just feel a lot better about it.

"This place has not had a serious discussion about politics in years."

I don't know, man. I've really been given pause and learned TONS here. I don't know what a " political discussion " would do for you if it WERE good/serious/whatever - but it doesn't surprise me that that is your take.

You don't put very much in. So, you know, you probably don't get very much out. That's understandable.

Skybill,

Thanks for the positive comments. But you are not raising the discussion above "Bush sucks" by overgeneralizing that essentially all critical or negative comments about Bush are coming from people that hate Bush, as if his failures as president are a result of being hated.

Yes, Bush Haters are out there (Trixter sounds like one to me - correct me Trix if I'm wrong) but you have to ask: why do they hate him?

I suppose it gets to the point for some people that no matter what Bush does, the sins they see him having committed as President up to this point are irredeemable; nothing he can do from this point on will make up for his mistakes so far. Or maybe he has "misrepresented" facts so often that some Bush Haters find him completely untrustworthy. I'm sure you've met people in your own life that have earned this kind of mistrust, or "hate". A good president could heal those rifts, and draw both sides of the debate together; Bush has rejected dissent, compromise, discussion of any kind. What ever happened to 'compassionate conservativism?' Did Bush ever really want to bring both extremes to the middle, or was that just a sales pitch he ran during an election just to get votes? America loved Reagan, though many Americans disagreed with his policies. And he was fighting a much higher-stakes war with the Soviet Union (remember "The Day After?")

You can hate the policies and respect (even like) the president. With Bush many hate the policies *and* the president. If Bush has haters, its primarily his own fault.

Anyway, good luck on the ceiling fan. Remember to reinforce the box if necessary to support the weight. I almost had one crash down due to a loose box.

http://www.foxnews.com/wires/2007May06/0,4670,FranceElection,00.html

My French boycott is not only officially off, I shall now attempt to buy French products over most other foreign products, when possible.

Viva La France!!!

Herbert Milhous Sarkozy

SWEET!

THIS IS GREAT NEWS!

What'cha gonna buy first, Herb?

What DIDN'T you buy before that you WOULD have bought?

Do you like Ice Cream? Boy, I sure do. And dogs. They're so cool.

There's some very affordable quality wine & champagne, for starters.

http://www.frenchfoodexports.com/

Other products I recall seeing at local stores include mustard, sea salt, escargot and chocolate. However, I think I'll pass on the horsemeat...that is, if they still eat it over there.

Herbert S.

Herb said>>>>
If this is the new "serious" democrat approach, I cannot wait until 2008.

I hope that the TRUE Republicans come out because if the neo-CONers are the one's left to run for our side (Republican) we are screwed! If Rudy is our man he will have to appeal to more than just the MINORITY of EXTREME right wingers that want to CONTINUOUSLY push abortion and God down EVERYONE'S throats 24/7. If that's the agenda we will lose in horrendous fashion come fall of next year.

So wait, if I was told to not like the French before, you're saying I can like them now? Are we friends with the French now? Were we not before? And this is ALL because of an election?

Man, just think about how many people around the world are going to like us again when Bush leaves.

Awesome. We'll be friends with everyone again!

I bought some French green beans at Trader Joe's yesterday.

However, I think I'll stick with Washington and Oregon wines. I think they are a better value (taste vs. cost)

Go France!!!

"Are we friends with the French now?"

It's a big start. The French people are fed up with socialism.

That once-proud country also probably doesn't want to be remembered as having passed secret intel to Saddam under notorious socialist Jacque Chirac.

Socialism didn't work in Russia or the eastern bloc. It also hasn't worked in Cuba or North Korea, either. That is, unless you think those bastions of socialism are places you'd like to live.

Herb

I'm just asking -

Does anyone here think that either the Conservative push from us boycotting or even our general opinion had ANY effect on ANY decision ANY person voted in FRANCE?

I doubt it. It was just something to do!

Edit add:

I don't think that their (or any other country's) opinion of the US and it's policies would influence an election here.

