Conservatives/Republicans;

I honestly don't understand this moniker of " The Elitie " when used in a political stance. It's stated as something bad, often. But every honest definition I can find is NOT bad. It is a thing that people generally and genuinely aspire to. But somehow Democrats have been saddled with this term as if it's bad.

I'm not just playing dumb - because maybe I really am on this issue.

So could someone tell me how it is bad to be elite in this case?

I have MANY more questions. But I'd like to just start here.

Elite is bad when a multi-millionaire slick lawyer like John Edwards with numerous mansions purports to represent the common man, but really doesn't...when millionaire Mrs. Clinton panders to poor southerners with a fake drawl...when millionaire Al Gore is so over the top in the use of his energy, yet accusatory to others using 1/10 as much.

I say consumption is fine. But don't be hypocritical and preach the opposite. That's elitism.

Herb

So " elite " denotes a financial status? I always thought it had to do with intellect when used as a pejorative.

Can a person of meager means be considered " part of the elite "?

I don't think so, but they can practice elitism as Herb described above.

" don't be hypocritical and preach the opposite."

Can one do that without being " part of the elite "?

Yes.

So in that case, what is it that makes them " elite "? Specifically.

Just general hypocrisy?

That's a differentiator for me.

"Elite" is a neutral descriptor, like "liberal" or "conservative", but the manner in which it is used is what makes it a political criticism.

Elite is used to describe people seen as out of touch with those ideas or causes they proport to understand and empathize with. If George Bush or John Kerry, both Ivy-league educated, pampered millionaires from wealthy families, say that they understand the problems of average Americans, either could be accused of being "elitist". But because Bush chooses to clear brush in his spare time while Kerry chooses to ski, the accusation seems to more easily stick to Kerry.

Elite is one of those slippery words whose "goodness" or "badness" comes from the context in which it is used. If you read http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/elite
you will see a fairly neutral set of definitions that all suggest that if you have some metric for ranking things, the things at the top are elite.

If you are talking about GPAs of students or about the reputation of schools, corporations, or other institutions, elite is generally good. It means "cream of the crop."

In the above definition, now look at section d: "a group of persons who by virtue of position or education exercise much power or influence." I believe that this is the one that often is used with negative connotations. Often some resentment is implied over the position that these people wield in society. This goes along with the element that Ed points out that because these people are of a social position that is not average, there is skepticism that they have ever experienced the frustrations and challenges that average citizens face.

They used to be known as limousine liberals, but more recently they've come to be known as Learjet liberals.

So apparently Herb and Deane, the word "elite" NEVER applies or is used in regards to Republicans? ONLY "liberal" or Democrats? So, if you're a multi-millionaire slick lawyer that's a Republican and you purport to relate to the "common man" you're not "elite"?

You guys crack me up. So, so, predictable. I could have written Herb's response above as soon as I read the opening post. Democrats and "liberals", bad. Republicans and "conservatives" good. It's tiring, boring, not helpful, negative, and plain stupid. I'm close to taking another break from you two, it's just getting ridiculous.

Have fun now, flame away.

Warner, the difference is that the Republicans don't pretend to be anything else.

Bullshit, horseshit and cowshit.

They pretend to be morally clean, yet divorice, have affairs, marry multiple times, etc... Wonder how many of them are on the DC Madam, "I want a ball buster please!", phone list? Hmmm....

They engage in corruption, while claiming to fight the same. Didn't the (P)resident claim to run on something like this?

It goes on and on and on.

Anyone can practice elitism. Those powerful people, who may not easily identify with the rest of us ordinary people, are elite! Period, end of story, next done!

Elitism is not a partisan thing.

Yeah, like missing said!

Are we talking about rich and successful or getting horny. The Republicans get horny too you know.

It's become partisan in the sense that the right has captured a term that is at its base nonpartisan and turned it into a term that has continually been used by the right against the left, until it is a term that apparently can *only* be used against the left.

