I know little about him, but maybe Mitt is the guy. This oughta give Mrs. Merkin nightmares:

http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/04/02/news/camp.php

Once republicans close ranks, Hillary will have her hands full.

Herb

As long as his views are NOT so neo-CONish I'm all over it! If he starts talking about FISCAL RESPONSIBILITY and balanced budgets and how to get our kids home without leaving Iraq high and dry then I will listen!
If the neo-CONer comes out in the Republicans running then Hillary will kick some ass! Which will NOT make me happy!
If Mitt swings neo-CON he is done! Follow DUHbya and get swept under the rug come election time.

I was raised in a church that may have embraced the GOP, but would never ever dream of endorsing a Catholic, let alone a Mormon for an elected office. A small amount of acceptance has been fostered based on a few shared ideals, but the reality of running a candidate with a specific view of God on his resume, is not a sound one.

This is interesting. It could shatter the delicate coalition of congregations that currently seem unified behind the Republicans. Many Protestants, including Evangelicals, are naturally quite xenophobic. Church members are distrustful, and are taught that others who do not believe in God the exact same way, will perish in a lake of fire.

While many may be willing to embrace another member of a similar faith, the history of the Mormon church, combined with public perception, forgive the pun, is one large cross to bear. In reality, he is still a somewhat unknown candidate asking for votes.

Herb would endorse a Morman???

"...how to get our kids home without leaving Iraq high and dry..."

The alternative to helping innocent Iraqis remain 'high and dry' is to allow them to be slaughtered.

Assisting Iraqis is hardly a neo-con concern. Rather, protecting the innocent is the decent thing to do.

Herb

Herb said>>>>
The alternative to helping innocent Iraqis remain 'high and dry' is to allow them to be slaughtered.

Like when so many were killed during "Shock and Awe???"
Protecting the INNOCENT??? How about some of the INNOCENT that are being SLAUGHTERED in Africa? NO OIL there huh??? How about all the INNOCENTS in North Korea that are being INPRISONED for no reason???? What about INNOCENT CHILDREN in America that don't have Health coverage while DUHbya and Co. spend till OUR eyes bleed??? How are YOU going to pay for that Herb???
INNOCENTS????
SODOMY INSANE IS DEAD!! NO MORE RAPE ROOMS! NO MORE MASS KILLINGS!!!!
Just OUR kids getting killed EVERY GD DAY!
Decent???
Pick up a gun Herb, and fight! That's Decent!

Herb, I really doubt HRC has her undies in a bundle over Romney, she's still $13 million ahead. However, his LDS Cult does have bottomless pockets.

"Democrat Clinton swelled her campaign war chest by transferring an additional $10 million from her Senate fundraising account, aides said. That brought her to $36 million. The New York senator's total included $4.2 million raised through the Internet."

And actually, I don't really care about this issue, other than the obscene amount of money. It's gross on both sides. You could combine it all and fix a lot of crap in the US, if not the world.

It's like Oprah. I just wish they would just shut up and fix stuff with their own money.

As I said, I know very little about Mitt Romney, but if the left dislikes him, he's worth a second look.

And while I would prefer to vote for a candidate who observes orthodox Christianity, I would vote for Mitt Romney...or Mr. Lieberman for that matter-who is Jewish, were either to run against Mrs. Clinton.

That's just one of the problems democrats will have with Mrs. Clinton. She is so polarizing that her candidacy is already bringing republicans, independents and conservative democrats out of the woodwork to help defeat her.

Besides, it can be argued that conservatives have significantly more in common with the political views of folks like Michael Medved, Michael Savage, Dennis Prager, Mark Levin and Mr. Lieberman, who I believe are all Jewish, than Mrs. Clinton, a self-professed Methodist.

Herb

Herb said - "As I said, I know very little about Mitt Romney, but if the left dislikes him, he's worth a second look."

I was going to take issue with that - until I realized that I do the same thing with Bush and I would be a hypocrite. I mean, every time Bush has what he thinks is a good idea or an accurate collection of information or takes the time to publically praise someone in his cabinet, you can just set your watch to it not going well.