I know I'm not going to change my vote because some other country doesn't like what we are doing.

It probably didn't make a big difference either way.

Look, the French people are getting hammered from all sides.

Low national birth rate, falling quality of life, failure to keep up with other european countries and an influx of immigrants who are not necessarily francophiles.

Imagine Canada trading places with the US on a map. These poor Frenchies are simply overwhelmed. With today's vote, they've made a great start. Now with Angela Merkel to their east, we can also work with France and Germany for a more secure and stable europe.

Herbert

Herb said>>>
Low national birth rate, falling quality of life, failure to keep up with other european countries and an influx of immigrants who are not necessarily francophiles.

Sounds kinda like America(s) in America the last 6 years....

Herb, man. Of all the people to be so excited for this - I gotta say - I'm surprised it's you. All those reasons you cite for what smacks of claiming a victory for yourself will be doubly claimed by those in other countries if a Democrat takes the White House on 2008. but THEN you'll say " Well, that's different." But it won't be.

Again, it's a mindset that reads like " I want victory. That's all that's important. And if I can't have it here - I'll take it in FRANCE!"

All those things you've personally cited as reasons why you dislike " The French " are still factual to you and still are there. But NOW they carry no weight because you got your way...IN FRANCE. WITH ONE ELECTION.

It's bizzare. And frankly, thin.

But I do have to acknowledge that at least you have shown the capacity to see it somewhere else. We'll see how you react when that very same thing happens to The United States. All this " The people have spoken " talk seems to go unrewarded by you when it happens here. That seems unfair.

Sorry, Trix.

We have low interest rates. Plus, home ownership is at an all-time high, and so is employment.

People are streaming in here for good reason, big guy. With all our good and bad, and with Mr. Bush in there, people wanna make their lives here.

Herbert M.

home ownership is at an all-time high

as are foreclosures. It's not going to kill us - but it's amazing what's gong on in the market. Being able to point to that alone is a misnomer.

Just thought that should be noted.

Like it or not, the difference between America and Cuba is that Americans are free to fail. Then try again. Then fail again. Then maybe succeed.

North Koreans or Cubans don't have that option. If one wants to visit socialist countries for health care, they'll see how important it is that incentive and risk taking be rewarded in a capitalist system. Otherwise, people simply think they automatically deserve a paycheck. Quality goes out the window.

A safety net? Sure. But the able-bodied need to work within the system or start their own business. At least then they'll like their boss.

Look at Asian and Russian immigrants who start out poor here and in a few years, they own the place.

Herb

CJ said>>>>
Just thought that should be noted.

Of which Herb wouldn't because it's bad news and fact.

All time high Unemployment????

http://dotcommonsense.blog-city.com/more_on_how_to_reconcile_bushs_job_stats_wit h_clintons_ac.htm

So, I believe the extreme conservative won the French election. The one who strongly supports the U.S. And, of course, the liberals are demonstrating in the streets. Like America, they can't stand to lose. Some things are universal.

http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/europe/05/06/france.election/index.html

Since Mr. Sarkozy likes America, it speaks volumes that the left here can't stand him.

A classic example of liberals blaming America first.

Herb

I believe this little story is germaine to the topic....

A long time ago, when Britain and France were at war, during one battle,the French captured an English colonel. They took him to their headquarters,and the French general began to question him.

Finally, as an afterthought, the French general asked, "Why do you English officers all wear red coats? Don't you know the red material makes you
easier targets for us to shoot at?"

In his bland English way, the officer informed the general that the reason English officers wear red coats is if they are shot the blood won't show,and the men they are leading won't panic.

And that is why, from that day to this, all French Army officers wear brown pants.