If Bush or Cheney ever claim to understand the average American, by the definitions we have developed here they are being elitist. Correct, DJ? If not correct, why not?

You're no doubt correct Edselehr.

"Elitism is the belief or attitude that those individuals who are considered members of the elite — a select group of people with outstanding personal abilities, intellect, wealth, specialized training or experience, or other distinctive attributes — are those whose views on a matter are to be taken the most seriously or carry the most weight; whose views and/or actions are mostly likely to be constructive to society as a whole; or whose extraordinary skills, abilities or wisdom render them especially fit to govern."

I suspect it was applied to some Democrats due to their "do as we say, not as we do attitude". Conservation being one of the leading examples. The other is the attitude that a number of liberals have that they are pre-ordained to be the leaders of the country and to be in charge.

"It's become partisan in the sense that the right has captured a term that is at its base nonpartisan and turned it into a term that has continually been used by the right against the left, until it is a term that apparently can *only* be used against the left."

I believe this. It makes the most sense. I have only seen the right use it - mostly out of habit and general cuteness - but once I gave it a small bit of thought and asked a few questions, the supposition that it only applies to whom they use it against, fell apart.

I will say that I learned more about it. I really did think it was more of an intellectual term - used against people who have an education or have power. As if The Republicans were simple folk. And THAT is what made me start questioning it.

So thanks.

"The other is the attitude that a number of liberals have that they are pre-ordained to be the leaders of the country and to be in charge."

Let's none of us delude ourselves into thinking that only the opposition candidate is power hungry, and carried a sense of entitlement. ANYONE with balls enough to run for president (Hillary included) by default has a higher-than-average sense of self-importance, personal grandeur and self-righteousness. It is part and parcel with thinking you have what it takes to be the leader of the free world.

We're talking every single candidate, from Edwards to Romney to Guliani to Obama to Nader McCain to LaRouche. They all fit your description.

Could this be exactly why the unitary executive is among the WORLDS KNOWN WORST IDEAS?

Hmmmm....

So I've been continuing to look into this topic a bit more. I'd really like to do something - but before I do - I want to ask:

Who else here is logged on as I post this and can hang around for about another hour or so?

I'm here. I'll do the hour.

(playing poker)

Thanks for the invite CJ, it's an intriguing discussion. Can you maybe post up all your thoughts/ideas/questions in one post and let the rest of us throw you feedback as we are available?

10:09 now and I need to get a good night's sleep for a busy weekend. Have a nice evening...

We'll do this another time. But I have something I'd like for y'all to hear.

Anytime.

Count me in too.

Chickenjuggler, As long as I'm at my computer, I love to join in too.

DA said>>>>
Warner, the difference is that the neo-CONer/Republicans don't pretend to be anything else.

And that shows by DUHbya's approval ratings. DUHbya is going to make it hard for your ELITE neo-CONers to get back in the White House. People like Rove and Co. will have to find somewhere else to push their horseshit now.

Neo-con, neo-con...blah, blah, blah.
How about something positive for once, Trixter?
You complain that conservatives are the ones that paint a bleak portrait and use scare tactics. Are you really any different?

Herb

Herb,

You need to kinda ignore Trixter - I do (no offense, Trix). I view him like Tourette's Syndrome - often offensive, usually over the top, but trying to get a point across as best he can. Peel back the bluster and there's often a nugget of an idea worth thinking about.

But then again, sometimes he's just spewing crap.

"You complain that conservatives are the ones that paint a bleak portrait and use scare tactics."

This isn't a complaint. Its a statement of fact: Dick Cheney: 'Elect Kerry and they will hit us, again and again.'

Things ARE bleak. You've got to allow your fellow Republicans to vent somewhere.

Trixter grew up in the same conservative house as you. Some people have an adverse reaction to the toxic atmosphere there. Clean up your house and Trixter goes away.

Actually, we keep Trixter, but we get to see more of the humorous Trixter!

I personally can't wait!

