Precisely what the defeatist left doesn't want you to know:

http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2007-04-25T1 51438Z_01_L25235822_RTRUKOC_0_US-BINLADEN-IRAQ-AFGHANISTAN.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

Herb

What does the EXTREME KILLING REICH want you to know???

Hey Trixter-Ya got anything except calling people Nazis?

Didn't think so.

Herbert M.

Well I don't want to know so, I'm not gonna click it either, HerrB.

>>>"Hey Trixter-Ya got anything except calling people Nazis?"


I've been visiting this forum for a few years now, and I've certainly not noticed anything much deeper.

Well Herb Mr. Everyone but me is a leftist. I tire just as much from that as anything on this board. You got anything else besides calling everyone a leftist. I guess not!

did I hear a plonk?

SNAP!

If one espouses beliefs consistent with leftist ideology, what does one call them if not leftist?

Socialist?
Communist?
Radical?
Pinko?

Herb

American?

There has been no case made for left leaning thinking being bad. Heck, we've not even seen that in action, despite a solid mandate from the people for it to be so.

"There has been no case made for left leaning thinking being bad."

You're kidding, right?

No case for left leaning thinking being bad, like the atheistic, anti-God philosophy pushed by the left?

The left that's fine with illicit drugs and prostitution?

The left that slashes support for our very defense while pushing for higher taxes that fund an inefficient government?

The left that pushes loose crime laws where felons are released early?

The left that's swayed by an NEA lobby that provides less than adequate education even though more is spent on education than ever before?

The left that wants a system of socialized health care?

The left that's fine with abortion and denies the 2nd amendment right to self defense?

That's just for starters.

Herb

Bin Laden, if indeed he is still alive, is simply being an opportunist. No connection to Iraq in planning 911, however it dosen't surprise me that he and his organization are involved.

This just adds to my beliefs that the longer we stay more Bin Laden types are going to show up. God what a mess.

GOD you miss the point DUFUS! Why is Trixter so bad for calling the right Nazi's and it's fine for you to call everyone else leftist's! If you'll look back in history Trixter only pop's out with the Nazi comment after you post a bonehead thread or post labeling people as leftist's! You quit labeling and he probably will as well! Ya reap what ya sow dude!

Think of it as an Idiot-Echo. A well-thought out comment complete with sources don't usually result in an Idiot-Echo.

Chris: Totally. The ones we have are enough! The idea that more of them are gestating in our Iraq cesspool is more than worrysome.

There are Godless people on the left and right Herb.

Those on the left and right use illicit drugs and prostitution.

Currently from the right we have the highest deficit spending our nation has seen and Bush up until now has gotten Billions in military spending.

America has the most jailed people in the world.

If you talk to most teachers Bush's NCLB program is a joke. Teachers don't teach anymore they are test givers and we are losing some of our brightest who want to teach to other industries. My brother has spent 11-12 yrs teaching overseas but came home last year and is so frustrated with NCLB that he has become a paper pusher and not a teacher.

Herb if you gotta better idea about health care I'm all ears....the right hasn't come up with anything that's working.

If you do legalize abortion you will still have abortions. It's a far more complex issue than just making it illegal.

You still have your 2nd amendment rights but you seem to throw common sense out the window.

Aren't you glad we let Bin Laden get away at Tora Bora? I highly doubt if we hadn't pulled all those resources out of Afghanistan in 2002 to move on Iraq that it would have made annnny difference...

Anyway, Bin Laden's involvement in Iraq after March 2003 is irrelevent to the hard facts that Bin Laden had NO RELATIONSHIP with Saddam Hussein or Iraq before that point (except for being enemies).

Andrew

DA said>>>
WOW! I can see that MIT edubacation has done you well.....

Herb, All I can do it call you a Nazi??? How about you calling the rest of the Liberals on here Hand wringers??? Baby killers???
See it how you want but if you look real hard in the mirror you will see someone that throws out the names and insults just as well.

I want to sympathize with you.

But if supporting the right to kill an unborn child isn't even remotely supporting the right to baby killing, then what is it?

Herb

I dunno, Herb, why don't you ask Rudy why he supports killing babies? You need to resolve this confict within your own party - why is a pro-choice, pro-gay candidate the Republican frontrunner for 2008? - before questioning people in other political parties about their beliefs.

Andrew

Not again?

(People, resist!)

Well.... at least Herb can stand up and be a man and say that he throws out the insults like everyone else.
Thanks for coming clean.....

The difference between Herb and you is that Herb starts off offending by labeling everyone that does not share his tunnel vision of how thing should be as "Leftist's". Your comments are just in retaliation or an "ECHO" of his BS comments. Like I said if he were to quit then it would mostly go away. What if I were to start threads like "More Right REICH Wretchedness" or "Our REICHpublican Fuhrer screws up again"? You think Herb and the other (Yes there are more than one on this board) conservatives would sit by and not label me as a leftist? I think not. Quit with the damn labeling already!

NUFF Said!

Herb said:

"The left that slashes support for our very defense while pushing for higher taxes that fund an inefficient government?"

Herb didn't you work for the government? If so I would have to assume from your statement that you were inefficient.

"Herb didn't you work for the government?"

Uh, no. And it's not a slam against all government, but inefficient government. There is a difference. Having said that, the private sector could handle some things better than government and cheaper.

Herb

Like the mail?

and supplying the troops?

And coming up with an OUT strategy in Iraq???

If you actually believe government is more efficient than private enterprise, ever been to a VA Hospital lately?

Herb

And Enron? Or CEO's making insane amounts?

Sorry, but that goes both ways.

Look at Medicare or the Post office. Both run well, with low overhead and perform great services.

Of course, the first real private enterprise input to the post office, resulted in a rate structure that is regressive. Time Warner clearly does not mind the little guy handling more of the postal load...

Well run services takes more than just a blanket run it private, or run it through uncle sam idea. Both are valid, but solid regulation and incentives to keep the overhead out of things is necessary no matter what.