My biggest gripe about touting France's election as some kind of personal victory for Conservatives everywhere ( but especially those in the United States ) is that it will quickly becomes clear that victory for victory's sake will all be a headline or a bumpersticker. Go just ONE layer deeper ( like, say, " OK - they are right to have implemented this change. Name one policy that they have, that WE don't have, and that you'd like to see changed to mimic theirs." ) and they ( Conservatives here ) will never be suddenly in favor of. Or are you saying that the policies that Conservatives in America dislike in France are now going to change because of this victory?

I mean just in the past couple days around here Conservatives have been RAILING against VERY specific things that they HATE about France and how it could NEVER work here. I don't get this one bit. Who is your leader? ( O' Reilly? ) Have they " called off the boycott " and now you don't have to think for yourself any longer. I can't think of such a hypocritical about-face on a topic around here.

But in case I'm wrong, let's throw one out there;

Sarkozy said he wanted to tell his "American friends that they can rely on our friendship ... France will always be next to them when they need us."

But, he added, "Friends can think differently."

He then called on the United States "not to impede" in the fight against global warming. "On the contrary, they must lead this fight because humanity's fate is at stake here."

Are any conservatives on this board now in favor of leading the fight against global warming?

Heck, I'll decalre victory for Conservative ALL DAY LONG AND VERY LOUDLY if that's all you want and it get's things like Global Warming fixed.

You guys win! I was SO wrong.

There. Plan on really doing anything about it now? Is it all about some kind of pride thing? WTF?

Conversely, now that Conservatives in FRANCE have won an election, are you thinking that they will NOW send tons of troops into Iraq? Or are you saying that they were right to NOT send troops and we shouldn't have either?

What about their healthcare system? Think they are gong to change that IN FRANCE? Or is it more accurate to say " Healthcare in France is better than ours " now that Conservatives have won power and NOW you want to see it here in the U.S.?

It'll become about picking NONE of the issues that really make France France. It'll become about being able to put a " W " in the " Win " column, for Conservatives, IN AMERICA becasue of an election IN FRANCE.

Finally, I will say this again - if just being able to brag is all you want, you got it from me. Want to take credit for taking the lead on Global Warming? Then take the lead and publically change your mind. The healthcare system in France is one that we should steal? Fine. Conservatives then, steal it and I'll give you the credit.

Start disavowing tactics that delve into personal lives of candidates.

Pick one policy/cultural thing about France you like, that we don't have here. Anything. But make it the most important one to you. Not just some random one that has little effect on people. And say it, out loud, publically here. Because if you don't or can't, then I am back to my belief that it's just a need for victory for victory's sake.

And frankly, I'm cool with that if that's all you need.

( Oh the irony of a scenario in which France ends up uniting American citizens overnight ).

I find it amusing that the same people (Herb) who are celebrating this conservative victory in France as some huge, signifcant event are still in denial about the huge Democratic victory in our 2006 mid-term elections. But maybe, to Herb, a French election means a lot more than an American election?

Andrew

I swear I try and not over-simplify things and paint with too broad a brush, but Andrew, there are SO many things that have been said in the past that it really does look like that to me.

In fact, it looks SO much like that to me that I don't trust that feeling. It's too good to be true. But heck, I have asked for some clarity on my post above yours. I'm not saying it's impossible, but the likihood of suddenly seeing actual policy change to mimic France's, by conservatives here, would be surprising. Which only leaves " We have a victory..IN FRANCE! WE WIN! "

And that seems more than a little out of left field.

I find the link between Bush = America and French Conservative = Liking America, laughable.

[Sarkozy]...then called on the United States "not to impede" in the fight against global warming. "On the contrary, they must lead this fight because humanity's fate is at stake here."

"Are any conservatives on this board now in favor of leading the fight against global warming?"

Wait a minute. Mr. Sarkozy asked us not to impede. That's a big difference from leading.

How you guys can't grasp that the French, like Germany, have had enough of socialism is beyond me. Their country is flagging to the point where the French are willing to change. You ask us to name what we like about France. Their countryside is beautiful.

The real story here is that two of the biggest economies in Europe have soundly rejected socialism. And as far as a French election meaning more than an American election, off-year elections almost always go to the out of power party. You can look it up.