If Bush is re-elected, he will reinstate the draft. Remember, that was a scare tactic by the Democrats.

Didn't happen.

If he really wants to actually regain control of Iraq, instead of running out the clock, he should be advocating for the draft right now.

We either need to seriously commit to Iraq, or leave.

Good point, Edselehr.

I don't mind the good Trixter. You know, the positive guy who doesn't visit very often? But every blue moon, rather than simply spew venom, he actually offers a legitimate liberal talking point or so for his own position.

It's his evil, 'gloom and doom,' neo-con bashing twin I have a problem with.

Herbert Schmerbert

Herb, your evil 'gloom and doom' liberal bashing twin annoys the hell out of many of us also, but we have found ways to deal with it.

(waiting to meet the good twin someday )

When I think of "The Elite" it can mean either a good thing or a bad thing to me.

Good would be someone like Bill Gates who while being "elite" has given an untold amount to charity to help others.

Bad would be someone like Paris Hilton who thinks that because they have tons of money they are better than "you" are and deserve special treatment.

To me it's not a partisan or political thing and much as it is a perception of the person and how they conduct themselves.

OK - I wanted to edit the interview I have an audio version of to try and and create as unbaisable ( not a word ) take on the topic. But I changed my mind.

It's pretty amazing ( to me ) and while it's long, the specfic examples given are pretty engaging.

PLEASE understand that this isn't an attempt to plug my station. You can either believe that or not. But if you look at my profile, and you have a broadband connection and WMA player, you can tune in to hear it.

My best suggestion would be to listen and be typing your thoughts while you hear it and then post it after it ends. Or not. No rules. It's quite relavent to this topic that interests me very much.

I'll play the 51 minute interview at around 15 minutes after 9 tonight. Tune in early so you can know if you can connect ( I have alternate ways to listen if you don't have WMA ).

Anyway, I found it interesting. Maybe you won't. But, you know, it's something.

Sean.

If you have iTunes, click the advanced tab, then paste this link into the " open stream " box -

216.66.69.4:9562

It will remain in your iTunes library as "Salem FM."

I'm on dialup now (DSL coming May 12) so I'll have to glean what I can from any discussion that is generated.

I encourage everyone who can to jump in and listen to CJ's audio posting and contribute any feedback you can. Sean has prompted some good discourse here and I'd like to see that continue.

I want to do this, but cannot spare the bandwidth or latency right now.

(yeah, poker again, not my game, or I would just deal.)

Tomorrow evening perhaps, or stash an MP3, WMA somewhere people can download?

I've a nice drive in the morning, would be a good time to listen...

Hey - no problem. I don't want to be the guy at the party that's hanging out by the stereo going " SHHH - SHHH - Everybody! Listen to THIS! "

I still like the format here just fine.

Don't get me wrong. I think it's an interesting exercise. Worth a shot, just bad timing...

I do this with a good friend sometimes. We use IM, or IRC, and discuss music, either stuff being produced by us, or just stuff we think is cool. This forum would serve well enough for the kind of interaction you are looking for.

On no - I totally hear ya.

The website is close to being up and it'll feature some goodies like that.

Herb said>>>>
How about something positive for once, Trixter?

And when are you going to do the same????

Herb said>>>
I don't mind the good Trixter. You know, the positive guy who doesn't visit very often? But every blue moon, rather than simply spew venom, he actually offers a legitimate liberal talking point or so for his own position.

Sounds ALOT like yourself there Herb.... You should read your OWN posts sometimes and listen while you read them.... READ THEM OUT LOUD!!!!

Herb...
I'm waiting for something POSITIVE about a Lib. ANYTHING!!!!!!! Your one of the most NEGATIVE person here period.

Let's hear what your side is doing right, Trixter.
C'mon. You can do it.