Missing, I doubt you will ever realize your dream - the Peoples Republic of America.

Neither the post office or Medicare pay any taxes, they both receive gove subsidies.

Fed Ex, UPS etc can deliver mail much more efficiently than the post office, what keeps the psot office in business, is the ban from private companies being able to deliver first class type mail.

Not at all Deane.

However, we don't need somebody at the top of essential services making an assload of money. If it's tax dollars, I want it run well. If it's money I must spend, on a government monopoly, I want it run well and not excessive.

Everything else, no biggie.

I'm all for capitalism. I'm not for free markets because there aren't any! Governments make markets, in that they craft the rules of engagement. This is our check on business extortion, plain and simple.

So, those rules need to be structured so that we are not exploited to a harmful degree.

When those rules change, people are impacted and it matters.

Look at US manufacturing here in the Northwest. In the 80's it was vibrant and provided a lot of jobs. Now, relaxing the rules to create a more "free" market has ruined that here. Now most all of it is off shore.

New startups, which I happen to work with on a regular basis, always complain about the lack of technical help available here. Result, fewer better paying jobs and less overall economic development. Longer term, this is not good.

We, the people here, are why this all exists. When our system of government starts favoring corporations and those powerful few that hold them, we all lose and that's not in our best interests.

Sorry if that rubs you the wrong way, but I've had quite enough of the free market idea. Free means we are gonna get screwed to the maximum extent possible.

So, either we have real competition, or regulation. Without these being in play, we are exploited far too much.

So, now...anyone here willing to go to a VA Hospital for treatment, as opposed to a private institution?

I didn't think so.

Government is good at some things, but unlike what democrat candidates try to sell you, government-run health care is not one of them.

Herb

I'm not convinced of that, but I'm open on all of it. I'm on the bad side of the whole insurance issue right now. It's pretty ugly and needs fixing, that's all I am sure of.

Wanted to clarify the compete or regulate bit as well. I don't care so much, which is done, or if there is a combination. What I do care about is the growing number of situations where we are supposed to have one or the other, working to protect all of us, and it's been diminished.

That's the big issue I always have in mind when I write about these things.

Look at cable TV or power, water, etc... The infrustructure does not provide for competition. It's just how it is. To do otherwise would require too much complexity and overhead, so we end up regulating those things.

Now look at coffee makers. Nobody needs those, but a lot of us want them. No need for much regulation, beyond the usual accounting and legal issues necessary for ethical business.

So competition keeps the price of your average coffee maker a reasonable value proposition. The incentive for innovation is there, in that the advantage it brings means more profit. Incentives for good prices are there as well, in that nobody wants to surrender their marketshare.

If one company were to buy up all the coffee makers, and their IP then jack prices, where would we be? We have anti-trust regulation in place to address that.

It's not a socialist thing at all. It's about the balance that makes sense for everyone.

Missing, isn't it NAFTA that's creating the off shore issues you speak of? Wasn't it Clinton that pushed that through?

I'll be the first to agree with you that some of these corporate incomes are obscene. However, it's the stockholders and the board of directors job to fix it, not the governments.

It is!

And Clinton is on my asshole list for it too! He did that, the DMCA, neglected IP law issues and deregulated media far too much, just to get started. Frankly, I don't see much discussion on these things from any party. Campaign reform would help this. Maybe it would be enough...

Frankly, I think it's as bad as abortion, etc... It's just not so ugly in the shorter term, easily hidden and excused away for most people.

Agreed on the obscene salary issues as well. I'm not sure how that's going to be addressed. Maybe more public awareness would help. The level we have has at least brought the issue forward.

Until that gets fixed, I'm very reluctant to entrust core infrastructure and services to private corporations --without firm regulation and or competition in play, front and center.

Heck, I break the law every day because of that DMCA legislation. I play DVD media I own, on a drive I own, on open source operating systems, instead of closed ones. That's actually a pretty stiff penalty, should it ever come up. Believe me when I say I wish Bill the best, every time I have to go assemble, and some times compile media software from distributions overseas, just to get basic tasks done...

One of the biggest problems in VA hospitals , is the salary level that can be paid to doctors, its in the low 100,000 range. So they can only get doctors interning, or doctors that cant get malpractice insurance.

Plus the fact there is no incentive for the doctors to work harder. They all do the best they can, but where in private practice if a doctor can see 4 patients an hour , instead of 3, his/her salary goes way up. Plus there is incentive for them to work extra hours.

VA doctors are pretty much 8 hr day, and see the minimum case load.

My take on why many, many jobs are moving overseas can be stated in one word. (This will probably create a firestorm!!!);

UNIONS.

Talk about a monopoly. In a state that doesn't have a Right to Work law, you are forced to join the union, pay union dues and then stand by unable to have a say in what political party the union donates to. (Although, I think recently there have been some court cases challenging that but I don't know the outcome of them)

Unions served their purpose back in the late 1800's and maybe the first half of the 1900's. Now the only thing they are good for is higher prices and filling up the bank account of the guy at the top of the union. (And making the occasional person disappear!)

It's time for unions to go away. IMHO

"It's time for unions to go away. IMHO"

If you're looking for America to be more like China, that's the way to do it.

The eras when America has had the highest average standard of living has been when union participation is the highest.

(I don't have a cite for that; just thinking back over properous eras and the rise/fall of unions throughout American history)

(note the use of the word *average* above. It's important)

Thank the Union for your 8 hour day, your 5 day week and the fact that your children don't work in a coal mine.

China has the only "unionized" shops in the whole Walmart empire. The company has embraced the Communist Party and has active members throughout the far east workforce. Aw, that rascal -- don't you all love our "other" Uncle Sam?

The 50s: Better dead than red.
The 00s: Better red and cheap than well made and American.

HerrB,

"So, now...anyone here willing to go to a VA Hospital for treatment, as opposed to a private institution?