Herb

"[Sarkozy]...then called on the United States "not to impede" in the fight against global warming. "On the contrary, they must lead this fight because humanity's fate is at stake here."

"Are any conservatives on this board now in favor of leading the fight against global warming?"

Wait a minute. Mr. Sarkozy asked us not to impede. That's a big difference from leading."

Are you saying he didn't ask us to lead?

I missed the part about "On the contrary, they must lead..."

My error. Sorry.

Herb

Herb writes:
How you guys can't grasp that the French, like Germany, have had enough of socialism is beyond me.

How you guys can't grasp that Americans, after the 2006 election, have had enough of conservatism and Republican government is beyond me, too - but for some reason you don't see it that way, now, do you?

Andrew

I missed the part about "On the contrary, they must lead..."

My error. Sorry.

Herb

No problem. I figured it had to be a simple oversight.

So where does that leave you? You are willing to follow, but not lead? Or is all that you are willing to do is get out of people's way that DO want to fight it?

Or something else?

I know I'm sounding like a broken record, but if one is a troll, comments don't need to add up, let alone make sense.

I also have to laugh at the troll's example where socialism has failed: Cuba. So, Castro has been in power what 47 years now? How many years is a measure of success?


ps: just watch the troll blast me for being a socialist just because I pointed out an error (not a difficult tast for a jr hs debate team) in his commentary.

It's also important to remember that what is called a Conservative in France is a much different breed of politician than a conservative in America. Remember that the the second place candidate, Royal (at less than 10% behind Sarkozy) is a *Socialist*. It's pretty clear that the political spectrum in France skews a bit left of the American one.

I'd have to check on this, but I would assume that Sarkozy is therefore more in line with a centrist Democrat like Jim Webb than Bush.

"You are willing to follow, but not lead?"

Neither.

I've often said that when it comes to the war on terror, the left needs to either lead, follow or get out of the way. My attitude is similar here.

I'll get out of the way and let others fight it out. And since the cause for global warming is unclear, so is the solution. Besides, as long as elitist politicos hypocritically tell me what to do, whilst doing the opposite, it's simply not my core issue. Just a few decades ago, all the 'scientists' said we were in for a deep freeze. There are dozens of other important issues.

Herb

"It's also important to remember that what is called a Conservative in France is a much different breed of politician than a conservative in America."

I was going to ask about that later. But it was going to be a trap!

DANG YOU EDSELEHR!

Herb writes:
And since the cause for global warming is unclear, so is the solution.

The cause of Global Warming may be unclear to you and a tiny minority of people, yes - but certainly not to scientists and to the rest of us.

The real solution, I agree, has not been accepted by nearly anyone on the left or the right. Just finding cleaner-burning cars and power plants will NOT solve global warming. Only capping world population growth will do it in my opinion. And that's never going to happen voluntarily. If not, Mother Nature will find her own way to cap it.

Andrew

So ok - Herb does not support France's call for the US to lead the fight on Global Warming.

Up next - terror!

Do you think France will send their own troops into Iraq now that there is a "Conservative" victory at hand? If not, what WILL they do that will be any different than they are doing currently?

I found this very interesting commentary, regarding where this guy is politically. Note the contrast, in particular to a neo-conservative worldview. (seen here from the GOP)

-------------

The election in France will almost prove to be the single most important event in this decade, for this election signals a tidal shift back to asserting that Western values are superior. This tidal shift will be resolutely proved if the French citizens give control of the French National Assembly to pro-Sarkozy politicians in June.

Note that Sarkozy is not a neoconservative in the American sense. In European culture, he may seem very conservative, but in American culture, he is mostly a moderate populist. He wants to maximize the wealth for the middle class, not the upper class.

Allow me to elaborate. First, he opposes an open-border policy. Most American neoconservatives favor an open-border policy because they like to use illegal and legal immigration to suppress wages. American agribusiness, not just Hispanic groups like La Raza, are the strongest advocates for allowing the importation of desperate foreign labor.