" Brownie, you're doing a heck of a job."

" We'll be greeted as liberators."

" Iraq will be a comma."

" Gonzalez is honorable and honest."

I don't know what the opposite of The Midas Touch is - but Bush has it.

Just like Bush claimed that his faith would not get in the way of making decisions for America, Romney will say the same.

I believe neither of them. And with good reason. A Mormon President would not represent me very well. They believe things that are too man-made and have what I view as a skewed version of what salvation is. ( THAT is a big deal to me. Mormonism, to me, is way too close to being a cult for my taste ). I would rather have an agnostic who let's me live my own faith in private and doesn't impose his religious views on me or anyone else.

"...doesn't impose his religious views on me.."

You're talking about libertarian lawlessness, my friend, whether it's turning a blind eye to prostitution, drugs, out-of-wedlock births, gambling, pornography and many other societal evils.

Whether you or I agree or not, it doesn't matter: our culture is indeed decaying and fast.

Go ahead and shrug your shoulders, but don't point fingers at those who want to reverse the downward spiral.

Herb

Actually our culture is changing, and a growing slice of it is owned and cultivated by large corporations.

The bad changes need to be addressed for sure. But, trotting out a bunch of dogma is not the most solid approach.

Reasoned, rational changes and or incentives to build on the good things is what we need. The inspiration for these will come from those of us with convictions that run strong period.

The law checks us in this way, thus forcing a debate on what should and should not be considered bad culture and limits our solutions so that our freedom is preserved as much as is possible.

Unfortuneately Herb sometimes things have to hit rock bottom before any change will happen. Hope not in this case but could get worse before it gets any better if ever at all.
Sorry to be the Skeptic but as population keeps growing common courtesy and morality go out the window.

Herb said - "You're talking about libertarian lawlessness, my friend, whether it's turning a blind eye to prostitution, drugs, out-of-wedlock births, gambling, pornography and many other societal evils."

Perhaps I am. It doesn't FEEL like I am - but it's possible. I would agree that elements of our culture are decaying - but as a whole, I do not believe that the lack of religious power and influence is to blame. We have PLENTY of religious power and influence and it's still not working. It never will to the degree you hope for. Never.

I have hope. I have ideas of what gives me MORE hope. A Mormon President gives me less hope than someone who has no faith. I don't need someone to mandate things for me. I don't need MY hand held. I don't. I need someone who is smart and can bring people together better than a person who has a strong faith based batch of beliefs. It will get in the way.

Vote to wear magic underwear all you want and claim it's going to help. Vote that you get into heaven through works. Vote for false prophets. Go ahead. I disagree and will vote accordingly if given the chance.

"Vote to wear magic underwear all you want and claim it's going to help. Vote that you get into heaven through works. Vote for false prophets."

Sounds like you have more than a passing familiarity with theological topics.

As I said, I would prefer an orthodox Christian and have my own issues with mormonism.

However, just as with the left, there is a common cause among conservatives. Labor union members and PETA members seem to get along just fine in the democrat party, although they disagree on key issues. That's what will happen in the republican party if Mrs. Clinton is the nominee.

Herb

"Mrs. Clinton, a self-professed Methodist"

What the heck does THAT mean? Wouldn that make Michael Medved, Michael Savage, Dennis Prager, Mark Levin and Mr. Lieberman all "self-professed" Jews?

I assume you're insinuating something, but who made YOU the judge of what beliefs people affiliate themselves with and how good of a Jew or Methodist they are? Hypocrite.

"As I said, I ... have my own issues with mormonism." Oh really? When did you say that?



Mrs. Self-professed DeadHead & Episcopalian

"She is so polarizing that her candidacy is already bringing republicans, independents and conservative democrats out of the woodwork to help defeat her."

Say what you want, she's still bringing in more money than anybody else. That said, the only way I will vote for her is if she is the lesser of the 2 evils. For me, that's what this country has come to in most elections. And that sucks.

Wouldn't it be nice to actually vote for someone you admire and think would make a difference?

>>>"Wouldn't it be nice to actually vote for someone you admire and think would make a difference?"

Who might that be?