I didn't think so."

I LOVE how you ask and answer your own post!

So, FYI: My father (Navy Officer, Korean War) utilizes the VA as well as his private health care providers and insurance...he's had a great knee doc up there, and that's probably why he's still skiing the steep stuff and playing tennis and squash almost every day at 77.

So you don't get to use the excuse "well nobody here will use the VA", although it's mainly because you know none of us here are eligible, so of course, no one is going to answer you the way you want.

P.S. Littlesongs:

I always wonder if someone the same age as Baby Merkin made the some of the outfits she's wearing, but at least it's been recycled through eBay (and I try to stick with the US-made brands)!

Thanks for the pro-union support guys. This allows me to focus on one thing skybill is DEAD WRONG about: "you are forced to join the union"

No, you're not. Nobody forced you to apply at an employer where union membership is required.

There are PLENTY of non-union jobs available for you, in particular, employers that share your hatred of unions. Wal-Mart awaits you.

Better yet, move to Texas, a right-to-work state where you can work at WalMart for $5.00 an hour and make your point LOUD and CLEAR to us greedy benefits loving union people.

Have a nice day.

Skeptical, I don't think joining a union should be a condition of employment.

But to be fair to the ones that do join and pay dues, if you don't join, you don't get the benefit of their insurance or other benefits.

It should be your choice, not mandatory.

Herb said>>>>
Government is good at some things, but unlike what democrat candidates try to sell you, government-run health care is not one of them.

Good point but I want to know what we do about the MILLIONS that don't have health care that cost us BILLIONS each year because they don't. If YOUR happy paying for that then that's cool with me but I for one do not. I would rather pay a little along the way than pay BILLIONS in the end when they are sick.

Canada has government run health care.

It takes months and months to get surgeries scheduled. That's why lots of Canadians come here to get their medical attention.

On the flip side, their prescription drugs cost a lot less which is why Americans go to Canada to get their prescriptions filled!

If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it's free!

Wow! I just looked back at the title of this thread!

It sure has drifted in different directions!

Many jobs have "conditions" . . . some require getting a degree, others require obtaining certifications and/or licenses, medical exams, membership in professional organizations -- many requiring dues/fees -- failure to obtain or pass these requiremenst results in dismaissals from employment. A union is no different.

Agreed on that score. Conditions of employment are just another consideration one must weigh before choosing to be employed.

If you've got issues, then it more or less makes good sense to pick and choose. I've turned down more than one high-paying job because of the attached terms and conditions. (Regretting that right now, given the healthcare issues, but that's life choices for you!)

I had a good conversation with a Canuck on health care the other day. I was at the airport, having missed Brian, I struck up a conversation with a fellow flyer.

Having to wait is a bummer, but so is having to pay. What happened to me was a lapse in insurance. Employer cancelled it right at a time when I was forced to pay it, or surrender my house! The employment outlook was not good (and still isn't) either. So I didn't pay it, thinking the financial trouble would pass and I could pick things up again. Giving up the house would have left my father in law homeless. Can't have that.

Well, my wife fell ill and here we are $70k or so in the hole to god knows how many people. Turns out this was missed when she was seen while covered. Had it been caught then, things would be different. I've paid my entire life and essentially used almost nothing to boot. Looking at the boxes that represent lost free time and dollars for I don't know how many years, I am extremely frustrated with our current system.

Interestingly, the monthly payments alone are gonna equal having a policy! I've got one coming now, but it's ugly. The KSKD financial situation is not looking good for a long while to come. The gift that will keep on giving!

In Canada, my wife might have waited and that would have been painful, but having been treated, we would be doing fine otherwise. We would not be facing boxes of invoices, phone calls, etc... It's a full time job dealing with the system as it is right now. Heck, even when insured it can be murder. My kids were in a car accident at a time when we had three layers of insurance on them. Several hundred phone calls, faxes and visits later, I had to get an attorney to handle things!

The Canadian essentially was shocked at that turn of events. One worries about getting the best care, or timely care, but generally does not worry about the care itself.

Having experienced this, up front and personal more than once, I'm sure we can arrive at a solution here where fundemental care can be had for all citizens, with those able to pay for a bump up in line, or quality, or cosmetics completely free to do so.

The biggest hassle is all the billing! It's a mess and can easily destroy the uninsured. (It might destroy me before it's all over!) I'm still finding amounts due and making deals with people I don't even recall ever having seen! Pre-existing clauses for employer supplied insurance is 6 months. For individuals, it's 24! (freaking 24 and they can choose to not write a policy, which several companies did, forcing me to find employment where they would supply a policy.)

A rather shocking secondary issue is the pricing. A given procedure is often billed to individuals at 2X or more the rate for insurance corporations and it's the same procedure! (What's with that?)

It's a major life mess and the size of the problem is not shrinking.

That's all gotta be costing us a lot. Perhaps just fix that for starters and more people would deal with medical care more easily, and the whole system would run cheaper. That's the single pay idea and it's a good one no matter how the rest of it goes, IMHO.

Case in point Re: Competition or Regulation, being required for proper balance.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/07_19/b4033001.htm?chan=top+news_to p+news+index_top+story

"I would rather pay a little along the way than pay BILLIONS in the end when they are sick."

We agree, Trixter. Health savings accounts may be a way to accomplish this.

Herb

And if you've nothing to save?

>>>"Many jobs have "conditions" . . . some require getting a degree, others require obtaining certifications and/or licenses, medical exams, membership in professional organizations -- many requiring dues/fees -- failure to obtain or pass these requiremenst results in dismaissals from employment. A union is no different."

Barf, Barf

Well?

How is it different?

I sip a little Kool-Aid once in a while because the nice kids down the street have it for 25 cents on a hot day. Though I am both generous and thirsty, my intake aint a big deal, heck, I don't even get a purple moustache.