Sarkozy supports strong restrictions on immigration but favors treating immigrants kindly. The concept of immigrants working 14+ hours per day is considered to be cruel. He does not favor such brutal working conditions. Note that both parents of Seung Hui Cho, the mass murderer at Virginia Tech, worked 14+ hours per day. Neoconservatives applaud this situation: with glee, they self-servingly "praise" the hardworking nature of the Korean parents are. The consequence is that his parents were just too busy at work to give Seung Hui Cho the proper care that he needed. They never even noticed his rapid mental degeneration.

Second, Sarkozy supports globalization with only other free markets. So, he supports the European Union. However, he opposes fake free trade with non-free markets like India. He realizes that this kind of trade drives down the quality of life in France. He realizes that combining a free market and a non-free market damages the operation of the free market.

By contrast, American neoconservatives favor fake free trade with non-free markets like India.

Nonetheless, Sarkozy will (if the legislative election in June is favorable) will vastly transform France. It will not be the brutal kind (i.e., 14+ hours of work by illegal aliens) of capitalism in America. Rather, France will be a kinder, gentler economic superpower. If he succeeds (and I think that he will), I would likely prefer to live in France instead of America.

------------------------------

Interesting take huh?

At this stage, I don't know enough to really comment farther, but it is something to watch evolve for a few years.

Citing Cho as a reason for anything was lame.

But the point is not lost on me. I'll watch, listen and learn. I wish them GREAT success. Honestly.

I will concede that France has swung deep into the (American) conservative zone as soon as those French troops arrive in Iraq.

I'm also waiting for a reply to the unanswered questions chickenjuggler has posed to the troll.

Hmm, shocking. The French, one of the pioneers of European socialism, taking a hard right turn. My guess is that they were tired of Chirac's blowhard stubbornness and his disdain for his EU brethren.

So does Sarkozy support this "compassionate conservatism" that Dubya kept shoving down our throats during the 2000 election?

That's what the contributor quoted above seems to think.

Will be an interesting few years. Won't take long to find out!

"If not, what WILL [France] do that will be any different than they are doing currently?"

Here's my bon mot: I'll be happy if France no longer gives intel to our enemies. Seriously. If that is the only change given the conservative victory in France, it's more than we had before. Everything else is gravy.

Adieu-

Herb

OK - So Herb does not support France's call for the US to lead the way in teh fight against Global Warming.

Herb is satisfied with France no longer giving intel to our enimies.

Up next - Healthcare.

Herb, is there anything about their healthcare system that we don't have here that you think we should try out for ourselves?

http://www.frenchentree.com/fe-health/DisplayArticle.asp?ID=197

Start with a 20% tax on everyone, and self employed paying more. That would eliminate a lot of jobs.

Then you have to pay for your treatment up front, and later be reimbursed, talk about a scam!

I bet a lot of poor people, never go to the doctor, because they cant afford the upfront cost.
nwokie

"I bet a lot of poor people, never go to the doctor, because they cant afford the upfront cost."

Where? In America or France?

( I sense some really circular logic coming from you NWOkie - but for now - I'd like to talk to Herb ).

CJ asked: "Where? In America or France?"

I'll answer that for you so you can stay focused on the troll. Its a trick question, but it can't be America because GW Bush is president -- the man who can do no wrong.

Herb, is there anything about their healthcare system that we don't have here that you think we should try out for ourselves?

Great question. Maybe someone can enlighten us. I honestly don't know what they're doing right. I only know that socialized medicine provides little incentive for good care.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/2003-08-21-france-heat_x.htm

That, and the fact that French health care workers take long holidays all at once can have disasterous effects.

Herb

This is the new Europe I was talking about:

http://mobile.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/L07124140.htm?=amp&_lite_=1

Particularly telling is this sentence from that article:

"Born within six months of each other, Sarkozy and Merkel are outsiders who overcame strong opposition from within their own parties to reach the pinnacle of European politics -- she as a pastor's daughter from communist East Germany and he as the son of a Hungarian immigrant who fled communism."