I have no idea. Maybe somebody on the "Fantasy Candidate" thread? Charo?

I can't think of anyone at the moment that I was proud to vote for.

Can anyone else name someone they got excited about voting for? And no, "American Idol" votes don't count.

I think we should have "Survivor 2008 DC" Put all the candidates on a reality show and the winner gets to be president! I can think of some really nasty challenges for them to compete in....HA!

Herb, I'm loving your obsession with Hilary, but don't get too excited. She will not even win the nomination. You read it here. Too polarizing is correct, even within the Demo party ranks. For what reasons I can't tell, but it's the reality nonetheless.

As far as Romney goes, I just can't imagine the Evangelicals and born-agains that supported Bush would ever vote for a Mormon. So where does all that support go?

Probably McCain or Giuliani.

And my guess is that if Mitt Romney were tapped as a VP candidate, voters would have less of an issue with him...plus, his deep pockets and fundraising ability helps neutralize big labour money.

Herb

...assuming big labour money is a bad thing for you.

Mormon, Catholic, Jewish ... if the man can lead, does it really matter?

I know little about Romney as well, other than he's an effective campaigner and fundraiser. I imagine that he can't be TOO far to the right if he was elected governor in a state as liberal as Massachusetts.

"Mormon, Catholic, Jewish ... if the man can lead, does it really matter?"

Good question.

Yes. It matters. Because no matter how hard a politician tries to be all things to all people during the campaign, once they get into office, they feel it was the will of God that they are there and then they start saying things like " God told me to..." then we are quickly fucked.

George W. Bush has led us by that example, and yes, we are indeed worse for it because of it.

JFK was Catholic, and there was so much hubbub about his religion. It's safe to say that he didn't lead with the "God told me to ... " mentality. Some leaders are able to lead on their own two feet and think for themselves, not do what "God told me to ... ". I personally am not a fan of the Mormon faith myself but if Mitt Romney is who I feel is the best candidate for leading this country, I'll vote for him regardless of his religion.

Amen.

Herb

Agreed with Warner.

She's not electable at this time, in this culture, with her deeds on record. It is what it is.

The biggie is just how long it will take and how many dollars get wasted coming to that realization.

Edwards remains my primary fave. Obama is popular and intriguing, but has already let loose with a gaff or two... Not the end of the world, but could be a sign of not being ready enough.

I'll second Brian's statement.

"No religious test, shall be...."

That was good enough to form a nation, should be good enough now.

HerrB, I'm still waiting for you to answer my 2 above questions please. (9:42 AM)

"...I'm still waiting for you to answer my 2 above questions please."

Vile and vicious epithets are thrown at Mr. Bush on this board, and I'm a bad guy for commenting that Mrs. Clinton is a 'self-described Methodist?'
Get real. Given her affectation for various phoney accents, there's reason to question her sincerity.

And as I have said on this thread, I would prefer a candidate with orthodox Christian [i.e.,non-mormon] religious beliefs.

Herb

Herb- Your idea of Romney as VP is, unfortunately, a good one. That would be fairly powerful. Nice catch there, I didn't think of that.

Now, the evangelicals going for Giuliani the adulterer, that's a different kettle.

Again, the Artful Dodge(r).

And telling me to "get real"? About what? Nice counter-point/dodge attempt. As I have said, I don't like HRC at all, but I'd vote for her over Romney.

And what, pray tell, does a "phoney (sic) accent" have to do with her religion? Since I've never listened to her speak, I have no idea what accents you've listened to and what you're talking about. British? Pakistani? Iranian? Texan?

I'd still like to know what "issues" you have with the LDS, but you'll dodge that one too, I'm sure.

"Herb- Your idea of Romney as VP is, unfortunately, a good one."

Thanks, Warner. I just thought of it today.

Mrs. Merkin-Mrs. Clinton's phoney accent has been all over the news during the past few weeks. I'm also glad to discuss my issues with mormonism, but given your hostile criticism of faith, I doubt you actually care.

Herb

My "hostile criticism of faith"?

Did I miss something here? What? Where?

You're getting desperate Herrb.