Alas, like many in this forum, I was caught enjoying a frosty beverage. Now our buddy, the "Kool-Aid Kop" holds our feet to the fire every time we say anything he disagrees with or does not understand or does not feel like researching. Now, he is waking up and vomiting. Pregnant Deane?

While I just played into it, I will admit that this tangental bickering is lame. I mean, I'd much rather toss some support to KSKD, and without any easy answers, still show some sympathy for a friend.

It seems to me that he is living through some pretty difficult and complicated times. There is a whole lot of evidence that the system has failed us all -- "free market" myopia or not. I think we could all take a deep breath and consider our plight and the struggles of those around us.

Knowing what I do about your situation Deane, you could probably empathize with Doug -- could you not? In spite of any sarcasm politically, I really feel equally for both of you guys. How about we all play a little nicer? I'll try to wake up less snarky too.

By the way, Skeptical was right.

>>>"Well?

How is it different?"


It's extortion. Why should anyone have to pay to work?

We already do my friend:

Taxes.

Littlesongs, I will agree with you 110% that this health care thing is in a terrible mess with no solutions in sight. I don't care too much for the Medical Savings Account as a solution, I agree with the question above "what if you have nothing to save".

I won't waste space on this forum with all the horrible stories of people without health insurance, we all know plenty.

Health care Insurance is an area we need some of the best minds in the country to be working on, without any regard for political views. The situation is getting worse and worse.

On your other comments, you will never find me not disagreeing prominently with anyone with socialist leanings. And, you will never find me accepting unions. I've seen too much featherbedding with unions, too many disgusting things, too many corrupt and ineffective union leaders to ever think they are anything but extortion. They exist to protect incompetence.

I do appreciate the fact that your posts are well thought out, intelligent and well focused. But, I won't always agree with you.

Seems to me a lot of people pay to work.

They pay for transportation, clothing, special education / training / certification, etc...

Some jobs require specialized education. Often the employee will pay for this. Others require some dress standards. People often pay for this too, and it's a condition of employment. Tools and such are another common requirement of work. One must invest to perform the work.

In this, a union is no different.

Thanks Little! I'm not in a snarky mood this morning! Deane's post actually got me thinking about pay to work. Edit: On the situation, let's just say it too will pass. Either I'm headed for a lifestyle change or not. I'm lucky in that I do have work options. I've taken one that yield more income. It's not my life choice for employment, but then again it's not the end of the world either. Result is some stuff I really love will once again become a hobby activity, no biggie, no pressure.

So, if it's a lifestyle choice (downward) I've few worries. Used to have them, but have come to realize the things that really matter are up to ones own self. Over the last year or so, I've decided a whole lot of things really don't matter!

I'm actually 50/50 with unions. I've seen some real good and some real bad. I've often thought about what would happen if more technical people formed a union...

In my past, I worked in the skilled trades for a while. Some of these were union and some were not. Interestingly, the non-union situation was considarably worse... Pay to work seems to be an annoyance, but then wage offsets come into play.

In a non-union scenario there is a lot of low wage pressure. It takes considerable effort and some risk to actually make some money. (I had to go right to the edge, ready to walk repeatedly to get solid raises for worthy performance. That sucked.)

In the union scenario, the money comes easier, but there are political hassles... The wage offset more or less covers the dues and then some. But then there are strikes, etc...

Then let's talk about extortion. I've been employed where wage pressure was extremely high. Most everybody working also really needed their job. After working a long shift, producing a lot more per hour then some of the higher paid people around me (with equal or better quality too), I sure felt extorted. Same thing with being called into mandatory work times, denial of time off and a whole bunch of other selfish head games.

Like I wrote above, I essentially had to extort back to get my fair shake. Again, that's just not cool. If I'm adding clear value, I expect the favor to be returned in like kind. Funny too, they would bitch when production went back to normal levels. Give 'em a tease, then cut them off from the good stuff until they pay up. Nobody should have to do that.

With the influx of cheap and illegal labor, what is that other than extortion? Many people are being put to the test of work for less, or let somebody else take the work --somebody else subsided often by uncle sam.

I think many people don't like unions, but I've not yet seen the case made for eliminating them.

Deane, I can respect that, thank you. I won't always agree with you either, but on this point we do see completely eye to eye: Health savings accounts are a scam. KSKD brought up the most obvious problem: If one has nothing, what of nothing gets saved?

Looking at the recent attempt to gamble Social Security on the stock market, the huge local mistakes of SAIF and the current bait and switch approach to healthcare costs, why should we trust a "savings plan" at all?

(By the way folks, Bin Laden is still not in Iraq, if you wanted an update.)

The tie in to the stock market with social security is the only thing thqat can save social security. Ever since social security started, the dem's raided the trust fund.

Any one that has invested their money in the stock market and diversified, has always made money , over time.

Yes there are occasional drops, but it has always trended up.

I call bullshit. The first raids on the Social Security trust fund were made by Nixon. In his infinite wisdom, he also dumped the gold standard. Reagan and The Shrub did no better. Thanks to a bi-partisan Congressional effort, our country was in surplus when Clinton left office and much of the future Social Security problems had solutions. Then the latest wave of corporate raiders showed up, and spent us to the poor farm. I hope you are brushing up on Chinese.

Great points KSKD. I worked for folks who were seriously struggling -- to the point that all of us volunteered some hours to keep things going. This was a long established and popular local business, but with gas prices and property values going to the moon, the increases from our wholesalers and the lease became crippling.

I have been a Union member, and although they could do nothing to stop a massive lay-off, they did provide me with protection from many of the things I have experienced since those days. If you can imagine a scam that an employer will pull, you can bet you will meet an employer who will try it.

The secret is knowing the slimeballs when you sit down and being willing to live on toast rather than deal with a halfwit or thief. I am a lucky one, I have no kids. Other folks often have no choice but to take what is offered, and quick. The sad part is that once they are locked into the job, the chances they have to find a better one are limited.