Herb

I think that if Rudy is the one that True Republicans can stand together and FINALLY push the neo-CONers out and run this country the way Republican should with FISCAL RESPONSIBILTIY! And taking care of AMERICANS!!!!!! Strong infrastructure and good schools with Health care that will benefit ALL AMERICANS not just the top 7%!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And your side??? COME ON NOW! Herb YOU can do it!

Rudy's OK and America's mayor, but strictly on the pro-life issue he's not my first choice.

I'd like to know more about Fred Thompson.

Herb

If he uses the moniker America's mayor he will lose miserably!

As for Thompson. If Reagan was President then Freddie can do it too! If he is for a TRUE Republican agenda then I will listen.

Maybe we agree on Thompson, then Trix.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/onpolitics/watergate/fredthompson.html

Looks like Mr. Thompson was on some Watergate commission. Hmmmm, he could be really good if he was a Nixon man!

Herbert M.

Herb said>>>>>
He could be really good if he was a Nixon man!

Then in CLEAR conscious I couldn't vote for him if he was a Nixon man. Sorry.....

You ever notice how almost every single one of Trixters post usually start with "herb said"?

Its like he doesnt have an original thought himself.

You ever notice almost all of Trixter's posts have the word Neocon?

Does he have Tourette's Syndrome?

You ever notice that Herb always signs his posts, even though his ID automatically appears at the top? Kinda redundant, wouldn't you say? But hey, that's Herb's Way.

Trix has his style too, so cut him some slack. Try responding to what he says, not how he says it.

"And that shows by DUHbya's approval ratings. DUHbya is going to make it hard for your ELITE neo-CONers to get back in the White House. People like Rove and Co. will have to find somewhere else to push their horseshit now."

How would you respond to this?

>>>"You ever notice how almost every single one of Trixters post usually start with "herb said"?

Its like he doesnt have an original thought himself."


Actually, he doesn't. But, he's operating at the maximum of his capacity. We should be like the Democrats. A big tent who has room for everyone.

If neo-con were removed from Trixter's vocabulary, he appears to have little to discuss.

Herb

Actually, he doesn't. But, he's operating at the maximum of his capacity. We should be like the Democrats. A big tent who has room for everyone.

Keep it up and in November you'll lose the White House. It's crap like that, that will lose that seat also. Belittlement is what your all about and it doesn't sit well with America and it shows. You talk DOWN to everyone that doesn't think JUST like you.
DJ.. I use to think of you as a middle of the road kind of girl but you've shown more and more that you watch to much propaganda on that big screen you've got in your parents basement. I don't know if the Midwest has been kind to you. Operating on maximum capacity. WOW! That's a good one!
Sticks and stone will break my bones but INSULTS will never hurt me. LOL! Damn! Your just too good for me......
I'm just going to go into the corner and read all of Herb's posts about Pinko Commies, Lefties, Leftists, Hand wringing, how bad the French are, how bad Hillary is, how bad Slick Willy was, How great Nixon was, How Lefties are on abortion and about 4 other repeated phrases that he has used.....

pink around the gills
ham-fisted
ad hominum
lily livered
hand wringing
whilst
blah blah blah blah broken record nothing new to add

The labels do get tiring. They get so over-used that it becomes funny. And the sheer transparency of their reason for being used is laughable.

Has anyone used " Cabal " yet around here? It's all the rage for the right. That's an especially funny one. It's never used to describe anything positive for the right - only bad for the left. As if THAT'S WHAT IT MEANS!

I'm tellin' ya - you guys gotta hear this interview I have to play. It's very fascinating to hear this guy dissect the specific language of politics.

Maybe I'll put it on a loop some weekend day.

cochise, you've a question on the table you've ducked for what like 6 months now?

Is "ducked" an overused phrase yet?

Do the loop!

Glad you're back, Cochise.

Herb

Con's use of the word "cabal" to describe their opposition is just another example of Rovian doublethink- use of the word that best describes one's own group against one's opposition, so that way they can't use it themselves.

I've put it on a loop.

It's worth listening to.

There's a 24K stream at

http://www.live365.com/profiles/salemfm