Apparently I'm also missing both "the all over the news" accounts of HRC's accent and how it ties into her religion. Enlighten me, please, someone.

"I'm also glad to discuss my issues with mormonism".

OK, go ahead, I'm all eyes, and yes, I actually DO care what those issues are. I'm doubting that they're all that different from mine, actually.

Here's a nit-pick for Herb, and others:

When discussing different faiths, I'v always thought it respectful to capitalize the name. I notice with you that Christian is always capitalized, but Mormon is not. I'm sure it's intentional on your part, but I don't believe it is respectful.

And I'm for anything that increases the level of mutual respect on this forum.

Edselehr- Sometimes I get my chat room type mixed up with my message board type. In chat room, for speed, I never capitalize anything so I can get my thoughts out faster.

Message board it can be a mixed bag. I know we all want to read well written responses with proper punctuation and grammar but alas here in cyberspace it's often the rule and not the exception. And I for one am as guilty as anyone for poor typing etiquette.

It's not a lack of respect just being lazy.

Raises lazy hand as well!

Fine. For the record, let it be noted that I was asked for my opinion on a religious issue. I also realize that many on this board don't care at all.

Mormonism is a cult. And Edselehr, you are correct that I intentionally don't capitalize the word mormon unless it's at the beginning of a sentence, just as I don't always capitalize the names of other cults.

Mormons are often fine people. It's important to distinguish between a belief system and those who practice that belief system. Yet among adherents of wayward sects, however well-meaning, the end result is often insidious.

It was pointed out earlier that mormonism is a works-based religion. This alone is a major concern to Christians who understand that while good works are fine, it is not by our works alone, but through the Grace of God that mankind has been forgiven for our sins.

The surest way to trip up a mormon is to ask:

1. How many gods are there
and
2. Will you become one?

That's because to the believing mormon man, he will become the god of his own planet with plenty of wives. To the mormon, therefore, there are many gods and he will become one. This is blasphemy according to the tenets of orthodox Christianity and one of the issues that causes mormonism to not even be considered a monotheistic religion. And to make matters worse, to the believing mormon, Jesus and satan are brothers.

Mormons have also added to the Holy Bible with their own book of mormon. We are explicitly told not to add or take away from God's Word.

That's a thumbnail sketch. Do I hate mormons? Absolutely not. We're told to love everyone and everyone falls short, except thanks to the Grace of God.

Herb

he will become the god of his own planet with plenty of wives.

And this is wrong how?!?

A good question.

That was one of satan's biggest follies.

His pride destroyed him. Even though satan was among the most beautiful of Angels, it still wasn't enough. He wanted to make himself like God and disobeyed Him.

Herb

Herb- Gotta hand it to you nice job on the distinction between Christianity and those who are Mormon. (I will capitalize it just to be a stinker).

Having long time Mormon friends including a brother in law, what keeps our relationships intact is the fact we don't discuss religion. We respect each other's beliefs but simply don't go to the core of our differences which is fine with everyone. There are enough battles going on this world no need to add more.

An old but wonderful saying that is truly my mantra.."there but for the Grace of God go I."

Now to keep on topic, when a politician comes into power they do bring everything that has made them who they are and how they believe. I think the line does get blurred for many of faith (any faith), once they taste political power and that once in Washington sometimes those blurry lines will trip you up. No one is excluded.

I don't know much about Mitt but I guess it's time to do some reading.

"Herb- Gotta hand it to you nice job on the distinction between Christianity and those who are Mormon."

Thanks, Chris. I tried not to be too ham-fisted, but instead to rely on the plain facts.

I also have mormon friends. They are fine people.

I see this issue much like that of the old soviet union. The Russian people are lovely and would give you the shirt off their back. It was the insidious and corrupt system governing them that stank. You are correct...there but by the Grace of God go I, also.

Herb

Thanks, Herb. As I said, we are not far apart on this issue and we come pretty close to the same conclusion. (Still wondering about your HRC Methodist/accent tie-in comments though.)