If we had a single pay system, with only the minimum changes to make that happen, then people who are not covered would at least have a shot at actually paying, not getting collected on and having their credit destroyed.

I don't think a savings plan for all would make any sense. It would be exploited (gambled with essentially) just like all large pools of money get manupulated, borrowed against / from, etc...

I'm not looking to play up my scene either. I put it here, as I have others over time, as solid examples that are relevant. Truth is, I'm happy to be among people where I can put things like this down for consideration with no worries. Kudos to all of you for that! We are a great group, if somewhat snarky. (I think most of us enjoy getting toe to toe sometimes!) Sharing life experiences is very valuable. Often more valuable than other things are. In my life, the very absolute best learning has not come from schools, books or anything else, but people.

I also put it here because there are times when one is put to the test. Live by your words kind of thing. I don't make bad money now. IMHO, I've done well, despite lots of struggles in my 20's. On one hand, hard work, investment in ones own self, and being decent does pay off. I'm there and I really shouldn't be, all things considered. If I'm gonna have to deal (and clearly I am), then it makes zero sense not to share that; otherwise, it's for nothing.

The good news is that some self investment looks to pay off again as I can step up to greater income one more time. Perhaps the system does work in that fashion --it's working for me. Tough as hell, but it's working --I think. I'll know in a year. If that happens, well... Say I live with a friend, pay an attorney to work through all the issues and wait it out. Maybe build a house one piece at a time to keep the banks out of it. Or, say fuck it, get a mobile and just travel, live cheap and not worry about the bigger things. Can't take them along, why bother right? Lots of choices yet. If I don't own much, then I won't have to deal with much. Could happen. So, read this, learn from it, put it into context with the health care issues and no worries beyond that.

Looking back at my High School class, I do see some ugly scenes. The number of us that actually made it into professional work is quite small. Some of us did it my way, nose to the grindstone combined with aggressive self-improvement and learning where it makes sense, others took the higher education route, others had some entitlement coming their way. All told, perhaps a quarter of us are making headway over cost of living, family demands, etc....

(factor out the ugly health care bit on that statement)

For the rest, it's messy. I know those people and they are by and large good people, yet they are just pinned among a lot of costs rising and wage pressure always there as well. Some of them are living foolishly, but many of them are not.

To make a long story short, perhaps one half of us have essentially nothing to save and it's not their lifestyle choices doing it to them. It's simply the structure currently in play not giving a lot of slack. Savings accounts won't work for these people. Heck, mine didn't work for me, or my wife, because it's only meaningful in the context of health care coverage in general.

...or in a single pay scenario where monthly obligations can be balanced and met without interacting with all the billing departments essentially being a full time job. I suspect this arrangement would net more income over time than the current one does. Many would just bankrupt the whole thing. Now that's harder, but with that increased difficulty we didn't get relief in any other area, so a lot of people get screwed and stay really screwed! I don't think that helps us in general in that once there, a lot of people find getting out more or less impossible...

What's better for our economy in general, a bunch of people, working their lives to pay (often inflated) obligations, or those same people paying them off in a structured way, otherwise able to do their thing?

Single pay would also be a single point for regulation of costs in general. I'm not happy to learn an imaging procedure for megainsuranceco is billed at one rate (their standard low rate) and to me at another. I'm sure that happens because the billing intraction costs, risk of non-payment is higher, etc... All of that would go away with single pay.

In fact, one could leverage that single point of interaction to collect savings accounts, or provide some assistance, slush, risk mitigation to those providing services. Tack on a single percent to all transactions and put those dollars to use where they matter to all. Use them to assist those that might need it, invest in research, kick back to quality providers, education for those wanting to contribute to health care, even out administrative costs, etc... Plenty of good options there.

Lots of people want to continue private health care options. I'm actually among them, despite my current issues. Nobody, but the billing companies and those who service them, wants the complex multi-layer billing systems we currently have in play. We all want the competition and robust options in play here. There is no reason that cannot continue to happen.

Lose the billing madness and suddenly the whole system gets 20 percent cheaper right there, with no other changes required! It's hard to ignore that.

I know my Pharmicists personally. Great people. They run a small Pharmacy, mom 'n pop style. Their prices are not what Walgreens are, but their service and care is top notch. Want to know the number one factor for their cost delta? Billing. They can get the drugs cheap enough through co-ops and bulk buys when warranted. Most things would compete nicely if it were not for one of them having to become a full-time expert on the many plans, billing means and methods, despite having gone to school to be a Pharmicist!

Unlike the Walgreens, they know my name, will compound stuff for me if I want it, etc... And they keep my favorite candy on the shelf, for when I come in. I buy that every time, in return for essentially pass through pricing right now. (That's unlike the walgreens as well.) So I refer new people, work deals, get through it and know it's all because of the billing that it's even on the table. Ugh...

So that's where I'm at on the whole thing. Single pay is a big deal. The rest can be somewhat arbitrary, but we need that one huge. Don't care who does it, uncle sam, or some corporation, but it's gotta compare with Medicare in terms of overhead, or it's not done right.

Little: Yep. It's the kids that are the big lever for slimeball employers. If you don't have them, lots of options are on the table. I'm rapidly getting there too. When it comes, I'm likely to explore more than a few of those.

I may be a bit baised here being a Teamster, a former UFCW shop steward and contract negotation team member, and I will concede that unions come in all flavors, but most of the "bad" ones are just locals where thugs got elected into running the locals.

In recent decades however, the Teamsters have run those thugs out of office by taking over a local if needed. Sure, thuggery still exists, but those old days are long gone.

Keep in mind employees have a much BIGGER problems with EMPLOYERS that are thugs -- just talk to any ex-Enron empoyee. Then of course, there are the anti-employee companies like WalMart of the world. In ANY of these situations, YOURE OWN YOUR OWN! Good luck if you get shafted.

For the simple employee who wants to do his 40, go home and live a decent lo-stress life, a union job is the way to go.