The next time you guys downplay the horrific tragedy of communism, or toy with its dangerous cousin, socialism, understand that these people now leading Europe actually lived through it. And remember what Mr. Nixon said:

"Communist leaders believe in Lenin’s precept: Probe with bayonets. If you encounter mush, proceed; if you encounter steel, withdraw."

I hate war as much as the next guy. But if it's steel they're asking for, it's steel they'll get. Thank goodness the europeans are waking up before it's gone quite that far. Otherwise, we'll be saving their bacon again.

Herb

OK - So Herb does not support France's call for the US to lead the way in the fight against Global Warming.

Herb is satisfied with France no longer giving intel to our enimies.

On Healthcare he honestly doesn't know. But says "I only know that socialized medicine provides little incentive for good care."

Herb, what if I could prove to you that France's healthcare system gives good care and that holidays taken by workers does not effect the system to the degree that you worry about? Would that make any difference to you? Or would it not, solely because it stems from a socialized system?

I'm not trying to pick a fight with you Herb. But I was surprised to read a thread like this AND it was started by you.

Here's what I fear ( I'll stop short of saying " predict " );

You want to like the French again. All the reasons you have given in the past are still in place - but you are willing to forgive and forget.

But someone is going to come along ( and it will be along the lines of Fox News or some other media outlet like that ) that is going to start calling for people to not like The French again. It won't be for any of the tangible ( and frankly, IMPORTANT ) reasons we have discussed here - it will be for something MUCH less important. It will be minute on the big scheme of things. But it will SOUND good. And you will rejoin that call just because someone has told you to do so. Because it sounds good. I'm not implying that you are easilly influenced - I'm saying it. But the frustrating part is that you are only influenced by outlets that have an agenda that does more harm than good. It's rarely for the positive or for the sake of some kind of goodwill gesture that you'll get behind. But boy, start coming up with catchy phrase that maligns someone or something or an idea, and you cease to think for yourself and RUN to join that!

It's unfair to sell yourself short like that. ( I'm not meaning for that to sound so " Be like me." So take it with as much benefit of the doubt that you can muster for me ). But it's frustrating to pretend that any of those calls to " dislike " something has any basis in reality.

I don't know very much about France. In fact, as weird as it sound, I FEEL like like know more about YOU than I do France. Which, still, isn't very hard to top.

So if you are really going to put effort into supporting France publically - at least be prepared to stick by that when O Reilly starts twisting your good ideas into something bad.

In the meanwhile, as backhanded as it sounds but honestly is not - The fact that you are showing the ability to change your mind on something as mundane as some of the topics we have discussed, does not go unnoticed by me. And not that you need my approval, but I like that in a person. Equally. Not just you,

But you gotta admit, you're a tough nut to crack sometimes, eh?

I found a French Army Rifle on EBay the other day.
The description read as follows:
1 Used French Army Rifle, Great Condition, Never Fired, Dropped Once!!
The seller had large quantities all in the same condition if you need more than one!! He also has a surplus of White Flags!!

Littlesongs-As the French say: Touche'.
However you have to admit that the French, as a nation, have brought much negativity on themselves. They also give better than they get.

That's why jokes like Darktemper's are humourous.
I found it telling that Mr. Sarkozy, France's new president, admonished his countrymen to [my words] stop the self-flagellation of liberal guilt. I believe that's what their election was largely about. The French are tired of looking backward. They want to look forward.

Sure, I watch Fox News. But believe it or not, I out-O'Reilly'd O'Reilly. How, you ask? I WAS BOYCOTTING FRANCE BEFORE HE UTTERED A WORD ABOUT IT.

It boils down to this-I simply have a problem with unrepentant actions that are diametrically opposed to the good of our country. That's been largely the case, given the actions and attitude of Jacque Chirac.

Herb