As far as capitalization of that "m" word, no thanks, I prefer not to. It's my little payback of having both "The Salt Lake Tribune" and "The Deseret News" Newspapers always refer to it just as "The Church", as if there were no other religions or churches in the entire state. I got so sick of that. I loved it when Meier & Frank/May Co. took over ZCMI (Zion's Cooperative Mercantile Institution) and started showing actual women in brassieres in their ads, I could practically hear the old-timers cries all the way up the canyon "OH MY HECK! What has the world come to?"

I made it a point to always shop at Nordstrom on Sundays, and not just because it was the only store open. Jeez, you can't even get a Crown Burger™ on Sunday, and they're Greek!

Thanks, Mrs. Merkin.

"...Still wondering about your HRC Methodist/accent tie-in comments..."

http://youtube.com/watch?v=YaDQ1vIuvZI

Anyone who panders this much is so over the top as to be suspect in what she says about herself.

Herb

Hillary is a little to much two-sided for my liking!

She's like a FOTM CBS station. FLIP FLOP!

http://youtube.com/watch?v=2N8JDMX6qFg

Speaking of two-sided DT ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_views_of_Mitt_Romney

Not knowing much about Romney, I've done some poking around on various sites to see where he stands on key issues.

His flip-flopping makes Hillary's look like nothing. He sends a letter to the Log Cabin Republicans stating that he would be more pro-gay rights than Ted Kennedy while running against Kennedy for the Senate, and now he has tried to push through legislation barring same-sex marriages in Massachusetts, bypassing the state's Supreme Court.

He says in a debate at one point that he feels that abortion should be safe and legal, and now he's pro-life.

Which is it, Mr. Romney?

Shit or get off the pot. Paint me unimpressed.

Doonesbury has been all over Mitt and his flip- floppin' ways this week. Skewered!

I asked my parents what they thought of his chances. Their response: No way.

My mom pointed out that he is the only R- contender who has only been married once, though.

It's Mitt the pretender, he didn't do anything for Mass. and got out just in time hoping that the rest of the country would never find out how he screwed up.

If he had run for reelection in Mass. Patrick would have walked all over him. So he didn't run for reelection. Both Governor K's from here could beat Mitt.

He's not my first choice, but I love how the left is so terrified of Mr. Romney. The guy can't be all bad.

Herb

Terrified? Hardly.

He will not be selected, let alone elected.

The one the left is truly afraid of is Mr Thompson.

You mean, those other people right? The bad ones, that we need to keep under control?

Heh.

Nwokie said - " The one the left is truly afraid of is Mr Thompson."

Really? That's news to me.

Name one person who is " truly afraid " of Mr. Thompson. Just one person. By name.

Now explain, in as much detail as your mind can handle, why are they afraid of Mr. Thompson.

Finally, who IS Mr. Thompson?

Former Senator Fred Thompson, he can truly run as the "Law and Order" candidate.

Or is that the "Lie and Order" Candidate? He's so full of himself since he was first in the Sissy Spacek Movie.

Ok Nwokie - Fred Thompson is who you are talking about.

Now can you name one person that is " truly afraid" of him?

Initially I was very excited about the fresh blood Fred Thompson might bring to the campaign, but my support has just as quickly waned. I understand the former senator was a big backer of the disastrous, and what I consider un-Constitutional, McLame/Foolsgold Incumbent Protection Act, I mean Campaign Finance Reform Act. I'm still looking for a Republican candidate I can support.

But, He stuck to his promise of 2 terms.
And a lot of people cant seperate reality from fiction, and will see him as that Hared noded DA, that put so many really bad guys away.

LOL!!!!

I think we can let Fred's voting record speak for itself:

http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/members/t000457/

OK Nwokie - I'll take that as a " No. " from you.

"And a lot of people cant seperate reality from fiction, and will see him as that Hared noded DA, that put so many really bad guys away."

( Assuming I am correcting your typos in my head correctly ) So? Therefore...what? How does that make him someone that the left is " truly afraid " of? You are making no sense to me. Please explain or support or at least define.

cj sez: "Ok Nwokie - Fred Thompson is who you are talking about. Now can you name one person that is "truly afraid" of him?"

Sam Waterson?

Bwaahhahahahaha!