My single experience with a union job: Courtesy Clerk at Freddies(UFCW 555!).

Part time, $5.25/hr (which .50 more than minimum at the time), zero benefits.

Didn't join, worked there for 6 months, heard zero from the union. (all of the other front-end clerks, who were hired at about the same time, did the same as me).

One day, out of the blue, some thug with a bad suit and missing teeth shows up and tells me that I have a week to pay to join *and* back dues, or I'd be out of a job.

Given that they were asking for more money than I would make in the time I had to pay, of course I was out of a job.

Personally, I don't see the point of paying union dues for a zero-benefit job.

As for healthcare, our system may be the best in the world, but only if you can afford to go. I know people *with* insurance who can't afford to go to the doctor.

The downside is it's also the most inefficient system in the world. Most of that is probably due to the rediculous amount of overhead involved in the multiple redundant billing systems.

I'd like to see a single payer system, along with severe cost cutting.

If I can fly to Thailand (where they have great hospitals, BTW) and have surgery done, along with a week or two of R&R, and still spend less than if I had the surgery done (probably without even 1 night in the hospital), something is severely wrong.

"The downside is it's also the most inefficient system in the world."

Agreed.

But guys, let's look at the two main culprits responsible for this mess, ambulance-chasing lawyers and HMO's. It's not the doctors.

Put a 1 or 2 million dollar cap on most malpractice and I don't really care what you do with the HMO's.

Problem largely solved. But good luck talking the trial lawyers into this.

Herb

TADC sez: "My single experience with a union job: Courtesy Clerk at Freddies(UFCW 555!). Part time, $5.25/hr (which .50 more than minimum at the time), zero benefits. Didn't join, worked there for 6 months, heard zero from the union. (all of the other front-end clerks, who were hired at about the same time, did the same as me)."

Heh, the union does you a favor and you laugh at them.

Freddies start most "iffies" out as a courtesy clerk. Turnover is high as slackers weed themselves out. Once it appears the employee will stick around (and the deadline expires for firing them at will) the union will demand dues before the benefits kick in.

(You didn't think you'd get top pay and full benefits on your first day did you?)

Currently the top union position at a PDX store is around 18.00 hr and ALL employees get full benefits (medical, dental, vision, retire) after a set period (I'm not sure what is now) at NO COST to you.

You made your own decision not to recieve benefits by quitting and/or by being FIRED. Fred Meyer is one of the easiest places to work and if you couldn't handle that, I'd hate to think what you're doing now to support a family with.

BTW, I can almost assure you no UFCW rep is a "thug." I know of reps who have "disappeared" for being almost "thug-like". Most likely you gave ATITUDE when you were informed it was time to pay up on something you already agreed to.

Have a nice day and hopefully right now at your current job you have fully-covered medical-dental-retirement, right????

You misunderstand... there were no benefits to be had. It was a job were you paid union dues and got *nothing* in return. The union didn't do dick for me.

You might argue that the union got me that 50 cents above minimum, but tell that to the back-end clerks who *were* paying dues and making flat minimum with no benefits. They hired us for more because they had a store to re-open, and they knew they would blow us out after 6 months, which is what they did. It was real easy work too, I especially liked the part when the manager would tell us to clock out and *then* finish up doing this and that. No overtime allowed!

If you think $18/hr is good money, I can see why you need a union.

And since you're curious, I do make a well-paid, full-bennies, non-union living in the computer industry. Funny how there's no unions in that business.

TADC sez: "The union didn't do dick for me."

Sure they did. Unionized grocers in town offer decent wages, medical benefits and retirement plans, don't they? SOMEBODY has been taking a stand time and time again all these years for this availability: Your ogranized brothers and sisters -- they are "the union" There's a word that describes you: Selfish.

"If you think $18/hr is good money, I can see why you need a union."

Its not, but I wonder how much you'd make if it wasn't a union shop? (see WalMart)

"I especially liked the part when the manager would tell us to clock out and *then* finish up doing this and that. No overtime allowed!"

There is a HUGE goverment-mandated sign in all lunch rooms about working "off the clock". If you didn't want to call the union about it, you could have reported it to the Wage and Hour division. Why didn't you? There was a solution and here you are bitching in here.

"I do make a well-paid, full-bennies, . . ."

Really? You don't pay ONE DIME for your health benefits? Can you name the company you work for so we can confirm this information?

Nobody says you have to work in a union shop. Many are happy elsewhere. But spreading BS about unions (or any other topic for that matter) is a no-no.

With any luck at all you'll never get laid off, downsized or bankrupted out of a job. Others prefer more job security.

I'm union, and know that I will never get rich at my job. But I know I have job protections and good benefits (my son fell and lacerated his spleen this spring, and spent almost a week at Doernbecher recovering. My out of pocket: less than $100).

I'd rather have that kind of security than $100K+ wages.

I know what you mean.

I am sitting a bit cozy in the middle of the Bush admin with TWO vested retirement accounts to my name with all the funds held in a TRUST that neither the company or the unions can touch. Its a peace of mind that money can't buy -- literally, cuz I didn't have to pay one penny in contribution.

I feel bad for many these days watching their pension funds get drained by the companies they work for, or cleaned out due to fraud (Enron) or mismanagement or bankruptcy. But then people make choices. Chosing to be "union-free" as many like to boast about often comes with consequences.

Yep. I'm living those right now. It's real people. If there were union positions for what I do, I would have worked with them for sure.

Once it happens though, you want the 100K / year wages, to leverage for the security again! It's an ugly circle, once started!

Skep- I couldn't tell you what unionized grocers offer these days, because I've moved on to a real job. What they *did* offer *me* was jack and squat - I could have done just as well working at Micky-Ds.

Call me selfish if you want, but the fact is that I was just a high school kid working part time to make a little pocket money, and the union sold us out. They didn't care about me (except to get my dues), and they didn't account for people like me when they negotiated the contract.

I can understand the desire for job security and benefits. Unfortunately, the sad fact in this day and age is that unionized companies are generally less competitive. A union isn't going to protect you when the company you work for goes out of business because it can't compete(in fact it will hasten that day).

I did contract work one summer at the shipyard down on Swan Island. There were a ton of union shipwrights, welders, pipefitters, etc making good money there... but there were a ton more sitting at home waiting for a call from the union. This is what happens when you break the law of supply and demand... The company sold the drydock (biggest on the west coast IIRC) to a Korean firm, and now most of those guys are sitting at home(or more likely working a much lower paid job).

Sooner or later those union jobs will be gone, so enjoy it while you're lucky enough to have it. The fact is that this is a free labor market, and if your skills are valuable to the company, they will try to keep you with benefits and pay. If your skills are such that you can be easily replaced, they won't have any incentive to pay you better other than a union contract.

"There is a HUGE goverment-mandated sign in all lunch rooms about working "off the clock". If you didn't want to call the union about it, you could have reported it to the Wage and Hour division. Why didn't you? There was a solution and here you are bitching in here. "
Sure, it's my fault now. As I mentioned before, I was in high school so I didn't know better.

"Really? You don't pay ONE DIME for your health benefits? Can you name the company you work for so we can confirm this information?"
Nope, and F you for asking. I pay a copay when I visit the doc, but I don't pay monthly for my insurance. Pretty standard stuff for skilled and educated workers in my experience.

"But spreading BS about unions (or any other topic for that matter) is a no-no."
Who's spreading BS (other than your ignorant and unfounded personal attacks on me)? I'm just sharing the facts about my union experience.

I'm not happy about good paying jobs going away, but the sad truth is that unions are an outdated concept that are, in the modern world, ultimately destructive to those who they seek to help(see the US auto industry).

Tadc, it's cyclical. Think about what caused the rise of unions in the first place, and you'll realize that we are headed toward those conditions again.

We also need to remember that the United States is the worlds largest consumer nation. If unions disappear so do solid middle class wages. If we cannot afford to buy anything here in the U.S. then all those low wage workers overseas have no one to build their product for. Sellers can only sell if there are buyers, and buyers are people earning a living wage. Unions have always supported a living wage, and have in fact been the only consistent supporter of them (only Henry Ford's $5 day comes to mind as an example of corporate salary largess, but to the same end - Ford needed to create consumers for the product he was making).

Unions may be in a slump, but they are also experiencing a sort of rebirth. The SEIU is gsining members and clout, and it will be interesting to see what happens with them over the next few years.

tadc, you're entitled to your opinions, I need not debunk your views on unions. You've pretty made it clear that you're just gonna be selfish, so I'll let it go except to make two notes about something you said:

"They didn't care about me (except to get my dues), and they didn't account for people like me when they negotiated the contract."

So, automatically blame it on the union huh? There was another party there too. I'm quite sure you've never sat in on a negotation session. If you had, you wouldn't have made that comment.

Besides, you've pretty much made it clear why NEITHER the company or the union should give a damn about people like you, because as far as you're concerned, its ME, ME, ME.

Freddies' and Local 555's unwritten agreement of weeding out people like you before benefits are given is working just fine.

tdac also sez: "but I don't pay monthly for my insurance. Pretty standard stuff for skilled and educated workers in my experience."

Oh really? Everybody in your industry doesn't pay monthly for benefits??? I find that hard to believe (we're talking full med/dental/vision). Many of us would like to know of this industry you're in that STILL offers full medical. Care to mention a name so we can confirm this. I know a heck of a lot of hard working families that would like to put an application in.

Ed- I see what you're saying about things heading that way again, but I'll have to disagree on the outcome. There is pretty much no comparison between the conditions typified in "The Jungle" and what your typical WalMart employee sees. Are they treated and paid well? Not really.. but neither are their lives or health put in danger every day, nor are they used up and discarded with no sort of safety net as in the bad old days.

I also agree with your point about how we need to sustain a living wage in order to continue to consume overseas-made product, but I don't agree that unions are the answer. Truth is, from my point of view, unions *already have* disappeared (or at least become largely irrelevant).

I know it's possible to make good money without the help of a union, because I *do* make good money, and unions are almost unheard of in this business. I don't mean to denigrate anyone, but the cold hard truth seems to indicate that in a free market economy, if your job doesn't pay a living wage, your work isn't *worth* a living wage in that economy. Sure you can artificially constrain the market with laws or union contracts, but that just diverts the pressure elsewhere (for example, overpaid auto workers cause overpriced/underfeatured cars, which cause unprofitable automakers, which causes unemployed autoworkers). I'm not saying I like it, but thats what you get with a free market.

Skep-"You've pretty made it clear that you're just gonna be selfish"
You're making a big ASSumption about my motivations at the time, and we all know how that makes you look.... the fact is you don't know shit about me or my motivations.

Let me see if I read you correctly. You're position is that the burden for supporting the union (and the working families of America) falls on the shoulders of part-time high school kids working as bagboys. You think it's selfish that I would want to keep the near-minimum wage I earned, rather than subsidize the benefits I'm not entitled to?

Automatically blame the union? Who else should I blame? They negotiated the contract! I'm sure Freddies would have been happy to give me minimum wage with no benefits without bothering with all that union bullshit, so who else should I blame? You're saying Fred Meyer put the screws to the union, and they had to sell someone out, so they had no choice but to tell the low man on the totem pole to bend over?

Answer me this: if the union wanted me to be a dues-paying long-term employee, would they have, A) sent a gentle reminder notice/call after 30 days, reminding me to send in the paperwork, or B) done nothing for 6 months, and then approached me with terms that I couldn't possibly fulfill, pretty much guaranteeing that I wouldn't be able to continue working?

"Besides, you've pretty much made it clear why NEITHER the company or the union should give a damn about people like you, because as far as you're concerned, its ME, ME, ME.

Freddies' and Local 555's unwritten agreement of weeding out people like you before benefits are given is working just fine. "

Yes, of course neither Freddies nor the union want intelligent, thinking folk. They only want halfwits who will do what their told for peanuts?

In all honesty, I'm glad they helped steer me away from a deadend career of mindless drudgery. I much prefer to be paid for using my brain instead of my back.

I already told you what industry I'm in, but I'll tell you again... the *computer* industry. I never said that nobody in the industry pays for benefits(if I had dependents on my plan I'd pay for them), but I don't pay for mine. If you find it so hard to believe, maybe you should be in a different line of work.

By the way, we're hiring.

I have many friends who work for Powell's books. I observed the process for years as they moved toward a Union shop. During the last round of negotiations, Powell spent more on lawyers than he would have spent accepting the reasonable proposals of Local 5.

Despite his well-crafted persona, Michael Powell is a conservative real estate mogul with little or no interest in literature beyond profit. It did, and does, his many employees a world of good to be members of the ILWU. Without going into many ugly details, suffice to say, it is a far better workplace now than it ever was before.

Thuggery, whether union or otherwise, is inexcusable.

I don't begrudge a union's right to exist. But it's a free country and a free market economy. If one is mad at 'the man,' then another possibility is that maybe you're not so hot yourself.

Fed up with an employer? You have options. Change employers, change jobs, get more education, get retraining or start your own business...and stop complaining about how others, who take a great deal of risk whilst trying to make a go of it, run theirs.

Herb

Hey, those people running businesses need people to actually build their wealth. It is raw labor that builds wealth, not investors.

Also, said business is supposed to add value to the society from which it feeds.

If doing business is a net loss to our society perhaps we really don't need that particular business.

There is a strong case for people wanting to organize to push back for solid working conditions and wages. Not every job is available everywhere, not every employer is a good employer, not every industry delivers the same profit, etc...

This is not thuggery, only competition.

You think employers don't get together and think of ways to keep wages low and profits high? Of course they do. I would, as would nearly anyone I know.

If it's just business, then the business of selling your services plays by the same hard rules, and that's the point many don't get.

Abuse the pool of workers and they will respond by not working so hard, organizing, working elsewhere, etc...

I've worked in a lot of places where I had to go print out the law, read it to them, then exercise my rights forcefully. That's thuggery, but it's just a bit more slick.

The idea that people can organize to provide labor is similar to the one that allows them to pool wealth and form corporations, etc...

If we allow one, then we should allow the other.

Oh, and on the matter of free markets... There are no free markets. Governments create markets. They set the rules of engagement. Here, the government is for the people and by the people, meaning it needs to serve the people --all the people.

Since we hosed things up and declared that corporations are essentially people, we need to extend and balance the rights and responsibilities of all PEOPLE as equally as we can, or we are discriminating against people and that's not ok.

Running a business is done to make money. It's done to make as much money as is possible. Selling labor is done to make money, as much money as is possible.

There is one difference between corporations and people. People need to eat, have a life, etc... Corporations don't. Also corporations need people to build wealth with. Labor is at the bottom of every pile of money everywhere.

There is no reason why those piles cannot be created while the people helping to build them get a fair shake. ---a wage worth working for. If you cannot do business in a manner that pays a worthy wage, perhaps we just don't need that kind of business any more.

---or maybe we need to think about the rules of engagement just a bit more so everybody gets along.

If you've got workers organizing, generally you've got employers applying too much downward wage pressure, exploiting their market conditions, etc...

Either let them organize and let all parties work it out, or regulate, or bring competition into play. I don't care, but one of those options must be on the table, or we just don't need that particular employer.

There simply is enough wealth being created for everybody to get along. It does not have to be by much, but it does have to be viable, or it's just not worth doing for anybody but the employer.

Herb writes:
I don't begrudge a union's right to exist. But it's a free country and a free market economy. If one is mad at 'the man,' then another possibility is that maybe you're not so hot yourself.

Oh please, the biggest dipshits in the country run american corporations, THAT"S why they come off looking so goddamn stupid. You want to get to the top, get under that bosses desk and start sucking. It's the only way.

You want to take the risk, then go right ahead.

No one is keeping you from starting your own business. Immigrants from other companies make a go of it and before long they're employing non-immigrants.

C'mon. If you're such an expert on how a business should operate, go for it. Let's see how well YOU do. Otherwise, it's little more than belly-aching.

Herb

Fred Meyer is hiring too. No high school diploma required. You, too, can eventually be a store director and make $120,000 by starting out as a courtesty clerk.

(But you've got to survive the weeding out process.)

(ps: the unions have been declared "dead" since the 70's. but if the GOP loses an election, its always those damn union lobby groups that gets blamed first. Just ask Kevin Mannix.)

Skeptical, where my wife works they pick up the whole tab for the insurance for the whole family.

That is a huge benefit! We had our insurance through my employer and it was close to $300 per month without dental.

We do have the standard co-pay and deductibles but they pay the whole premium.

I jokingly say that my wife got a job and I got a $300 a month raise! I canceled my insurance when her's kicked in!

I suspect in the near future full medical top many a job seeker's lists forcing many companies to dial back the cuts to retain existing employees or attract new ones. Your share of the medical at your job amounted to a $2 cut per hour.


To continue health coverage via COBRA from an existing job is about $650/mo for an individual. I've no calculator here but it would take about $4 per hour worked before taxes to make that monthly insurance bill (for 1 person).

If you've a family and want dental, it could be $5 to 6 per hour making a UFCW employer having full benefits (freddies, safeway, albertsons et al) attractive to at least one spouse.

Bonus info: Stay the hell out of Albertsons, they're a crappy employer. Safeway and Freddies are more employee-friendly. However, SuperValu just bought Albertsons so that may change. Maybe. A culture of crappy employee treatment is hard to change.